Wii U Speculation Thread of Brains Beware: Wii U Re-Unveiling At E3 2012

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specialguy said:
I know the Wii U wont approach it obviously, but amazingly 16GB of DDR3 is actually pretty affordable if you're building a PC now. Around $90 at newegg.

Of course, DDR3 probably wouldn't be too usable in a console AFAIK, not enough bandwidth, you'd need GDDR5 (whether DDR3+EDRAM for framebuffer would be ok I dont know), but still rather amazing.
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I heard that high quality DDR3 has lower latency, and thus may actually be preferable to DDR5 in a console despite the lack of bandwidth...was this discussed here earlier?
 
Log4Girlz said:
Well Jonathan Blow says he heard it has a "lot more" ram. Goddammit a lot more has to be 4x as much ram minimum as the previous generation. 2 GB or bust! *sighs*
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I would believe 1.5GB would be a lot which is my expectation. The 64MB for a FB and TC should be better than an extra 512MB to make it 2GB.

manueldelalas said:
It would be funny if it gor more RAM than internal memory =P
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I giggled.
 
Log4Girlz said:
I heard that high quality DDR3 has lower latency, and thus may actually be preferable to DDR5 in a console despite the lack of bandwidth...was this discussed here earlier?
Click to expand...


yeah, i dont think so.

ddr3 bandwidth is really quite pathetic. i think in the 30's of gb's per second for top of the line. similar to what ps3 and 360 have this gen (~45 GB/s across two buses on PS3, ~22 GB/s+EDRAM on 360). obviously that wont do.

The rumor is Wii U may well have a large (1GB or so) pool of DDR3, though. Probably coupled with EDRAM or some other form of faster memory.
 
bgassassin said:
Heck I'd almost say the 360 in general was based on Gamecube from what I've seen. One of the similarities I noticed was in Xenos' daughter-die and Flipper's embedded Framebuffer where both handled the back buffer and z-buffer (front buffer in main memory).
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This is purely coincidental, at least going by Dave Baumann's article.

Using a rough calculation (still working on getting the formula completely down so this is based on one method), Wii U would need (to avoid tiling) a minimum of 16MB for 1920x1080p with no aliasing and 64MB for 1920x1080p with 4xFSAA (based on the idea that FSAA is used as opposed to some other AA). This isn't completely accurate, but it at least gives a rough idea of what would be needed.
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A lot more will be needed for deferred rendering as the G-buffer includes many more render targets than forward rendering.
 
glad to see this thread back on track to where I don't understand a damn thing

I'm hyped but dunno why
3AQmK.gif
 
Smiles and Cries said:
glad to see this thread back on track to where I don't understand a damn thing

I'm hyped but dunno why
3AQmK.gif
Click to expand...

I keep reading about devs really longing for a next-gen machine, I hope this translates to strong Wii-U support early on. Just so much potential with that fucking controller man! Like Carmack said, there's few genres that couldn't make some fine and dandy use of that controller. Seriously no game couldn't not be improved. As opposed to the Wii's waggle where some genres simply do not go well with it.
 
My hopes:

1.5 GB RAM
16 GB Flash

Any more and I would be ecstatic, but if they met these, I would be hugely pleased.
 
mclem said:
I need some time to parse this sentence.
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Sorry didn't have any sleep.

Edit

Bluemercury said:
link?
Click to expand...

"What do you want from a new generation of consoles?
For this type of game, I do wish the new generation of consoles had come out by now. Even if it only meant slightly faster graphics processor and a lot more RAM. Because having more memory would make a huge difference to being able to bring a game like this to a console. It makes it much easier. When you look at the Wii U, I'm told it has a lot more RAM - that would be wonderful, although I'm unsure about that platform for other reasons, especially in light of the iPad. If that console succeeds, it would be a nicer place to bring the game than the 360, if only because it has more RAM"

http://www.next-gen.biz/features/jonathan-blow-interview?page=5
 
Log4Girlz said:
I heard that high quality DDR3 has lower latency, and thus may actually be preferable to DDR5 in a console despite the lack of bandwidth...was this discussed here earlier?
Click to expand...

I brought up that concern only if Nintendo didn't have the memory clocked high enough. And looking over the test again that would also include the GPU clock. GDDR5 becomes gimped with lower clocks.

http://www.madshrimps.be/vbulletin/f22/ati-hd4870-gddr5-vs-gddr3-45988/

Using that as a foundation I think a lot of people here aren't expecting the GPU to be clocked even close to 700Mhz, let alone over like the 750Mhz in the link. Possible yes, but not expected.

And if based on that, then it really boils down to whether GDDR3 or DDR3 is the better direction.

Log4Girlz said:
I feel ya man.
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We're all just making educated guesses anyway, so they could just as easily have 2GB and lower amounts of e1T-SRAM. Part of my idea comes from the perspective of Nintendo's history since one of N64's problems was that it had 4kb for texture cache. They went to 1MB with GC.

AlStrong said:
This is purely coincidental, at least going by Dave Baumann's article.

A lot more will be needed for deferred rendering as the G-buffer includes many more render targets than forward rendering.
Click to expand...

LOL. Looks like you got my other PM.

Yeah I should have said "indirect" there as well as I did with the GPUs.

And when you say "a lot more", how would that look?
 
As far as internal memory goes, I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo takes the 3DS approach by having 2GB of internal flash memory, but includes an 8GB SD card for downloads and stuff.
 
Javier said:
Speak for yourself. I for one I'm glad SS is not getting the Twilight Princess treatment and releasing on the Wii as it should, instead of getting a rushed port just to upscale the graphics and change the controls.
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The controls would probably stay the same.
 
AlStrong said:
A lot more will be needed for deferred rendering as the G-buffer includes many more render targets than forward rendering.
Click to expand...
At one stage tiling will have to kick in. Unless WiiU hosts an obscene amount of local VRAM, there will always be situations when that will not be sufficient to hold everything comprising a frame.
 
Log4Girlz said:
Sorry didn't have any sleep.

Edit



"What do you want from a new generation of consoles?
For this type of game, I do wish the new generation of consoles had come out by now. Even if it only meant slightly faster graphics processor and a lot more RAM. Because having more memory would make a huge difference to being able to bring a game like this to a console. It makes it much easier. When you look at the Wii U, I'm told it has a lot more RAM - that would be wonderful, although I'm unsure about that platform for other reasons, especially in light of the iPad. If that console succeeds, it would be a nicer place to bring the game than the 360, if only because it has more RAM"

http://www.next-gen.biz/features/jonathan-blow-interview?page=5
Click to expand...

he... he... what?
 
specialguy said:
yeah, i dont think so.

ddr3 bandwidth is really quite pathetic. i think in the 30's of gb's per second for top of the line. similar to what ps3 and 360 have this gen (~45 GB/s across two buses on PS3, ~22 GB/s+EDRAM on 360). obviously that wont do.

The rumor is Wii U may well have a large (1GB or so) pool of DDR3, though. Probably coupled with EDRAM or some other form of faster memory.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say there was a rumor so much as there was speculation about the idea.

Plus it sounds like the BWs you're using are based on regular PC usage. As has been pointed out before IBM has DDR3 memory controllers that reach 100GB/s.

Smiles and Cries said:
glad to see this thread back on track to where I don't understand a damn thing

I'm hyped but dunno why
3AQmK.gif
Click to expand...

LOL. That's how I feel when you guys start talking about older games.

blu said:
At one stage tiling will have to kick in. Unless WiiU hosts an obscene amount of local VRAM, there will always be situations when that will not be sufficient to hold everything comprising a frame.
Click to expand...

I'm not surprised to see this, but I'm still trying to be in technical denial.

Javier said:
As far as internal memory goes, I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo takes the 3DS approach by having 2GB of internal flash memory, but includes an 8GB SD card for downloads and stuff.
Click to expand...

I think they would just go with a larger internal amount with it being a home console. My guess anyway.
 
bgassassin said:
I wouldn't say there was a rumor so much as there was speculation about the idea.

Plus it sounds like the BWs you're using are based on regular PC usage. As has been pointed out before IBM has DDR3 memory controllers that reach 100GB/s.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I wonder if you'll see a split set up. Having a gig of DDR3 for the CPU running with IBM's DDR3 memory controller, and .5 - 1 gig of GDDR3/5 for the GPU.

It's a possibility I guess. Though I'd still be surprised to see DDR3 show up in any of the next gen consoles.
 
bgassassin said:
I wouldn't say there was a rumor so much as there was speculation about the idea.
Click to expand...

Nah, pretty sure I heard it somewhere and from inside sources as basically confirmed. Take with whatever salt you feel like or dont.

Plus it sounds like the BWs you're using are based on regular PC usage. As has been pointed out before IBM has DDR3 memory controllers that reach 100GB/s.
Click to expand...

Hmm, guessing that's not cheap at all, being specialized. Besides, 100 GB/s still probably isn't enough for next gen. Again PS3 has ~44 GB/s between two busess and is still bandwidth constrained (why you see all those low res particle effects in games like Killzone). 2X that wont be enough for next gen.
 
bgassassin said:
And when you say "a lot more", how would that look?
Click to expand...

For each render target, for example, 720p 32bpp is 3.6MB, 1080p 64bpp is 16.2MB. Multiply as necessary for MSAA.

Current full G-buffers are 4 MRTs + 32bpp depth. With FP16 MRTs, you're looking at 72MB per pass without MSAA. Add in 4x and the memory requirement jumps to 288MB (@ 1080p).

Also keep in mind that DX10 introduced up to 8 MRTs though no one has bothered to use that yet due to the excessive memory and bandwidth implications as well as when supporting older/slower hardware (both PC and console).
 
Shin Johnpv said:
That's interesting. I wonder if you'll see a split set up. Having a gig of DDR3 for the CPU running with IBM's DDR3 memory controller, and .5 - 1 gig of GDDR3/5 for the GPU.

It's a possibility I guess. Though I'd still be surprised to see DDR3 show up in any of the next gen consoles.
Click to expand...

A split pool is a possibility as well. With current chip densities they'd be looking at having six chips [1GB DDR3, 1GB GDDR3/5 (I think 3 still peaks a 2Gbits] based on that idea. That's much more manageable than the absurd amounts people want for the other two consoles. That would allow the CPU to benefit from DDR3's lower latency compared to GDDR5 if I remember correctly. However the main reason why I can see DDR3 being a possibility is Nintendo being so picky about their clock speeds. With GC, the CPU was 3x the GPU and 1.5x the memory. And the memory was 2x the GPU. (Side note: GC had 16MB of PC-100 DRAM, so we could see a repeat with DDR3). I did eventually notice that based on my guessed clock speeds for Wii U, GDDR5 at 1822.5Mhz would fit in perfectly clock-wise. But that's based on my guess. If Nintendo went with a lower CPU speed, that could eliminate the idea of GDDR5 if there is truth to its reduced performance at lower clocks.

specialguy said:
Hmm, guessing that's not cheap at all, being specialized. Besides, 100 GB/s still probably isn't enough for next gen. Again PS3 has ~44 GB/s between two busess and is still bandwidth constrained (why you see all those low res particle effects in games like Killzone). 2X that wont be enough for next gen.
Click to expand...

Probably depends on your definition of specialized. Those are standard on the Power7 processors, yet that's for server usage. I'm expecting Wii U's CPU to be built from the ground up so that might help with cost since other unnecessary things would be cut out. However I don't know if the PS3 is a good comparison since you point out a BW amount that's less than half of the one being discussed.

AlStrong said:
For each render target, for example, 720p 32bpp is 3.6MB, 1080p 64bpp is 16.2MB. Multiply as necessary for MSAA.

Current full G-buffers are 4 MRTs + 32bpp depth. With FP16 MRTs, you're looking at 72MB per pass without MSAA. Add in 4x and the memory requirement jumps to 288MB (@ 1080p).

Also keep in mind that DX10 introduced up to 8 MRTs though no one has bothered to use that yet due to the excessive memory and bandwidth implications as well as when supporting older/slower hardware (both PC and console).
Click to expand...

Thanks. I knew I was missing something(s). This helps give me better ideas on the targets Nintendo might pursue since they (especially Reggie) was so "1080p1080p1080p1080p1080p"-oriented at E3 that I have a feeling that whatever is enough to accomplish that is their target for specs. Assuming that thought to be true, hopefully that's now a minimum goal.
 
1.5GB total RAM.
8GB flash storage, expandable via USB/external hard-drive.
Customised Radeon HD 4770 GPU. *EDIT* 4830? Who the fuck knows.
AMD custom tri-core CPU.

...?
 
Ubermatik said:
1.5GB total RAM.
8GB flash storage, expandable via USB/external hard-drive.
Customised Radeon HD 4770 GPU. *EDIT* 4830? Who the fuck knows.
AMD custom tri-core CPU.

...?
Click to expand...

I forget, what does the 4830 offer over the 4770? Better bandwidth? Higher memory frequency? More stream processors?
 
Thread has surprisingly taken a turn for the culinary.
 
Main innovations I want to see with graphic engines on the Wii-U

1. Nifty hair
2. Some effect other than "slimey" on surfaces
3. Actual High Definition graphics
4. Decent Anti-Aliasing

You know when a pretty nice looking game is announced and they release super clean bullshots and everyone knows it? Fuck I want Wii-U games to look super clean like that, I don't care if we have to take a hit on complexity.
 
Log4Girlz said:
Main innovations I want to see with graphic engines on the Wii-U

1. Nifty hair
2. Some effect other than "slimey" on surfaces
3. Actual High Definition graphics
4. Decent Anti-Aliasing

You know when a pretty nice looking game is announced and they release super clean bullshots and everyone knows it? Fuck I want Wii-U games to look super clean like that, I don't care if we have to take a hit on complexity.
Click to expand...
lol you're saying that like it WON'T happen.
 
Log4Girlz said:
And a can of dog penises. We finally figured out what Pikmins feed on.
Click to expand...

That Pikmin 2 commercial was awfully candid about this in retrospect:

"HOT DOG! HOT DOG!"

I'm going to hell for this. :lol
 
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