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[DCKing]

If Nintendo's willing to only have a couple hundred thousand Wii Us made every month, sure, why not?

Why do you think I used the words "get near"?

Also: midrange GPUs (which is what we're talking about here) are likely not as low-yield as high end mobile chips are.

 

[Azure J]

yes

All these comments from developers mentioning digital download games or similar things and their possibilities on coming to Wii U makes me wonder if they're already getting advanced notice on what to expect for the distribution channels and now I want someone to leak the fuck out of said plans.

 

[ecosse_011172]

Call of Duty U with only IR aiming. Wii U Exclusive. Sets place in the future.

Bam.

Also, the Wii U isn't using a laptop GPU...

It'll obviously be closer to the Mobile GPUs than Desktop ones due to the often discussed power/thermal/size requirements.

 

[BurntPork]

Why do you think I used the words "get near"?

Also: midrange GPUs (which is what we're talking about here) are likely not as low-yield as high end mobile chips are.

They are, but I still think they'd be limited to well under 1 million per month.

But anyway, the Wikipedia RHD7000 specs are false.

It'll obviously be closer to the Mobile GPUs than Desktop ones due to the often discussed power/thermal/size requirements.

Maybe, maybe not. Those mobile chips are more expensive due to lower yields.

 

[Log4Girlz]

The GPU is going to have a mish-mash of features, wish I knew what they're throwing in there. I was some fine tesselation.

 

[MadOdorMachine]

I do wonder if Nintendo will release a wireless Classic Controller Pro for the WiiU that isn't dependant on the Wii controller

It makes sense if they're going after hardcore gamers and taking into consideration the tablet has a traditional control set-up. However, they plan on keeping motion + for Zelda despite the new controller so we don't know if they're focusing on traditional controls or motion controls. Either way, it would be nice if the CC Pro didn't require the Wiimote.

 

[jonezer4]

I was some fine tesselation.

You were back in your prime. But, a few years, a few pounds, and a few vertex operations later... now you're just adequate tesselation.

 

[AceBandage]

You were back in your prime. But, a few years, a few pounds, and a few vertex operations later... now you're just adequate tesselation.

Oh god. Made me laugh way harder than it should have.

 

[MDX]

Any possibility Nintendo might use something like Reduced Latency DRAM (RLDRAM)?

 

[Thraktor]

There's no need to use 1T-SRAM if they want backwards compatibility, because if they have 32MB of EDRAM they can use that to emulate the low latency of 1T-SRAM as well.

I never found that MoSys rumour too convincing. Could anybody link to the source? lherre felt that it was most probable there was going to be 1 GB in the final unit so that probably meant there wasn't a significant amount of 1T-SRAM (or any other stuff) in the devkit. Wonder if that's going to stay the same.

Sorry, I thought that Mosys comment was from an actual investor conference call. The real source (a post by some guy on the Beyond3D forum) is quite a lot less reliable. I can't say I can speak for the characteristics of modern eDRAM vs 1T-SRAM characteristics, but I'm a little weary of rumours regarding the use of eDRAM in the console, given the potential confusion between the use of eDRAM as a cache in the CPU (confirmed by IBM) and use of eDRAM as a framebuffer in the GPU (as yet unconfirmed but likely).

I should also clarify that I was merely speculating about the use of the framebuffer as VRAM in Wii mode, I don't know whether it's technically possible (probably not).

From what I've read, the PS3 CPU can actually access the VRAM. It's just not very fast, but it would be quite an expense to make it work fast.

Yeah, it's obviously simpler from a technical perspective to have a single unified memory pool. Not impossible to have two, though, especially if the CPU is designed specifically for the purpose (which CELL wasn't).

There's no such thing as 100% reliability in wireless technology. Nintendo doesn't even need it. When transmitting what is video for practical purposes, odd pixels, out-of-order frames or lost data are gone from the screen within a blink of an eye. Nintendo may have high standards, but it doesn't take 100% reliability for this to work. Far from it, even.

The WirelessHD standard pretty much defines everything that's needed for Nintendo here. It includes a 7 GHz band (that doesn't interfere with other common radios), a video codec (although Nintendo may well specialize that) and it even goes for 10 meters without a line of sight. The specification was finalized in 2008, so that's why I called it a solved problem.

Wireless equipment manufacturers always, always quote best-case scenarios for performance. It's basically the first rule of wireless telecommunications. Companies and standards setting bodies* use the results of lab experiments, or even theoretical calculations, to advertise their technologies because it generally sounds a hell of a lot better than the truth. You know why you haven't seen a load of TVs, set-top boxes with technologies like WirelessHD and WHDI in the real world? Because the small number of devices released with the technologies don't work nearly as well as advertised. I know people who work in the high-end AV industry, and it's pretty well accepted that these technologies are unreliable, they don't work over the distances advertised, and given the very short ranges over which they do work, there's zero advantage over just using a cable. This corresponds pretty much exactly to what I'd expect from what I've been taught in telecommunications and information theory. There also remains the considerable issue that, even if they did work perfectly, these standards are for transmission between static devices, which is a completely different thing to transmission to a moving object like a Wii U pad. All other things being equal, you can expect a wireless transmission to a moving device to be an order of magnitude less reliable than one to a static device.

To illustrate what I meant by 100% reliability, let's do a few calculations. Assume that Nintendo is using a simple wireless technology to transfer the video to the Wii U pad with a bit error rate of 1 in 1000, that is "99.9% reliability" (this is actually absurdly optimistic in real world terms, but what the hell). We'll also assume that the bit errors are evenly distributed (also highly optimistic). A single frame for the Wii U pad will be 854x480x24bits, ie 9,838,080 bits. We can therefore estimate that there will be 9,838 bit errors per frame. I'll be generous once again in assuming that people will only notice changes in the two most significant bits of a colour component of any given pixel. A change to the most significant bit would be the change from bright red to dark red, for example, which we can classify as very noticeable and a change to the second most significant bit would be half that, which we can classify as just noticable. Doing the maths, in each frame we're going to get 409 very noticeable pixel errors and a further 409 noticeable pixel errors. If that's not bad enough, consider it in terms of the number of errors per second. In the very optimistic scenario I'm describing, we're going to see a total of 24,558 noticeable pixel errors every single second, of which 12,273 will be very noticeable. Included in that figure is an extra 12 pixels every second that are going to have bit errors in the most significant bits of two colour components, which I think I can fairly describe as jarringly noticeable. As well as that, we're going to get a pixel on average once every 8 seconds with the most significant bit flipped in all three of its colour components, which I can't even think of a name for.

My point is that even with a seemingly high data accuracy rate like 99.9%, you get an image which is totally unacceptable in a consumer product. In order to get an image that I'd consider just about acceptable (no more than 1 pixel with a most-significant bit flipped every 10 seconds), you'll need an effective data accuracy rate of 99.9999997% or higher, even in the worst case scenario for interference. Of course you can decrease the effective error rate by including error correcting code with the data, but an awful lot of it will be needed in this case, probably pushing the actual amount of data transferred closer to 400Mbps than the 300Mbps of the video data itself. There is a possibility that the video will be compressed, but it would have to be a very basic compression scheme not to result in a noticeably laggy screen, so the compression ratios won't be anywhere near what we're used to with h264, etc.

While wireless video streaming devices may technically exist, doing what Nintendo need to do; stream video to a moving device with no noticeable lag and a good picture quality even in very high interference, is far from a "solved problem", in fact it's probably one of the most difficult problems in short-range wireless telecommunications. I trust Nintendo have managed it for a 854x480 screen, because they wouldn't have announced the product otherwise, but I don't doubt that the main reason they didn't announce support for multiple Wii U controllers is that there simply isn't feasible technology to do the same for multiple screens at a time.

*I'll exempt IEEE and ITU from my criticism of standards setting bodies, as they're fairly rigorous and transparent in terms of their procedures. You still won't get quite the quoted speed on something like WiFi most of the time, but it's nowhere near the disparity you get with technologies designed by private groups.

With the Wii U, this isn't as trivial as it is with normal graphics cards. The Wii U's framebuffer will be probably be of fixed size (32MB of EDRAM we've heard), with a special range dedicated to the tablet screen. In that scenario you can't 'just' allocate more room like you do on a normal graphics card, as the location of each pixel on each screen is predetermined in hardware. It's not impossible to get his to work, but fitting the extra screen(s) in EDRAM will cause a performance hit.

I should have clarified myself there. I meant that Nintendo could have changed the specs to include a larger framebuffer, which would have been quite feasible after E3, when there was still over a year to launch.

 

[Paul Gale]

Oh my God, I was watching these trailers for the billionth rime yesterday, and if HAWKEN was an exclusive...

Also, HI PAUL.

Considering your position and connections in the industry, I can fully understand your caution in revealing information. I believe there are some things that wouldn't compromise your stance in all of this, however: is the game a first or third party title, for instance? How long has it been in development? Are the two versions to work together, or are they separate?

You know more than anyone how scarce info has been since E3, so any answers will be wholly appreciated!

Never the less, thanks for coming on and setting a few things straight for us. It must be very difficult operating in the position you're in!

...with as many people as possible. Good responses, bad ones...I think they're all inevitable, so instead of shying away, I'd rather see what people have to say. As for more details, the two games are indeed of the same general title and seemingly work together (have to confirm both). That's actually more than I mentioned before too...and I'd rather not say anything else at this point because I'm still working a few things out before I make the announcement (to validate as much as possible), permitted I'm allowed to. Thanks again!

 

[Vinci]

All these comments from developers mentioning digital download games or similar things and their possibilities on coming to Wii U makes me wonder if they're already getting advanced notice on what to expect for the distribution channels and now I want someone to leak the fuck out of said plans.

At this point, any information would be preferable. We've speculated this fucking thing to hell and back, again and again... and I'm starting to hate the name at this point. Even when I didn't before. I'm just sick of seeing it and going, "Oh? What's new?" and there's never anything new. Nothing.

Nintendo dropped this sonuvabitch on us without so much as the common courtesy to be clear about a damned thing, and then ran off into its cave and left us to decipher what the hell any of it meant.

The only positive things I have to hold onto are Chase Mii and Battle Mii, which still should be watched by anyone going, "I don't get it - it won't be successful like the Wii... It doesn't relate to it at all - who gives a damn about streaming the game to a tiny screen! YADDA YADDA YADDA NOT LISTENING I DON'T WANT TO KNOW"

That last part, mitigating its ability to send the game (and virtually anything else besides) to the controller's screen? It's mind-boggling. The potential is immense. But then folks talk about putting the HUD on the screen, which is about the least interesting thing it could be used for but why not, and again with the "YADDA YADDA YADDA NOT LISTENING I DON'T WANT TO KNOW"

....

I hate the name.

 

[bgassassin]

The Xbox thread got me thinking. What do you all think about the possibility of DDR4?

Samsung developed the first 4Gbit module a year ago. That would mean Nintendo would only need three chips to reach 1.5GB. Off the top of my head the pros would be Nintendo could clock the CPU and DDR4 at the same speed while the voltage should still remain low. The con off the top of my head would be that I'm not sure if the latency would be acceptable or if the clock speed overcomes that issue enough to be usable for a console.

Sure, but the fact remains that rendering on Wii U by its very design requires more CPU/GPU because it has multiple screens to render to. This is pretty much always going to mean the main screen will never be at "full potential".

Hey man. All I said was that it should take the burden off those two.

*puts up fists*

*kicks Azak in his left ankle bone*

*runs*

 

[Freezie KO]

Honestly, they really don't need to. As long as the option exists, then the "core" guys can play whatever way they want. Many Wii games do this already, so nothing changes. Even Treyach can simply port over their Wii control option and everyone is happy.

I just want the option for pointer controls. But Treyarch is the exception since they already have them programmed and planned for. I'm afraid games like "Killer Freaks" won't use pointer controls, which is an instant no-buy for me.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Hey man. All I said was that it should take the burden off those two.

*puts up fists*

*kicks Azak in his left ankle bone*

*runs*

I'm beginning to question if you are an assassin.

 

[-WindYoshi-]

The thought has just occurred to me that most of us will own a Wii U sometime within the next 11 months and at this point, we still know very little about it's game line-up or it's technical capabilities. I know this is annoying to most people, but to me, the anticipation created by this situation is SUPER FUCKING AWESOME.

 

[bgassassin]

*high fives WindYoshi*

I'm beginning to question if you are an assassin.

Assassins only kill for money.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

*high fives WindYoshi*



Assassins only kill for money.

I sporked a guy in the eye for a bagel once.

 

[Vinci]

I sporked a guy in the eye for a bagel once.

For a mere bagel?

That just shows a shocking lack of standards.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

For a mere bagel?

That just shows a shocking lack of standards.

I was gonna put some fish I found in a dumpster on it.

 

[Freezie KO]

Lack of Wii U news makes people go crazy.

 

[bgassassin]

For a mere bagel?

That just shows a shocking lack of standards.

LOL. This.

That's not assassin quality.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Lack of Wii U news makes people go crazy.

Incorrect.

I state there is sufficient evidence to declare my insanity chronic.

 

[StreetsAhead]

Incorrect.

I state there is sufficient evidence to declare my insanity chronic.

It certainly is an acute case though and it is showing early signs of spreading.


...

...

...

I want a Monolith Soft developed Ice Climbers revival.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

It certainly is an acute case though and it is showing early signs of spreading.


...

...

...

I want a Monolith Soft developed Ice Climbers revival.

Xenoclimbers!!!

 

[crazy monkey]

hello thunder monkey.

 

[Gravijah]

if we're on the subject of things that will never happen, i want an ead yoshi's island sequel.

 

[StreetsAhead]

Xenoclimbers!!!

Xenomallet: Disaster - Day of Avalanche

In other unimportant 'news' I walked by the Nintendo building in Kyoto over the weekend (abandoned for New Year). It was, for a moment, tempting to try and break in and steal all the secrets.

All of the secrets.

 

[Instro]

hello thunder monkey.

One of you must assert dominance.

 

[Azure J]

Chalk another one up to getting excited over the prospect of next (home console) gen starting and a new Nintendo console being out over the course of this year. This interim period though, fuck this shit. If I didn't have Skyward Sword and Ultimate MvC3, I'd probably be in full on ravenous for info mode.

For a mere bagel?

That just shows a shocking lack of standards.

Yeah, only go that far if a danish is involved.

 

[Cmd. Pishad'aç]

I'm gonna make up a rumor, just because I feel bored:

The Wii U will run on Android.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I was gonna ask something about the OS, did they say they are making an all new one?

 

[D-Pad]

if we're on the subject of things that will never happen, i want an ead yoshi's island sequel.

But it happened! Let's use Wind Waker as an example instead.

 

[BY2K]

Like I said in another thread, if Microsoft does announce the next Xbox at CES, we're in for a hell of a E3 this year.

That and it would probably forces Sony's hand to announce their next console too.

 

[bgassassin]

Like I said in another thread, if Microsoft does announce the next Xbox at CES, we're in for a hell of a E3 this year.

That and it would probably forces Sony's hand to announce their next console too.

I will follow this post with the same response.

That is unless they were already planning to do so. >_>

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

I kinda hope they do. I love when all 3 companies are pimping their shit. Exciting times.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

hello thunder monkey.

You're just mad because I make monkey's look bad.

You're a chimp that calls himself monkey. If they didn't want a monkey to talk they shouldn't have genetically engineered me with the ability to talk and a capacity to learn human language.

This is what humans get.

And I have mellowed substantially. I don't think I've mentioned meat hooks in months now.

 

[Vinci]

I'm gonna make up a rumor, just because I feel bored:

The Wii U will run on Android.

Nah. WebOS.

 

[BY2K]

I kinda hope they do. I love when all 3 companies are pimping their shit. Exciting times.

1 console reveal from each of the big 3 (though we already know about the Wii U), would be crazy insane.

Gaming Press will go batshit insane over the news overload.

 

[AzaK]

I will follow this post with the same response.

That is unless they were already planning to do so. >_>

3 new consoles this year confirmed! Wii U severely underpowered compared to the other two, therefore Nintendo is doomed confirmed as well.

Btw, it wasn't fair putting paralysing poison on the end of your toe. Damned assassins.

1 console reveal from each of the big 3 (though we already know about the Wii U), would be crazy insane.

Gaming Press will go batshit insane over the news overload.

And I guarantee that even if Wii U was as powerful, could render to 2 tablets, had online, patching, GTA exclusive and a free pube from Miyamoto in every unit, the gaming press would slam Nintendo for not doing enough and call it gimmicky and a fad.

 

[Ashodin]

Like I said in another thread, if Microsoft does announce the next Xbox at CES, we're in for a hell of a E3 this year.

That and it would probably forces Sony's hand to announce their next console too.

Regardless, Wii U's E3 showing will be fan-fucking-tastic. Because they will more than likely have a metric fuckton of games to show off. They've been cooking a full goddamn year since last E3, which means we'll see some amazing shit.

Wait, I need a gif of Doc from BTTF saying "When this baby hits 88 mph, you're gonna see some serious shit."

 

[AzaK]

Regardless, Wii U's E3 showing will be fan-fucking-tastic. Because they will more than likely have a metric fuckton of games to show off. They've been cooking a full goddamn year since last E3, which means we'll see some amazing shit.

Christ, do I hope you're right. I want my clothes to disintegrate instantly from my body as I watch the steam.

 

[bgassassin]

3 new consoles this year confirmed! Wii U severely underpowered compared to the other two, therefore Nintendo is doomed confirmed as well.

Btw, it wasn't fair putting paralysing poison on the end of your toe. Damned assassins

Oops, my bad. I'll clean them better next time after work.

But I am of the belief that all three consoles are revealed in some fashion this E3.

 

[StreetsAhead]

Regardless, Wii U's E3 showing will be fan-fucking-tastic. Because they will more than likely have a metric fuckton of games to show off. They've been cooking a full goddamn year since last E3, which means we'll see some amazing shit.

Wait, I need a gif of Doc from BTTF saying "When this baby hits 88 mph, you're gonna see some serious shit."

Darksiders 2, Killer Freaks, Pikmin, Batman: AA, That AssCreed game, Lego City, 2D Mario game, Retro's game, Dragon Quest X, Wii U Sports/Fit/Play, that Sonic Colours game if it was real plus whatever EA are working on.

And more. Probably.

Maybe even really early teasers/CG footage of Zelda, 3D Mario, and Smash Brothers.

Am I missing anything obvious?

EDIT: I guess Tekken, Ninja Gaiden 3, Monolith's game, Tom Clancy, and Rabbids, plus another Ubi game (they said they had 5 in development at e3).

 

[Ashodin]

Christ, do I hope you're right. I want my clothes to disintegrate instantly from my body as I watch the steam.

It will, I think.

Since Wii U last E3 was more tech demo than game, and even IF Next Xbox gets shown, it more than likely won't have games to show off, more like CGI trailers. Wii U will have PLAYABLE games you can fuck around with!

THE FUTURE IS NOW BABY

 

[AzaK]

Oops, my bad. I'll clean them better next time after work.

But I am of the belief that all three consoles are revealed in some fashion this E3.

Yeah it makes sense. Steal as much thunder as they can from Nintendo. After the 1, 2, 3 punch Nintendo gave Sony and the Vita launch they'll be out for revenge.

Darksiders 2, Killer Freaks, Pikmin, Batman: AA, That AssCreed game, Lego City, 2D Mario game, Retro's game, Dragon Quest X, Wii U Sports/Fit/Play, that Sonic Colours game if it was real plus whatever EA are working on.
Am I missing anything obvious?

Maybe not obvious but I would like to say GTA V in game rendered teaser trailer.

 

[watershed]

From this E3 I expect a lot of wii u hands on write ups saying "it looks like a 360 game". Probably every single one.

 

[Vinci]

And I guarantee that even if Wii U was as powerful, could render to 2 tablets, had online, patching, GTA exclusive and a free pube from Miyamoto in every unit, the gaming press would slam Nintendo for not doing enough and call it gimmicky and a fad.

That isn't completely unfair though. The enthusiast press is devoted more towards Microsoft and Sony's systems and properties. In their minds Nintendo has an enormous amount of room to make up to reach parity with their current systems, never mind the next generation. This isn't too dissimilar to the difficulty Sony and MS would face attempting to appeal to Mario fans with a 'Mario killer.'

 

[StreetsAhead]

From this E3 I expect a lot of wii u hands on write ups saying "it looks like a 360 game". Probably every single one.

Which would be fine, since a lot of launch 360 games looked like Xbox games.

 

[Hydrogen Bluebird]

Wii U looks really interesting to me. I might go and buy 2 consoles next gen, w/c for me is a 1st.

Tablet controller looks pretty fucking cool, and the applications for it would be endless.

PLus, Nintendo's 1st party games will always be awesome.