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[bgassassin]

^ I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but that troll at the end of the video makes me wonder.

With Ghost Recon and the new Team Meat game being DD on the Wii U, it seems to be a pretty freaking HUGE step up from their past/current services.

That's both good and sad at the same time.

But seeing the effort from what little we hear is very promising.

Do you guys think that part of the reason the 3DS failed to garner optimal sales is because it was released prematurely?

If so, could that effect the release of the Wii U?

I don't think 3DS released prematurely. Nintendo just tried to hard to stay out of the way to let 3rd parties shine and it came back to bite them hard.

The affect I see with the Wii U would be better 1st party support out of the gate, but not to the point where it puts them right back in the situation of overwhelming 3rd parties. There's a delicate balance they have to find.

Link?

Welcome back.

But that logic means that the PS4/Xbox 720 will be irrelevant two years after their release when Nintendo releases the Wii Z. Not an argument that holds up.

Pretty much this. Then again I keep seeing it said that Nintendo will be a third party by then so I guess we shouldn't expect that.[/sarcasm]

 

[1-D_FTW]

I thought the WiiU thing was just a troll because Super Meat Boy never made it to Wii.

I'm pretty sure it was.

 

[Buddha Beam]

don't think 3DS released prematurely. Nintendo just tried to hard to stay out of the way to let 3rd parties shine and it came back to bite them hard.

The affect I see with the Wii U would be better 1st party support out of the gate, but not to the point where it puts them right back in the situation of overwhelming 3rd parties. There's a delicate balance they have to find.

That's my take on the matter, too. Nintendo said right off the bat that they were leaving the 3DS launch up to third parties and third parties completely fucked it up. Again.

I just hope this means that going forward Nintendo learns to stop trusting these companies. I want the WiiU launch to be a Nintendo dominated launch. Nintendo can and should define their systems while third parties should make games that cater to that definition.

 

[bgassassin]

That's my take on the matter, too. Nintendo said right off the bat that they were leaving the 3DS launch up to third parties and third parties completely fucked it up. Again.

I just hope this means that going forward Nintendo learns to stop trusting these companies. I want the WiiU launch to be a Nintendo dominated launch. Nintendo can and should define their systems while third parties should make games that cater to that definition.

The latter part of your post is why some people want Nintendo to make or acquire a 1st party game that is like what a lot of 3rd pary devs make. The Wii is a good example of them going all out to bring in non-gamers and 3rd parties catering to that standard.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

That's my take on the matter, too. Nintendo said right off the bat that they were leaving the 3DS launch up to third parties and third parties completely fucked it up. Again.

I just hope this means that going forward Nintendo learns to stop trusting these companies. I want the WiiU launch to be a Nintendo dominated launch. Nintendo can and should define their systems while third parties should make games that cater to that definition.

I think there's definitely a valid argument to be made that Nintendo should drive their systems and let 3rd parties get a hit where they can, that would probably be good for business...not for growth. Personally I think Iwata needs to follow the formula of what made the SNES successful from both a first and third party perspective.

 

[AceBandage]

I think there's definitely a valid argument to be made that Nintendo should drive their systems and let 3rd parties get a hit where they can, that would probably be good for business...not for growth. Personally I think Iwata needs to follow the formula of what made the SNES successful from both a first and third party perspective.

Have your only competition be Sega?

 

[TheExplodingHead]

Have your only competition be Sega?

In a sense yes, and no. I think Nintendo would do well to continue to not directly compete with Sony and MS, and sort of do their own thing and offer a different service. So in that respect I do think it's best to ignore the competition. Obviously there needs to be a serviceable online model, achievements support, DLC, updates and patches, etc. But aside from that I think Nintendo can ignore them and outsell them by being first to market and living rooms.

Another parallel to the SNES would be third party support by proxy of a huge install base and adequate hardware. I think if the Wii had been near the 360 hardware-wise this drought would be non-existent, so that's another issue. But I think a perfect storm of timing, price, hardware and unique experience can replicate the SNES to a degree if third-parties are coaxed into supporting the platform on the same level.

 

[bgassassin]

Beyond3D speculates about Wii U's GPU.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/118/1

It's long, but it's an interesting and detailed read. Also this among other things stuck out to me.

Note that you should consider the RV730 and RV740 as existing examples, given that the chip that Nintendo will use is a customized derivative, as stated earlier, that is not yet “taped out” (ready for production). In fact, at the present time, from what we heard from sources close to the matter, no close-to-final silicon exists in the wild (development kits) or in the labs yet.

EDIT: First link posted was wrong.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

Beyond3D speculates about Wii U's GPU.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/118/1

It's long, but it's an interesting and detailed read. Also this among other things stuck out to me.



EDIT: First link posted was wrong.

with the state of business loss they are in right now and the 3DS, I would try to increase how powerful this chip is.

I'm a little worried for the Wii U now that we have seen the 3DS underperform

 

[watershed]

Beyond3D speculates about Wii U's GPU.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/118/1

It's long, but it's an interesting and detailed read. Also this among other things stuck out to me.

EDIT: First link posted was wrong.

This is very interesting. Firstly is suggests that no one knows how powerful the system will be, in terms of its top limits because Nintendo has yet to decide. It also suggests though that the wii u is still a ways away from entering production. And lastly it supports my belief that Nintendo revealed the wii u way too early, possibly as a response to all those leaks.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

This is very interesting. Firstly is suggests that no one knows how powerful the system will be, in terms of its top limits because Nintendo has yet to decide. It also suggests though that the wii u is still a ways away from entering production. And lastly it supports my belief that Nintendo revealed the wii u way too early, possibly as a response to all those leaks.

I don't think there's any question that the Wii U reveal was rushed, it was definitely the most rushed and poorly planned presentation I've seen in a while. In retrospect I wish Nintendo would have just revealed a teaser ala the Wiimote TGS teaser and focused on 3DS and Wii. It would have probably sparked more hype as opposed to confusion and dissatisfaction.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a total shift next E3 with a name change, different looking console, a revised Wii U tablet, and actual concrete info on services and real games shown.

 

[bgassassin]

I didn't the get indication that the article indicated Wii U was shown too early. However the mishandling of its debut along with some of the early leaks may be a blessing in disguise for gamers. I also like how they gave emphasis to something some of us have been saying ad nauseam, that the Wii is the only time Nintendo released an underpowered console.

with the state of business loss they are in right now and the 3DS, I would try to increase how powerful this chip is.

I'm a little worried for the Wii U now that we have seen the 3DS underperform

From that part of the article I quoted and with what Vigil said, they may very well still be looking at increasing the power.

 

[Zoramon089]

This is very interesting. Firstly is suggests that no one knows how powerful the system will be, in terms of its top limits because Nintendo has yet to decide. It also suggests though that the wii u is still a ways away from entering production. And lastly it supports my belief that Nintendo revealed the wii u way too early, possibly as a response to all those leaks.

But the thing about this theory is that looking at their conference, what would they have talked about had they not revealed the Wii U? More DS stuff? An on stage demo of Zelda?

 

[watershed]

But the thing about this theory is that looking at their conference, what would they have talked about had they not revealed the Wii U? More DS stuff? An on stage demo of Zelda?

Hopefully more 3ds stuff, one last push for the ds which I believe still has some good games coming including kirby mass attack and Layton 4! And definitely the wii which didn't get any time outside of zelda. Why not show off Rhythm Heaven, Kirby, and whatever else there is left? I honestly thought this E3 would be about the 3ds, 3ds eshop upcoming games which went live just the day before and a last push for the wii's final holiday season. Then do some wii u teasing like they did the revolution or something. If you saw the media Nintendo put out after E3 there was plenty other stuff they could have highlighted.

 

[Jin34]

Beyond3D speculates about Wii U's GPU.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/118/1

It's long, but it's an interesting and detailed read. Also this among other things stuck out to me.



EDIT: First link posted was wrong.

This should have it's own thread imo.

 

[lordfroakie]

This should have it's own thread imo.

No! We have enough Wii U threads already

 

[ShockingAlberto]

This should have it's own thread imo.

It seems to mostly he hearsay and speculation.

 

[Jin34]

It seems to mostly he hearsay and speculation.

Yeah but hearsay from sources and speculation from Beyond 3D is not the same as ones from gaming journalists. Beyond 3D knows it's GPUs inside and out.

 

[watershed]

People should give it a read though, its very interesting and at minimum it supports the basic idea that I think most of use have which is that pretty much any game made for the ps4 or xbox 720 will be scalable to the wii u without the visual disparity seen today between wii games and ps3/360 games. The article uses the analogy of running the same game on minimum pc requirements versus max settings. Personally I hope it will be more like mid range settings vs max settings but even then most people can't tell the difference.

 

[BurntPork]

Yeah but hearsay from sources and speculation from Beyond 3D is not the same as ones from gaming journalists. Beyond 3D knows it's GPUs inside and out.

But we know how the thread is going to go already.

 

[bgassassin]

If they had named the article differently I would have considered a different thread, but the naming flies in the face of the purpose of this thread. But I'll leave it up to mod discretion.

But we know how the thread is going to go already.

Sad but true.

EDIT: I found the article through Google, but after visiting Beyond3D's forum I see it was linked by AlStrong who based on the names given credit was one of the contributors and is a poster here on GAF.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I didn't the get indication that the article indicated Wii U was shown too early. However the mishandling of its debut along with some of the early leaks may be a blessing in disguise for gamers. I also like how they gave emphasis to something some of us have been saying ad nauseam, that the Wii is the only time Nintendo released an underpowered console.



From that part of the article I quoted and with what Vigil said, they may very well still be looking at increasing the power.

well the fact that they have nothing final gives us hope that the power can increase.
I can't imagine taking so long for a low powered chip. Nintendo has an image problem here the DS super successful followed by a 3DS bomb in comparison. So people will be looking closely at Wii to Wii U and thinking the same downturn will happen which honestly is a given since the Wii was red hot in sales for so long.


Can't wait for next year around this time

 

[bgassassin]

I agree. There would be no need for the constant talk about the hardware not being final if the GPU was going to be pretty weak. When Vigil talked about redoing their budget if Wii U ends up being more powerful shows even devs don't know how far the final design will push things power-wise.

 

[z0m3le]

Read that gpu U article, big waste of time... It could be useful for some people who are super negative about the Wii U's suspected power, but the conclusion of minimal game settings vs ultra high end pc is rubbish. the HD4870 can play any game that the 580GTX can play with a difference of medium settings to ultra settings. No console within the next 2 years will have a 580GTX inside of it, even if you shrink it to a 20nm process, you only lose 40% of the TDP (according to IBM) so the 300watt+ TDP would only shrink to 180watt+ for the GPU alone, you are easily talking about 100watt+ for the rest of a system like that... To put this horse to rest, the 20nm process won't be here till 2014+.

The Wii U will probably not have a 4870 in it either, I would expect it to be reasonable 4750 levels... to be honest articles like this are the worst, they play up facts and "history" and then throw all of it out the window and show their bias with statements like Wii U will end up minimal graphical settings compared to PS4's ultra high end settings. If they use went with their reasonable parts on each and every part they listed, they would end up with mid to low but not bare minimal requirements that they trout as a reasonable conclusion.

Opinionated articles are fine, but they should try not to come off so reasonably sound when their conclusion is so flawed. -Sorry gaf, /end rant.

 

[bgassassin]

I didn't take any bias from it. That part you mentioned came off to me as a "worst case scenario" when looking at what they said leading up to it.

 

[lwilliams3]

Beyond3D speculates about Wii U's GPU.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/118/1

It's long, but it's an interesting and detailed read. Also this among other things stuck out to me.



EDIT: First link posted was wrong.

Thanks for the link. I was looking forward to such a detailed analysis

 

[Screenboy]

They do this one generation with one system... and that's apparently all Nintendo has ever done...

DS, Wii, 3DS, Wii U (possibly)...

 

[EDarkness]

DS, Wii, 3DS, Wii U (possibly)...

Handhelds are whole different beast and always have been. Even so they've always been more capable with each generation. The 3DS is continuing that tradition.

The Wii is only console where they've been far behind the curve. I say it was a mistake they'll only make once, at least if they want to stay competitive throughout the cycle. The problem this time around is that they're going to start the next generation off. They don't have any idea what their competitors are going to do, so they have to make some guesses. We'll see how they work it out in a few months.

 

[BurntPork]

DS, Wii, 3DS, Wii U (possibly)...

Called it. Do I get a cookie?

 

[Axkil aka StabMasterArson]

That's my take on the matter, too. Nintendo said right off the bat that they were leaving the 3DS launch up to third parties and third parties completely fucked it up. Again.

I just hope this means that going forward Nintendo learns to stop trusting these companies. I want the WiiU launch to be a Nintendo dominated launch. Nintendo can and should define their systems while third parties should make games that cater to that definition.

I agree. I wish i could say right now "Nintendo, quit kissing up to these assholes!" but there is WiiU launch coming up so they gotta play nice all over again.

 

[Reckoner]

I'm expecting a change of name and almost a new unveiling of the console at TGS or whatever event Nintendo will be, if they learned the lesson with the 3DS.

 

[Mr_Brit]

I agree. There would be no need for the constant talk about the hardware not being final if the GPU was going to be pretty weak. When Vigil talked about redoing their budget if Wii U ends up being more powerful shows even devs don't know how far the final design will push things power-wise.

Even if the console doesn't end up being that more powerful, it should still have much better textures as at a minimum, there should be 1GB of memory in there as opposed to 512mb in PS3 and 360. Why wouldn't Vigil talk about it having better textures regardless of whatever the power of the console ends up at?

 

[BurntPork]

Even if the console doesn't end up being that more powerful, it should still have much better textures as at a minimum, there should be 1GB of memory in there as opposed to 512mb in PS3 and 360. Why wouldn't Vigil talk about it having better textures regardless of whatever the power of the console ends up at?

That's just how Nintendo operates, though. RAM is the last thing they skimp on. Also, third-party devs are going to ask for more RAM, and Nintendo listened with 3DS. I won't be shocked if it has even more than that, looking at the fact that the 3DS is on-par with the PSP and yet has four times as much RAM.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

That's just how Nintendo operates, though. RAM is the last thing they skimp on. Also, third-party devs are going to ask for more RAM, and Nintendo listened with 3DS. I won't be shocked if it has even more than that, looking at the fact that the 3DS is on-par with the PSP and yet has four times as much RAM.

How much RAM does 3DS have? I thought it was 96 MB plus 32 MB for the OS, for 128MB total.

 

[madara]

That's my take on the matter, too. Nintendo said right off the bat that they were leaving the 3DS launch up to third parties and third parties completely fucked it up. Again.

I just hope this means that going forward Nintendo learns to stop trusting these companies. I want the WiiU launch to be a Nintendo dominated launch. Nintendo can and should define their systems while third parties should make games that cater to that definition.

Lets not be overly noble here for Nintendo, they didnt have necessary software for launch either there is no question of that so its easy for them to say that. Was very rushed and WiiU unveil felt even worse.

 

[wsippel]

The B3D article is interesting. Where's the 16MB cache coming from, though? That would be huge for a console CPU.

How much RAM does 3DS have? I thought it was 96 MB plus 32 MB for the OS, for 128MB total.

It's 128MB plus VRAM. We don't know how much is reserved for the OS. It was 32MB for early beta firmware, that's all we know. What we do know is that Nintendo tried to keep the OS as small as possible, which is also why they decided to use NetFront NX with it's impressive 12MB footprint.

 

[BurntPork]

The B3D article is interesting. Where's the 16MB cache coming from, though? That would be huge for a console CPU.



It's 128MB plus VRAM. We don't know how much is reserved for the OS. It was 32MB for early beta firmware, that's all we know. What we do know is that Nintendo tried to keep the OS as small as possible, which is also why they decided to use NetFront NX with it's impressive 12MB footprint.

That's for GPU, I think.

 

[pestul]

I hope Nintendo doesn't skimp on the amount of ram though. Yes, they usually go for the highest performance variant out there, but it could make downports from PS4/720 a lot more difficult in the case of huge world games that require the ram. It sounds as if the cpu/gpu will be more than capable of producing a medium quality version of a port. Yes, there will be noticeable differences, but if they launch much earlier than their competitors it would be a huge advantage. Heavy tessellated games could be a problem, but we don't really know what is going into this custom gpu yet.

 

[DECK'ARD]

I hope Nintendo doesn't skimp on the amount of ram though. Yes, they usually go for the highest performance variant out there, but it could make downports from PS4/720 a lot more difficult in the case of huge world games that require the ram. It sounds as if the cpu/gpu will be more than capable of producing a medium quality version of a port. Yes, there will be noticeable differences, but if they launch much earlier than their competitors it would be a huge advantage. Heavy tessellated games could be a problem, but we don't really know what is going into this custom gpu yet.

Yeah RAM is the unknown quantity of next-gen and could turn out to be a sticking point further down the road.

After it paid off for Microsoft last time round I can't see them skimping next time, and that would force Sony's hand. Nintendo will have already played their cards though.

Nintendo will be planning ahead to some degree, but with the controller taking resources away from the console itself it's a worry how much they will future-proof it.

 

[TheExplodingHead]

I hope Nintendo doesn't skimp on the amount of ram though. Yes, they usually go for the highest performance variant out there, but it could make downports from PS4/720 a lot more difficult in the case of huge world games that require the ram. It sounds as if the cpu/gpu will be more than capable of producing a medium quality version of a port. Yes, there will be noticeable differences, but if they launch much earlier than their competitors it would be a huge advantage. Heavy tessellated games could be a problem, but we don't really know what is going into this custom gpu yet.

I can easily see the Wii U having a memory pool similar to the 360 (going purely off of dev's saying "ease of use"). So I'm thinking realistically it'll be 1.5-2GB of RAM, wishful thinking would be 3GB (2.75GB usable) with the remaining quarter being used for streaming/OS/etc.

I'm not seeing the next Xbox or PS4 going over 3GB, so I expect the Wii U to have 1.5GB bare minimum.

 

[bgassassin]

Thanks for the link. I was looking forward to such a detailed analysis

Yeah. Seeing it from people who are very knowledgeable on the subject makes a big difference.

Even if the console doesn't end up being that more powerful, it should still have much better textures as at a minimum, there should be 1GB of memory in there as opposed to 512mb in PS3 and 360. Why wouldn't Vigil talk about it having better textures regardless of whatever the power of the console ends up at?

Because they said they aren't going to put forth the effort to do it whether the hardware changes were minor or major. And others previously stated how "bad" they were with PC "improvements" anyway. Why even ask a question they already answered?

Lets not be overly noble here for Nintendo, they didnt have necessary software for launch either there is no question of that so its easy for them to say that. Was very rushed and WiiU unveil felt even worse.

I wouldn't call that being overly noble. They didn't have necessary software at launch because of their apparent decision not to. That's where we'd be placing blame on them. Seemed like their plan was to let the 3rd parties have the launch to themselves and then come out with their big 1st party stuff a few months later.

The B3D article is interesting. Where's the 16MB cache coming from, though? That would be huge for a console CPU.

Sounded like they were just throwing it out there for the purpose of the discussion.

I hope Nintendo doesn't skimp on the amount of ram though. Yes, they usually go for the highest performance variant out there, but it could make downports from PS4/720 a lot more difficult in the case of huge world games that require the ram. It sounds as if the cpu/gpu will be more than capable of producing a medium quality version of a port. Yes, there will be noticeable differences, but if they launch much earlier than their competitors it would be a huge advantage. Heavy tessellated games could be a problem, but we don't really know what is going into this custom gpu yet.

Yeah the amount of customization will definitely be key. And maybe recent things might get them to add another 256-512MB of memory to the rumored 1GB. I did find it interesting their mention of viability of something even the equivalent of a 5870 due to heat for any of the next consoles.

 

[Luigiv]

The B3D article is interesting. Where's the 16MB cache coming from, though? That would be huge for a console CPU.



It's 128MB plus VRAM. We don't know how much is reserved for the OS. It was 32MB for early beta firmware, that's all we know. What we do know is that Nintendo tried to keep the OS as small as possible, which is also why they decided to use NetFront NX with it's impressive 12MB footprint.

Wait the 3DS browser only uses 12MB? That's really impressive. Still, at the same time, it makes me want a dedicated, fully featured browser app all the more (much in the same way the camera app has both a background and main app mode).

 

[AlStrong]

The B3D article is interesting. Where's the 16MB cache coming from, though?

:x

 

[FreeMufasa]

I'm expecting a change of name and almost a new unveiling of the console at TGS or whatever event Nintendo will be, if they learned the lesson with the 3DS.

At the least, I think they'll change how the console looks like. Waaay to similar to the Wii. I can already see people going into shops and saying "Do you have any U controllers for the Wii?".

 

[blu]

That's for GPU, I think.

Did you read the article?

 

[KrawlMan]

At the least, I think they'll change how the console looks like. Waaay to similar to the Wii. I can already see people going into shops and saying "Do you have any U controllers for the Wii?".

The only reason I want a change in how it looks would be to make sure it has a way to put it on it's side (vertical).

 

[Xun]

I'm expecting a change of name and almost a new unveiling of the console at TGS or whatever event Nintendo will be, if they learned the lesson with the 3DS.

God I hope so.

I doubt it would happen though.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

I can already see people going into shops and saying "Do you have any U controllers for the Wii?".

This will happen without further demos/explanation from Nintendo.

Purely anecdotal evidence, but at my office people know I keep up with Nintendo stuff. I've had multiple people ask me about "the new Wii controller with the screen." They don't recognize it as a new system, just a Wii peripheral. Showing its potential by using Wii Sports in the sizzle reel didn't help matters either.

Maybe they can brand the CONTROLLER as the WiiU and call the system Nintendo _______.

Like you play Duck Hunt with the Zapper.

You play Nintendo HD using the WiiU.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

But the thing about this theory is that looking at their conference, what would they have talked about had they not revealed the Wii U? More DS stuff? An on stage demo of Zelda?

Xenoblade and The Last Story. :x

 

[DECK'ARD]

This will happen without further demos/explanation from Nintendo.

Purely anecdotal evidence, but at my office people know I keep up with Nintendo stuff. I've had multiple people ask me about "the new Wii controller with the screen." They don't recognize it as a new system, just a Wii peripheral. Showing its potential by using Wii Sports in the sizzle reel didn't help matters either.

Maybe they can brand the CONTROLLER as the WiiU and call the system Nintendo _______.

Like you play Duck Hunt with the Zapper.

You play Nintendo HD using the WiiU.

I'd like Nintendo U personally.

The whole concept is a bit of a clusterfuck at the moment though. Can see why the want to keep the Wii name, because of the success and especially with the one controller issue, but its name just like the unveiling is sending a confused message. And as the 3DS has shown, keeping the name doesn't necessarily help things.

Weighing up the pros and cons though, I think they do need a fresh start with a console that sounds and seems new in every way. They can communicate BC without needing the Wii name, and whereas before the Wii it was the Nintendo name that was seen as restricting now I'd argue it's the Wii name that has too many limited connotations.