Barack Lesnar
Banned
Makes you wonder doesn't it...
Wii U Speculation Thread The Third: Casting Dreams in The Castle of Miyamoto
- Thread starter AceBandage
- Start date
Makes you wonder doesn't it...
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Which is okay if Nintendo only cares about first party titles. But it's clear that they are trying to go after 3rd party titles and at that point. Power does matter.
You can either have a system that's targeting current generation ports or aim for a system that has enough power to compete when PS4/720 when they comes out.
So far, it's looks like Nintendo have gone for the first option.
Nintendo has done that much, too. We don't know the details (and I imagine that's because it's all still in flux), but I'm sure we'll get at least basic specs once Nintendo does their official reveal.
My prediction of E3:
We will see straight ports of PS3/360 games on the Wii U. GAF will say Wii U hardware is same as PS3/360.
My expectations of Wii U:
Better than 360/PS3 but worse than PS4/720. And I believe most people here expect that. How much worse than PS4/720, I have no idea and no expectations.
Visually, I expect Wii U will be capable of better lighting, shadows, textures, etc compared to PS3/360. The difference in multigames will sometimes be small and sometimes bigger. Even here, GAF will say the hardware is pretty much the same. I mean there are multigames that are on PC that some claim has very little difference to PS3/360.
I don´t expect third party to do much improvement(if any) compared to the other consoles, at least start of Wii U´s lifecycle. Hopefully, I am wrong.
And let us not forget that launch games are never the best looking ones the console can output. Unless Nintendo or a third party shows a game (exclusive for Wii U), that wants to impress visually, I am not sure we will get all our answers on what Wii U is capable of at E3.
We will see straight ports of PS3/360 games on the Wii U. GAF will say Wii U hardware is same as PS3/360.
My expectations of Wii U:
Better than 360/PS3 but worse than PS4/720. And I believe most people here expect that. How much worse than PS4/720, I have no idea and no expectations.
Visually, I expect Wii U will be capable of better lighting, shadows, textures, etc compared to PS3/360. The difference in multigames will sometimes be small and sometimes bigger. Even here, GAF will say the hardware is pretty much the same. I mean there are multigames that are on PC that some claim has very little difference to PS3/360.
I don´t expect third party to do much improvement(if any) compared to the other consoles, at least start of Wii U´s lifecycle. Hopefully, I am wrong.
And let us not forget that launch games are never the best looking ones the console can output. Unless Nintendo or a third party shows a game (exclusive for Wii U), that wants to impress visually, I am not sure we will get all our answers on what Wii U is capable of at E3.
I see the new thread has caused you to reclaim your new avatar! Feeling bold.
The issue I have with this speculation is we still have no idea if Wii U will hit the sweet spot of being easily portable from PS4/720. We have no clue. Looking back at the Wii is useless- not the same comparison at all. This developer could be right on and Wii U could still get 3rd party ports in 2014. We just do not know.
Did they do that with the Wii? I'm sure they will stick with "AMD HD graphics". At least Apple tells you what line they're cpu and gpus are based on.
Regardless, Apple doesn't have a history of putting out significantly weaker hardware, so they get less flack for not listing things like cpu speeds or exact RAM amounts, since they're still usually inline with the competition.
You should read his posts, the only thing he did wrong was state his opinion of the machine as facts, other than that, we did believe him, there was quite a melt down that lasted 50 pages until lherre (who works on the dev kits) and then Ideaman came and put what arkam said into perspective.
Don't we have official Wii U specs detailing HD graphics, with a Modern Radeon based GPU and a multicore PPC CPU based on powerful IBM architecture, capable of wireless rendering to the tablet at the same time? Is as specific. Specially since Apple talked about a product releasing in days within the announcement, while the Wii U was more than a year away.
At the time of the OG iPad release, with 256MB of RAM, android handsets were starting to rock 1GB of RAM. Is not until the A5 that I believe we can say that Apple started to compete (and get the upper hand) in specs with their heavy emphasis on the GPU.
Exterminieren
Banned
Just to play Devil's Advocate here (and I know I'd get eaten alive if I tried to say this in the other thread), but... might that Vigil Games guy simply be trying to justify a lazy port?
I mean, we have people from the same developers confidently predicting improved textures based on year-old dev kits. Unless Nintendo arbitrarily decided to lower the specs (and that would have a shot at being the most colossally stupid move Nintendo could have made), it strikes me that he may simply be attempting to cover his own ass.
Don't get me wrong, I expect Wii U to be significantly closer to 360/PS3 than the other next-gen consoles, but I don't credit what little we've seen and heard as a blanket "360 with a tablet" that certain posters, particularly in the other thread, have been falling over themselves to paint it as.
I mean, we have people from the same developers confidently predicting improved textures based on year-old dev kits. Unless Nintendo arbitrarily decided to lower the specs (and that would have a shot at being the most colossally stupid move Nintendo could have made), it strikes me that he may simply be attempting to cover his own ass.
Don't get me wrong, I expect Wii U to be significantly closer to 360/PS3 than the other next-gen consoles, but I don't credit what little we've seen and heard as a blanket "360 with a tablet" that certain posters, particularly in the other thread, have been falling over themselves to paint it as.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I don't think I can handle reading this thread any more, no offense to anyone lol (actually some people should probably be offended). Maybe I'll check back at e3.
It seems like every time we learn something that may or may not be a real tidbit, everyone goes "oh well and that's that" and accepts it as the undeniable truth, and then it starts this endless cycle not worth mentioning.
Too much folks, too much.
It seems like every time we learn something that may or may not be a real tidbit, everyone goes "oh well and that's that" and accepts it as the undeniable truth, and then it starts this endless cycle not worth mentioning.
Too much folks, too much.
Okay, this is the thing the bothers me the most. When the hell does Nintendo have a "history" of releasing "significantly weaker hardware"? They did it one time with the Wii and that's it. The Cube was a little weaker than the Xbox, the N64 was more powerful than the PS1, the SNES is considered more capable than the Genesis (always a huge discussion around that one). They made the Wii (which was way weaker than the PS3/360), but that doesn't give them a "history" of doing something like that. One time does not mean a trend.
In my opinion, this is exactly what it is.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
PS360 are not going away any time soon. If the next gen consoles coming from MS and Sony do launch in 2013, then they'll still be a lot of development happening in PS360.
I can see a point where there are multiplatform games on PS4/720 that will get the PS360 treatment with the inevitable scale back. The question is. How much will they have to scale back for WiiU.
I'm hoping if the ram rumours are true then at least it should be possible for the textures to be improved on WiiU relative to PS360. The memory should also help in lighting and shadows. The extra eDram should also help in better AA. Or Devs will be lazy and go for a straight vanilla port.
Or, quite possibly.. not enough?
I was smart to avoid this place last night. It appears as though my fortune teller was correct in her advice to do so.
Based on the highly speculative hardware "fact sheet" just posted, I decided to compile what we really know so far. Those are the only known facts at this point:
That's it. Everything beyond that - number of cores or threads, clock speed, cache, RAM, eDRAM, architecture etc. - comes from rumors and speculation.
One more thing, though: While there were no IBM or ATI press releases touting the power of the Wii back then, here are some choice quotes from the Wii U press releases:
- CPU: All-new IBM designed, Power-based multicore processor, uses eDRAM in some capacity. Built on IBM's 45nm SOI process.
- GPU: Custom AMD GPU not based on any existing Radeon chip. In development for more than two years. Features an UVD unit.
- Audio: Some kind of DSP for hardware accelerated audio mixing and processing.
- Wireless: 802.11b/g/n, Bluetooth 4.0+EDR
That's it. Everything beyond that - number of cores or threads, clock speed, cache, RAM, eDRAM, architecture etc. - comes from rumors and speculation.
One more thing, though: While there were no IBM or ATI press releases touting the power of the Wii back then, here are some choice quotes from the Wii U press releases:
IBM said:
AMD said:
Both of them (and all of our sleuths and industry insiders) are contributing to a single truth that most people here are coming to understand though. Arkham confirmed the system would see a RAM pool of 1GB+ (albeit of "slow" RAM as per his comments) and a GPU with ability but "no teeth" in his company's dev kit. Ideaman Has been re-iterating (in his own IdeaMan way) stuff that bg, myself and others have with regards to where the system stands both on its own merits and as a successor to this generations' consoles. He's also given us one new aspect to consider that a lot weren't before in the padlet's usage and scene complexity taking resources from the system and offering images on the TV screen that were "prettier" than similar results on the 360/PS3 but not by much thanks to the intense pad usage. lherre, the original fountain of info gave us the range with which to look at the system's RAM pool, notes on dev kit revisions, and the first real "curb your enthusiasm" which (for me anyway) was well within my original expectations for the system. wsippel gave us a foundation months back when he reported on the CPU & GPU being used to baseline the system back when it was freezing/locking up due to heat issues (and this was before Nintendo had its custom silicon in the kits - 3.6GHz PPC Tri Core, AMD Radeon HD 4830, RAM target between 1 & 2GB).
Everything about this points to a system that stands above current gen, period. The god in the details everyone wants to see now is just how much above it all will it be in practicality, especially given the uPad usages.
It's only when people come in throwing out "facts" (a reference to both how cock sure they are of their own prediction or hunch and the dubious nature of their posts/posting habits) like Wii U will only be 1.2x360 when everything says otherwise and dev impressions from the least enthused to the most talkative have stated that Wii U performs beyond this gen (at the core of their comments) that people get riled up.
And goddamn is this post late.
Edit: I don't know about getting shouted out of the thread but I hope Arkham hasn't dropped out of the thread due to any perceived negativity towards what he had to say.
Same here pretty much. This thread should be locked until new news emerges, then unlocked again for discussion :lol
Gbpackers31
Member
I just don't understand the Wii U anymore. Who are they targeting with this system? I thought the whole point of the Wii U was to target the "gamer," the people who didn't buy a Wii: the 360/PS3 demographic.
But then, that doesn't make sense at all. If that's true that it's barely more powerful like Vigil says, I don't see that happening. Why would the PS3/360 crowd rush out to buy a Wii U when, almost certainly, next year, the NextBox will release, which will dwarf the Wii U. At first, I didn't see it as being too terrible, considering I fully thought Microsoft wouldn't design a completely powerful system, but that opinion of mine has changed in the last couple of weeks. And with the power disparity, will Wii U receive the same primary multiplats from the primary developers? Even if the Wii U can run the games, I have a bad feeling devs will skip out...
Or did Nintendo think Microsoft wouldn't ask as they did, and the Wii U would have a couple of years alone before the next wave of consoles hit? But thinking about that, that doesn't make sense either! Why would people go out and spend $300+ on a Wii U right away to play ports of multiplats they can play on their 360/PS3 with already established online communities, with the only noticeably difference being the use of the tablet screen.
If Nintendo wants to get that crowd, I think they really have to change their image, and the Wii U - its name and rumored specs - are not doing any favors. I also think they need something completely different, game-wise. As much as most everyone here in this thread, including myself, wants to see the next Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc right away, I think they need something completely different, and they need to show it this E3. That's why I'm glad to hear that Retro is working on something for that 360/PS3 demographic, and not DKCR, Metroid, or Zelda.
But then, that doesn't make sense at all. If that's true that it's barely more powerful like Vigil says, I don't see that happening. Why would the PS3/360 crowd rush out to buy a Wii U when, almost certainly, next year, the NextBox will release, which will dwarf the Wii U. At first, I didn't see it as being too terrible, considering I fully thought Microsoft wouldn't design a completely powerful system, but that opinion of mine has changed in the last couple of weeks. And with the power disparity, will Wii U receive the same primary multiplats from the primary developers? Even if the Wii U can run the games, I have a bad feeling devs will skip out...
Or did Nintendo think Microsoft wouldn't ask as they did, and the Wii U would have a couple of years alone before the next wave of consoles hit? But thinking about that, that doesn't make sense either! Why would people go out and spend $300+ on a Wii U right away to play ports of multiplats they can play on their 360/PS3 with already established online communities, with the only noticeably difference being the use of the tablet screen.
If Nintendo wants to get that crowd, I think they really have to change their image, and the Wii U - its name and rumored specs - are not doing any favors. I also think they need something completely different, game-wise. As much as most everyone here in this thread, including myself, wants to see the next Mario, Zelda, Metroid, etc right away, I think they need something completely different, and they need to show it this E3. That's why I'm glad to hear that Retro is working on something for that 360/PS3 demographic, and not DKCR, Metroid, or Zelda.
Stuff like "modern" is pretty vague, especially when people are hoping the gpu is based on a 4850 which I had in my PC years ago. Maybe it was more "modern" when they first started designing the system before they announced it a year ago.
A few android devices may have had more RAM than the iPad, but it was a small number and the iPad still performed fine compared to the competition.
Wii, DS, 3DS. It's clear their strategy isn't to try and compete as far as hardware is concerned.
I don't think anyone here thinks that the Wii U is going to be on par with the next Xbox or Playstation. I think the BEST people are hoping for is something a little more powerful than what is currently available, and even if that is the case I don't think something like 1GB more of RAM than what 360 has is going to to create that big a difference to what games on the current gen platforms look like, especially when resources will be dedicated to streaming things to the controller.
I think it's likely that Wii U games will look better than 360 games like Xbox games look better than Gamecube games, or Wii games look better than Gamecube games.
pieatorium
Member
I understand all this my post was in regards to the way both are/were treated by posters in this thread as a follow up to my comment about Vigil being one of the go to dev qoutes here prior to this latest interview.
I just thought everyone here should know that Nintendo Gamer magazine is shit and fails again.
The magazine doesnt have any Wii U screens. The magazine doesnt have any new info. Its all old from E3 last year. They even tried to pass off some of their stuff as new, but all they did was taken quotes from one of the dudes who spoke at that Ubisoft roundtable for Nintendo last year.
The magazine doesnt have any Wii U screens. The magazine doesnt have any new info. Its all old from E3 last year. They even tried to pass off some of their stuff as new, but all they did was taken quotes from one of the dudes who spoke at that Ubisoft roundtable for Nintendo last year.
That's also unconfirmed. I only mentioned stuff that's actually confirmed by Nintendo, their suppliers or their business and technology partners.
I like the combination of our spec sheets more, if we haven't learned anything since E3, then what is the point of this thread.
We have heard from reliable sources that the RAM is over 1GB.
We have a quote from a AMD engineer putting Wii U's GPU over 1Tflops.
The fact sheet I posted, is by no means final, but we do know more about Wii U than what you just posted.
You can't consider the 3DS and DS. They have their own priorities and Nintendo has always been that way with handhelds. Just because Sony jumped in and tried to change that, doesn't mean it wasn't part of the way Nintendo does things in that sector.
With consoles that's a whole different business. They've always went for a comparable spec to the competition with the exception of the Wii. I'm sure they're going to try to do the same thing with the Wii U. Not doing so last generation cost them the last leg of the race, and I don't think they'll make that same mistake again.
You know, I don't think Vigil were saying the Wii U is underpowered, or on par with the PS3/360. They were talking about the game itself.
Instead of focusing on upping the graphics, they've focused on Upad support instead.
People have chinese whispered this thing to death, I reckon:
"Wii U version of DS2 is on par with 360/PS3"; "Wii Uversion of DS2 is on par with 360/PS3"; "Wii U is underpowered, only as powerful as 360 - Vigil said so".
Instead of focusing on upping the graphics, they've focused on Upad support instead.
People have chinese whispered this thing to death, I reckon:
"Wii U version of DS2 is on par with 360/PS3"; "Wii U
I think they are putting out a comparable spec to what is available right now. What have you seen that makes you think any different?
So, what you want Nintendo to say? They can't say the GPU model, because is none. Sony didn't said "we have a gimped 7800", their GPU was the RSX.
The rumors pointing at R700 family based GPU are Power and Feature set estimations based on what's on the dev kit at the time of E3 reveal. How much is that representative of the final hardware? 360 dev kit at their E3 unveil were PPCs Macs with Radeons x1800.
Yeah, I made a slight addendum to address that when I noticed what you were talking about. My post was meant more as a catch all for the direction we have now regarding all of the Wii U antics.
I still think that was a low point for a few folks but eventually both IdeaMan and Arkham were verified. Even then, it's hard for me to think badly of people who did chew Arkham out though because at that time in the thread, we were pretty used to a lot of hit and run trollery courtesy of folks like Luckyman.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
it's one of those things where the writer of the article forgot to include the [version of DS2] like they do in interviews to provide context.
Cerebral Assassin
Member
Close, they will say it looks worse (see last E3).
I agree, & I think that at E3 we will see something from Retro, I assume that would be the Nintendo team most likely to try and impress visually.
Do we even have confirmed specs of the 3DS? Nintendo doesn't release those anymore... Not since Gamecube.
Glorified G
Member
Vigil:
Christ, how clearer can it be? The constant spin is so stupid.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
So long as they're not planning on launching the week after E3 that gives plenty of time. As of E3 2006 we didn't even know Miis were going to be a regular system feature.
Actually, I think Sony directly compared RSX to the 7800, but ok...
I'm really fine with the WiiU being basically on par with the current gen. Games like Mario Galaxy honestly look great, but the biggest drawback is that the system outputs at 480p. I've been multiplatform since the days of the SNES/Genesis, so I'm sort of set in the mindset of my Nintendo being for Nintendo games and my other system being for the "mature" titles. As long as they don't set the price ridiculously high, I'll glady buy the system at launch and enjoy it.
And hey, the Dreamcast was one of my favorite systems of all time. If I get a Jet Set Radio on this thing then lets Dreamcast this bitch!
And hey, the Dreamcast was one of my favorite systems of all time. If I get a Jet Set Radio on this thing then lets Dreamcast this bitch!
I haven't seen anything. It's just common sense. These are smart guys we're talking about and if we're having this discussion, I know they're having this discussion as well. We used to talk about these sorts of things when I worked at Nintendo a few years ago. The issue always comes down to cost vs. performance and they'll work that out, which is probably why we haven't heard anything concrete. They're probably going to be having this discussion for as long as possible.
There's simply no reason for them to release something close to the current generation. If for no other reason that the system has to render two screens at the same time. That's no small feat and requires a fair bit of power to do. With the technology we have now, they would have to go out of their way to make something "on par" with current gen tech. Considering they're chatting with devs about what the hardware is ultimately going to look like, I can't imagine any of them telling Nintendo that going with current gen hardware is "fine". Goes against everything they've been talking about since we first started hearing about the system.
We have some info from decaps and SDK leaks.
(I thought you were going?)
(pssht! I couldn't leave this thread if I wanted to.)
Like I've said in the past.. patience. All will be revealed in time. Between here and E3, trap threads like the other one will pop-up, and in the long run their main lasting effect will be that we're missing posters from here.
Although a question out of curiosity: Is there an unbannable Nintendo fan mirror-equivalent of Drinky, serving as counter balance?
They did? Anyway, Sony said a lot of things, including that the Ps3 was a 2 Teraflop device. RSX had the most of the shelf GPU in a console until the vita and the 3DS. Nintendo did announced that the 3DS had a Pica200 GPU (so much for Apple specs being clearer than Nintendo's). But, did MS said that the 360 had a x1800? Nintendo and AMD are saying specifically that it is a custom built GPU.
That's about what I expect from the Wii U after it is released, I just think we have nailed down some definites that should be listed, especially when someone wonders what the specs are, is it possible that we are wrong about those specs? only if they are changed.
But I understand your reluctance to accept them, still if I can help a gaffer feel better about his future purchase without lying to him, I'll do it.
-Pyromaniac-
Member
so far, aka they've been able to port the game just fine.
Not wanting to release an expensive systems or take a big loss on hardware isn't enough reason for them to not want to release something close to the current generation?
I just really don't understand the mentality some people have in regards to Nintendo. It's like none of you think Nintendo would take the opportunity to brag about how much more powerful Wii U was compared to what is out now if they were able to.
As i said, what arkam stated (well, i've not read all of these posts) could be explained by tons of parameters and STILL could fit the more and more precise image of the Wii U power range that informed people can have after reading infos from developers, manufacturers, hardware "leaks", educated speculations, etc. These two waves of data aren't conflicting at all, when, again, you take into consideration all the context (dev kit used by its studio, what they intend to do with the upad, the nature of their project, a port or not, when in the development process of their title his impressions were made, etc.).
When i read some of you, it's like the world is either black or white. Wii U is underpowered OR Wii U is truly next-gen. A Wii U port on par with Xbox360 mean Wii U is underpowered, etc. Take a long breath and consider all the context, then you'll see the information under a very different light.
TADA ! Really, it's not a question of a camp to choose, the arkam/vigil director underpowered wii u, and the other one 5x xbox360. It's ridiculous.
And even the Vigil comment can FIT with what was said in this thread, i'll quote myself:
______________________________
Yes, it's becoming more and more aggressive and harsh around here, with personal attacks, etc.
axisofweevils
Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
Wow. The Nintendo haters are out in force today.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
You've got it backwards. Wii U games will be the standard, and it will be stretched as far as it can go. PS4/720 games will just be Wii U games without the Tablet Controller, and prettier lighting. Maybe 1080p and 60fps, but I unless they come out much later than I expect, they won't be that much more capable.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Wow. The Nintendo defense force are out in hate today.
Because their competition is the Ps4 and the NextBox? Give concretes numbers and rivals will have solid metrics to base how much their systems will beat yours in their presentation at E3 2013. (Note: None doubts that the Ps4 and NextBox will be considerably more powerful, 20% IGN rumor be damned).
Did Nintendo ever said by for how much the 3DS beats the PSP? Did they even went out of their way to dispel the 64MB of RAM rumor that was accepted until, after release, someone scanned the SoC with an electric microscope? No, because it was clear that it's competition, Vita not the PSP, was going to overshadow the system.
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that the second screen will be used as an inventory or status or powerup (think: DS Mario games) screen while more power is delegated to the TV screen.
Then, when the controller screen is used, power may be shifted away from the TV for dramatic effect. For example, if you hold the controller up as though you're scanning an area in Metroid (heat visor? xray visor?), the TV may go blurry or less-defined (artistically speaking) while you're focused on you controller interface.
I could see some developers using the power distribution in this manner..
Then, when the controller screen is used, power may be shifted away from the TV for dramatic effect. For example, if you hold the controller up as though you're scanning an area in Metroid (heat visor? xray visor?), the TV may go blurry or less-defined (artistically speaking) while you're focused on you controller interface.
I could see some developers using the power distribution in this manner..
-Pyromaniac-
Member
sooo uhhhh
and since then we know that there was a notable boost in one of the final dev kits that was apparently a bit significant
so yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
and since then we know that there was a notable boost in one of the final dev kits that was apparently a bit significant
so yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I know, I know... :| Stupid days... and their... length.
And maybe... who knows.
Yet he could mean 'on par' as in portability cross-coding etc.? He could be talking about architecture, not power, hence the ease to develop with.
Simply put, the Wii U cannot be on par with the 360 for 3 reasons - we've heard more sources on the contrary (dev comments etc.), Nintendo won't be releasing what is essentially now a 6 year old console in 2012, and we have already seen what the system is capable of, at an early stage, and it surpasses that of current capabilities, by a significant amount!
1 step forward 2 steps back much? It renders the idea of the console being 360 level near impossible.
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