Yeah, but I thought that ARM was making strides in that field:
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~meesh/cmsc411/website/proj01/arm/dsp.html
Wii U Speculation Thread The Third: Casting Dreams in The Castle of Miyamoto
- Thread starter AceBandage
- Start date
Yeah, but I thought that ARM was making strides in that field:
Them being one gen behind will actually come in handy!
AceBandage
Banned
Nintendo would love to do it, that much is clear.
But I don't think they'll go as extreme as Sony and MS do... Which could actually help them sell systems in the long run.
But I don't think they'll go as extreme as Sony and MS do... Which could actually help them sell systems in the long run.
Yeah ya never know. Especially with all the talk about Nintendo listening to developer and publisher feedback on how to improve the system lol.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Get Super Mario Wii-U used, get to final boss, game resets and erases your file, Earthbound-style.
How is that clear?
And i also don't understand the reasoning behind it all. If anything, a game you are having doubts about, you'll think twice before buying it, instead of just buying it and selling it in case you don't like it. Games you really like that much, you won't be selling in the first place. In many cases, the "saved" money would then again go into a new sale of a different game. And indeed, in Nintendo's case, it (not blocking used games) would be an incentive to sell extra hardware... and thus extra software.
I think this entire anti-used-games thing is a serious case of poor man's logic. But maybe that's just me.
bgassassin
Member
Correct. I had misread wsippel's post before when he talked about the engine or game being CPU bound. I was thinking of CPU bound in a different context (apparently my brain blocked out everything after CPU bound) and thought he was saying it was a bottleneck, not that the engine or game was only using the CPU. When looking at what the CPU and GPU will have to do, there is also the audio DSP, ARM I/O controller, and hardware codec (console and controller each have one) to take a good amount of burden off of the other two.
Here is the link you requested.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20110190052.pdf
The primary section to read IMO is [0070] - [0084]. Sheet 2 is the console and sheet 9 is the controller.
There are other mentions sprinkled in the patent further down, but you'd get the gist of it from that spot. I don't expect you to go overboard in reading like I did, but I saved two copies so that I could have one to read and the other on the picture. Just giving that as a suggestion.
I guess after ruining One Piece for Thunder Monkey, I was due to have the same thing happen.
Also good posts by Azure and blu.
AceBandage
Banned
They are a business.
Used games means less money that they get.
See, when you buy a used game, nothing goes to the publisher. It all goes to the business that sells it.
However, it's rather foolish to try and stop it. Used books and music and movies haven't killed those industries. In fact, it helps them. But gaming is weird...
tkscz
Member
Not too many pages back, Throk speculated that the WiiU's GPU could be based off a HD radeon 7770 for it's final GPU, a newer GPU with SPU's equal to a HD radeon 4830. My question is, why is that so far fetched for some people are this bored to believe?
To me it makes perfect sense. Rather than basing it on a GPU that's 55nm big, fewer flops, doesn't support the newest sharders wanted by devs, and would probably be harder to keep cool, they would base it on a 28nm GPU, that got more flops, even at lower clock speeds, had the latest shaders, and, due to it's size, would be easier to cool.
Another question, why do some people believe that the case we saw for the WiiU at last years E3, is the final case? We don't know if the final model will be bigger, and if it isn't, why would a bigger GPU make more sense than a smaller one in a little case?
To me it makes perfect sense. Rather than basing it on a GPU that's 55nm big, fewer flops, doesn't support the newest sharders wanted by devs, and would probably be harder to keep cool, they would base it on a 28nm GPU, that got more flops, even at lower clock speeds, had the latest shaders, and, due to it's size, would be easier to cool.
Another question, why do some people believe that the case we saw for the WiiU at last years E3, is the final case? We don't know if the final model will be bigger, and if it isn't, why would a bigger GPU make more sense than a smaller one in a little case?
AceBandage
Banned
It is very unlikely, given what we know about the GPU that it'll be based on a 28nm technology. Cost and development time frames being the biggest reasons.
This industry is far too short sighted and can't seem to think ahead
AceBandage
Banned
Yup, pretty much.
Maybe a second crash would be healthy for gaming, if it'll weed out the idiots.
Read the rest of my post. I think them being a business, doesn't make anything clear. More hardware sales, more software sales. Money from software that gets sold, will in many cases go back into the gaming budget. I would like to see some proof about the fact that this would have a negative effect on game sales.
If anything, the fact that they let you move your bought games from DS to 3DS, would indicate the opposite. It would be much easier for them to say downloaded games stay on the system they're purchased for. If you want the same game on a different system, you'll need to buy it again. That would be so much easier, yet they don't. And we all know how they like to resell old software.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
It would be most odd for Nintendo to talk about stalling their full-game download plans because of their relationship with GameStop and the like, and then integrate an anti-used games policy.
I don't see it happening. I think they'll just very slowly edge towards a DD future without really thinking about blocking used games.
I don't see it happening. I think they'll just very slowly edge towards a DD future without really thinking about blocking used games.
tkscz
Member
Well, if the System isn't going to be released until holiday 2012 (which is what I believe anyway), then Nintendo still has time before they release the final version. In said time who knows what they'll tweak. Hell, v5 of the dev kits are finally released and I'm not sure we know what changes were made. Just that there were changes made.
bgassassin
Member
Because considering how Nintendo seems to be designing this console, I don't see them pushing for the GPGPU functionality of CUs in Southern Islands. That was primarily what SI brought to the table. That and allowing AMD to get more shaders in their top line GPUs. It wasn't a change to improve graphics.
Other than the 28nm aspect, they don't have to use SI to get those things you mentioned.
The case is most likely going to remain as is, but some IMO overstate the issue of the size of that case vs the power it could handle.
About the use of Wii Remote in Wii U, I saw this image:
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I really hope that Wii U utilize only Wii Remote Plus and not the inaccurate and shit Wii Remote.
I hope that Wii U come with 1 tablet and 1 wii-motion plus in box, to make that the standard control.
I think that they said that only Remoteplus will be compatible with WiiU games.
Of course, normal wiimote will be backward compatible with wii games.
I don't think they ever said that, but I'd be thrilled to see a quote.
Fun fact: On 360, IO often blows another 15 - 30% of the CPU (according to Coding for Multiple Cores, Bruce Dawson & Chuck Walbourn, Microsoft Game Technology Group). In fact, both IO and audio are usually more demanding than physics or AI. Pretty interesting.
bgassassin
Member
Something I kept forgetting to mention is awhile back wsippel or someone said something about the flash memory and caching, and I think the patent indicated something like that.
I also keep forgetting to add that the patent still won't obviously contain everything possible, so the I/O and other components may still be doing more than what we seem to know.
I also keep forgetting to add that the patent still won't obviously contain everything possible, so the I/O and other components may still be doing more than what we seem to know.
I guess we have another reason why AI hasn't advanced as much as we'd hope.
Jorok Goldblade
Member
About the use of Wii Remote in Wii U, I saw this image:
I really hope that Wii U utilize only Wii Remote Plus and not the inaccurate and shit Wii Remote.
I hope that Wii U come with 1 tablet and 1 wii-motion plus in box, to make that the standard control.
If Nintendo wants to reset the standard to Wii Remote +, they'll have to include one in the box. I could easily see the system coming with a U-Pad, Remote +, and Nunchuck. If they don't, developers won't develop for the +'s extra fidelity.
The fact that that business and creativity is so intertwined in the gaming industry is so horribly depressing. I mean who in the movie industry looks forward to a Sony Classics film over a Charlie Kaufman film. For example. The obsession in this field with companies instead of artists frustrates me to no end. Zelda should should be by Aonuma, Mario should be by Koizumi; whatever. The whole fanboy thing - and peniswatts technology shit - is keeping the whole medium back. It's honestly embarrassing. I don't even play many games these days because they're all generic sci-fi, generic fantasy (is there any other type?) or fucking Tom Clancy rip-offs. I have so much hope for this medium but it hurts to look sometimes (the Mass Effect ending thing makes me feel depressed for humanity).
That being said, and i'm so drunk right now so sorry for rambling.
I will buy a Wii U the instant it comes out if there's a decent game at launch. Even it was an overclocked Wii that would hold true. The only things from this generation that i have felt that have advanced the form have been the Galaxy series, the wii controller, GTA4 and a heap of XBLA/PSN/Steam games. Specs honestly don't matter. GTA4 is the only game of the gen that has wowed me because it is convincing. I didn't gove a fuck about the story, but driving over a bridge listening to Marvin Gaye and seeing NPCs smoking and going about their lives was oddly touching. But Majora's Mask and Animal Crossing did the same thing on the N64, really.
What i'm saying is, then, that game design is far more important than a bit of silicon. I think, hopefully, that most of the creatives at Nintendo understand that. I can't help but feel that iOS and the handheld systems are going to be the only feasible outlets for anyone with a decent - but not obviously marketable - idea in this industry and that's pretty sad.
That being said, and i'm so drunk right now so sorry for rambling.
I will buy a Wii U the instant it comes out if there's a decent game at launch. Even it was an overclocked Wii that would hold true. The only things from this generation that i have felt that have advanced the form have been the Galaxy series, the wii controller, GTA4 and a heap of XBLA/PSN/Steam games. Specs honestly don't matter. GTA4 is the only game of the gen that has wowed me because it is convincing. I didn't gove a fuck about the story, but driving over a bridge listening to Marvin Gaye and seeing NPCs smoking and going about their lives was oddly touching. But Majora's Mask and Animal Crossing did the same thing on the N64, really.
What i'm saying is, then, that game design is far more important than a bit of silicon. I think, hopefully, that most of the creatives at Nintendo understand that. I can't help but feel that iOS and the handheld systems are going to be the only feasible outlets for anyone with a decent - but not obviously marketable - idea in this industry and that's pretty sad.
Honestly, I'm surprised to see how many people resonate with my not-so-eloquent feelings regarding the future of gaming. I just happen to love this hobby a lot and would like to see it reach a point where it's as widespread and adopted a media as movies and television, but on it's own merits. It's a enthusiasm I've had since I was younger and mislabeled as nerd because I appreciated gaming and was enthusiastic to talk about it but no one shared the same enthusiasm level.
It's not so much that people find it hard to believe and discredit it for as much (well not on my end anyway), but we have people regularly coming in here with modest understanding of how console design works and we don't want them walking away thinking "Nintendo's just going to order a bunch of HD Radeon *insert model number here*-s, slap them in the system, and call it a day. Whatever Nintendo makes for the system will be a massively customized part far in actual design from consumer GPUs just because their tailored for Nintendo's own purposes. All we're here doing with speculation regarding those cards is trying to draw parallels and boundaries within which this custom part could fall in performance and efficiency.
On a bit of a tangent, it's really a little funny to see some people talk about what can or can't be done in a form like Wii U's without realizing how much GPUs have progressed since 2005 especially in the areas of size and heat dissipation.
It's not so much that people find it hard to believe and discredit it for as much (well not on my end anyway), but we have people regularly coming in here with modest understanding of how console design works and we don't want them walking away thinking "Nintendo's just going to order a bunch of HD Radeon *insert model number here*-s, slap them in the system, and call it a day. Whatever Nintendo makes for the system will be a massively customized part far in actual design from consumer GPUs just because their tailored for Nintendo's own purposes. All we're here doing with speculation regarding those cards is trying to draw parallels and boundaries within which this custom part could fall in performance and efficiency.
On a bit of a tangent, it's really a little funny to see some people talk about what can or can't be done in a form like Wii U's without realizing how much GPUs have progressed since 2005 especially in the areas of size and heat dissipation.
It sounds more like wishful thinking that they hope developers will choose to support MotionPlus, rather than it being something they'll mandate.
...so are Nintendo? Why else do you think they wanted to retain the Wii brand?
No really, it's true. If you release a game that requires an HDD for a system that doesn't come with one, your audience is instantly limited. It's like releasing a motion-plus or N64 Expansio Pack required game.
Thank you, I was looking for those quotes.
But I have to admit that it's not exactly a "firm sentence", let's say.
I find quite interesting the Iwata Asks column where he interviewed Wii's development team.
In the first page of the column Genyo Takeda said very interesting things:
"Takeda: This may sound paradoxical, but if we had followed the existing Roadmaps we would have aimed to make it "faster and flashier." In other words, we would have tried to improve the speed at which it displays stunning graphics. But we could not help but ask ourselves, "How big an impact would that direction really have on our customers?" During development, we came to realize the sheer inefficiency of this path when we compared the hardships and costs of development against any new experiences that might be had by our customers."
Iwata: When did you start feeling that way?
Takeda: It must have been about a year after we started developing Wii. After speaking with Nintendo's development partners, I became keenly aware of the fact that there is no end to the desire of those who just want more. Give them one, they ask for two. Give them two, and next time they will ask for five instead of three. Then they want ten, thirty, a hundred, their desire growing exponentially. Giving in to this will lead us nowhere in the end. I started to feel unsure about following that path about a year into development."
Iwata: In general, no engineer hates higher performance. As an engineer, didn't you experience any inner conflict when it was decided that we would not necessarily take Wii in the direction of sheer horsepower alone?
Shiota Yes, there was some conflict. To be honest, I even felt quite anxious about it. After all, it takes a lot of courage to divert from the Roadmaps. I was especially concerned when it was still not very clear to me what could be done with such a machine. The hurdle of reducing power consumption could be overcome. We were certain that we could achieve this goal in the early stages of development. But the conflict and concern did not go away until it was clear how this would change the gaming experience. Once the concept of Wii as “a console where something new happens every day” became clear, we were certain that we had made the right choice. This concept is made possible by the fact that Wii can stay on for 24 hours a day.
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/wii_console/0/0
In the first page of the column Genyo Takeda said very interesting things:
"Takeda: This may sound paradoxical, but if we had followed the existing Roadmaps we would have aimed to make it "faster and flashier." In other words, we would have tried to improve the speed at which it displays stunning graphics. But we could not help but ask ourselves, "How big an impact would that direction really have on our customers?" During development, we came to realize the sheer inefficiency of this path when we compared the hardships and costs of development against any new experiences that might be had by our customers."
Iwata: When did you start feeling that way?
Takeda: It must have been about a year after we started developing Wii. After speaking with Nintendo's development partners, I became keenly aware of the fact that there is no end to the desire of those who just want more. Give them one, they ask for two. Give them two, and next time they will ask for five instead of three. Then they want ten, thirty, a hundred, their desire growing exponentially. Giving in to this will lead us nowhere in the end. I started to feel unsure about following that path about a year into development."
Iwata: In general, no engineer hates higher performance. As an engineer, didn't you experience any inner conflict when it was decided that we would not necessarily take Wii in the direction of sheer horsepower alone?
Shiota Yes, there was some conflict. To be honest, I even felt quite anxious about it. After all, it takes a lot of courage to divert from the Roadmaps. I was especially concerned when it was still not very clear to me what could be done with such a machine. The hurdle of reducing power consumption could be overcome. We were certain that we could achieve this goal in the early stages of development. But the conflict and concern did not go away until it was clear how this would change the gaming experience. Once the concept of Wii as “a console where something new happens every day” became clear, we were certain that we had made the right choice. This concept is made possible by the fact that Wii can stay on for 24 hours a day.
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/wii_console/0/0
Yeah exactly the same really. Even my open minded arty friends dismiss it completely. To be honest, though, the industry doesn't do it self too many favours. It caters to teenage - in age and spirit - boys. It doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, really. the Xbox 720 and PS4 threads make it even more obvious.
Takeda's a pretty cool guy, makes
tkscz
Member
This is Epic studios in a nutshell.
AceBandage
Banned
Gaming is certainly still in its infancy, in terms of how it acts.
It really needs to evolve into a cultural thing like Books and TV has.
Great post.
Yeah. It's tragic that such a fantastic advancement in game control on consoles has been mostly greeted with a shrug.
I'm really hoping that Nintendo will include a Wii remote in the Wii U package, just to maintain it as a standard controller and encourage developers to take advantage of it. Alas, I don't see it happening.
Just wanted to come here and let you know you win the price for the most stupid comment on NeoGAF for this week. Congratulations!
AceBandage
Banned
Everyone says this, "It's only in its infancy, just give it time blah blah" but is it? Are these things inevitable? Seems to me that gaming is the only art form that has consciously tried to get emulate another the older it's got. Film went in the completely opposite direction. I honestly don't share your optimistic view of the industry's future.
But sorry to ruin your speculation thread, I've been lurking since it began.
Shikamaru Ninja
任天å ã® å¿è
It is developers reacting to the consumers. Pointer controls have not really gone further than a niche following really. I am sure they have done several surveys focus groups on the matter already. But anecdotally, were people overtaken by using move on Resident Evil 5 and Killzone 3? The majority probably took comfort and familiarity over precision.
Personally. I don't think i can be asked to play a 10-20 hour game upright centering my Wii pointer control.
AceBandage
Banned
It in its infancy in that it hasn't reached any kind of point where people can really decide where it should go.
You have so many companies pulling it in so many directions right now.
With TV and Movies, it was fairly simple. There was a pretty clear idea of what people wanted.
But because of the way that you interact with gaming, everyone has their own thoughts on what makes it great.
Be that simple cheap games or big grandiose expensive ones and everything in between.
It's not so much an optimistic view of the future of the industry, rather than just stating that there's still a lot of room for things to change.
It's because it came with the Trojan horse that was the Wii Remote. I appreciate motion controls mind you, but the stigma is on pointer controls as well from people generalizing everything Wii Remote as "motion controls" and writing it off due to their experiences with poor usages of said controls.
The part that sucks though is that pointer controls are a quantum leap on par with the joystick & d-pad and the potential will never be tapped as long as developers aren't building with them in mind. =/
Hero of Legend
Member
The NDA will surely be lifted on Sunday
... What NDA?
Is this the same BS that said one was to expire last week?