Wii U Speculation Thread of Brains Beware: Wii U Re-Unveiling At E3 2012

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BurntPork said:
I just double checked.

Original 360: 403.3 sq. in.
Wii U: 128.5 sq. in.

So, yeah. It's actually slightly less than a third. That's why I feel that it can't possibly have more than 480SPs at 40nm, and 28nm isn't an option unless they delay it into early-mid 2013. (Granted, it already looks like they've internally delayed it to holiday 2012.) It's also why the CPU can't possibly exceed Xenon by a significant amount.

Anyone hoping for 800SPs under any circumstance will be disappointed, and yes, this does mean that PS4/XB3 games would be maxed-out compared to Wii U on minimum settings at a lower resolution and possibly an unstable frame rate on many games. If Nintendo doesn't make some major changes, it'll have to sell gangbusters to get AAA games during the later half of the generation not because they can't be ported, but rather because the graphical difference will be so huge that gamers will not feel like they're getting the full experience on Wii U.
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I understand arguments based on volume but wouldn't it be more relevant to consider surface for thermal phenomena ? WiiU may have a more favorable surface/surface comparision than the volume/volume which is equal 0.31 ?

Maybe this would allow us to consider components than could be roughly 20% to 25% more powerful than what is envisioned in the current discussion in the thread ?
 
BurntPork said:
There's a 0% chance of Nintendo being dumb enough to use DDR3 in the final unit. It'll be GDDR3 or GDDR5.
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Quad channel DDR3 is very, very faat, and the latency is pretty damn good as well. I think we all know by now that Nintendo absolutely loves low latency memory, so there you go.
 
I'm starting to think that Nintendo really took some Wii U parts back to the drawing board. At E3 it seemed that an early 2012 release was incredibly likely. Given the fact that they announced ports of fall 2011 games and Darksiders II as an important launch game. It's probably for the better that they wait untill fall 2012 and all the important first party games are ready I guess.
 
Kenka said:
I understand arguments based on volume but wouldn't it be more relevant to consider surface for thermal phenomena ? WiiU may have a more favorable surface/surface comparision than the volume/volume which is equal 0.31 ?

Maybe this would allow us to consider components than could be roughly 20% to 25% more powerful than what is envisioned in the current discussion in the thread ?
Click to expand...
The surface area is about half that of the 360 (205.1 vs 392.5), and the fact that it can be laid on it's side (as far as we know, it has to be) reduces that even more. Besides, the size of the cooling system is what's more important, and there just isn't enough room for a decently sized heatsink or fan.

I just hope that i'm wrong in thinking that Nintendo is sacrificing power just to keep it small. That would be ridiculously short-sighted.
 
Kenka said:
I understand arguments based on volume but wouldn't it be more relevant to consider surface for thermal phenomena ? WiiU may have a more favorable surface/surface comparision than the volume/volume which is equal 0.31 ?

Maybe this would allow us to consider components than could be roughly 20% to 25% more powerful than what is envisioned in the current discussion in the thread ?
Click to expand...
I believe cooling capacity increased significantly. There are more and bigger inlets and outlets, and the air duct is quite a bit larger. The fan is a lot bigger as well. That's a very rough guess, but I assume 60W to 80W should be possible, three to four times the Wii's thermal budget.
 
phosphor112 said:
I doubt there is an intake fan there. That would be some weird ass size. 40 is the smallest common fan, but that vent surely is smaller than that 40mm vent on back.
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That could be a 60mm fan on the back, though. I didn't look at the case measurements, just tried to guess based on that tiny pic.
 
Mr Pork goes back to size arguments.

You can probably look at reductions in case sizes due to a 2009 chip being more efficient than a 2003/2004 one.
No internal hard drive
No GC control ports and memory card slots.
And Nintendo Magic.

GC was smaller and more powerful than a ps2 and held it's own with an XBox.

I know not wholly the same, but you seen how much stuff Apple packs into a Mac Mini or an iMac.

Nintendo know console design, better than anyone.
You have developers telling you it's already at PS3/360 levels and still a year away from release.
I mean judging by your logic that's not possible due to the sizes comparisons.

Who's to say they aren't using variants of mobile CPUs I mean my phone has a dual core 1ghz processor.
But judging by your size logics it shouldn't be possible as it's like 150times less surface area and space than a 360 or a slim
 
StevieP said:
That could be a 60mm fan on the back, though. I didn't look at the case measurements, just tried to guess based on that tiny pic.
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Regardless, that vent on the side isn't square, which would cause issues for not only mounting the fan in the case, but as well as causing strain on the fan for being partially up against a plastic wall.
 
DefectiveReject said:
Mr Pork goes back to size arguments.

You can probably look at reductions in case sizes due to a 2009 chip being more efficient than a 2003/2004 one.
No internal hard drive
No GC control ports and memory card slots.
And Nintendo Magic.
Click to expand...
No complicated 8cm slot loading drive (which was actually the biggest, most complex and most expensive part of the Wii)
SoC

Not to mention the Wii heatsink was a shoddy piece of crap. Not an ounce of copper, tiny ass fan, no heatpipes - nothing. You could do a lot more with a case of that size, not to mention a 30% bigger case with less legacy bullshit inside.
 
DefectiveReject said:
Mr Pork goes back to size arguments.

You can probably look at reductions in case sizes due to a 2009 chip being more efficient than a 2003/2004 one.
No internal hard drive
No GC control ports and memory card slots.
And Nintendo Magic.

GC was smaller and more powerful than a ps2 and held it's own with an XBox.

I know not wholly the same, but you seen how much stuff Apple packs into a Mac Mini or an iMac.

Nintendo know console design, better than anyone.
You have developers telling you it's already at PS3/360 levels and still a year away from release.
I mean judging by your logic that's not possible due to the sizes comparisons.

Who's to say they aren't using variants of mobile CPUs I mean my phone has a dual core 1ghz processor.
But judging by your size logics it shouldn't be possible as it's like 150times less surface area and space than a 360 or a slim
Click to expand...
First of all, stop using magic as an argument.

Second, times have changed. The basic architecture of Wii U is like a more modern 360. They won't be able to pull off what they did with GCN. Not even the best engineer in the world could figure out a way to stuff a full RV770 and a high-clocked CPU in there. It's physically impossible. Unless God is real and he's the one Nintendo hired to design Wii U, it can't be a powerhouse. That box can draw 100W, tops.
 
BurntPork said:
First of all, stop using magic as an argument.

Second, times have changed. The basic architecture of Wii U is like a more modern 360. They won't be able to pull off what they did with GCN. Not even the best engineer in the world could figure out a way to stuff a full RV770 and a high-clocked CPU in there. It's physically impossible. Unless God is real and he's the one Nintendo hired to design Wii U, it can't be a powerhouse. That box can draw 100W, tops.
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Wrong.
It's doing it already.
You've done this since the day you joined.
You have no idea what's in there, but please stop with the 360 crap. It's not more like a 360 at all. It's a Nintendo machine, not a 360. And yeah I will compare GC power wise when Microsoft needed something the size of the original XBox to match a GC magic box. Magic magic magic. They both had the same constraints upothem at the time for power and cooling. Nintendo aced it.
Hey devs build games to this spec, but they ain't gonna work as we don't have the space needed in the console.
Nintendo magic is being on your 6th console. You kinda know how to make things work more............efficiently.
Things get smaller and more efficient, deal with it. Leave it the fuck alone and one day you may lose the junior status.
 
DefectiveReject said:
Wrong.
It's doing it already.
You've done this since the day you joined.
You have no idea what's in there, but please stop with the 360 crap. It's not more like a 360 at all. It's a Nintendo machine, not a 360. And yeah I will compare GC power wise when Microsoft needed something the size of the original XBox to match a GC magic box. Magic magic magic
Hey devs build games to this spec, but they ain't gonna work as we don't have the space needed in the console.
Nintendo magic is being on your 6th console. You kinda know how to make things work more............efficiently.
Things get smaller and more efficient, deal with it. Leave it the fuck alone and one day you may lose the junior status.
Click to expand...
Um, "360 crap?" From what we know, it's using a PPC CPU and a Radeon GPU. Those facts are 100% confirmed. It really is pretty much a modernized 360 in terms of basic architecture. No one is going to deny that they're similar. The GCN and XBox had totally different architechures, and Nintendo ended up choosing the more efficient parts. They don't have that advantage this time. They just have the advantage of using newer parts, which allows it to be 2-3 times the 360 while using the same amount of power as the 360 Slim.

If I'm going to be junior forever for not being a deluded fanboy who believes that Nintendo is capable of miracles, so be it.
 
I posted this on B3D, so I might as well post it here, too: A lot of the Wii U design was done in India (that is neither rumor nor speculation, by the way). AMD and IBM both have research facilities there. And some guy on the PPC4xx team there was doing a project with US and Japanese teams, between 2009 and 2011. The Wii U GPU was in development at AMD India at the same time. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.


BurntPork said:
Um, "360 crap?" From what we know, it's using a PPC CPU and a Radeon GPU.
Click to expand...
360 uses a really bad PPC CPU and a really old Radeon, though.
 
BurntPork said:
Um, "360 crap?" From what we know, it's using a PPC CPU and a Radeon GPU. Those facts are 100% confirmed. It really is pretty much a modernized 360 in terms of basic architecture. No one is going to deny that they're similar. The GCN and XBox had totally different architechures, and Nintendo ended up choosing the more efficient parts. They don't have that advantage this time. They just have the advantage of using newer parts, which allows it to be 2-3 times the 360 while using the same amount of power as the 360 Slim.

If I'm going to be junior forever for not being a deluded fanboy who believes that Nintendo is capable of miracles, so be it.
Click to expand...
You're still only a junior? I see you posting way into the evenings every day. Keep shooting for those stars, one day dreams will come true :) btw what's after junior?
 
wsippel said:
360 uses a really bad PPC CPU and a really old Radeon, though.
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Hence the "modern" part. There's no doubt that Xenos and R700 are "relatives" in many ways. Though, I guess you can argue that the CPU might be very different. Still, they're close enough that porting is relatively easy.
 
herzogzwei1989 said:
Xbox 360 doesn't use a Radeon GPU at all, it uses the custom designed C1/Xenos, which is not based on any PC Radeon card.
Click to expand...
I was quoting for emphasis. In a way, even Hollywood is "Radeon". In fact, R300 was based on Hollwood (Flipper, actually).
 
Axkil aka StabMasterArson said:
You're still only a junior? I see you posting way into the evenings every day. Keep shooting for those stars, one day dreams will come true :) btw what's after junior?
Click to expand...
Banned Member.
 
Reading wsippel's posts from the last pages make the Wii U sound not too promising. I hope they price it right if it's really just comparable to PS3 and 360...
 
wsippel said:
I posted this on B3D, so I might as well post it here, too: A lot of the Wii U design was done in India (that is neither rumor nor speculation, by the way). AMD and IBM both have research facilities there. And some guy on the PPC4xx team there was doing a project with US and Japanese teams, between 2009 and 2011. The Wii U GPU was in development at AMD India at the same time. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.
Click to expand...
Detective GAF never stops to amaze me.
 
Quick question, has someone made a thread for Iwata's translated investor q and a yet? I just logged on and there doesn't seem to be one.
 
BurntPork said:
No, we're using physics. THERE'S A DIFFERENCE
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The period came too soon on your first sentence. It should read "No, we're using physics incorrectly and with too little information to draw any useful conclusions."
 
artwalknoon said:
Quick question, has someone made a thread for Iwata's translated investor q and a yet? I just logged on and there doesn't seem to be one.
Click to expand...
Im not sure if it got a separate thread but the translation of the q&a has been posted.
 
Lol deluded fanboy.
Have a word. Just because I think you're wrong I'm a fanboy. Lol

I've just ordered (well 2 days ago) a mac mini with server.
Quad core 2ghz processor, 8GB memory, dual 750GB HDD's, shitty GPU, and every connection port under the sun.
All in a 1.4 x 7.7 x 7.7in footprint. 83in3. 40 less than the WiiU. And it draws at maximum 85W of power.

Yeah there's no disc drive in a mini, but there aren't 2 x 750GB HDDs in a WiiU either. So thats likely the same space taken up.

A WiiU doesn't either have a thunderbolt controller, or Ethernet controller...... Oh and did I say the Mini has it's PSU built into that footprint too?? Whereas the WiiU one is external....so more space??

But consider the WiiU will be using far more efficient chip sets (CPU and GPU) as it doesn't need to run a full OS and all that comes with that. It just needs to play games, send video and do some network communication.

It's doable. Yeah the GPU needs more space (much more) than a mac minis shitty one but it has that space. 40in3 plus a PSU.
But it shows what you can do with a lack of space and efficient, clever design.
 
Instro said:
Im not sure if it got a separate thread but the translation of the q&a has been posted.
Click to expand...
Hmm, seems like there should be one but I'm too busy to parse all that at the moment. Usually the q and a's create quite a discussion on Gaf, is there not a lot in it this time or something?
 
wrowa said:
Reading wsippel's posts from the last pages make the Wii U sound not too promising. I hope they price it right if it's really just comparable to PS3 and 360...
Click to expand...
Wouldn't say that. As far as I can tell, my speculative configuration would be rather capable, actually. Basically another Gamecube. Not very impressive on paper, but quite powerful in a real world environment. So powerful, in fact, that I actually think I'm overshooting.
 
DefectiveReject said:
Lol deluded fanboy.
Have a word. Just because I think you're wrong I'm a fanboy. Lol

I've just ordered (well 2 days ago) a mac mini with server.
Quad core 2ghz processor, 8GB memory, dual 750GB HDD's, shitty GPU, and every connection port under the sun.
All in a 1.4 x 7.7 x 7.7in footprint. 83in3. 40 less than the WiiU. And it draws at maximum 85W of power.

Yeah there's no disc drive in a mini, but there aren't 2 x 750GB HDDs in a WiiU either. So thats likely the same space taken up.

A WiiU doesn't either have a thunderbolt controller, or Ethernet controller...... Oh and did I say the Mini has it's PSU built into that footprint too?? Whereas the WiiU one is external....so more space??

But consider the WiiU will be using far more efficient chip sets (CPU and GPU) as it doesn't need to run a full OS and all that comes with that. It just needs to play games, send video and do some network communication.

It's doable. Yeah the GPU needs more space (much more) than a mac minis shitty one but it has that space. 40in3 plus a PSU.
But it shows what you can do with a lack of space and efficient, clever design.
Click to expand...
Apple isn't exactly known for cool-running machines. How is the Mac Mini in terms of temps? Also, the Mac Mini uses mobile parts, which come at low yields. Wii U can't be as efficient without dealing with major supply issues and extremely high costs. Finally, I'm willing to bet that 85W is the size of the power supply and not a measurement of the actual power consumption. They can't be compared like that.

And i think you a fanboy because you believe Nintendo is magical. They have great engineers, but costs and physics will limit them.
 
Axkil aka StabMasterArson said:
Hey dude i'm in the same boat....just giving the man props
Click to expand...

And I'm only teasing. ;p

Thunder Monkey said:
I've been arguing about Nintendo on the internet for more than a decade and I really think some of you are very very crazy.
Click to expand...

Welcome back. Enjoy your stay!
 
StevieP said:
That's usually not how the industry has worked in the past.
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I never said otherwise. Again I was saying what I think most would agree is the preferred method of development next gen. Not sure what's hard to understand here.

StevieP said:
AMD would've likely been far higher bang-for-the-buck than a PPE. But they did build these machines when people still actually thought that GHZ matter (thanks Intel!). 3.2ghz PPE sounds a lot nicer than a 2ghz Power 5, despite one running circles around the other.
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Not really sure about that. AMD had what, a 2.4GHz dual core CPU back then with 2 hardware threads IIRC. I think optimized code on the Xenon would produce better performance. As for what type of architecture runs circles around another, that really depends on what you're processing. In terms of supporting 3D and such, Sony and MS made good choices IMO.

Edit:

BurntPork said:
But if we don't get any info by the end of the year and we have to wait all the way until GDC or worse E3, all hype will die and nothing short of a mind-blowing launch line-up and price will prevent another 3DS. They need to say something this year.
Click to expand...

I really think anything revealed this year regarding the Wii-U will be forgotten this time next year, especially by the general public. I understand why they did it, but I don't think it's the best practice to announce your product 12-18 months before it's launch. Keeping the hype train going all that time is much more challenging than building up hype and keeping momentum for 6-8 months when all that you reveal is still somewhat fresh and not a year+ old.
 
BurntPork said:
Apple isn't exactly known for cool-running machines. How is the Mac Mini in terms of temps? Also, the Mac Mini uses mobile parts, which come at low yields. Wii U can't be as efficient without dealing with major supply issues and extremely high costs. Finally, I'm willing to bet that 85W is the size of the power supply and not a measurement of the actual power consumption. They can't be compared like that.

And i think you a fanboy because you believe Nintendo is magical. They have great engineers, but costs and physics will limit them.
Click to expand...
Lol. Loon. Fanboy because I think they are magical. Right. I own each console on the Market (handhelds included). Yeah I prefer Nintendo "games" but that doesn't make me a fanboy.

Yeah the Mac Mini uses a Quad Core Sand Bridge 2.0Ghz intel i7 processor (2635QM).
I did say the WiiU will use a more efficient one though (I.e different as they will do different jobs), but I used it as an example of how you can pack a punch in a small space.
Yeah Macs run hot but so what? Never had one crap out on me yet, regardless of how hot it gets. I'm not gonna sit with a WiiU on my lap playing it.....


And no it's 85W MAXIMUM POWER DRAW in use.
 
Thunder Monkey said:
I've been arguing about Nintendo on the internet for more than a decade and I really think some of you are very very crazy.
Click to expand...
If you knew the kind of shit I've gone through on the internet, you'd understand why I'm crazy.

Hint: I was a mod on a fairly popular Nintendo fan forum run by idiots.

To not make this totally irrelevant, thinking about it, I don't think that Nintendo delayed Wii U beyond September 2012. However, at this point, it's pretty much a sure think that we won't see it again this year. Maybe early next year, but I think Nintendo's actually going to try to avoid building up too much hype until they're sure they'll be able to deliver their strongest launch ever. I'm concerned, however, that Sony or Microsoft will kill all excitement before launch if they wait that long...
 
wsippel said:
OpenCL, basically. Leave it to the GPU.

Also, Xenon is shit. The whole PPE concept is terrible. In-order, long pipeline, not enough cache.
Click to expand...

It's funny how no sooner than after I made my other post that I saw all kinds of things bashing the PPE. I had to get to work so I was gone before reading your response after it. Instead of copy and pasting some of your posts, I'll just respond to this one.

After that Espresso person posted and I started looking more into the 476FP and found a blog or something talking about a person that went by wiiboy (had some numbers in his name) that talked about the Wii U using a 476FP and how it would out perform both Xenon and Cell.

You mentioned the "different take" when looking at eDRAM and a SoC. The press release from IBM makes it tough for me to see that perspective. "IBM's unique embedded DRAM" is what the press release said and when I think unique for IBM I think each core having direct access to its own chunk of embedded L3 while still being able to share the total amount with the others. The rumored dev kit version leaked to you awhile back might be trying to mimic this through a decent amount of L2 cache, but I would assume that to still come up short of proper replication of the final design. After all since this thing is going to be modified in some fashion, maybe it has L3 embedded on something based off of the 476FP? Just a thought.

Also good info about the work in India. I don't know about if it will be an APU, but seeing how picky Nintendo can be about syncing clocks I'm not shocked to hear them utilizing IBM and AMD in such a close manner like that.

McHuj said:
For the last time, this is the engadget quote:



No where is there a direct quote with the word Watson used by IBM in the Engadget article or IBM PR.

Who was it that told this to Engadget? An engineer working on the chip or an over zealous PR person trying to create hype? Did the writer mangle what was said?

You continue to put way to much stock into one tech blogs hype.
Click to expand...

Ha. I just had this discussion on the previous page. What you quoted did come from someone with IBM. The following sentence Engadget said they asked IBM about the clock speed and they wouldn't tell them. If you want to argue about who it came from (e.g. over-zealous PR person) at IBM is one thing, but regardless those statements came from IBM.
 
I'm not judging guys.

I just remember getting into arguments on the power of the GCN based on dimensions back in 2001. Using PS2 and Xbox size dimensions there was no way the GCN could be anywhere near as powerful, Nintendo being realistic with ingame poly counts didn't help.
 
DefectiveReject said:
Lol. Loon. Fanboy because I think they are magical. Right. I own each console on the Market (handhelds included). Yeah I prefer Nintendo "games" but that doesn't make me a fanboy.

Yeah the Mac Mini uses a Quad Core Sand Bridge 2.0Ghz intel i7 processor (2635QM).
I did say the WiiU will use a more efficient one though (I.e different as they will do different jobs), but I used it as an example of how you can pack a punch in a small space.
Yeah Macs run hot but so what? Never had one crap out on me yet, regardless of how hot it gets. I'm not gonna sit with a WiiU on my lap playing it.....


And no it's 85W MAXIMUM POWER DRAW in use.
Click to expand...
Nintendo's not going to risk putting out a poorly cooled machine like Apple. The last thing they want is a machine that overheats by design. If you were to play intense games daily on your Mac Mini, it will die eventually. That's why the Mac Mini isn't intended for gaming. You're making a totally pointless comparison.
 
wrowa said:
Reading wsippel's posts from the last pages make the Wii U sound not too promising.
Click to expand...

What is that based on? Everything I hear sounds like they are doing the same thing they did with Gamecube. It will more than likely "look bad" on paper, but be very efficient. I don't see Wii U being maximized till its second generation of games. That might coincide with the next consoles being released or not, but that's when we'll most like get a true idea of what Wii U can do ... unless they brought back Factor 5 to do a (near) launch title. :P

Thunder Monkey said:
I'm not judging guys.

I just remember getting into arguments on the power of the GCN based on dimensions back in 2001. Using PS2 and Xbox size dimensions there was no way the GCN could be anywhere near as powerful, Nintendo being realistic with ingame poly counts didn't help.
Click to expand...

Realistic? Didn't they kind of undersell the power?
 
Thunder Monkey said:
I'm not judging guys.

I just remember getting into arguments on the power of the GCN based on dimensions back in 2001. Using PS2 and Xbox size dimensions there was no way the GCN could be anywhere near as powerful, Nintendo being realistic with ingame poly counts didn't help.
Click to expand...
The difference is that Wii U is using a GPU we're familiar with (or at least it's based on a GPU we're familiar with). Estimations can be made, and at 40nm a 480SP part is the best we can hope for.
 
BurntPork said:
The surface area is about half that of the 360 (205.1 vs 392.5), and the fact that it can be laid on it's side (as far as we know, it has to be) reduces that even more. Besides, the size of the cooling system is what's more important, and there just isn't enough room for a decently sized heatsink or fan.

I just hope that i'm wrong in thinking that Nintendo is sacrificing power just to keep it small. That would be ridiculously short-sighted.
Click to expand...

It cannot be put on its side. At least the prototype box that was shown at E3 doesn't have any kind of side supports like it has under it, unlike the Wii.
 
BurntPork said:
Nintendo's not going to risk putting out a poorly cooled machine like Apple. The last thing they want is a machine that overheats by design. If you were to play intense games daily on your Mac Mini, it will die eventually. That's why the Mac Mini isn't intended for gaming. You're making a totally pointless comparison.
Click to expand...
Largely off-topic, but just FYI, the Mac Minis are anything but poorly designed when it comes to projected lifespan. I've had a couple running here for quite some time, one of them 24/7 for the past 6 years (yes, it's a G4).
 
Thunder Monkey said:
I'm not judging guys.

I just remember getting into arguments on the power of the GCN based on dimensions back in 2001. Using PS2 and Xbox size dimensions there was no way the GCN could be anywhere near as powerful, Nintendo being realistic with ingame poly counts didn't help.
Click to expand...
Dude you're so crazy. The Gamecube wasn't powerful enough to act as my lunch box, dude!
I agree that this topic is absolutely crazy and that's why I love it!
 
BurntPork said:
Nintendo's not going to risk putting out a poorly cooled machine like Apple. The last thing they want is a machine that overheats by design. If you were to play intense games daily on your Mac Mini, it will die eventually. That's why the Mac Mini isn't intended for gaming. You're making a totally pointless comparison.
Click to expand...

I dunno. The Wii was the first Nintendo console I've ever owned that crapped out on me due to overheating. The hot GPU was a known problem although not quite as widespread as the 360's woes. I think they'll attempt to squeeze as much power in as possible and enlarge the case a bit/add another fan if these reported dev kit heating problems persist.

Honestly, what it sounds like is they have some target specs and still not quite finished hardware and then a case which they designed using their best guess. Might explain why those "Wii U experiences" at E3 were graphically unimpressive. They were probably using some type of placeholder hardware well below the target specs.
 
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