And that's why in that specific sense Windows 8 offers nothing new while making the computing experience worse for many.
Windows 8's uptake falls behind Vista's pace
- Thread starter Canis lupus
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And that's why in that specific sense Windows 8 offers nothing new while making the computing experience worse for many.
they now show live info feed and you have bigger space with a lot more options.
breaking work flow, that's true. It would suck on a single screen desktop.
Delusibeta
Banned
Assuming:
a) it's not pinned anywhere
b) using only the mouse (so searching is out)
c) default folders
Windows 7: Five. Start button > All Programs > Accessories > Accessibility > Magnifying Lens.
Windows 8: Minimum five, can be higher. Start "button" > right click > All Apps > drag bar all the way to the right (here's where the multiple clicks come in) > Magnifying Lens.
cartoon_soldier
Member
Pin to taskbar...
that 'bar' entirely depends on your resolution, even then this is there for not dragging anything
start menu gets scroll bars too if it's too long or your resolution too low.
cartoon_soldier
Member
MS should have just allowed Desktop W8 version to disable Metro and we would be good. I don't care for full screen apps on my desktop usage (work, gaming, browsing).
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
How many can you pin? I can see 90+ tiles without scrolling. All accessible in 2 clicks very quickly.
What about a program you use once or twice a year? You going to pin it? I can pin it in a group on my Start screen that is just off screen, if on the off chance I do need I can get to it in less than 2 seconds. How long with it take you to twirl down folders to find it?
This is not about how you can customize your Start menu to launch a specific program quickly, in fact people are saying they should never have to modify their Windows ala Start8 and being forced to do that means the OS is badly designed, it's about what is the average time it takes you to access any program you have installed.
So again, what if you have a specific utility that serves a niche purpose that you use once or twice a year, so rarely that you can't remember the name of it. How long would it take you find it in the Start menu?
Angelus Errare
Banned
Can't you just use "Search Programs and Files"? Why do you need over 90 tiles on a screen anyway? People complain about iOS having 20 tiles on one screen.
Why do I have to use the start menu? I wouldn't pin anything I didn't use regularly in the start menu. I might just make a folder on my desktop and call it "Stuff I Only Need Occasionally" and stick a shortcut in there. Or I could just put the shortcut on the desktop.
Angelus Errare
Banned
You really can't get 90 on the screen at once. And having that many defeats the purpose, because you'll end up doing what a Win7 user would do...search.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
What if you can't remember the name of it? I can have 90 tiles pinned because I don't need to see them all the time, just when I need them. I also have them in groups so that I can find anything quickly.
And this is the more elegant solution? Having to minimize all your open programs too access stuff on your desktop?
So considering all the solutions you've provided you must admit that Windows 8 is the better choice than 7? I mean, since you can do exactly what you're saying in 8 too and you get all the desktop improvements and speed increases.
I can see 13 columns and 7 rows, that's 91 tiles. Organized into groups.
Not to access "stuff", only to access whatever hypothetical program you've come up with that only gets used once a year. And that's not even the only solution. You can just make a folder for stuff you don't use often and put it one layer deep in the start menu.
Show me a screenshot of your efficient 91 tile setup.
Damon Bennet
Member
and search is just as good. (i know about the ridicolous "i dont know if i want to search a file or a setting" argument). so you have a screen with more information, better formfactor for visual memory and simply easier, since not as complex, structure that offers all the functionality.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
I have too much personal info on my start screen showing but here is one I found:
At 1920x1200 he can go into the settings and add another row. Even without that and the including the double spaced tiles he has 59 tiles visible without scrolling. Now if you have more it's a simple flick of the mouse wheel to see the rest of your tiles.
Now show me how efficiently you can access 59 programs in your Start menu without typing the name since that action is exactly the same in 8 as it is in 7.
Delusibeta
Banned
Hence why Windows 8 was a backwards step in getting rid of all that in favour of Metro.
Why do you insist on only comparing the start menu? Only in windows 8 are you limited to using the start screen when in the start menu. I can click on the desktop or the start menu in 7, or I can use the task bar or the quick launch bar.
Angelus Errare
Banned
I don't think I've ever alluded that search in Windows 8 sucks...
The lack of nesting in Windows 8 could be seen as a reduction. If you install a large volume of programs, the average user will be spending much time deleting/removing/figuring out a good way to organize the extras that come with installs on the start menu.
It would be nice if Windows 8 automatically made a new column for each installed program that would replace the lack of nesting. Because having a bunch of icons for
X program.exe
X program instructions.txt
X program.ico
X program.uninstall
X program help.url
haphazardly sprinkled in your metro start menu isn't something I'd consider a "good" thing.
And you don't see that at once, you have to scroll. I can't even see 90 on my screen at once and I'm at 2560x1600 so I know you can't at 1920x1200.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
You can do the same in 8? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm addressing most of the complaints in this thread that are in relation to the removal of the Start menu. You, as per usual, are trying to confuse the issue and move the goal posts.
All the solutions you are giving are slower and more cumbersome than using the Start screen. I do have my 19 most used programs pinned to my taskbar. When I need to launch something else I hit windows or click the lower corner and click the tile. It's fast and easy. It's certainly not broken or unusable as so many people seem to claim it is. It's not perfect either but it'll be improved.
I can see them without scrolling. I don't actually HAVE 91 tiles on my screen but I COULD. Look at that screenshot I posted, he's at 1920x1200, like me, and he can go into settings and add another row if he wants. Now count it. 13 single spaced tiles x 7 rows are visible. That's 91.
EDIT: In case you don't know about that setting:
Delusibeta
Banned
Spot the edit that makes this passage relevant to Windows 7.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
There are tiles in the Start menu? Weird. Not in the Windows 7 I used. Can you show me your Start menu with 50-90 programs visible without a second mouse click?
Disagree. It doesn't tell you, that charms are context-sensitive (i.e. they depend on application you're actually using); it doesn't tell you how to switch between apps or how to close them; it doesn't tell you how to open/close app bars, how to use semantic zoom, how to select things in metro UI, how to view two apps at the same time. And those are just a few things I come up with right now that I remember I had to explain to my mother, when she started using Windows 8.
There's also a lot of hidden functionality. My friend was mad at me that I didn't tell him about the power user menu (right click on start icon) - I forgot to mention it when he was installing the system, and I think he found the menu by accidentally clicking in the area.
One thing I hate about current search is that it doesn't consider something an "app" unless it is installed or at least put inside the "Program Files" folder. I have few portable programs that don't need to be installed, and even though those are executable files, they are listed in the "Files" section. It's annoying.
You're taking a system that tries to substitute for the desktop and the start menu and then comparing it only to the start menu in 7. I don't need 90 tiles in my start menu because I can use my start menu AND my desktop AND my quick launch bar AND my search bar all at the same time.
Show me one screenshot of 91 tiles that can be considered efficient. iOS can show you 234 icons on one screen, but very few would consider that efficient. Even showing just 26 is considered cluttered. The same as someone with 91 icons on their desktop.You can do the same in 8? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I'm addressing most of the complaints in this thread that are in relation to the removal of the Start menu. You, as per usual, are trying to confuse the issue and move the goal posts.
All the solutions you are giving are slower and more cumbersome than using the Start screen. I do have my 19 most used programs pinned to my taskbar. When I need to launch something else I hit windows or click the lower corner and click the tile. It's fast and easy. It's certainly not broken or unusable as so many people seem to claim it is. It's not perfect either but it'll be improved.
I can see them without scrolling. I don't actually HAVE 91 tiles on my screen but I COULD. Look at that screenshot I posted, he's at 1920x1200, like me, and he can go into settings and add another row if he wants. Now count it. 13 single spaced tiles x 7 rows are visible. That's 91.
EDIT: In case you don't know about that setting:
search should have had a 'All' option on top of 'Apps' which was selected by default. I know what you mean, I don't like switching categories to see what I want right now.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Just curious, what happens in metro when you right+click the microsoft word icon? Does it pull up a submenu that gives you quick access to pinned or recently used docs, as well as the ability to create a new doc?
nope, you get this.
yeah, it's bad.
live tiles have the options of smaller/larger and on/off .
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
You're trying to confuse the point, especially by bringing iOS into it, this is a discussion about Windows 7 vs 8. I showed you a well organized Start screen that had 59 tiles, some double spaced and with room for more. All the tiles are easily identifiable and quickly accessed with 2 mouse clicks. None of the 59 tiles requires more than 2 mouse clicks to access. Can you show me the same in the Start menu?
Clearly my example of 91 tiles was about the maximum available, you don't need 91 to make the Start screen more efficient than the Start menu and as such having less than 91 doesn't invalidate my point.
No, if you make a claim that being able to see 90+ tiles without scrolling is a benefit, I expect you to prove it. 59 tiles is 42 tiles less than 91. That screen of 59 is cluttered as it is, you are making a claim that adding 42 MORE icons will make it be just as efficient--I doubt it. Just like a 91 icon desktop is probably not as efficient as a 59 icon desktop or even a 15 icon desktop.
90 tiles to visually scan is more efficient than cascading menus?
No idea what you talking about, I'd actually like to see that (unless you're counting the icons in a folder, in which case lol).
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
Just keep moving those goal posts.
How quickly can you find that CookBook app in that screenshot I posted? I bet you can find it under 3 seconds.
Certainly, especially once you start taking advantage of grouping and zooming.
They are your own goals! You claimed that being able to see 90+ icons is a benefit. You asked me to imagine adding 42 more icons to that screen of 59 icons! I say it will not make it more efficient, and it will be more cluttered.
StudioTan
Hold on, friend! I'd love to share with you some swell news about the Windows 8 Metro UI! Wait, where are you going?
The number of tiles wasn't the main point, I was simply giving the extents of what is possible on my screen. If you really want to get hung up the number and not what I was trying to say then simply revise the number I stated to 50+. Now can we get back on point?
I'd recommend reading the Windows 8 dev blog post on this exact subject, they have very good metrics and real data to show how the new Start screen is faster and more efficient to use with a mouse than the Start menu.
Bornstellar
Member
Not to mention icon recognition is fast in comparison to scanning text.
I bet I can find any app I have installed in under 3 seconds too. 3 seconds is a long time.
Edit: To be clear, I don't think either method is inherently better for all situations or all users. Both can work, and both can be a pain in the arse.
Each app icon is still taking up too much space. It will take me too much mouse travel to launch most of the apps. If the OS let me group them in small folders on the task bar, it will take me much less mouse travel to launch an app.
Also 91 is not enough to cover each app. A nested folder structure will let me do it. I am sure most people have more than 91 apps on their W8 computer.
It's like trying to design a FPS for both controller user and M+K users. Mouse is much more precise, it should be able to have less screen travel and get shit done faster since is more precise.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
It only puts the shortcut to the app on the start screen anyway... None of the other junk.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Your situation is very unique, because most people do not use 50-90 programs on a daily basis, or even weekly, monthly, yearly.
I find it funny that you are arguing about having to do extra clicks to launch 50-90 programs, yet your ilk seem to have no issues with having to right click in order to switch tabs and crap.
It's not primarily a tablet OS. It supports traditional PCs as much as it does tablets. iOS and Android started out as phone OSs. A lot of that fine tuning went towards phones. Especially Android only started to get traction as a tablet OS recently. There aren't many Android apps designed for tablets (but tablets can run phone apps).
The app situation on Windows 8 is starting out very promisingly. It's already at 35,000 apps, all of which are made for 10" and up.
There are lots of good reasons why someone would choose Windows as a tablet OS. The UI is really nice and great for tablets. You can have the same OS (apps, account, settings,...) on both tablets and traditional PCs or you could get a hybrid device instead of both a traditional PC and a tablet. There are some nice benefits from being built on Windows. It supports USB devices like printers, cameras, usb sticks, ... And it allows you to do some more serious computing, too. You can take a Windows 8 tablet, plug in mouse, display, keyboard, and then run the full Office application.
Mouse travel != mouse travel. There's a speed-accuracy tradeoff. Selecting any tile on the start screen is probably easier and faster than navigating the branching start menu, even if the distance is greater. You also learn where all the apps are on the start screen, so you will instinctively know where move the mouse.
In this case 91 is just one screen. You can still scroll, set up groups, and use zoom.
alexandros
Banned
My feelings exactly.
Dreams-Visions
Member
It really is fine once you get used to it.
It has a learning curve yes....but what doesn't? It's the lack of adequate instruction to prepare long-time Windows users for the changes is the biggest problem. As is said, sometimes you don't get another chance to make a first impression. Windows 8 doesn't make a good first impression. But After a little time, you'll be moving around it just like any other iteration of Windows.
On a side note, I like the Metro Netflix app. Thumbs up there.
alexandros
Banned
You should't have to get used to it. Windows 8 is one part desktop OS (one which the whole world is familiar with) and one part tablet/mobile OS which should be simple and easy to use enough to allow trouble-free content consumption. The fact that it needs a period of adjustment is indicicative that it's failing its mission of bridging the desktop with the tablet effectively.
Making Windows ready for touch isn't just for tablets. In the future a lot more devices will support touch. Touch is nice for direct manipulation regardless of the form factor of the device.
If you don't want to get used to change, then don't use a different OS.
alexandros
Banned
Change is supposed to improve things.
Touch is not a good human interface if your monitor is 27" or larger. Large monitors will become more popular soon since 4K is becoming a standard. If MS can not offer a different UI for large monitors, they should take W8 and flash it down the toilet.
You know why W8 is so much cheaper? because deep down MS knew W8 was junk, before the launch.
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