Wii U Speculation Thread The Third: Casting Dreams in The Castle of Miyamoto

A DSP is a dedicated piece of hardware, in this case specifically designed to process audio for the system. The ARM CPU is a general purpose, probably the I/O controller bgassassin is referring to.

This would be very similar to Wii. The ARM9 processor (starlet) handled I/O and security and there was also a DSP for audio.

Yeah, but I thought that ARM was making strides in that field:

Digital Signal Processing made Easy by ARM Architecture

The Piccolo functions as an integrated co-processor to a standard ARM microprocessor allowing a second DSP-oriented data path and associated DSP instruction set to integrate into a standard ARM 32-bit RISC/16-bit Thumb system. This configuration allows the co-processor to reuse data by sharing the same single system bus. Such a system is cost effective and power efficient.
http://www.cs.umd.edu/~meesh/cmsc411/website/proj01/arm/dsp.html
 
The more I think about it, the more I pray to god Nintendo does not try this anti used-games approach, that recent rumors suggest Microsoft and Sony are doing.
 
Nintendo would love to do it, that much is clear.
But I don't think they'll go as extreme as Sony and MS do... Which could actually help them sell systems in the long run.
 
The more I think about it, the more I pray to god Nintendo does not try this anti used-games approach, that recent rumors suggest Microsoft and Sony are doing.

Yeah ya never know. Especially with all the talk about Nintendo listening to developer and publisher feedback on how to improve the system lol.
 
Nintendo would love to do it, that much is clear.
But I don't think they'll go as extreme as Sony and MS do... Which could actually help them sell systems in the long run.

How is that clear?

And i also don't understand the reasoning behind it all. If anything, a game you are having doubts about, you'll think twice before buying it, instead of just buying it and selling it in case you don't like it. Games you really like that much, you won't be selling in the first place. In many cases, the "saved" money would then again go into a new sale of a different game. And indeed, in Nintendo's case, it (not blocking used games) would be an incentive to sell extra hardware... and thus extra software.

I think this entire anti-used-games thing is a serious case of poor man's logic. But maybe that's just me.
 
About the use of Wii Remote in Wii U, I saw this image:

Wii%20U%20(13).jpg


I really hope that Wii U utilize only Wii Remote Plus and not the inaccurate and shit Wii Remote.

I hope that Wii U come with 1 tablet and 1 wii-motion plus in box, to make that the standard control.
 
It would be used for similar things as the ARM9 in Wii, I/O, security, maybe even more this time considering what bgassassin said earlier regarding how much it helps the main CPU.

Correct. I had misread wsippel's post before when he talked about the engine or game being CPU bound. I was thinking of CPU bound in a different context (apparently my brain blocked out everything after CPU bound) and thought he was saying it was a bottleneck, not that the engine or game was only using the CPU. When looking at what the CPU and GPU will have to do, there is also the audio DSP, ARM I/O controller, and hardware codec (console and controller each have one) to take a good amount of burden off of the other two.

Here is the link you requested.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20110190052.pdf

The primary section to read IMO is [0070] - [0084]. Sheet 2 is the console and sheet 9 is the controller.

There are other mentions sprinkled in the patent further down, but you'd get the gist of it from that spot. I don't expect you to go overboard in reading like I did, but I saved two copies so that I could have one to read and the other on the picture. Just giving that as a suggestion. :)

Get Super Mario Wii-U used, get to final boss, game resets and erases your file, Earthbound-style.

I guess after ruining One Piece for Thunder Monkey, I was due to have the same thing happen.



Also good posts by Azure and blu.
 
How is that clear?

And i also don't understand the reasoning behind it all. If anything, a game you are having doubts about, you'll think twice before buying it, instead of just buying it and selling it in case you don't like it. Games you really like that much, you won't be selling in the first place. In many cases, the "saved" money would then again go into a new sale of a different game. And indeed, in Nintendo's case, it would be an incentive to sell extra hardware... and thus extra software.

I think this entire anti-used-games thing is a serious case of poor man's logic. But maybe that's just me.

They are a business.
Used games means less money that they get.

See, when you buy a used game, nothing goes to the publisher. It all goes to the business that sells it.

However, it's rather foolish to try and stop it. Used books and music and movies haven't killed those industries. In fact, it helps them. But gaming is weird...
 
Not too many pages back, Throk speculated that the WiiU's GPU could be based off a HD radeon 7770 for it's final GPU, a newer GPU with SPU's equal to a HD radeon 4830. My question is, why is that so far fetched for some people are this bored to believe?

To me it makes perfect sense. Rather than basing it on a GPU that's 55nm big, fewer flops, doesn't support the newest sharders wanted by devs, and would probably be harder to keep cool, they would base it on a 28nm GPU, that got more flops, even at lower clock speeds, had the latest shaders, and, due to it's size, would be easier to cool.

Another question, why do some people believe that the case we saw for the WiiU at last years E3, is the final case? We don't know if the final model will be bigger, and if it isn't, why would a bigger GPU make more sense than a smaller one in a little case?
 
Not too many pages back, Throk speculated that the WiiU's GPU could be based off a HD radeon 7770 for it's final GPU, a newer GPU with SPU's equal to a HD radeon 4830. My question is, why is that so far fetched for some people are this bored to believe?

To me it makes perfect sense. Rather than basing it on a GPU that's 55nm big, fewer flops, doesn't support the newest sharders wanted by devs, and would probably be harder to keep cool, they would base it on a 28nm GPU, that got more flops, even at lower clock speeds, had the latest shaders, and, due to it's size, would be easier to cool.

Another question, why do some people believe that the case we saw for the WiiU at last years E3, is the final case? We don't know if the final model will be bigger, and if it isn't, why would a bigger GPU make more sense than a smaller one in a little case?

It is very unlikely, given what we know about the GPU that it'll be based on a 28nm technology. Cost and development time frames being the biggest reasons.
 
They are a business.
Used games means less money that they get.

See, when you buy a used game, nothing goes to the publisher. It all goes to the business that sells it.

However, it's rather foolish to try and stop it. Used books and music and movies haven't killed those industries. In fact, it helps them. But gaming is weird...

Read the rest of my post. I think them being a business, doesn't make anything clear. More hardware sales, more software sales. Money from software that gets sold, will in many cases go back into the gaming budget. I would like to see some proof about the fact that this would have a negative effect on game sales.

If anything, the fact that they let you move your bought games from DS to 3DS, would indicate the opposite. It would be much easier for them to say downloaded games stay on the system they're purchased for. If you want the same game on a different system, you'll need to buy it again. That would be so much easier, yet they don't. And we all know how they like to resell old software.
 
Ok, let me delve some in the recent 'what developers want from next-gen' talk that's been popular lately, but from an entirely Western perspective.

1. Middleware providers want PC-like consoles in terms of features and power. Which is natural, as the product of those developers is 'new tech' which, let's not fool ourselves, is made possible not so much by sw breakthroughs as by hw advancements. In this regard, those parties don't really care about the consumer market - their income does not come (primarily) from that. They are a major force behind the 'AAA..A' push we're seeing today (the other proponents being mega-publishers who want their grounds clear from 'weeds'). Unsurprisingly quite a few independent game studios bit the 'HD experience' bate at the start of this cycle - who'd want to be left behind if everybody left and right was rushing to Klondyke? I find the case of Denis Dyack/SK particularly telling: at the start of the gen he was an evangelist of 'hollywood-style AAA+ productions made possible by huge teams using advanced middleware running on HD powerhouses' (paraphrasing his various statements from that period). Fast-forward a couple of years when he was already suing Epic for underdelivering on middleware promises and contractual obligations. And we know how Too Human went - SK are grasping for their breath ATM. For this group of middleware developers, nintedo's philosophy is detrimental - they'll always pay lip service to it, but that's not what they really want the market to be heading, and they never will.

2. Regular game companies who care about their consumer base, and for whom 'advancements' in the revenue stream from the end consumer are where the gist is. Those guys ideally want huge install bases and subscription-based revenue. For them the hardware prowess is secondary - they could be happy on an ipad if it was not for Apple dictating the rules. Such players would be perfectly fine with nintendo, with the implied remark nintendo does not screw up with the online. Which takes us to..

3. Blizzard and Valve. Those guys are the self-made success stories of the Western game industry - one of them with the 'next-gen' subscription-based revenue, the other - with the own DD service, both with huge install bases, both playing by their own rules, building their own kingdoms. Of course, not without their own cloudy weathers. Their interest in nintendo's offerings is entirely dictated by what the weather forecast in their own kingdom says. In this regard, IF they decided to do business with nintendo, they'd be more aligned with (2) than with (1) above - a viable online system is way more important to them, than the spit'n'shine the hw offers.

Excellent post sir. I'd seen glimpses of this perspective before, but nobody has ever really laid it out like this before. Thank You.
 
It would be most odd for Nintendo to talk about stalling their full-game download plans because of their relationship with GameStop and the like, and then integrate an anti-used games policy.

I don't see it happening. I think they'll just very slowly edge towards a DD future without really thinking about blocking used games.
 
It is very unlikely, given what we know about the GPU that it'll be based on a 28nm technology. Cost and development time frames being the biggest reasons.

Well, if the System isn't going to be released until holiday 2012 (which is what I believe anyway), then Nintendo still has time before they release the final version. In said time who knows what they'll tweak. Hell, v5 of the dev kits are finally released and I'm not sure we know what changes were made. Just that there were changes made.
 
Not too many pages back, Throk speculated that the WiiU's GPU could be based off a HD radeon 7770 for it's final GPU, a newer GPU with SPU's equal to a HD radeon 4830. My question is, why is that so far fetched for some people are this bored to believe?

To me it makes perfect sense. Rather than basing it on a GPU that's 55nm big, fewer flops, doesn't support the newest sharders wanted by devs, and would probably be harder to keep cool, they would base it on a 28nm GPU, that got more flops, even at lower clock speeds, had the latest shaders, and, due to it's size, would be easier to cool.

Another question, why do some people believe that the case we saw for the WiiU at last years E3, is the final case? We don't know if the final model will be bigger, and if it isn't, why would a bigger GPU make more sense than a smaller one in a little case?

Because considering how Nintendo seems to be designing this console, I don't see them pushing for the GPGPU functionality of CUs in Southern Islands. That was primarily what SI brought to the table. That and allowing AMD to get more shaders in their top line GPUs. It wasn't a change to improve graphics.

Other than the 28nm aspect, they don't have to use SI to get those things you mentioned.

The case is most likely going to remain as is, but some IMO overstate the issue of the size of that case vs the power it could handle.
 
About the use of Wii Remote in Wii U, I saw this image:

Wii%20U%20(13).jpg


I really hope that Wii U utilize only Wii Remote Plus and not the inaccurate and shit Wii Remote.

I hope that Wii U come with 1 tablet and 1 wii-motion plus in box, to make that the standard control.

I think that they said that only Remoteplus will be compatible with WiiU games.
Of course, normal wiimote will be backward compatible with wii games.
 
A DSP is a dedicated piece of hardware, in this case specifically designed to process audio for the system. The ARM CPU is a general purpose, probably the I/O controller bgassassin is referring to.

This would be very similar to Wii. The ARM9 processor (starlet) handled I/O and security and there was also a DSP for audio.
Fun fact: On 360, IO often blows another 15 - 30% of the CPU (according to Coding for Multiple Cores, Bruce Dawson & Chuck Walbourn, Microsoft Game Technology Group). In fact, both IO and audio are usually more demanding than physics or AI. Pretty interesting.
 
Something I kept forgetting to mention is awhile back wsippel or someone said something about the flash memory and caching, and I think the patent indicated something like that.

I also keep forgetting to add that the patent still won't obviously contain everything possible, so the I/O and other components may still be doing more than what we seem to know.
 
Fun fact: On 360, IO often blows another 15 - 30% of the CPU (according to Coding for Multiple Cores, Bruce Dawson & Chuck Walbourn, Microsoft Game Technology Group). In fact, both IO and audio are usually more demanding than physics or AI. Pretty interesting.
I guess we have another reason why AI hasn't advanced as much as we'd hope.
 
About the use of Wii Remote in Wii U, I saw this image:

Wii%20U%20(13).jpg


I really hope that Wii U utilize only Wii Remote Plus and not the inaccurate and shit Wii Remote.

I hope that Wii U come with 1 tablet and 1 wii-motion plus in box, to make that the standard control.

If Nintendo wants to reset the standard to Wii Remote +, they'll have to include one in the box. I could easily see the system coming with a U-Pad, Remote +, and Nunchuck. If they don't, developers won't develop for the +'s extra fidelity.
 
The fact that that business and creativity is so intertwined in the gaming industry is so horribly depressing. I mean who in the movie industry looks forward to a Sony Classics film over a Charlie Kaufman film. For example. The obsession in this field with companies instead of artists frustrates me to no end. Zelda should should be by Aonuma, Mario should be by Koizumi; whatever. The whole fanboy thing - and peniswatts technology shit - is keeping the whole medium back. It's honestly embarrassing. I don't even play many games these days because they're all generic sci-fi, generic fantasy (is there any other type?) or fucking Tom Clancy rip-offs. I have so much hope for this medium but it hurts to look sometimes (the Mass Effect ending thing makes me feel depressed for humanity).


That being said, and i'm so drunk right now so sorry for rambling.

I will buy a Wii U the instant it comes out if there's a decent game at launch. Even it was an overclocked Wii that would hold true. The only things from this generation that i have felt that have advanced the form have been the Galaxy series, the wii controller, GTA4 and a heap of XBLA/PSN/Steam games. Specs honestly don't matter. GTA4 is the only game of the gen that has wowed me because it is convincing. I didn't gove a fuck about the story, but driving over a bridge listening to Marvin Gaye and seeing NPCs smoking and going about their lives was oddly touching. But Majora's Mask and Animal Crossing did the same thing on the N64, really.

What i'm saying is, then, that game design is far more important than a bit of silicon. I think, hopefully, that most of the creatives at Nintendo understand that. I can't help but feel that iOS and the handheld systems are going to be the only feasible outlets for anyone with a decent - but not obviously marketable - idea in this industry and that's pretty sad.
 
I don't think they ever said that, but I'd be thrilled to see a quote.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/306219/wii-u-to-support-motion-plus-controllers-only/

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-06-08-will-wii-u-support-original-wiimote

Miyamoto explained: "The other thing was we wanted to make the switch to HD. Right now I'm planning that people can still be able to use their Wii Remote controllers that they already have, which means this time you now have five controllers to play with [including the Wii U controller]".

Nintendo boss Satoru Iwata clarified these remarks, adding: "You mean this new controller, and four Wii Remote Plus controllers for a total of five."

"Right," replied Shigsy. "Five controllers. And we have people play in many combinations. I feel like the Wii Remote has pretty much become its ideal form with the Wii Remote Plus".
 
Honestly, I'm surprised to see how many people resonate with my not-so-eloquent feelings regarding the future of gaming. I just happen to love this hobby a lot and would like to see it reach a point where it's as widespread and adopted a media as movies and television, but on it's own merits. It's a enthusiasm I've had since I was younger and mislabeled as nerd because I appreciated gaming and was enthusiastic to talk about it but no one shared the same enthusiasm level.

Not too many pages back, Throk speculated that the WiiU's GPU could be based off a HD radeon 7770 for it's final GPU, a newer GPU with SPU's equal to a HD radeon 4830. My question is, why is that so far fetched for some people are this bored to believe?

To me it makes perfect sense. Rather than basing it on a GPU that's 55nm big, fewer flops, doesn't support the newest sharders wanted by devs, and would probably be harder to keep cool, they would base it on a 28nm GPU, that got more flops, even at lower clock speeds, had the latest shaders, and, due to it's size, would be easier to cool.

Another question, why do some people believe that the case we saw for the WiiU at last years E3, is the final case? We don't know if the final model will be bigger, and if it isn't, why would a bigger GPU make more sense than a smaller one in a little case?

It's not so much that people find it hard to believe and discredit it for as much (well not on my end anyway), but we have people regularly coming in here with modest understanding of how console design works and we don't want them walking away thinking "Nintendo's just going to order a bunch of HD Radeon *insert model number here*-s, slap them in the system, and call it a day. Whatever Nintendo makes for the system will be a massively customized part far in actual design from consumer GPUs just because their tailored for Nintendo's own purposes. All we're here doing with speculation regarding those cards is trying to draw parallels and boundaries within which this custom part could fall in performance and efficiency.

On a bit of a tangent, it's really a little funny to see some people talk about what can or can't be done in a form like Wii U's without realizing how much GPUs have progressed since 2005 especially in the areas of size and heat dissipation.
 
You are assuming the regular WiiU owner will be a regular Wii owner and won't know about technical things like HDDs. Even with the Wii/3DS they've been telling people about SD Cards and their capacity.
...so are Nintendo? Why else do you think they wanted to retain the Wii brand?
No really, it's true. If you release a game that requires an HDD for a system that doesn't come with one, your audience is instantly limited. It's like releasing a motion-plus or N64 Expansio Pack required game.
 
I find quite interesting the Iwata Asks column where he interviewed Wii's development team.
In the first page of the column Genyo Takeda said very interesting things:

"Takeda: This may sound paradoxical, but if we had followed the existing Roadmaps we would have aimed to make it "faster and flashier." In other words, we would have tried to improve the speed at which it displays stunning graphics. But we could not help but ask ourselves, "How big an impact would that direction really have on our customers?" During development, we came to realize the sheer inefficiency of this path when we compared the hardships and costs of development against any new experiences that might be had by our customers."

Iwata: When did you start feeling that way?

Takeda: It must have been about a year after we started developing Wii. After speaking with Nintendo's development partners, I became keenly aware of the fact that there is no end to the desire of those who just want more. Give them one, they ask for two. Give them two, and next time they will ask for five instead of three. Then they want ten, thirty, a hundred, their desire growing exponentially. Giving in to this will lead us nowhere in the end. I started to feel unsure about following that path about a year into development."

Iwata: In general, no engineer hates higher performance. As an engineer, didn't you experience any inner conflict when it was decided that we would not necessarily take Wii in the direction of sheer horsepower alone?

Shiota Yes, there was some conflict. To be honest, I even felt quite anxious about it. After all, it takes a lot of courage to divert from the Roadmaps. I was especially concerned when it was still not very clear to me what could be done with such a machine. The hurdle of reducing power consumption could be overcome. We were certain that we could achieve this goal in the early stages of development. But the conflict and concern did not go away until it was clear how this would change the gaming experience. Once the concept of Wii as “a console where something new happens every day” became clear, we were certain that we had made the right choice. This concept is made possible by the fact that Wii can stay on for 24 hours a day.

http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/wii_console/0/0
 
Honestly, I'm surprised to see how many people resonate with my not-so-eloquent feelings regarding the future of gaming. I just happen to love this hobby a lot and would like to see it reach a point where it's as widespread and adopted a media as movies and television, but on it's own merits. It's a enthusiasm I've had since I was younger and mislabeled as nerd because I appreciated gaming and was enthusiastic to talk about it but no one shared the same enthusiasm level.

Yeah exactly the same really. Even my open minded arty friends dismiss it completely. To be honest, though, the industry doesn't do it self too many favours. It caters to teenage - in age and spirit - boys. It doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, really. the Xbox 720 and PS4 threads make it even more obvious.
 
After speaking with Nintendo's development partners, I became keenly aware of the fact that there is no end to the desire of those who just want more. Give them one, they ask for two. Give them two, and next time they will ask for five instead of three. Then they want ten, thirty, a hundred, their desire growing exponentially. Giving in to this will lead us nowhere in the end. I started to feel unsure about following that path about a year into development."

This is Epic studios in a nutshell.
 
Yeah exactly the same really. Even my open minded arty friends dismiss it completely. To be honest, though, the industry doesn't do it self too many favours. It caters to teenage - in age and spirit - boys. It doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, really. the Xbox 720 and PS4 threads make it even more obvious.

Gaming is certainly still in its infancy, in terms of how it acts.
It really needs to evolve into a cultural thing like Books and TV has.
 
Takeda: It must have been about a year after we started developing Wii. After speaking with Nintendo's development partners, I became keenly aware of the fact that there is no end to the desire of those who just want more. Give them one, they ask for two. Give them two, and next time they will ask for five instead of three. Then they want ten, thirty, a hundred, their desire growing exponentially. Giving in to this will lead us nowhere in the end. I started to feel unsure about following that path about a year into development."

This is so, so true.
 
The fact that that business and creativity is so intertwined in the gaming industry is so horribly depressing. I mean who in the movie industry looks forward to a Sony Classics film over a Charlie Kaufman film. For example. The obsession in this field with companies instead of artists frustrates me to no end. Zelda should should be by Aonuma, Mario should be by Koizumi; whatever. The whole fanboy thing - and peniswatts technology shit - is keeping the whole medium back. It's honestly embarrassing. I don't even play many games these days because they're all generic sci-fi, generic fantasy (is there any other type?) or fucking Tom Clancy rip-offs. I have so much hope for this medium but it hurts to look sometimes (the Mass Effect ending thing makes me feel depressed for humanity).


That being said, and i'm so drunk right now so sorry for rambling.

I will buy a Wii U the instant it comes out if there's a decent game at launch. Even it was an overclocked Wii that would hold true. The only things from this generation that i have felt that have advanced the form have been the Galaxy series, the wii controller, GTA4 and a heap of XBLA/PSN/Steam games. Specs honestly don't matter. GTA4 is the only game of the gen that has wowed me because it is convincing. I didn't gove a fuck about the story, but driving over a bridge listening to Marvin Gaye and seeing NPCs smoking and going about their lives was oddly touching. But Majora's Mask and Animal Crossing did the same thing on the N64, really.

What i'm saying is, then, that game design is far more important than a bit of silicon. I think, hopefully, that most of the creatives at Nintendo understand that. I can't help but feel that iOS and the handheld systems are going to be the only feasible outlets for anyone with a decent - but not obviously marketable - idea in this industry and that's pretty sad.
Great post.

Pointer controls better survive though, that's one thing I will get grumpy old man about if they don't persist to next generation.
Yeah. It's tragic that such a fantastic advancement in game control on consoles has been mostly greeted with a shrug.
I'm really hoping that Nintendo will include a Wii remote in the Wii U package, just to maintain it as a standard controller and encourage developers to take advantage of it. Alas, I don't see it happening.
 
Gaming is certainly still in its infancy, in terms of how it acts.
It really needs to evolve into a cultural thing like Books and TV has.

Everyone says this, "It's only in its infancy, just give it time blah blah" but is it? Are these things inevitable? Seems to me that gaming is the only art form that has consciously tried to get emulate another the older it's got. Film went in the completely opposite direction. I honestly don't share your optimistic view of the industry's future.

But sorry to ruin your speculation thread, I've been lurking since it began.
 
I'm really hoping that Nintendo will include a Wii remote in the Wii U package, just to maintain it as a standard controller and encourage developers to take advantage of it. Alas, I don't see it happening.

It is developers reacting to the consumers. Pointer controls have not really gone further than a niche following really. I am sure they have done several surveys focus groups on the matter already. But anecdotally, were people overtaken by using move on Resident Evil 5 and Killzone 3? The majority probably took comfort and familiarity over precision.

Personally. I don't think i can be asked to play a 10-20 hour game upright centering my Wii pointer control.
 
Everyone says this, "It's only in its infancy, just give it time blah blah" but is it? Are these things inevitable? Seems to me that gaming is the only art form that has consciously tried to get emulate another the older it's got. Film went in the completely opposite direction. I honestly don't share your optimistic view of the industry's future.

But sorry to ruin your speculation thread, I've been lurking since it began.

It in its infancy in that it hasn't reached any kind of point where people can really decide where it should go.
You have so many companies pulling it in so many directions right now.

With TV and Movies, it was fairly simple. There was a pretty clear idea of what people wanted.
But because of the way that you interact with gaming, everyone has their own thoughts on what makes it great.

Be that simple cheap games or big grandiose expensive ones and everything in between.

It's not so much an optimistic view of the future of the industry, rather than just stating that there's still a lot of room for things to change.
 
Yeah. It's tragic that such a fantastic advancement in game control on consoles has been mostly greeted with a shrug.
I'm really hoping that Nintendo will include a Wii remote in the Wii U package, just to maintain it as a standard controller and encourage developers to take advantage of it. Alas, I don't see it happening.

It's because it came with the Trojan horse that was the Wii Remote. I appreciate motion controls mind you, but the stigma is on pointer controls as well from people generalizing everything Wii Remote as "motion controls" and writing it off due to their experiences with poor usages of said controls.

The part that sucks though is that pointer controls are a quantum leap on par with the joystick & d-pad and the potential will never be tapped as long as developers aren't building with them in mind. =/
 
Personally. I don't think i can be asked to play a 10-20 hour game upright centering my Wii pointer control.

.....

Really

Moving your wrist is pretty hard aye.

And of course Henry Ford (apparently) said:

If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse.

Even though personally I quite like dual analogue controls they really are inferior to a mouse or pointer or touch screen.
 
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