Wii U Speculation Thread of Brains Beware: Wii U Re-Unveiling At E3 2012

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lednerg said:
Like the others said, those games will have new gameplay elements added to them via the controller's touchscreen (as well as a graphics boost). Will that be enough to attract owners of those games to buy them again? Eh, probably not. Still, that's hardly a reason to ditch the ports altogether - especially when they'll end up showcasing the system's abilities. There's no doubt the internet will be littered with all sorts of head-to-head comparisons of those titles. Also, any chance for a developer to get used to the hardware is only a good thing.

I've decided that I'll be holding back on a few games to see if they're released on the Wii U and with what functionality. If games will be IR with controller screen usage to "enhance" gameplay, then they'll have my money. If it's just a straight port with nothing including dual analog, then I'll just get the 360/PS3/PC version. If developers and Nintendo don't want to use the strengths of the system and various control options, then they won't get my money.

I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt right now.
 
z0m3le said:
I know this is old info but I haven't read it anywhere:

Gustav Halling, Gameplay designer at DICE and BF3

"Didn't say it wouldn't compete with current gen.

But I know how much RAM the WiiU has and I have an idea of how much "we" developers would like to see in the next Xbox and PS4, and they differ a lot.

Still, the WiiU will be the most powerful console out there when it's released, BY FAR!
But I wonder for how long...
Nintendo cant go and compete with MS and Sony i think because they want to keep their console cheaper as with the Wii.
BUT, I might also be wrong and this is Nintendos real hunt after the hardcore MS and Sony players.

And I agree with the controller, it looks amazing, but I dont see you playing BF3 on it (switching like they did in the rpg they showed) but maybe have the minimap up with chat support etc, that would be awesome!

The future will tell =)"

I figure the dev kits right now might have less ram then the final system, so if it's say 1gb right now, it might end up at 1.5gb or even 2 just because a 2GB stick would be cheaper than 1gb and a 512mb stick.

This also means that if they are working on a BF3 game, it hasn't started yet... The EA president does talk like they are putting it on there.

Also that more powerful BY FAR sure sounds nice.

here's a link but the words don't match the quote above. http://www.gustavhalling.com/2011/06/08/wiiu-thoughts-nintendos-new-console/

I wonder the link I posted talks about improved ram but he also says it will be "run down again" by Sony's and Microsoft's next consoles. Slightly worrying statements from a developer.

It’s not a big step up from consoles as x360 or PS3, it is better hardware wise but when the new xbox and ps4 comes it will be runned down again, wanted to see something much stronger.All the Zelda stuff was RENDERED, we havent seen anything play on the console in their show, all “good looking” stuff was rendered. BF3 was from our movies. I dont think the end game results will be significantly better than x360 and PS3. But the extra RAM will help with player limits that are stopping x360/ps3 today in for example BF3.
 
artwalknoon said:
here's a link but the words don't match the quote above. http://www.gustavhalling.com/2011/06/08/wiiu-thoughts-nintendos-new-console/

I wonder the link I posted talks about improved ram but he also says it will be "run down again" by Sony's and Microsoft's next consoles. Slightly worrying statements from a developer.

Some of his stuff is off base like the comments everything was rendered and not real time. We know dev kits right now are underperforming and will be replaced soon. So hard to know where things are going. He also comments on lack of disc space etc yet we know Nintendo is matching Blu Ray space.
 
antonz said:
It was on his personal site. He also mentioned the extra memory in the system would allow more players in seemingly multiplayer versus the caps on 360/PS3

Ok, I found the page. The guy seems to have an interesting definition of what is a "big step" from the 360/PS3. In his original post, he stated that the Wii U is "not a big step up from consoles as x360 or PS3", but then later stated "the WiiU will be the most powerful console out there when it's released, BY FAR! He also apparently doesn't think the games will look much better compared to the 360. Is he figuring that most of that power will be used for the resolution and the extra screen?

artwalknoon, the quote that was copied eariler is from his reply in the comment section.
 
Found some more of his statements in the comments section. Of course he is just one developer and he also says the hardware isn't final. But his basic premise is that Nintendo is basically expanding on the wii strategy and the wii u will have the same pitfalls as the wii compared to Sony and Microsoft's next consoles.

Didn’t say it wouldn’t compete with current gen.

But I know how much RAM the WiiU has and I have an idea of how much “we” developers would like to see in the next Xbox and PS4, and they differ a lot.

Still, the WiiU will be the most powerful console out there when it’s released, BY FAR!
But I wonder for how long…
Nintendo cant go and compete with MS and Sony i think because they want to keep their console cheaper as with the Wii.
BUT, I might also be wrong and this is Nintendos real hunt after the hardcore MS and Sony players.

And I agree with the controller, it looks amazing, but I dont see you playing BF3 on it (switching like they did in the rpg they showed) but maybe have the minimap up with chat support etc, that would be awesome!

The future will tell =)

I did say I am exited about the controller.
I won’t be exited about the console until I see a good game running on it.
Using SD card and “usb” devices, disabling internal permanent storage is
also weak in my mind, wouldn’t be suprised if it is for ppl to buy Nintendo
licensed H.D.Ds later to have the illusion of a cheaper console.

We devs need storage to run and patch our games properly, something
Microsoft is being a showstopper on current gen with their x360 without
harddrive and 4mb title update limits.
Meaning we can’t patch what we want if needed.

The future will tell what WiiU will give us :)

Didn’t I say that I don’t think games would look much better then on x360
and ps3? But that it was more powerful.

I think the next gen consoles will be much stronger so we will be
downgrading towards the WiiU like with the Wii today.

That is what I meant anyway :)
http://www.gustavhalling.com/2011/06/08/wiiu-thoughts-nintendos-new-console/
 
in one of his follow ups he tosses out there when called out on the power statements that he meant just because there is power doesnt mean automatically better graphics.
 
AceBandage said:
It really sounds like he doesn't fully know what he's saying...

After reading his comments, I'm starting to think so, too.

antonz said:
in one of his follow ups he tosses out there when called out on the power statements that he meant just because there is power doesnt mean automatically better graphics.

This is something that people really need to understand. It's all about how the devs handle that power and with diminishing returns, to the average gamer the different may be slight...if that.
 
artwalknoon said:
Found some more of his statements in the comments section. Of course he is just one developer and he also says the hardware isn't final. But his basic premise is that Nintendo is basically expanding on the wii strategy and the wii u will have the same pitfalls as the wii compared to Sony and Microsoft's next consoles.


http://www.gustavhalling.com/2011/06/08/wiiu-thoughts-nintendos-new-console/
Well... That's a huge disappointment. If he's right, then I REALLY want this to fail so Nintendo will be forced to work toward a balance. :/
 
BurntPork said:
He also said that Zelda was rendered. wat
Well technically he's not incorrect.
All computer graphics are renders.

I think what he meant was the Zelda demo was just a render and not an actual game (which would do a lot more then just render graphics).
 
Luigiv said:
Well technically he's not incorrect.
All computer graphics are renders.

I think what he meant was the Zelda demo was just a render and not an actual game (which would do a lot more then just render graphics).


It isn't a render though.
There's a difference from a target render and a tech demo.
The original Killzone 2 demo was a target render.
 
BurntPork said:
Well... That's a huge disappointment. If he's right, then I REALLY want this to fail so Nintendo will be forced to work toward a balance. :/

Not really? He is saying the Wii U is significantly more powerful than the PS3/360, but he would like for the PS4/720 to be even more powerful than that. That's just his little wet dream.
 
Gustav Halling said:
We devs need storage to run and patch our games properly, something Microsoft is being a showstopper on current gen with their x360 without hard drive and 4mb title update limits. Meaning we can’t patch what we want if needed.

I really hate this, constant patching of games... It irritates me when I want to just jump into a game and play straight away but now we load up a game, there's a patch to download and install and just puts me out of a game playing mood. Why can't developers get it right in the first place? I'm sort of glad Nintendo is skimping a bit on storage space so it doesn't give developers the excuse to rush shit out the door and patch it later. I have no problems buying my own portable HDD to use as extra storage as it's cheap enough away. If developers need extra storage for their games, put a disclaimer on the box!
 
I doubt patching will be an issue that Nintendo actively limits. High Voltage software developed a whole patching system for the Wii and Nintendo doesnt try to put up roadblocks.

I can understand the frsutration of being told 4mb is what you can work with on a patch though
 
antonz said:
I doubt patching will be an issue that Nintendo actively limits. High Voltage software developed a whole patching system for the Wii and Nintendo doesnt try to put up roadblocks.

I can understand the frsutration of being told 4mb is what you can work with on a patch though

Honestly patching and DLC has gotten out of control this gen, I really hope for some moderation next-gen =[
 
I think we should keep in mind that English isn't his first language. Aside from a few factual errors based on his understanding of what Nintendo showed at E3 I think his thoughts are mostly accurate. Keep in mind Also keep in mind that on one hand he knows more about the current dev kit/hardware specs than we do on the other hand his reactions to E3 are only as informed as ours. His statements about the demos and controller are based on the same things we all saw.

One comment I agree with is what he says about how to make graphically superior hardware in for the next gen without breaking the bank like Sony did with the PS3.
The thing id that they(sony) should focus on general known tech as Xbox did,
just a good CPU and lots of RAM so we can keep more players and vehicles in
memory. The forced PS3 RAM usage is a big showstopper on multi platform
games today.
 
Truth101 said:
Not really? He is saying the Wii U is significantly more powerful than the PS3/360, but he would like for the PS4/720 to be even more powerful than that. That's just his little wet dream.
Yeah, but if he ends up being right on all fronts, including his wet dream, then it would be better for gamers if Wii U failed, since it would mean that either Nintendo would have to be more competitive next gen, or they'd have to go third-party.

My logic is godly, for I am BurntPork, and I may or may not flip-flop constantly when tired.
 
AceBandage said:
It isn't a render though.
There's a difference from a target render and a tech demo.
The original Killzone 2 demo was a target render.
Did you not read my spoiler tag?

He didn't say target render or pre-rendered, he just said render. All computer graphics are rendered. "Real Time" is just shorthand for "Real Time Render".
 
BurntPork said:
Yeah, but if he ends up being right on all fronts, including his wet dream, then it would be better for gamers if Wii U failed, since it would mean that either Nintendo would have to be more competitive next gen, or they'd have to go third-party.

My logic is godly, for I am BurntPork, and I may or may not flip-flop constantly when tired.
False. If the Wii U fails as catastrophically as you suggest then Nintendo would just pull out of the games market and move into another industry. How is that better for us?

Edit: Oops double post.
 
I cant see any realistic way for the next gen consoles to blow away nintendos next gen console to the degree the Wii was.

They will all be using the same engines etc that scale well etc.

Even at the worse case PS4/720 can do 1080p at 60FPS in every game and the Wii for optimal IQ has to do 1080p at 30FPS or some odd in between of 720p and 1080P at 60FPS it wont be the same
 
Luigiv said:
Did you not read my spoiler tag?

He didn't say target render or pre-rendered, he just said render. All computer graphics are rendered. "Real Time" is just shorthand for "Real Time Render".

I always figured that those of us who are in the "know" about this sort of thing, "render" means something different from what he said. All graphics are rendered, that's true, and what you're saying he meant wouldn't make any sense. The impression I got from his comments is that the graphic demos weren't real-time...which they were.
 
They'd put the extra power to use onto something else anyway. I just don't see Nintendo going after a gaming PC kind of console design for a long time.
 
BurntPork said:
Yeah, but if he ends up being right on all fronts, including his wet dream, then it would be better for gamers if Wii U failed, since it would mean that either Nintendo would have to be more competitive next gen, or they'd have to go third-party.

My logic is godly, for I am BurntPork, and I may or may not flip-flop constantly when tired.

I really just wanted to laugh at this post.

But, no his wet-dream is a wet-dream for a reason it isn't going to come true in real life. People have already argued this point to you for days and I really don't need to see a reason for me to continue it.

So I'll just state the Wii U will never put Nintendo in a position like the Wii has.
 
EDarkness said:
I always figured that those of us who are in the "know" about this sort of thing, "render" means something different from what he said. All graphics are rendered, that's true, and what you're saying he meant wouldn't make any sense. The impression I got from his comments is that the graphic demos weren't real-time...which they were.
Actually re-reading his comment, you might be right. Looks like he didn't actually see the show floor demo at all and was just going by what he, incorrectly, heard from Reggie in an interview.

In the interview given 15 minutes after on Spike with Reggie (you know the NA Nintendo boss) he said that Zelda was rendered and showed how "it could look".

I don't remember Reggies exact words either but I highly doubt he would have used the word render (seems like too technical a term for him).
 
sarusama said:
Yes, sorry I realize the ambiguity now. I used animation in both the sense of what you'd expect relates to a character's movement, i.e., a running animation; and I used it in the sense of a cutscene or non-interactive visuals. So the "demo" is what I called an animation, because you didn't actually control any of the action and were only a spectator. I should have properly called it a cut-scene. And yes, sorry again I should have called Samaritan a cut-scene instead of a canned animation. I was mis-using animation here in the sense of not live action video.

First thanks for providing that explanation. I'll start here first since to me everything else revolves around this. So if I understood you correctly the animation aspect engine and not an asset?

sarusama said:
nope, sorry, too many dependencies... parse error. Here's what I'm interpreting: Assets = stuff that an engine uses. Live/CG cut-scenes are not assets because their visual representation is not produced by the engine and in that sense have not been "used" by the engine. "what a real-time demo would be" = visuals produced by an engine in real-time that a user can manipulate. So to put it all together, you are using the final visuals as a baseline, the "real-time demo" is visuals produced by the engine on the fly (and uses assets to do so), the "live/CG cutscenes" directly are the final visuals and therefore use no assets? I just wrote this to try to clarify where my confusion might stem from. Please see the definition above for how I separate stuff into game = engine + assets, where game is interactive or non-interactive.

For the most part yes. minus the "the "live/CG cutscenes" directly are the final visuals and therefore use no assets" since I only said those things weren't assets in the context of what we were talking about, not that they don't use assets. But originally it was a clarification of an old thought anyway so it's not relevant anymore.

sarusama said:
I feel I must resist the implication that older relates to gimping. I just realized that if I had read "which potentially gimps", I wouldn't have replied. Instead my parser identified a fact and my mind tried to find supporting evidence for it ;)

IMO the quality of the demo is much more influenced by how much time they had to produce it and how much effort they put in as opposed to the capability/quality of the underlying engine. Just because the demo looked so-so doesn't mean the engine wouldn't have been, in its state at the time, capable of producing much better. E.g., when you look at the spider model you can see that the fur on the legs is horribly resolved. I'd be more inclined to believe the modeler didn't want to bother redrawing the fur textures and used existing ones, as opposed to the quality being related to the capability of the engine.

Heh. Well there was no need to say potentially gimps. You wouldn't get Gears of War visuals with UE1 or UE2.

I agree about the time part as well, I've just never referred to it in past posts. I think with my perspective though I would say time and engine are about 50/50 in comparison to what you are saying.


sarusama said:
The way you word this would make me inclined to believe that you work for Nintendo and know this is the case. What support do you have to state that Nintendo's current technology is not already adequate? Just because you have new hardware doesn't mean you need a "new engine" -- by that I mean a new conceptual framework to tie in the various software technologies needed to produce game simulation, visuals and audio.

Also I don't see the obvious support for saying that Nintendo tends to work in a way that they build non-reusable technology, i.e., tying assets to technology. On the contrary, based on what some are saying that the current engine could be based on what they needed to produce Sunshine, it would be reasonable to believe that Nintendo strong separates technology and specific games.

Sorry I'm not necessarily fighting your points as I don't have insider knowledge that would allow me to state the contrary. I'd just like folks to similarly realize that *they* don't have insider knowledge but their comments make it seems as if they do. The common issue I see is that people simply things dramatically but are also not aware that they are doing so, discarding the complexities of reality.

I don't believe you are fighting me at all. We're just have a solid discussion. I've been in those types of discussions before and this is nowhere near that.

Now the problem here is that you are implying things that weren't said or aren't there.

First it shouldn't be confusing since I used "tends" not "does". Also I've said multiple times already that I've used inductive reasoning, so it's not about providing the type of support you're looking for when the conclusions were never intended to be fact in the first place. So with Nintendo they reuse things to the point of redundancy at times, and they are about simplicity and efficiency. They more than likely didn't want to spend a lot of time on it since it was just a demo or in this case a partially interactive cut-scene, the assets and engine are already available, and they have access to a level of hardware they didn't have before. So the conclusion from those things based on reasoning would be a better looking cut-scene from modifications that was able to be done in a short amount of time, yet still has room for improvement. At best what we saw was a x.5 version of their current engine.

I know that you don't have to have a new engine for new hardware, but in Nintendo's case they need it. The Gamecube-based hardware if infinitely outdated compared to what going into Wii U. But like I said, I expect them to do that anyway so there's no real concern about it.

Also I don't see how you got non-reusable technology from that. I didn't say it was impossible to separate the two, just hard. And even then that was from the perspective of that engine is what they would use those assets with. I was speaking figuratively not literally. Nintendo's not the type to do a bunch of unnecessary things just to achieve a goal. I don't see them utilizing the alternate routes you mentioned before just for a tech demo when the foundation (engine with the assets) for it are already there.
 
AceBandage said:
I think he'll be disappointed in how powerful the PS4/720 are.

Probably. There is only so much power you can put into a reasonably priced console compared to high-end PCs.


antonz said:
I cant see any realistic way for the next gen consoles to blow away nintendos next gen console to the degree the Wii was.

They will all be using the same engines etc that scale well etc.

Even at the worse case PS4/720 can do 1080p at 60FPS in every game and the Wii for optimal IQ has to do 1080p at 30FPS or some odd in between of 720p and 1080P at 60FPS it wont be the same

That was what I thought. Even the Samaritan demo was still using UE3. One of Wii's biggest issues for third party developers was that the system couldn't run the newest engines at all. That will not be the case for the Wii U. Even the future next-gen engines may consider keeping compatibility with systems like the Ipad and Vita, and the Wii U is beyond those.
 
bgassassin said:
So if I understood you correctly the animation aspect engine and not an asset?
Please check this sentence again, I believe there's at least a verb missing.

bgassassin said:
Heh. Well there was no need to say potentially gimps. You wouldn't get Gears of War visuals with UE1 or UE2.
Well it depends on what UE1 is when contrasted with UE2. As an end-user you only see the final product, but don't really have insight into the internals. <this is an exaggerated example> For all I know UE2 could be UE1 with a more capable renderer </tiaee> It'll become clearer below when I clarify engine.

bgassassin said:
Also I've said multiple times already that I've used inductive reasoning, so it's not about providing the type of support you're looking for when the conclusions were never intended to be fact in the first place.
Ok, so I had to look this up. I'm going to go by the definition provided by wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning).

bgassassin said:
So with Nintendo they reuse things to the point of redundancy at times, and they are about simplicity and efficiency.
What is the premise that lead to this conclusion? What is the instance that you extrapolated/generalized from? If there is an obvious reason for you to state that (without the bounds of generalization as mentioned in the wikipedia entry of course) it is not obvious to me. Please point it out.

bgassassin said:
They more than likely didn't want to spend a lot of time on it since it was just a demo or in this case a partially interactive cut-scene, the assets and engine are already available, and they have access to a level of hardware they didn't have before. So the conclusion from those things based on reasoning would be a better looking cut-scene from modifications that was able to be done in a short amount of time, yet still has room for improvement. At best what we saw was a x.5 version of their current engine.
I followed everything up to the bolded part. However, your extrapolation is discarding too much of the complexity hidden behind the word "engine". Let me try to give a simple example: I assume from your experience you'll believe that with minor code changes (if any at all) you can replace the texture on a box with a different one, that might be of much higher-resolution. In this way you have increased the demands on the hardware and improved visual quality. But potentially all you did in the code was nothing if your content management system already reads the texture size from the texture asset that you provide (just the image + the size meta-data) and uses that to parametrize the GL texture object. A more interesting example is to consider that the way shaders are exposed in the OpenGL API is fairly orthogonal to the capabilities of the shader. Meaning that if your rendering component of your engine interacts with the hardware over OpenGL, you could conceivably just edit the source code for the shaders without touching anything else and your box is now a shader model 5 box with tessellation, compute and what have you.

bgassassin said:
I know that you don't have to have a new engine for new hardware, but in Nintendo's case they need it. The Gamecube-based hardware if infinitely outdated compared to what going into Wii U. But like I said, I expect them to do that anyway so there's no real concern about it.
Again, I would argue that you do not have enough information for this inductive step. What makes you say they need it? You don't know what their engine looks like.

Let me explain a little about where we might be mis-communicating when it comes to engines. What I understand as being an engine has more to do with the fundamental organization and collaboration of the contained individual software components and which concept integrate their functioning. I will illustrate this by means of the typical computer graphics pipeline:

graphics-rendering-pipelines-big.jpg


You'll see that things have changed in the pipeline with respect to the visuals that get produced on the screen and the capabilities of its processing. However, fundamentally it is still a pipeline that accepts descriptions of geometry on the top end, breaks it down to transformed primitives, rasterizes these into fragments (which influence elements of the display), processes each fragment, and accumulates a final image. I understand an engine as being such a conceptual organization (the graphics pipeline) from which you can swap out various elements or upgrade them. When you have to go and throw out the idea of the graphics pipeline, because you've found another way of organizing how you produce visuals, then you're going to produce a new engine.

EDIT: I just realized the pipeline example above might be poor, because most people associate engines with their rendering components and these components are not always abstracted tremendously to get closer to the metal performance. So please only focus on the idea as opposed to the concrete example :(

So when I say that Nintendo may not need to build a new engine, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have to upgrade some parts of it. I'm also not saying that they don't need to build a new engine, but having dealt a bit with such types of software frameworks, I'm more reserved in my statements because there is a lot more to consider for which I don't have enough information.

bgassassin said:
... I didn't say it was impossible to separate the two, just hard.
What makes you say this? What supports this claim?


Also, I think we should probably move this to PMs at this point... if folks haven't already put me on their "hide list" (there is such a feature right?)
 
sarusama said:
Please check this sentence again, I believe there's at least a verb missing.

Well it depends on what UE1 is when contrasted with UE2. As an end-user you only see the final product, but don't really have insight into the internals. <this is an exaggerated example> For all I know UE2 could be UE1 with a more capable renderer </tiaee> It'll become clearer below when I clarify engine.

Ok, so I had to look this up. I'm going to go by the definition provided by wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning).

What is the premise that lead to this conclusion? What is the instance that you extrapolated/generalized from? If there is an obvious reason for you to state that (without the bounds of generalization as mentioned in the wikipedia entry of course) it is not obvious to me. Please point it out.

I followed everything up to the bolded part. However, your extrapolation is discarding too much of the complexity hidden behind the word "engine". Let me try to give a simple example: I assume from your experience you'll believe that with minor code changes (if any at all) you can replace the texture on a box with a different one, that might be of much higher-resolution. In this way you have increased the demands on the hardware and improved visual quality. But potentially all you did in the code was nothing if your content management system already reads the texture size from the texture asset that you provide (just the image + the size meta-data) and uses that to parametrize the GL texture object. A more interesting example is to consider that the way shaders are exposed in the OpenGL API is fairly orthogonal to the capabilities of the shader. Meaning that if your rendering component of your engine interacts with the hardware over OpenGL, you could conceivably just edit the source code for the shaders without touching anything else and your box is now a shader model 5 box with tessellation, compute and what have you.

Again, I would argue that you do not have enough information for this inductive step. What makes you say they need it? You don't know what their engine looks like.

Let me explain a little about where we might be mis-communicating when it comes to engines. What I understand as being an engine has more to do with the fundamental organization and collaboration of the contained individual software components and which concept integrate their functioning. I will illustrate this by means of the typical computer graphics pipeline:

graphics-rendering-pipelines-big.jpg


You'll see that things have changed in the pipeline with respect to the visuals that get produced on the screen and the capabilities of its processing. However, fundamentally it is still a pipeline that accepts descriptions of geometry on the top end, breaks it down to transformed primitives, rasterizes these into fragments (which influence elements of the display), processes each fragment, and accumulates a final image. I understand an engine as being such a conceptual organization (the graphics pipeline) from which you can swap out various elements or upgrade them. When you have to go and throw out the idea of the graphics pipeline, because you've found another way of organizing how you produce visuals, then you're going to produce a new engine.

EDIT: I just realized the pipeline example above might be poor, because most people associate engines with their rendering components and these components are not always abstracted tremendously to get closer to the metal performance. So please only focus on the idea as opposed to the concrete example :(

So when I say that Nintendo may not need to build a new engine, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have to upgrade some parts of it. I'm also not saying that they don't need to build a new engine, but having dealt a bit with such types of software frameworks, I'm more reserved in my statements because there is a lot more to consider for which I don't have enough information.

What makes you say this? What supports this claim?


Also, I think we should probably move this to PMs at this point... if folks haven't already put me on their "hide list" (there is such a feature right?)

Aww man. I thought we were entertaining the others (for better or for worse), but I can move to that.
 
lwilliams3 said:
Actually, have there been any developers so far that have actually complained about the rumored specs of the Wii U? The closest I recall was someone from the BG&E team saying simply said it wasn't a next-gen system. I believe that most game developers are good with the Wii U's power as long as it can properly run their game engines and/or that they know enough about the Wii U's final specs to know not to worry about it.

I know I haven't read any comments like that. Just from some of the comments we've seen they seem to be happy just to have access to more memory than PS360.
 
I'm kind of puzzled at the whole engine discussion or why it matters, but still, it has been educational. There's been a lack of fresh Wii U rumors since E3, so at least it's something to talk about. For me, I always thought of a "game engine" as being everything leading up to and including those yellow "Input Data" rectangles at the top of that picture. Everything after that I would call a "rendering engine". But I'm not about to pretend like I know what I'm talking about.
 
I'm actually really enjoying what most devs are saying about the Wii U, they don't know much more than we do, at least not till this next wave of dev kits come, but they pretty much expect Wii U to do everything the next gen will do, just at a lower resolution, which is fine with me... Dev's won't be forced to make super detailed games, and if games like ICO's last guardian game is any indication, I don't really want devs to make those games. Let those games be few and far between, so we don't have to wait 5+ years for every game... 2 years is long enough. To be perfectly honest, all I want is more games at the detail of Rockstar's recent games, red dead 3 is probably the biggest 3rd party game I'm waiting for. Now of course I want it to look better, but more the animations and lighting, with LA: Noire's speech engine.

I am looking at this next gen as a much smaller jump, basically just pulling off a bit more for the bigger publishers and making things at solid frame rates with better lighting and animations for everyone else.

lednerg said:
I'm kind of puzzled at the whole engine discussion or why it matters, but still, it has been educational. There's been a lack of fresh Wii U rumors since E3, so at least it's something to talk about. For me, I always thought of a "game engine" as being everything leading up to and including those yellow "Input Data" rectangles at the top of that picture. Everything after that I would call a "rendering engine". But I'm not about to pretend like I know what I'm talking about.

Engines are just another layer of API's that hold classes that will do somethings automatically for you when called, think of it as a lego set with some pre built structures. just go a bit nuts with that idea, and you'll have a pretty good idea of what an engine is.
 
Truth101 said:
I really just wanted to laugh at this post.

But, no his wet-dream is a wet-dream for a reason it isn't going to come true in real life. People have already argued this point to you for days and I really don't need to see a reason for me to continue it.

So I'll just state the Wii U will never put Nintendo in a position like the Wii has.

Wet dream to blow out console debuted with video from 6 year old console? So funny man. The consoles wont be on the same planet. Mark Rein knows it because everybody but a Nintendo fan knows it.

If Nintendo does not even have set up patching framework? Wii U will blow up on their face if they really think to sell 360 games
 
Luckyman said:
Wet dream to blow out console debuted with video from 6 year old console? So funny man. The consoles wont be on the same planet. Mark Rein knows it because everybody but a Nintendo fan knows it.

If Nintendo does not even have set up patching framework? Wii U will blow up on their face if they really think to sell 360 games
Edit: Actually I think I decoded your post. Anyway, what's Mark Rein got to do with Gustav Hallings post? Last I checked Mark Rein was excited about the Wii U and even going so far as Defend Nintendo's decisions on it.

Anyway, all sign point to the Sony and Microsofts next consoles being based on DX11 tech with at most 10 times the power of the the current gen systems (which isn't especially huge for a generation leap). If the Wii U can reach 3 to 4 times the power of PS360 then the gap isn't going to be particularly huge (Think PS2 to Xbox 1).
 
Luigiv said:
Edit: Actually I think I decoded your post. Anyway, what's Mark Rein got to do with Gustav Hallings post? Last I checked Mark Rein was excited about the Wii U and even going so far as Defend Nintendo's decisions on it.

Anyway, all sign point to the Sony and Microsofts next consoles being based on DX11 tech with at most 10 times the power of the the current gen systems (which isn't especially huge for a generation leap). If the Wii U can reach 3 to 4 times the power of PS360 then the gap isn't going to be particularly huge (Think PS2 to Xbox 1).
Dont bother. Luckyman always seems to dodge the troll ban.
 
z0m3le said:
I wasn't looking at prices, I was thinking about the quantity of the order, chips would generally work the same, samsung or whoever they buy ram from, would sell them 2GB at nearly the same price as 1.5GB worth of chips, because they can't use .5GB chips for anyone else... so to put it into perspective, 256mb chips x 4 is one price, and 256mb chips x 8 would be another, yes they could probably get 6, but the ratio of price per chip would be higher in all likely hood.

It doesn't work like that..
 
lednerg said:
I'm kind of puzzled at the whole engine discussion or why it matters, but still, it has been educational. There's been a lack of fresh Wii U rumors since E3, so at least it's something to talk about. For me, I always thought of a "game engine" as being everything leading up to and including those yellow "Input Data" rectangles at the top of that picture. Everything after that I would call a "rendering engine". But I'm not about to pretend like I know what I'm talking about.

It's important because it made someone who is an extremely rare poster start posting. :P

But you know how it is in situations like this with a lack of info. Discussions can go anywhere till something comes out to re-focus our attention. So what the heck, I'll respond here instead of a PM.

sarusama said:
Please check this sentence again, I believe there's at least a verb missing.

LOL. I think you know what it meant or else you wouldn't have said that.

sarusama said:
Well it depends on what UE1 is when contrasted with UE2. As an end-user you only see the final product, but don't really have insight into the internals. <this is an exaggerated example> For all I know UE2 could be UE1 with a more capable renderer </tiaee> It'll become clearer below when I clarify engine.

But that has nothing to do with the point I was making. Gears of War was made with UE3. Those two engines aren't capable of producing that level of visuals, therefore the visuals of GoW would be gimped by using the older engines. There's plenty of info out their to show differences in the engine versions. It comes off that you're intentionally "playing dumb" to prove your point.

sarusama said:
Ok, so I had to look this up. I'm going to go by the definition provided by wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_reasoning).

What is the premise that lead to this conclusion? What is the instance that you extrapolated/generalized from? If there is an obvious reason for you to state that (without the bounds of generalization as mentioned in the wikipedia entry of course) it is not obvious to me. Please point it out.

Since the mistakes Nintendo made with the N64, they made a fundamental change in certain things they did. Making simpler games, making hardware that's easier to develop for, making hardware that's about efficiency and not all out power, and separate from that using the same engine for multiple titles. Then there was continually using friend codes despite their broad unpopularity. And these are just off the top of my head.

Those are just a few of the things that lead to those conclusions.

I followed everything up to the bolded part. However, your extrapolation is discarding too much of the complexity hidden behind the word "engine". Let me try to give a simple example: I assume from your experience you'll believe that with minor code changes (if any at all) you can replace the texture on a box with a different one, that might be of much higher-resolution. In this way you have increased the demands on the hardware and improved visual quality. But potentially all you did in the code was nothing if your content management system already reads the texture size from the texture asset that you provide (just the image + the size meta-data) and uses that to parametrize the GL texture object. A more interesting example is to consider that the way shaders are exposed in the OpenGL API is fairly orthogonal to the capabilities of the shader. Meaning that if your rendering component of your engine interacts with the hardware over OpenGL, you could conceivably just edit the source code for the shaders without touching anything else and your box is now a shader model 5 box with tessellation, compute and what have you.

I know it ignores the complexity of game engines. I could go and do a long thorough study on it, but I just don't feel it's relevant just for this discussion. I'm like Nintendo. ;)

But also it's been awhile since I've had programming classes so I've forgotten a lot of things. Having a job that isn't computer-related doesn't help. This discussion is helping knock off the rust though.

Yes I would agree with what you have said, but would you also agree that if the management system is unable to produce what the modified code wants then the management system would have to upgraded?

The latter part seems to tie in with the next part of my response.

sarusama said:
Again, I would argue that you do not have enough information for this inductive step. What makes you say they need it? You don't know what their engine looks like.

Let me explain a little about where we might be mis-communicating when it comes to engines. What I understand as being an engine has more to do with the fundamental organization and collaboration of the contained individual software components and which concept integrate their functioning. I will illustrate this by means of the typical computer graphics pipeline:

http://www.geeks3d.com/public/jegx/200808/graphics-rendering-pipelines-big.jpg

You'll see that things have changed in the pipeline with respect to the visuals that get produced on the screen and the capabilities of its processing. However, fundamentally it is still a pipeline that accepts descriptions of geometry on the top end, breaks it down to transformed primitives, rasterizes these into fragments (which influence elements of the display), processes each fragment, and accumulates a final image. I understand an engine as being such a conceptual organization (the graphics pipeline) from which you can swap out various elements or upgrade them. When you have to go and throw out the idea of the graphics pipeline, because you've found another way of organizing how you produce visuals, then you're going to produce a new engine.

EDIT: I just realized the pipeline example above might be poor, because most people associate engines with their rendering components and these components are not always abstracted tremendously to get closer to the metal performance. So please only focus on the idea as opposed to the concrete example :(

So when I say that Nintendo may not need to build a new engine, I'm not saying that they shouldn't have to upgrade some parts of it. I'm also not saying that they don't need to build a new engine, but having dealt a bit with such types of software frameworks, I'm more reserved in my statements because there is a lot more to consider for which I don't have enough information.

There's enough information available because that type of reasoning is based on observation of facts and draws a conclusion that is not 100% fact. You're forgetting the conclusion part that identifies it as inductive. So yes there is enough available for the conclusions I draw. Speaking strictly from a TP perspective, the engine was at best created and at worst modified for the Gamecube hardware since that was originally what TP was going to be release on. Referring back to your example, Wii U should at worse use Shader Model 3.3. Gamecube used Shader Model 0.0 because as it's been said here before the GC's TEV had no programmable pixel and vertex shaders. That alone calls for a new build. There are a lot of limitations with that hardware and an engine optimized for that extremely limited hardware can only go so far when considering the huge hardware leap. I'm sure even you would agree with that. Continuing with a UE comparison, why use UE2 when UE3 is designed for more current hardware. I'm expecting Nintendo to do the same with theirs.

I think the last part is also where our miscommunication. You're looking for cold, hard facts based on your experience, but I'm not pursuing a method that will give that to you. And that's intentional.

sarusama said:
What makes you say this? What supports this claim?

Well when you take it out of context you lose what I was saying. I explained it right after that.
 
antonz said:
It was on his personal site. He also mentioned the extra memory in the system would allow more players in seemingly multiplayer versus the caps on 360/PS3

Well if you go with how much Ram developers want in a system you'd have to start with 4GB and upwards.
 
brain_stew said:
It doesn't work like that..

You know more than I do, I assure you, but my thought process is that they make a batch of chips at a time, say something divisible by 8 but not by 6 (since that is common practice with pc parts)

Samsung makes X number of 256mb chips at a time, X we will say is 8000, so Nintendo makes 1000 Wii U's from this batch, but it only needs 1.5gb of ram, so they decide to build 1333.333333333 Wii U's instead. Is it cheaper for Nintendo and Samsung to continue to waste ram when they are making millions of Wii U's?

That was my "show my work" I'm not sure how it would work out, but making an even number of Wii U's per order makes the most sense, but it also makes the most sense to make the biggest standard batch of memory chips you can... which is why I figured 2GB is still cheaper per MB than 1.5GB.

I've been reading this forum for a long time, so I know you generally have the right answer to this stuff. Still I didn't want to come off as a complete idiot. If my point of view is off, I wouldn't be surprised, but at the time, it made a lot of sense.
 
I don't understand, where is the wasted RAM? Building a run of 6 thousand chips would divide by both 8 and 6, if that's all you're trying to say. I'd expect it to be more in the millions but I don't know how these things work.
 
http://wii.ign.com/articles/117/1178879p1.html

Interesting, Ninja Gaiden Wii U is 30% complete:

"'We're looking forward to a merging of Ninja Gaiden 3 gameplay and visuals with Dragon Sword touch commands,' Garza told GiantBomb, noting that because development was early, anything could change. Garza also noted that while Dragon Sword wasn't particularly violent on the DS, potential Wii U owners had nothing to worry about. Prepare for a blood bath."

Graphics Horse said:
I don't understand, where is the wasted RAM? Building a run of 6 thousand chips would divide by both 8 and 6, if that's all you're trying to say.

That is what I'm trying to say, but would building a run of 6000 be as efficient? Again, I'm probably wrong, but I know they do chips in batches, and it seems that you would want to make the largest amount of chips that are fully useful, currently I'd imagine that Samsung or whoever would use sets of 256mb chips divisible by 8, but wouldn't care much about 6, as 512mb chips of ram are only really used in current consoles and cell phones. (though cell phone memory would not be used in a console, way too slow)

More than anything, I was just explaining my thinking of why 8 256mb chips would be cheaper in bulk per mb, than 6 chips.

Edit: Thinking about 512mb Videocards got me thinking that you are probably right and they are making batches of 6000, or at least a number divisible by 6 and 8.
 
No because they buy the 2Gbit/256MB chips in millions, not in 6 or 8 pieces bulk => 1,5GB are cheaper than 2GB. And while RAM is cheap these days the 512MB more would easily cost them dozens of millions every year.
 
About the GPU I am starting to think that is possible that the Mobility Radeon HD 5650 is the the GPU, the reasons are:

*The 450Mhz has a performance of 360 GFLOPS, 50% more than the Xbox 360 and PS3.
*104mm^2 at 40nm, the size is around the same one of Flipper and Hollywood entire chips.
*15W of power consumption, ideal for the type of box that Nintendo is using for the console.

What do you think?
 
Nightbringer said:
About the GPU I am starting to think that is possible that the Mobility Radeon HD 5650 is the the GPU, the reasons are:

*The 450Mhz has a performance of 360 GFLOPS, 50% more than the Xbox 360 and PS3.
*104mm^2 at 40nm, the size is around the same one of Flipper and Hollywood entire chips.
*15W of power consumption, ideal for the type of box that Nintendo is using for the console.

What do you think?
Why would they use a gimped mobile GPU?
 
Nightbringer said:
About the GPU I am starting to think that is possible that the Mobility Radeon HD 5650 is the the GPU, the reasons are:

*The 450Mhz has a performance of 360 GFLOPS, 50% more than the Xbox 360 and PS3.
*104mm^2 at 40nm, the size is around the same one of Flipper and Hollywood entire chips.
*15W of power consumption, ideal for the type of box that Nintendo is using for the console.

What do you think?

We now have an AMD rep officially stating that it's using a R700 series chip, Marc Diana? I believe is his name. So it has to be an HD4000 series chip, but whatever they use will likely be very different from a PC GPU, and I doubt they would go with a mobility chip.

Also the 50% more processing power than PS360 was a number pulled out of thin air by an unnamed developer using an early dev unit, that we now know was under clocked.

Thank you for doing the research though, I do agree that the size of the box has me worried, but I think they can get about 80-100watts worth of TDP inside that box, especially if it's a 1 chip APU.
 
Nightbringer said:
About the GPU I am starting to think that is possible that the Mobility Radeon HD 5650 is the the GPU, the reasons are:

*The 450Mhz has a performance of 360 GFLOPS, 50% more than the Xbox 360 and PS3.
*104mm^2 at 40nm, the size is around the same one of Flipper and Hollywood entire chips.
*15W of power consumption, ideal for the type of box that Nintendo is using for the console.

What do you think?
They wouldn't need a bigger case and more cooling then. From looking at the case, I would assume a TDP of 40 to 60W - even 80W should be possible. And I expect the GPU to account for two thirds to three quarters of the overall TDP.
 
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