Wii U Speculation Thread of Brains Beware: Wii U Re-Unveiling At E3 2012
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BlackNMild2k1
Member
Thanx Azure & BG
I must have skipped over those responses as there was alot of reading to do between the 2 threads.
Now it's nice to know how crazy of a performance boost that would provide if it was even possible to accomplish.
I must have skipped over those responses as there was alot of reading to do between the 2 threads.
Now it's nice to know how crazy of a performance boost that would provide if it was even possible to accomplish.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
RAM access is characterized by two factors - latency and bandwidth. RAM access limitations along both of those axes are the bane of high-performance computing today. It does not matter how many jiggaflops of ALU you have at your fingertips, if you cannot feed along data at a steady rate, i.e. if you starve your pipeline, you'll never get the full power of your ALUs. Most experienced coders would tell you that getting high performance out of your (CPU) silicon today is an exercise in optimal data access (usually the sentence ends with '..an exercise in caching', but we can generalize that beyond CPUs). One of the reason GPUs are so good at their job is that the latter is (normally) constrained to a very favorable set of tasks in terms of data access. As a result, the GPUs job can parallelize well - they excel at scalability, and thus the one memory parameter they mainly care about is sheer BW (to meet their expansive parallelism). Not so with 'general computing' and CPUs. For the latter both BW and latency are very important (perhaps latency moreso). Now, consider that GPUs tend to do more and more general computing these days, and you'll see that GPUs' inherent 'immunity' to the latency problem is slowly dissolving. It's just that general computing cares about latency, and there's not way around that (when was the last time you saw a CPU without cache?). Now, whereas most 'fast' (in the eye of the general public) RAM today focuses on the BW problem, embedded DRAM actually helps with both latency and BW. So 1GB of edram would be nothing short of a game changer.
Does that answer your question?
Just wondering, assuming everything else is literally the same from the dev kit leaks to the final hardware, which should we be more excited for:
- A 768bit (96MB?) - 1Gbit (128MB) pool of eDRAM complimenting a 1GB GDDR3/5 general purpose shared RAM between CPU & GPU
- A 32MB pool of eDRAM (as per the subtle hints from brain_stew) complimenting a 1.5 - 2GB GDDR3/5 pool of general purpose shared RAM between CPU & GPU
TL;DR - Which one do/should we want more, higher eDRAM counts to "low" general memory counts or "decent" (re: lower than the max presented but enough for some tricks) eDRAM amounts to high(er) general memory between the CPU & GPU?
- A 768bit (96MB?) - 1Gbit (128MB) pool of eDRAM complimenting a 1GB GDDR3/5 general purpose shared RAM between CPU & GPU
- A 32MB pool of eDRAM (as per the subtle hints from brain_stew) complimenting a 1.5 - 2GB GDDR3/5 pool of general purpose shared RAM between CPU & GPU
TL;DR - Which one do/should we want more, higher eDRAM counts to "low" general memory counts or "decent" (re: lower than the max presented but enough for some tricks) eDRAM amounts to high(er) general memory between the CPU & GPU?
blu explained it very well, but to simplify it even further: Even the fastest RAM is slow. No matter how fast your processor is, if all it does is waiting for data, all that speed is useless. Like, it's cool if you are damn fast at folding origami cranes, but if the guy handing you the sheets of paper is slow, your speed is worthless.
Site is banned.
Here is a quote from the actual review at Eurogamer.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-11-24-project-cars-preview
Oh ok well here's a video of the Pre Alpha version of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1Y730IzOMPw
And a full race
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rag4sXgntuw&feature=related
If I'm not mistaken that would be footage from the PC version. I don't think there is any for the hypothetical version of it on the Wii U/360/PS3
I'd take the former
Jesus that was an amazing analogy.
So why has this news been given three pages of credence? Just look at it. The site has been a simple (and very occassional) copypaster of larger news media showing no connections whatsoever or no real insightful thoughts at all. Now they supposedly suddenly got some insider information from a Japanese insider no less. Furthermore their news goes against both what we know, especially the CPU, and plain common sense, suggesting a way too humongous embedded piece of EDRAM that despite being embedded is somehow still shared between CPU and GPU.
Come on. This isn't even a good try.
Come on. This isn't even a good try.
Jorok Goldblade
Member
I'd add Retro to that list as well. They're one of the first studios you'd want on tap to demo the hardware's visual prowess.
Lupin the Third
Member
Everyone just loves to dream along, that's all.
I'll take the second one. 32MB is still a fantastic amount to work with, and more main RAM allows for more complex/larger worlds and more detailed models/textures.
96MB sounds great but perhaps overkill for what the rest of the system is rumoured to have
BlackNMild2k1
Member
We're info starved and ready to discuss just about anything....?
We are ready to.... Believe?
So, we're thinking a 250GB hard drive and a 6990 equivalent right?
Also, those rumours about cross-platform mulitplayer are great - playing my mates on the PC!
evilromero
Member
After playing Pilotwings Resort I really would welcome a Monster Games developed PW for Wii U. But give it the full-blown treatment with five different islands and more vehicles (including the cannon ball).
BlackNMild2k1
Member
Nope. Holographic Storage and GCN Architecture GPU.
But you know that some people are going to constantly quote it, saying, "A reliable source has confirmed that Wii U only has 768MB of RAM, and that RAM is probably just so it can use the controller, so it's not more powerful than current gen! It might even end up behind current gen!" This fake leak is something we'll have to deal with until we get the real specs.
I was under the impression that about 32MB was necessary to run games
at 1080p with FAA. If the CPU and GPU had to share that, then wouldnt that pose a problem?
If so, I would go for the 96.
MadOdorMachine
No additional functions
The general consensus is that Reggie doesn't know what he's talking about, and was just spouting 1080p as if it referred to HD in general.
BlackNMild2k1
Member
right. which is why we should discuss it and debunk it.
Now the next time it gets brought up everyone can tell that person why it's not gonna happen instead of the few getting lost in the sea of responses.
Weren't there comments strongly hinting that any EDRAM on this system's final design will be its own separate pool of memory to be used between the CPU & GPU? I remember that much coming from brain_stew & wsippel a while back as they thought of how it would be implemented in this system's design.
We are discussing under the assuming the article actually made a mistake and meant 768mb being shared, therefore 96MB.
But yes, the 32MB would be for the CPU in the second case, but its not discussed if the GPU would have any eDRAM. So I assume the framebuffer comes from the main pool of memory like the Xbox.
herzogzwei1989
Banned
It sounds like Nintendo will get a huge leap beyond Wii by going with modern shader architecture (SM4.1 at least) combined with alot of CPU & GPU embedded memory for greater speeds than PS3 can manage.
brain_stew
Member
No. A console CPU with 32MB of L3 cache that the GPU can't access is one of the more absurd ideas proposed in this thread.
You think Reggie knows what the internal rendering resolutions of any Nintendo games is?
The demo was 720p without AA.
"lol Nintendo Defense Force in denial"
I thought Shader Models didn't get this high yet. Isn't 4.1/5 the current hot shit?
CoffeeJanitor
Member
I just went from Skyrim to SS, and while SS' art style is definitely growing on me more as I play, I cannot wait to see what their artists are going to make with better lighting tech.
Also, SS is the first time I've thought to myself "this looks like a Gamecube game." I guess the shock of Skryim to this put me in Nintendo troll mode or something.
Fourth Storm
Member
Don't get thrown off by the BS rumor, guys. We've gotten more reliable information on these boards. The person who made it up didn't even have any comprehension on what he was writing about except for knowing a few buzz words and numbers that have been tossed about for months in the speculation.
And yeah, if anything the 32 MB eDRAM will be on the GPU.
And yeah, if anything the 32 MB eDRAM will be on the GPU.
TP didn't do that too? Btw, you should get that reaction from most Wii games...
GameCube would run SS at 15-25FPS at best, and doesn't SS use some normal mapping?
Yeah, I know what you mean. At the same time, there were moments when I'd definitely think to myself, "this looks way better than TP"
CoffeeJanitor
Member
TP is a 6 year old game. It looked pretty great at the time, especially considering it was a cube game.
I doubt the Cube could even run SS, and I don't know about normal mapping. I'm just saying I got the reaction when I was playing it because I had been playing Skyrim. SS is a good looking game considering the hardware its on.
Oh, it's definitely better than TP. Especially the animations.
AceBandage
Banned
The problem is that the real tech people aren't exactly regulars on this site.
I mean, Brain Stew does what he can, and there are a few others, but with how much there is to teach, it's just not possible.
So, the rest of us basically just pick up what we can and try to explain it.
Lupin the Third
Member
I seem to remember that the activated Goddess Cube chests had a bit of a normal mapping lighting thing going on.
That's what I meant... it actually was a cube game.
But anyway, I agree with you. I don't really understand why people praise the graphics of Wii games beyond "good for what they are." I only own a Wii, after having a PS2 and GC, and the rare occasions that I play one of HD Twins it always strikes me as odd that people ever bother getting worked up over Wii graphics. It's like telling a little kid he's good at something when he's not, but he's a kid so you don't want to be mean.
EDIT: This has nothing to do with art style/direction.
You would rather believe a group that made their analysis based on a video of a video, the same group that if i remember correctly started the rumor that Skyrim on PS3 had a resolution downgrade after the 1.2 patch based on nothing more than an incorrect observation by a poster on their site.
Cow Mengde
Banned
That's environment map bump mapping. Both the Wii and GC supports this effect. SMG 1/2 abuses that like hell. If you want, you probably can get normal mapping to work on the GC.
For me, if a game looks nice, it looks nice, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. Tech isn't the most important thing to me if it isn't used well. I'd take SS or Galaxy over Black Ops anyday, for example, because, in spite of it's tech advantage, it's a fucking ugly game.
This is why I'd be excited for Nintendo games on Wii U even if it's only powerful enough to render Wii games in HD with better textures and IQ. The ONLY reason I care about power is because I think it'll have extremely poor sales without ports.
i feel the exactly the same
Eteric Rice
Member
While I agree with this, the problem I have is that if Nintendo doesn't get up to par, they'll once again get no third party support.
I'd rather not have to buy another console for multi-plat games.
AdventureRacing
Member
It has everything to do with art style/direction. There are some games on the wii which genuinly look great and not just because i'm giving them a free pass because of the HW limitations. Games like wario land shake it to me look as good as pretty much anything released this gen.
Nobody's mentioning Kirby's Epic Yarn? The game that stole the show for "Best Graphics at E3" from GameTrailers?
If its a separate pool of memory, shared between COU and GPU, then it isn't edram, just ram. Edram needs to be on the same die as either the CPU or GPU. For Gaming I think we'd prefer it on the GPU as a frame buffer etc. on the CPU you'd more normally refer to it as cache.
I don't think we'll hear anything about the Wii U until GDC.
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