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[BadHand]

Sounds like the woman wanted to abandon the baby, but also ensure it accessed US adoption facilities rather than Taiwanese for the best chance off a good life.

 

[Yaboosh]

People's overly broad interpretations of the 14th Amendment are earily similar to right wing interpretations of the 2nd Amendment. The 14th Amendment exists to give African slaves citizenship following the Civil War, its a product of its era and makes little sense in 2015.

Which Supreme Court decisions do you have in mind when you say interpreations are overly broad?

Brown v Board of Ed? Loving v Virginia? Lawrence v Texas? Obergefell v Hodges? Roe v Wade? Incorporation of most of the Bill of Rights?

This country would truly be a better place if the 14th Amendment was only thought to apply to slavery and not desegregation, interracial marriage, privacy in the bedroom, gay marriage, abortion rights and states being able to go against the Bill of Rights.

Damn you 14th Amendment!

 

[Griss]

Wow. There is a lot of, frankly, disgusting remarks here about citizenship through birth. Lots of really xenophobic, ignorant, and stupid comments.

Almost seems like there are trump supporters here.

I'm a liberal european and I think your birthright law is stupid and exploitable.

We get along fine without it here, you could easily do the same.

I was born in a foreign country and am not a citizen of that country. I have no idea why I should be just because my mum went into labour when she was there.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

Which Supreme Court decisions do you have in mind when you say interpreations are overly broad?

Brown v Board of Ed? Loving v Virginia? Lawrence v Texas? Obergefell v Hodges? Roe v Wade? Incorporation of most of the Bill of Rights?

This country would truly be a better place if the 14th Amendment was only thought to apply to slavery and not desegregation, interracial marriage, privacy in the bedroom, gay marriage, abortion rights and states being able to go against the Bill of Rights.

Damn you 14th Amendment!

I'm not sure what those cases you cited have anything to do with the Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment, which is what is being discussed in this thread.

 

[The Llama]

Wow. There is a lot of, frankly, disgusting remarks here about citizenship through birth. Lots of really xenophobic, ignorant, and stupid comments.

Almost seems like there are trump supporters here.

IMO we need to reexamine the entire concept of citizenship. We live in such a mobile world where it's so easy for people to move around compared to any other time in human history. No clue what the solution is, but I really think that we need to change the entire concept somehow.

 

[ZZMitch]

I'm a liberal european and I think your birthright law is stupid and exploitable.

We get along fine without it here, you could easily do the same.

I was born in a foreign country and am not a citizen of that country. I have no idea why I should be just because my mum went into labour when she was there.

I hope the United States never alters jus soli citizenship. It's such an important part of our country as a nation of immigrants. There is a reason almost every country that respects jus soli citizenship is in the Americas.

 

[Yaboosh]

I'm not sure what those cases you cited have anything to do with the Citizenship Clause of the 14th Amendment, which is what is being discussed in this thread.

You literally said the 14th Amendment exists to give African slaves citizenship, is a product of its era and makes little sense in 2015. It was such a ludicrous post that I had to show how ludicrous it was by showing cases that were highly relevant.

You said nothing about just the Citizenship clause.

And besides, saying the Citizenship clause has no relevance in 2015 is nearly as ludicrous as saying the same to the entirety of the 14th Amendment.

In which cases have the Citizenship Clause been interpreted too broadly? It is pretty specific and clearly intended to give anyone born here citizenship. Just because you don't think it should apply to anyone besides African Slaves doesn't make it as vague and weirdly written as the 2nd Amendment.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I don't know if it's better but I think it's worth talking about without being immediately shot down and called racist.

So what are the benefits?? I've yet to hear them.

 

[trembli0s]

You literally said the 14th Amendment exists to give African slaves citizenship, is a product of its era and makes little sense in 2015. It was such a ludicrous post that I had to show how ludicrous it was by showing cases that were highly relevant.

You said nothing about just the Citizenship clause.

And besides, saying the Citizenship clause has no relevance in 2015 is nearly as ludicrous as saying the same to the entirety of the 14th Amendment.

In which cases have the Citizenship Clause been interpreted too broadly? It is pretty specific and clearly intended to give anyone born here citizenship. Just because you don't think it should apply to anyone besides African Slaves doesn't make it as vague and weirdly written as the 2nd Amendment.

Wait a second, you think the 2nd Amendment is particularly vague as compared to the 14th amendment? An amendment which via substantive due process was essentially used to create rights out of whole cloth, ie, penumbras, etc.

 

[mm04]

There was a house raided in my sister's neighborhood which was basically a haven for pregnant non-citizen Chinese women who were all trying to have their babies in the USA. Trying to game the system. I'm glad that was shutdown. I always thought it was peculiar that a group of pregnant ladies were walking around the neighborhood in the evenings. Different ladies over time. It's a gated community and it was happening for well over a year.

 

[Yaboosh]

Wait a second, you think the 2nd Amendment is particularly vague as compared to the 14th amendment? An amendment which via substantive due process was essentially used to create rights out of whole cloth, ie, penumbras, etc.

There I was referring specifically to the Citizenship Clause.

 

[Korey]

What happens to a foreign parent if their kid is born an American citizen?

Do they get fast-tracked for immigration status or something?

 

[Zornack]

So what are the benefits?? I've yet to hear them.

I'd think that stopping people whose sole purpose in visiting America is to give their baby American citizenship would be a plus.

What are the benefits of keeping it?

 

[Lesath]

I wonder if the parents can revoke the kid's citizenship on his or her behalf.

Anyway, I was born in the U.S. while my parents still had their green card. Sure, they were already on their way to full citizenship, and had done so through legal channels, but the dream they had for a better future for their child isn't so much different to the people use other methods.

 

[Measley]

It's ours now.

I laughed way too hard.

Wow.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I'd think that stopping people whose sole purpose in visiting America is to give their baby American citizenship would be a plus.

What are the benefits of keeping it?

I don't see how that's a negative, you'll have to explain why. Citizenship is not some limited resource. As far as I see it, those babies are going to grow up in and be paid for by another country and come back to the US once they're capable of getting a job and contributing to society.


As for benefits of our current system, you'll have to go back and find out why we dumped the European system in the first place for the system we have today. Namely, to reduce the racism faced by immigrants and blacks. Really, what makes a baby born to Chinese immigrants any less American to one born to white Anglo-saxon Americans if they both grow up in the same country? Lack of birthright citizenship is inherently discriminatory.

 

[MGrant]

Having an American passport in Taiwan is powerful. The most elite schools are American and International schools, which require American or foreign passports to attend, so why not just get an American passport and kill two birds with one stone? And the families who do the birth tourism thing are very wealthy, and it's a status symbol to have kids with American passports, private tutors, Ivy League Educations, etc. regardless of whether or not it benefits the kid. Fucked up priorities, but rich people gonna rich.

 

[trembli0s]

I wonder if the parents can revoke the kid's citizenship on his or her behalf.

Anyway, I was born in the U.S. while my parents still had their green card. Sure, they were already on their way to full citizenship, and had done so through legal channels, but the dream they had for a better future for their child isn't so much different to the people use other methods.

Ends justify the means?

I won't be surprised if this changes in my lifetime with regards to further legislation restricting US citizenship, IE physical presence requirements within X years of life outside of military, work-related, or case by case circumstances.

As far as benefits, USC children born to undocumented immigrants (mostly Mexican/Latin American in my experience) count for equities in determining whether there is "exceptional and extremely unusual hardship" for the purpose of seeking provisional waivers of illegal status in the US.

For a woman who comes to the US with means, and solely for birth tourism, I can't really say what the benefits are. Eventually her kid could petition for her but he has to be at least 21. The kid obviously gets the benefits of being able to use his Citizenship for schooling, etc.

 

[tcrunch]

Should have diverted to Canada just to mess with her.

 

[ThreePiMatt]

You literally said the 14th Amendment exists to give African slaves citizenship, is a product of its era and makes little sense in 2015. It was such a ludicrous post that I had to show how ludicrous it was by showing cases that were highly relevant.

You said nothing about just the Citizenship clause.

And besides, saying the Citizenship clause has no relevance in 2015 is nearly as ludicrous as saying the same to the entirety of the 14th Amendment.

In which cases have the Citizenship Clause been interpreted too broadly? It is pretty specific and clearly intended to give anyone born here citizenship. Just because you don't think it should apply to anyone besides African Slaves doesn't make it as vague and weirdly written as the 2nd Amendment.

Clearly in a thread about birthright citizenship I will be talking about the Citizenship Clause. Just like how in gun control threads when people reference the 2nd Amendmentment they're talking about the "right to bear arms" part and not the "well regulated militia" part. You're just trying to derail.

Also, the idea of widescale illegal immigration and birth tourism did not exist in the 1800s so to argue that they "clearly intended" that anyone and their sister could sneak into the country and give birth and that child would receive the full benefits and advantages of a US citizen is ridiculous. Rather, the country had just been reunited and millions of former slaves, who had been living in this country for decades justifiably deserved citizenship.

You have to remember, many European countries will still offer citizenship to newborns provided the parents are legal, permanent, residents for a certain number of years. It's not like your parents have to be citizens to guarantee citizenship for your offspring. That is a much more reasonable system than what the US has.

 

[Zornack]

I don't see how that's a negative, you'll have to explain why. Citizenship is not some limited resource. As far as I see it, those babies are going to grow up in and be paid for by another country and come back to the US once they're capable of getting a job and contributing to society.


As for benefits of our current system, you'll have to go back and find out why we dumped the European system in the first place for the system we have today. Namely, to reduce the racism faced by immigrants and blacks. Really, what makes a baby born to Chinese immigrants any less American to one born to white Anglo-saxon Americans if they both grow up in the same country? Lack of birthright citizenship is inherently discriminatory.

Why should the children of affluent foreigners get to leapfrog the immigration processes because their parents could afford to deliver their child in America? It's a loophole that is being taken advantage of.

I don't believe that where your mother happens deliver you should dictate your citizenship.

Does the Citizenship clause as it stands today reduce racism faced by minorities? I understand why it was put in place but I do not think it fits in today's world.

 

[Klotera]

I am okay with birthright citizenship except in the specific case of birth tourism. As has been pointed out, most of these aren't people from a bad situation trying to avoid the same for their child. It's usually people that are well off looking for even more privileges for their child and family.

Maybe there is a way to revise birthright citizenship without going too far. Simply say born in the U.S. to at least one citizen or permanent resident (green card) or someone who has been here at least 2 years (regardless of if it was legally or illegally). You could maybe drop that to 18 months. Just long enough to get around birth tourism.

 

[Darkangel]

The 14th Amendment (in the 21st century) is basically the immigration equivalent of a tax loophole.

The only thing it does is encourage birth tourism and "anchor babies." If you're going to have a law like that then you might as well just get rid of any immigration requirements.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Why should the children of affluent foreigners get to leapfrog the immigration processes because their parents could afford to deliver their child in America? It's a loophole that is being taken advantage of.

I don't believe that where your mother happens deliver you should dictate your citizenship.

Does the Citizenship clause as it stands today reduce racism faced by minorities? I understand why it was put in place but I do not think it fits in today's world.

You know that affluent immigrants already have a way better chance of getting in right? At least for Canada, you need to have a lot of money set aside, you need a university degree, you need to have skills that are high in demand. The immigrants who're selected are already crème of the crop of their home countries. It's not a class issue.

I don't like your rewording. What I believe is if you're born in a country, you're entitled to citizenship of that country. No where does your mother come into the equation other than the giving birth part.

Hell yes citizenship reduces racism. You don't think people being able to take part in the democratic process creates a more inclusive society? Birthright citizenship is a no brainer for combating racism.

 

[boiled goose]

I'm a liberal european and I think your birthright law is stupid and exploitable.

We get along fine without it here, you could easily do the same.

I was born in a foreign country and am not a citizen of that country. I have no idea why I should be just because my mum went into labour when she was there.

We are not Europe and proud of it.

In most other countries nationality and race and ethnicity are linked. Not the case here.
America is a country of immigrants and that is a good thing.

The 14th Amendment (in the 21st century) is basically the immigration equivalent of a tax loophole.

The only thing it does is encourage birth tourism and "anchor babies." If you're going to have a law like that then you might as well just get rid of any immigration requirements.

False dichotomy.
I would relax immigration, but still regulate it. Provide more legal pathways to immigration to avoid all this craziness.

 

[Stinkles]

We are not Europe and proud of it.

In most other countries nationality and race and ethnicity are linked. Not the case here.
America is a country of immigrants and that is a good thing.

Well it kinda depends on the original circumstances of your "immigration " and the shade of your skin. Let's not pretend we're all living the dream of equal opportunity. Because it's far from true.

We absolutely think of race all the goddamn time. And it is tied in word and deed to how "American " a chunk of Americans think you are.

 

[m3k]

This sort of thing is ridiculous... Holiday births should be excluded

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Yea this is one area I'm a bit conservative in. We need to do something about stuff like this. I think for a child to be considered an American citizen their parent should also be one. If the parent isn't then the child should not be given citizenship just because they were born on american soil or in flight to american soil. At the same time there would need to be something to balance this out. Say a parent comes here and isn't a citizen at birth but they say 6 months to a year later they become a citizen then at that time their child should then get citizenship since their parent went through the proper steps to become a citizen.

This is all a symptom of a bigger problem though. Our immigration system is screwed up. It should not take people years of fighting and waiting to become a citizen. There are people who take the time to do the right thing and go through the system to become a legal citizen yet there are others who come here and pull shit like this women or just come illegally and get help and resources. Meanwhile those doing it legally are stuck on the outside looking in. It should not take longer then say 18 months tops. You file for citizenship, there is a thorough background check done, you take the test and if you pass then bam you're given your new social security number and all the rights of any american citizen.

 

[Raguel]

I'm a liberal european and I think your birthright law is stupid and exploitable.

We get along fine without it here, you could easily do the same.

I was born in a foreign country and am not a citizen of that country. I have no idea why I should be just because my mum went into labour when she was there.

You seriously trying to compare america to Europe? Just gonna act as if European ways will work the same if applied to the U.S.? And please, don't act as if Europe have a perfect system for immigration when its fucking facing a crisis right now.

 

[freeofgreed]

I've read through this entire thread and I've seen a lot of "Birthright citizenship is bad and should be stopped" but have yet to see anyone actually give a reason as to why it's bad other than "spies!!!!".

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Well it kinda depends on the original circumstances of your "immigration " and the shade of your skin. Let's not pretend we're all living the dream of equal opportunity. Because it's far from true.

We absolutely think of race all the goddamn time. And it is tied in word and deed to how "American " a chunk of Americans think you are.

But nationality is not a part of our race discussions, and that's a good thing. You see all those far right Europeans talking about deporting immigrants who have been living there for generations? Can never happen here. Once you're in America, you can't be forced out or be told to "go back where you came from", and that's fucking amazing.

 

[suzu]

That espionage/spy thing is maybe the funniest thing I've read today.

 

[boiled goose]

Well it kinda depends on the original circumstances of your "immigration " and the shade of your skin. Let's not pretend we're all living the dream of equal opportunity. Because it's far from true.

We absolutely think of race all the goddamn time. And it is tied in word and deed to how "American " a chunk of Americans think you are.

Sure. It's an ideal we have to continually strive towards and keep fighting for, as this thread shows.

 

[AliasGreed]

I live in Miami and there's a huge community of people that come from Jamaica and the Dominican Republic to have their baby here to give them USA citizenship. Somehow they do it legally and then return to their native country to raise the child.

 

[numble]

The 14th Amendment (in the 21st century) is basically the immigration equivalent of a tax loophole.

The only thing it does is encourage birth tourism and "anchor babies." If you're going to have a law like that then you might as well just get rid of any immigration requirements.

The 14th Amendment is how we got to marriage equality, it is stupid to claim that all it does is encourage birth tourism.

 

[MogCakes]

ITT xenophobic and ignorant people vouch to repeal one of the USA's most fundamental and liberal rights to stop the massive terror that is rich selfish birth tourists likely part of the 1% of the world who can actually afford to try that stunt. Newsflash, if not for the citizenship clause I and many, many of this nation's people would be illegal.

 

[Atraveller]

Taiwan is not some third world country or war zone. There are plenty of economic opportunity there. Please don't compare it to those seeking to get out of legitimately shitty situations in other countries.

There are many many places on earth that are worse, but it's not a great place to live at all. One of the highest work hours in the world that comes with low wage, I want to get out myself.

 

[Renekton]

There are many many places on earth that are worse, but it's not a great place to live at all. One of the highest work hours in the world that comes with low wage, I want to get out myself.

US work hours and holidays taken also rank among the worst in the world. Easier to fire employees too.

 

[Atraveller]

US work hours and holidays taken also rank among the worst in the world. Easier to fire employees too.

Yes, but pretty much everything that is not food, local made home appliances and other basic living supplies are cheaper in the US, sometimes way cheaper because import tax. I imagine it'd be way easier to save money with your higher income than here, where we also have ridiculous house price disproportionate to our low income.

 

[aspiegamer]

Jeb! was right last month. The real threat is Asian anchor babies! What a visionary. I expect calls for a dome or some kind of electronic warfare system that can detect pregnant people flying over the Pacific, take control of the planes and force them to land in other countries.

Why would someone from an advanced Asian country consider fishing for US citizenship these days, anyway? Aim for Canada or fly to a nice Scandinavian country and see if you can luck out there! I know it's not automatic like in the US, but it's worth a shot!

 

[Atraveller]

It's also nice to have a backup plan if PRC really does go nuts and attack us.