Wii U Speculation Thread The Third: Casting Dreams in The Castle of Miyamoto

burst said:
Of course the WiiU will be able to achieve better looking games than the current generation, it just whether a developer can be bothered to do it.
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The point is that the upper level of what's achievable on WiiU is going to be a lot lower the we'd hope if the current information is true.
 
lwilliams3 said:
It heavily depends on what the tablet displays are rendering. It is not as simple as comparing it to a resolution increase. If its a full 3D image that is not also rendered on the TV (bird's eye view, for example), that scene will have to also be rendered separately. That means that if a company was porting a 360/PS3 game to the Wii U and have not even made any change its graphics, it could still possibly require up to 2x the 360/PS3 power to intensively use one tablet. Four tablets rendering different scenes could require up to 500% more GPU rendering power compared to just rendering the image to only the TV, but of course that would be the worse-case scenario.
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Hmm... Did anyone look at the Zelda demo and see if there was any drop in quality when the tablet switched from map to display the same thing on the screen as well as on the TV?

EDIT: If the techdemo was 720p and it could display also on a second screen, does that mean it could potentially show it in 1080p on the main screen if the setup was made so the tablet wasn´t used for anything than showing inventory/map? Might explain why Reggie said it was 1080P?
 
cyberheater said:
The point is that the upper level of what's achievable on WiiU is going to be a lot lower the we'd hope if the current information is true.
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Hey Cyberheater.

I got a little proposal. When there is ONE WiiU game that looks significantly better than anything on Xbox360 and PS3 at E3, you will get a Reggie avatar and the every console in your status has to be replaced with "WiiU".

Deal? :D
 
ColdBlooder said:
Hey Cyberheater.

I got a little proposal. When there is ONE WiiU game that looks significantly better than anything on Xbox360 and PS3 at E3, you will get a Reggie avatar and the every console in your status has to be replaced with "WiiU".

Deal? :D
Click to expand...

Ha ha. I'm game :)
 
Thats why we need a mod as a judge.

significantly better = better lightning, better textures and better effects or game rendered in 1080p while looking even slightly better (no xbox 360 and ps3 game with intense 3d does 1080p!)
 
after playing Twisted Metal ,,,I was just wondering, wouldn't be great if Nintendo did something like a spin off of Super Smash Bros series and called it Super Smash Bros. KartsMania where u play in a big stage and the goal is not just shooting other players with shells (thats basically what mario kart battle mode is) but throwing them of the edge of that stage,, u can have shots where u can "weaken" the other players so u can push them of the edge !! ,,now put some online on that , DLC whatever and u would have one crazy game !
 
magash said:
Shouldn't you guys define what "significantly stronger" means before initiating the bet?
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True. I'm talking about a clear technical graphical leap. This isn't about art or style and not a tech demo but a real game.
 
Ok im down with this. The Japanese garden FLOOR demo (Not the vid shown in the E3 conference) does make me feel very positive about this :)

Its propably gonna need Nintendo themselves or a second party (Retro, im looking at you) to show something jaw dropping.

I have NO hope for any third party multiplat title looking much better than the xbox/ps counterpart
 
ColdBlooder said:
Ok im down with this. The Japanese garden FLOOR demo (Not the vid shown in the E3 conference) does make me feel very positive about this :)

Its propably gonna need Nintendo themselves or a second party (Retro, im looking at you) to show something jaw dropping.

I have NO hope for any third party multiplat title looking much better than the xbox/ps counterpart
Click to expand...

This is a bit one sided. If I win, you should change your avatar to my 'WiiU is on par with PS360' image.
 
Damn wanted a quote!

@Cyberheater:

Sure, not a prob :) I wouldnt even have a problem with it if that turns out to be true, lol :) so thats not even harsh punishment for me :)
 
Its just some harmless fun.

I dont care about avatars. Heck if WiiU is really just as powerful as a Xbox 360 Nintendo will show how much more graphical "AWE" they can squeeze out of that power, putting every game this gen to shame. Just look at mario galaxy...
 
I'm tryin' to stay positive here.

Just think of all the IPs that wouldn't make it on a Microsoft or Sony console, but would on a Nintendo console. The possibilities are ENDLESS.
 
Heh i stealth edited, sry ;)

I am pretty confident, but i wont cry in a corner or flame Nintendo if it isnt as powerful as we hope. The 3DS does alot (not everything, but alot!) right already. I like to see this trend continue with the WiiU!
 
herzogzwei1989 said:
I'm tryin' to stay positive here.

Just think of all the IPs that wouldn't make it on a Microsoft or Sony console, but would on a Nintendo console. The possibilities are ENDLESS.
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Metroid with the padlet could be godly.
 
Scanning with the uPad would really be amazing!

Zelda could do the same thing. Hidden Doors/Tresure chests/switches that are just visible on the uPad when you search the screen!

OR an invisible Boss that can only be seen with the uPad. Lens of truth anybody? :D
 
ColdBlooder said:
Scanning with the uPad would really be amazing!

Zelda could do the same thing. Hidden Doors/Tresure chests/switches that are just visible on the uPad when you search the screen!

OR an invisible Boss that can only be seen with the uPad. Lens of truth anybody? :D
Click to expand...

I just hope they use it as the movement tracker in the forthcoming aliens game.
 
lwilliams3 said:
It heavily depends on what the tablet displays are rendering. It is not as simple as comparing it to a resolution increase. If its a full 3D image that is not also rendered on the TV (bird's eye view, for example), that scene will have to also be rendered separately. That means that if a company was porting a 360/PS3 game to the Wii U and have not even made any change its graphics, it could still possibly require up to 2x the 360/PS3 power to intensively use one tablet.
Click to expand...

Ok, hold that thought. I want to get some reference here.

Lets take a typical Xbox game like
Batman: Arkham Asylum = 1280x720 (2xAA)

How many more times more power do you estimate it would take to display this game at
1920 x 1080 ?

And to display this game at
2560 x 1600 ?
 
I wrote this a few pages back but due to the power discussion it went unseen.

How about the possibility to stream your 3DS games onto the TV with the uPad displaying the 3DS botton screen.

Like a new generation of the super gameboy/gameboy player

The uPad has all the buttons and Slidepads to even support the circle pad pro!

If they use 720p and Borders on the tv (Gameboy player and super gameboy did it with borders aswell), they dont need to stretch the games to fullscreen!
 
MDX said:
Ok, hold that thought. I want to get some reference here.

Lets take a typical Xbox game like
Batman: Arkham Asylum = 1280x720 (2xAA)

How many more times more power do you estimate it would take to display this game at
1920 x 1080 ?

And to display this game at
2560 x 1600 ?
Click to expand...

1080p is roughly twice the pixels of 720p, so it requires twice the pixel fill rate.

1600p is roughly twice that, so 4 times the fill rate of 720p.

There is other things to consider, but roughly 1080p requires twice the power.

How I look at this entire power debate is funny though, we have had sub HD games from the HD twins, so how I see it, if Wii U does well, PS4 and Xbox3 will display multiplatform games in 1080p with roughly the same effects of the Wii U @ 720p or sub HD.

That situation is light years beyond this generation with Wii.
 
z0m3le said:
1080p is roughly twice the pixels of 720p, so it requires twice the pixel fill rate.

1600p is roughly twice that, so 4 times the fill rate of 720p.
Click to expand...

(I wonder if this is where IGN got the 4x the power of the 360)

There is other things to consider, but roughly 1080p requires twice the power.
Click to expand...

Ok, so if Nintendo is shooting for a gpu that can handle 1600p, they have plenty of room to handle a couple upads by only having to output max 1080p for a current gen game. I find it very telling that the original rumors of the WiiU had 4 pads working with the system, not one.

At any rate, I expect the WiiU to handle top tier current gen games @ 1080p with one, possibly 2 controllers, without problem. This should be case for the majority of the games for the next two to three years. Once the new consoles of MS and Sony come in, developers might be forced to drop the WiiU games down to 720p unless... the WiiU has become the defacto console to develop for.


.
 
Please stop with this useless power debate.

If Nintendo was releasing specs, this debate would reach levels that rip interdimendional holes into our dimention, summoning cuthulu on a skateboard, whos rapping the frash prince theme while annihilating all of us with killer bananas from outer space...

So seriously... stop
 
Just read something official (middleware documentation I won't link here) that made it sound like the Wii U CPU should perform roughly comparable to Xenon for the most part, and better in some cases. So while the CPU itself is only slightly better, the fact that the system can offload stuff to the GPU and DSP leaves more computational performance for logic and AI. That's pretty much in line with my expectations.
 
MDX said:
(I wonder if this is where IGN got the 4x the power of the 360)



Ok, so if Nintendo is shooting for a gpu that can handle 1600p, they have plenty of room to handle a couple upads by only having to output max 1080p for a current gen game. I find it very telling that the original rumors of the WiiU had 4 pads working with the system, not one.

At any rate, I expect the WiiU to handle top tier current gen games @ 1080p with one, possibly 2 controllers, without problem. This should be case for the majority of the games for the next two to three years. Once the new consoles of MS and Sony come in, developers might be forced to drop the WiiU games down to 720p unless... the WiiU has become the defacto console to develop for.


.
Click to expand...

This is likely what is going to happen, setting power levels aside, it is the first console of next generation that will share all the same effects you'll see in the other consoles coming in ~2013/2014.

I don't think you should look at the console being able to output 1600p, yes originally I thought it would be easiest for Nintendo to just display 2 1080p imagines (roughly 1600p) but the problem is actually possibly in the wireless technology they are using, it might not handle that sort of bandwidth because of latency issues.

2upads seem to make the most sense, it would allow for 6 player party games, and also much more importantly very unique head to head games and co op games. The power level of the Wii U at launch, I would peg around where you are estimating, but it could only be 2 or 3 times the power of the 360.

ColdBlooder said:
Please stop with this useless power debate.

If Nintendo was releasing specs, this debate would reach levels that rip interdimendional holes into our dimention, summoning cuthulu on a skateboard, whos rapping the frash prince theme while annihilating all of us with killer bananas from outer space...

So seriously... stop
Click to expand...

You have to understand, there are people worried about the system that are not trolls, they just want to find value in the Wii U, my basic idea here is to point them to the bird and zelda demo being displayed twice, and being beyond 360's capabilities, that should indicate roughly twice the power in early dev kits, and ending up somewhere below 4 times the power.

There is stuff that makes it hard to say though, basically even if the GPU is 4times the power or more than a 360, the CPU isn't going to be, wsippel just found out something official that points to the cpu being comparable. There are many many factors that come into how powerful the Wii U will be, but the answer can only reasonably be more, with something like displaying twice the pixels of the 360 with the same effects as in the realm of possibilities, that shouldn't really scare anyone, but it likely does because everyone expects PS4 and Xbox3 to be alienware Desktop PCs from 2015.
 
Gahiggidy said:
Doesn't the tablet have a front facing camera? Coud take sneak photos of the players face and then superimpose he image someplace in the game the weird the player out.
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Perhaps while playing Eternal Darkness 2 you could find it superimposed... on a dead body O_O
 
ColdBlooder said:
It dosent make sense to discuss it. We have way too less to go on. Just wait for e3...
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I understand where you are coming from, so I started posting in the other thread again, figure they are still talking about it there and I don't want to derail my home thread (main reason I come to Gaf, other than to complain about the ME3 ending.)

Btw, I agree with what you are saying to a point, but not discussing what we do know (like more than 1GB ram and the gpu being over 1Tflop of power, well we've learned a lot that we didn't know a year ago, the original project cafe was full of speculation)

Having thought about it, no one ever really said that the Wii U was ever going to be a full "10x" leap over these consoles, my original estimates actually gave the Wii U AMD's Trinity APU and called it Triforce, said it would have no more than 2GB of ram... I'm doing it aren't I? see some of us just can't stop. lol

wsippel said:
I just posted one. ;)
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Yep, I'm pretty surprised, comparable in a lot of ways, but I hope that the clocks are the main problem, that sort of thing can be fixed. Ever since IBM said 45nm cpu though, I sort of figured that it would not blow away the 360's CPU, as it is likely not running near 3ghz. Nintendo has always made hardware that is powerful enough except for the Wii which is the exception, since they used Gamecube hardware.
 
wsippel said:
Just read something official (middleware documentation I won't link here) that made it sound like the Wii U CPU should perform roughly comparable to Xenon for the most part, and better in some cases. So while the CPU itself is only slightly better, the fact that the system can offload stuff to the GPU and DSP leaves more computational performance for logic and AI. That's pretty much in line with my expectations.
Click to expand...

Why is the CPU only comparable to or slightly better than Xenon? Wouldn't the embedded edram (32mb in Wii U vs 8mb in Xenon) provide an advantage or is it some specific situation that edram provides an advantage?
 
Wolfie5 said:
Hmm... Did anyone look at the Zelda demo and see if there was any drop in quality when the tablet switched from map to display the same thing on the screen as well as on the TV?

EDIT: If the techdemo was 720p and it could display also on a second screen, does that mean it could potentially show it in 1080p on the main screen if the setup was made so the tablet wasn´t used for anything than showing inventory/map? Might explain why Reggie said it was 1080P?
Click to expand...
Well, the closest equivalent to rendering at 720p + subscreen (480p) would be rendering at an oddball 864p (1536x864), however rendering once at 720p and then rerendering at a different angle at 480p would be more taxing than rendering once at 864p. By how much would be highly variable depending on the game, though I'm not really sure if it would approach the power requirement for rendering at 1080p with minimal use of the subscreen. 1080p requires 56%* more pixels to be rendered than 864p, so the overhead associated with rendering twice at 720p+480p would have to approach the same power requirement as that. I'm not an expert so I have no idea if it ever would.

It should be noted though that since the 3D scene in the Zelda demo is the same on the TV and the subscreen, it only needs to be rendered once and then the resulting frame copied/downscaled to the subscreen with a different HUD overlayed. So really it's just being rendered at 720p alone with some minor overhead for the copying/HUD stuff. In this case, bumping the scene up to 1080p would actually require rendering 125% more pixels. Pretty hefty.



*Comparing directly to the exact area of 720p+480p yields a non-repeating decimal, however comparing to the adjusted 864p is actually 0.5625 which is what the 16:9 ratio is. Not that it means anything; just thought it was interesting.


wsippel said:
Just read something official (middleware documentation I won't link here) that made it sound like the Wii U CPU should perform roughly comparable to Xenon for the most part, and better in some cases. So while the CPU itself is only slightly better, the fact that the system can offload stuff to the GPU and DSP leaves more computational performance for logic and AI. That's pretty much in line with my expectations.
Click to expand...
This just makes me think... if the CPUs in 720/PS4 outclass the one in Wii U, then ports from those other two systems will have to offload a significant amount of general processing to the GPU, gimping the lesser graphics further. Or if the graphics are prioritized, then the CPU alone won't be able to handle the same level of AI, physics, procedural animation, etc. which is actually something I pondered on here in the last thread I think.

And I can't imagine offloading general processing to the GPU would always be suitable anyway, so...

Agh! I can't think right now. I could very well be misunderstanding what exactly you mean.
 
wsippel said:
Just read something official (middleware documentation I won't link here) that made it sound like the Wii U CPU should perform roughly comparable to Xenon for the most part, and better in some cases. So while the CPU itself is only slightly better, the fact that the system can offload stuff to the GPU and DSP leaves more computational performance for logic and AI. That's pretty much in line with my expectations.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Have you any more info about the DSP? First I've heard of it.
 
jump_button said:
dont get why some are worrying they cant run two screen at the same time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVKMMYFbVgk
Click to expand...

Thats why im so not worried about the whole "power issue". This should prove it has enough power. This demo was even supposely made with a V1 devkit.

This whole power discussion is so useless at this point... We have two tech demos filmed FROM A SCREEN and a few devs contradicting each other with dubious statements.

Thats not exactly alot to go on...
 
ColdBlooder said:
Thats why im so not worried about the whole "power issue". This should prove it has enough power. This demo was even supposely made with a V1 devkit.

This whole power discussion is so useless at this point... We have two tech demos filmed FROM A SCREEN and a few devs contradicting each other with dubious statements.

Thats not exactly alot to go on...
Click to expand...
It's still interesting to discuss.

Well, up until people start freaking the fuck out. Then it's just embarrassing.


guek said:
Good thing some of us are into that big ol' badonkadonk, mirite?

...guys?
Click to expand...
*brofist*

Wait, we're talking about having butts in our face right?

I mean, uh... I don't like that at all...


Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go dream about things other than butts in my face.

Yup, definitely won't have anything to do with butts...

...in my face............
 
I don't know, you have people that tell you the tech demos were not impressive, and I'm not in this camp but in the same time you can also read some back pedalling like " but it's just a demo not a game, it won't look like that..." which imply that's not some unimpressive outdated thing.
In the end we still clearly can't say where this console is, because every posters that know something don't tell us the same thing even if we apparently are in the same range.
But if those demos are made to show what you can expect from a full game, I think that's really good, they have a density with the lighting and other improvements that we don't see on current consoles.
 
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