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Windows 8 Tablets/Laptops/Laplets Cross Shopping Thread of Most Confusing Launch |OT|

W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
old vista computer (HP Pavilion dv6000)

RdGfy.png


running 8 just fine. (I did have trouble finding drivers though, stupid HP)
 
W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
Dreams-Visions said:
define "just fine" :D
Click to expand...
well I won't be playing games on this but everything works smoothly. no slow downs when using the start screen and office, iTunes, zune etc... all work fine. (iTunes being the slowest of course.). Windows like Explorer etc.. open instantly.
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
Windu said:
well I won't be playing games on this but everything works smoothly. no slow downs when using the start screen and office, iTunes, zune etc... all work fine. (iTunes being the slowest of course.). Windows like Explorer etc.. open instantly.
Click to expand...

Cools. Though I don't know if I've had a Windows format --> reload install outside of Vista that didn't start off smooth.

Does Windows 8 retain the WinSxS folder bullshit? It's just the worst on small SSD's.
 
W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
Dreams-Visions said:
Cools. Though I don't know if I've had a Windows format --> reload install outside of Vista that didn't start off smooth.

Does Windows 8 retain the WinSxS folder bullshit? It's just the worst on small SSD's.
Click to expand...
you can ignore that WinSxS number. (but yes I believe Windows 8 has it as well)
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/archive/2008/11/19/disk-space.aspx

We definitely get a lot of questions about the new (to Vista) Windows SxS directory (%System Root%\winsxs) and many folks believe this is a big consumer of disk space as just bringing up the properties on a newly installed system shows over 3000 files and over 3.5 GB of disk consumed. Over time this directory grows to even higher numbers. Yikes--below is an example from a Steven's home PC.

“Modularizing” the operating system was an engineering goal in Windows Vista. This was to solve a number of issues in legacy Windows related to installation, servicing and reliability. The Windows SxS directory represents the “installation and servicing state” of all system components. But in reality it doesn’t actually consume as much disk space as it appears when using the built-in tools (DIR and Explorer) to measure disk space used. The fact that we make it tricky for you to know how much space is actually consumed in a directory is definitely a fair point!

In practice, nearly every file in the WinSxS directory is a “hard link” to the physical files elsewhere on the system—meaning that the files are not actually in this directory. For instance in the WinSxS there might be a file called advapi32.dll that takes up >700K however what’s being reported is a hard link to the actual file that lives in the Windows\System32, and it will be counted twice (or more) when simply looking at the individual directories from Windows Explorer.

The value of this is that the servicing platform (the tools that deliver patches and service packs) in Windows can query the WinSxS directory to determine a number of key details about the state of the system, like what’s installed, or available to be installed (optional components, more on those later), what versions, and what updates are on the system to help determine applicability of Windows patches to your specific system. This functionality gives us increased servicing reliability and performance, and supports future engineering efforts providing additional system layering and great configurability.

The WinSxS directory also enables offline servicing, and makes Windows Vista “safe for imaging”. Prior to Windows Vista, inbox deployment support was through “Setup” only. IT professionals would install a single system, and then leverage any number of 3rd party tools to capture the installed state as a general image they then deployed to multiple systems. Windows wasn’t built to be “image aware”. This meant that greater than 80% of systems were deployed and serviced using a technology that wasn’t supported natively, and required IT departments to create custom solutions to deploy and manage Windows effectively. In addition, state stored in the WinSxS directory can be queried “offline”, meaning the image doesn’t have to be booted or running, and patches can be applied to it. These two features of WinSxS give great flexibility and cost reductions to IT departments who deploy Windows Vista, making it easier to create and then service standard corporate images offline.

While it’s true that WinSxS does consume some disk space by simply existing, and there are a number of metadata files, folders, manifests, and catalogs in it, it’s significantly smaller than reported. The actual amount of storage consumed varies, but on a typical system it is about 400MB. While that is not small, we think the robustness provided for servicing is a reasonable tradeoff.

So why does the shell report hard links the way it does? Hard links work to optimize disk footprint for duplicate files all over the system. Application developers can use this functionality to optimize the disk consumption of their applications as well. It’s critical that any path expected by an application appear as a physical file in the file system to support the appropriate loading of the actual file. In this case, the shell is just another application reporting on the files it sees. As a result of this confusion and a desire to reduce disk footprint, many folks have endeavored to just delete this directory to save space.

There have been several blogs and even some “underground” tools that tell you it’s ok to delete the WinSxS directory, and it’s certainly true that after installation, you can remove it from the system and it will appear that the system boots and runs fine. But as described above, this is a very bad practice, as you’re removing the ability to reliably service, all operating system components and the ability to update or configure optional components on your system. Windows Vista only supports the WinSxS directory on the physical drive in its originally installed location. The risks far outweigh the gains removing it or relocating it from the system, given the data described above.
Click to expand...
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
yn-neko hates a cat said:
How is WinSxS bad on small SSDs?
Click to expand...

The folder's size inflates over time as Windows and other applications installs updates as it backs up all the critical update files in case of a critical problem where it might need to grab a copy of the file. Right now, the WinSxS folder on my SSD is taking up 33% of my drive's space.

Windu said:
you can ignore that WinSxS number. (but yes I believe Windows 8 has it as well)
Click to expand...

only partially true. Use WinDirStat to see how much space WinSxS is actually taking up. For me it's all of this circled area:

winsxs3.png


It's been as high as 22GB. And regardless of source of the files, location or the reason, the bottom line is that the design of Windows -- requiring these update backups to pile up over time -- cost precious SSD space. So depending on the size of your SSD (say, 64GB), you're going to be fighting for free space eventually.
 
W

Windu

never heard about the cat, apparently
I think i'm going to side with Steven Sinofsky on this. He seems to know a lot about windows.
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
Windu said:
I think i'm going to side with Steven Sinofsky on this. He seems to know a lot about windows.
Click to expand...

and I'll side with the reality of my filling, wasted SSD space and we can both be happy.

when my SSD says it is full, I'll be sure to tell my SSD that Steven said it's not really full so I should be able to download and install more stuff.
 
Y

yn-neko hates a cat

Banned
Dreams-Visions said:
The folder's size inflates over time as Windows and other applications installs updates as it backs up all the critical update files in case of a critical problem where it might need to grab a copy of the file. Right now, the WinSxS folder on my SSD is taking up 33% of my drive's space.



only partially true. Use WinDirStat to see how much space WinSxS is actually taking up. For me it's all of this circled area:

winsxs3.png


It's been as high as 22GB. And regardless of source of the files, location or the reason, the bottom line is that the design of Windows -- requiring these update backups to pile up over time -- cost precious SSD space. So depending on the size of your SSD (say, 64GB), you're going to be fighting for free space eventually.
Click to expand...
To your tool, hard links will probably appear as real files (as they should since they are real files) but it's like you working two shifts at the same job and collecting two paychecks as two different employees even though you are only one person. If you delete a hard link, you deleted the pointer to that file in your MFT but there can be another entry in the MFT to that file. If you erase the data of a hard-link, you know you done fucked up right? Anyways, the point is your tool is seeing files linked under WinSxS that exist in other folders all over your hard drive. It's fine. Try not to ever look at WinSxS and you'll be happy.

There's a good history here of the paranoia here culminating to the blog entry Windu posted.

EDIT:
If you really want to have some fun... write quick C# application that aggregates all the files on your computer and then calculates the MD5 checksum and then stores the files in a Dictionary<byte[], List<string>> collection using the checksum as the key and a list of absolute file path as the value. You'll see some interesting things. If you're good with Win32 then you can probably enumerate the hardlink information directly but that's probably more work :(
 
P

popeutlal

Member
Third Strike said:
Why is it considered shitty? Isn't Asus known for making quality product?
Click to expand...
They're know for making good looking tablets with the worst quality control know in the industry. Their past 4 tablets (sans nexus) were the worst around. I'm assuming this tablet will not be any different.
 
C

cbrotherson

Member
Oh fer the love of...

Ok, so now Dell are saying the Latitude 10 is "up to 64GB" for storage, rather than the previously reported 128GB:

http://www.dell.com/us/soho/p/latitude-10-tablet/pd?~ck=anav

Which, as with most of the reports for the Windows 8 tablets, runs in contrary to earlier reports.

Are the press actually fact checking any of their stuff or are the companies just that nebulous about their specs and throwing stuff at a wall until someone goes "erm... that's not physically possible yet, Mr Marketing person"?
 
T

tino

Banned
cbrotherson said:
Oh fer the love of...

Ok, so now Dell are saying the Latitude 10 is "up to 64GB" for storage, rather than the previously reported 128GB:

http://www.dell.com/us/soho/p/latitude-10-tablet/pd?~ck=anav

Which, as with most of the reports for the Windows 8 tablets, runs in contrary to earlier reports.

Are the press actually fact checking any of their stuff or are the companies just that nebulous about their specs and throwing stuff at a wall until someone goes "erm... that's not physically possible yet, Mr Marketing person"?
Click to expand...


Maybe it changes from 128 eMMC to 64 SSD.

It has a micro USB charging port though, if you can use it to charge phone, its a plus.
 
C

cbrotherson

Member
tino said:
Maybe it changes from 128 eMMC to 64 SSD.

It has a micro USB charging port though, if you can use it to charge phone, its a plus.
Click to expand...

It's looking like reviews will be the deciding factor to work out these headache inducing plus and minus points. The bad reports of the Duo 11 pretty much killed its plus points for me, sadly, so looking forward to seeing how the rest pan out to make the decisions easier.
 
mhayze

mhayze

Member
Looking at the table in the OP, is the Sony slider really the only i5 tablet with an 8GB option? Before you ask why I need 8GB, I do. In fact I would pay for 16GB. If these tablets are like a lot of other ultra slim options already out there, non-upgradable 4GB RAM is probably going to end up being the most prominent factor in the obsolescence of these i5 tablets
along with the lack of a better GPU
.
 
M

maeh2k

Member
mhayze said:
Looking at the table in the OP, is the Sony slider really the only i5 tablet with an 8GB option? Before you ask why I need 8GB, I do. In fact I would pay for 16GB. If these tablets are like a lot of other ultra slim options already out there, non-upgradable 4GB RAM is probably going to end up being the most prominent factor in the obsolescence of these i5 tablets
along with the lack of a better GPU
.
Click to expand...

Some other hybrids offer 8GB, too. E.g. the Dell XPS 12 and the Lenovo IdeaPad Yoga 13.
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
out0v0rder said:
im reviewing the benchmarks on this page...http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-HD-Graphics-4000.69168.0.html
it looks like the best it could do is games from 5 years ago at 30 fps on medium settings.
Click to expand...

Yea, not so great for modern 3D games it seems. I thought it was a bit better than this.

If graphics are a big deal, maybe you guys should wait for the next generation of Intel processors? HD5000 will probably be a significant jump again. Otherwise, I'm sure TF2/HL2/Portal and other less demanding games like Bastion, Frozen Synapse, Defense Grid, Anomaly, Braid, and a number of other great games will run at max, full screen.

You shouldn't be buying one of these for gaming anyway. They're not gaming devices, people. Part of the damn point of a tablet is long battery life. I don't expect you'd get more than 2 hours of battery life on an i5 + HD4000 if you plan on binge gaming.
 
Y

yn-neko hates a cat

Banned
out0v0rder said:
checks new tablet specs....intel hd graphics 4000. aww man. im done, im gonna buy a real laptop.
Click to expand...

I think many of the OEMs are practicing the definition of the up-sell in this launch. People are launching with obvious features missing:
  • Maximum RAM configurations that don't make sense for their chipsets or form-factor
  • No GPS or NFC considering these are nowhere near the biggest cost factors
  • Last generation blue tooth technology for no logical reason
  • Low resolution screens when cheaper Android devices have higher resolution screens. Different supply chains you say? FROM THE SAME OEM??
  • No discrete graphics options even though some of these hybrids are essentially laptops with rotating screens. Hell, if nothing else says it, there thickness and weight speaks volumes

We will see 2nd generation windows 8 devices as soon as these OEMs understand what they can get away with. All it'll take is one OEM to release the device that makes no compromise for the others to fall into line however, it's hard to imagine anyone doing that.
 
D

Dreams-Visions

Member
yn-neko hates a cat said:
I think many of the OEMs are practicing the definition of the up-sell in this launch. People are launching with obvious features missing:
  • Maximum RAM configurations that don't make sense for their chipsets or form-factor
  • No GPS or NFC considering these are nowhere near the biggest cost factors
  • Last generation blue tooth technology for no logical reason
  • Low resolution screens when cheaper Android devices have higher resolution screens. Different supply chains you say? FROM THE SAME OEM??
  • No discrete graphics options even though some of these hybrids are essentially laptops with rotating screens. Hell, if nothing else says it, there thickness and weight speaks volumes

We will see 2nd generation windows 8 devices as soon as these OEMs understand what they can get away with. All it'll take is one OEM to release the device that makes no compromise for the others to fall into line however, it's hard to imagine anyone doing that.
Click to expand...

those who can wait would probably be wise to wait until spring when the new Intel chip starts finding its way into new computers.
 
G

Ghost

Chili Con Carnage!
yn-neko hates a cat said:
I think many of the OEMs are practicing the definition of the up-sell in this launch. People are launching with obvious features missing:
  • Maximum RAM configurations that don't make sense for their chipsets or form-factor
  • No GPS or NFC considering these are nowhere near the biggest cost factors
  • Last generation blue tooth technology for no logical reason
  • Low resolution screens when cheaper Android devices have higher resolution screens. Different supply chains you say? FROM THE SAME OEM??
  • No discrete graphics options even though some of these hybrids are essentially laptops with rotating screens. Hell, if nothing else says it, there thickness and weight speaks volumes

We will see 2nd generation windows 8 devices as soon as these OEMs understand what they can get away with. All it'll take is one OEM to release the device that makes no compromise for the others to fall into line however, it's hard to imagine anyone doing that.
Click to expand...

Easy to be cynical about it but to be honest it is a massive shift in computing, makes sense that the OEMs first devices are conservative and probably over priced.


Really I'm happy we've even managed to get as much choice as we have this year, looked like we might not even get touch screen laptops at one point.
 
P

Penguins&PolarBears

Member
giga said:
You're missing the point. I'm saying that 2.7lbs is still too heavy compared to today's best selling tablets. People who want tablets expect 10+ hour battery life and something less than 1.5lbs. That's not happening with convertibles. It's a very niche device that I'm not a fan of at all for those very reasons. Hell, I even think the 3rd gen iPad at 1.44lbs is too heavy.
Click to expand...

And you're missing the point that the Taichi and Yoga are Ultrabooks. Even if you never touched the screens and never used them as tablets they would be good ultrabooks. The fact that you can play with touch screen games and apps on them in a tablet mode is a bonus that makes them better than other ultrabooks.

I use my Samsung S7 Slate more than 85% of the time in the dock. Windows 8 is not necessarily the kind of experience where you're going to be using it as a tablet 90% of the time. Once you start having to type or do anything slightly complicated you immediately go looking for the keyboard and dock. I've had almost a year now with Windows 8 on a tablet, I know what to expect from the experience. This is not a leave the keyboard behind experience.

yn-neko hates a cat said:
[Transformer Book] That's a little more like it! Even though they didn't undock the tablet part, I still prefer this over the Taichi. But...

...I may even jump at a lower resolution to get the style of the Yoga. Dat sexy design!
Click to expand...

For me the choice is simply between the Transformer Book or Taichi as my next ultrabook. The problem with the Transformer Book is that it's going to be thicker because it has the two batteries, but it could also have much better battery life overall, but in tablet mode could actually be less than the Taichi. The design is nowhere near as elegant as the Taichi, with cheap looking chrome and big fan vents. But if the bigger sized Transformer Books with discrete graphics are reasonably priced I might go with that.
 
O

out0v0rder

Member
Dreams-Visions said:
Yea, not so great for modern 3D games it seems. I thought it was a bit better than this.

If graphics are a big deal, maybe you guys should wait for the next generation of Intel processors? HD5000 will probably be a significant jump again. Otherwise, I'm sure TF2/HL2/Portal and other less demanding games like Bastion, Frozen Synapse, Defense Grid, Anomaly, Braid, and a number of other great games will run at max, full screen.

You shouldn't be buying one of these for gaming anyway. They're not gaming devices, people. Part of the damn point of a tablet is long battery life. I don't expect you'd get more than 2 hours of battery life on an i5 + HD4000 if you plan on binge gaming.
Click to expand...

yeah im either gonna wait or buy a laptop.
they are so close to providing me with the "one device". the detachable keyboards are awesome, take it off and slip the tablet into a car mount and watch movies on the way to vegas, and then later attach the keyboard and have a borderlands 2 lan with the buddies. maybe next year. id buy at a high price.
 
Y

yn-neko hates a cat

Banned
Ghost said:
Easy to be cynical about it but to be honest it is a massive shift in computing, makes sense that the OEMs first devices are conservative and probably over priced.


Really I'm happy we've even managed to get as much choice as we have this year, looked like we might not even get touch screen laptops at one point.
Click to expand...

I was being a bit cynical about it only because some OEMs are pricing Android devices much lower for nearly identical hardware; I mean like by hundreds Aside from that, I understand that they're playing it safe but I honestly see that tepidness as an opportunity for an OEM to come out and play a leadership role. I was hoping Sony would be that but they disappointed me this launch. Lenovo on the other hand, even if I'm not impressed with some of their underlying specs, are really shining at the moment.
 
G

giga

Member
Penguins&PolarBears said:
And you're missing the point that the Taichi and Yoga are Ultrabooks. Even if you never touched the screens and never used them as tablets they would be good ultrabooks. The fact that you can play with touch screen games and apps on them in a tablet mode is a bonus that makes them better than other ultrabooks.

I use my Samsung S7 Slate more than 85% of the time in the dock. Windows 8 is not necessarily the kind of experience where you're going to be using it as a tablet 90% of the time. Once you start having to type or do anything slightly complicated you immediately go looking for the keyboard and dock. I've had almost a year now with Windows 8 on a tablet, I know what to expect from the experience. This is not a leave the keyboard behind experience.
Click to expand...
If I wanted an ultrabook, I'd get an ultrabook and save my money. The equivalent Zenbook UX31 is less than $1100. You're paying extra to make it a convertible with compromises.
 
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