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[Prodigal Son]

our friend and ally folks

 

[Not]

Dudes + Religion was a mistake

 

[zoleristec]

Not surprised, that whole region is a regressive shithole.

 

[Machina]

If Saudi Arabia didn't have so much oil under their feet, they wouldn't mean shit to anyone and this woman would very likely be staring death in the face. Stop apologising for Wahhabism.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Because that's how it works in that region? Can we, as outsiders, at least respect their laws?

That's what I mean by bringing up that proverb. We should look up on information regarding the region before visiting any unknown place.



Kissing and maybe having sex in public might be the norm for you, but in other parts of the world, it's an embarrassment to humanity.

You can't have a universal 'custom', it varies depending on where you live.

So I ask again: if rape was deemed legal in a country, you would "respect" this? Why does any given law deserve respect?

As for the other part, it's common sense, not some evil Western ideal. What is wrong with women wearing a miniskirt or showing skin? I don't ask why they think it's wrong, I ask why you do. And if you don't, why do you respect this law?

Think for yourself, question authority

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

I don't respect their law because it's regressive.

A woman has been arrested over this, she'll likely face torture and possibly death. Why should this be respected?

Fuck Saudi Arabia.

 

[Alo0oy]

Not surprised, that whole region is a regressive shithole.

Here we go again.

From the Saudi defense force to ignorant posts like this. This thread has everything.

 

[y2dvd]

I'm basically seeing a "condemn all actions or none at all" argument being made here. Hmmm

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

What's with all this misdirecting crap?
I'm sorry, but sometimes a culture, or parts of it is objectively and undeniably shit, simple as that, enough with the cultural relativism, it's nothing but virtue signaling hogwash.
Should we ignore Chechnya's persecution of gays because it's their culture?
Is FGM okay now because it's part of their culture?
On and on, a million examples.
There ARE universal customs.

What is the issue of not kissing in public though ? It's just different sensibilities. The main issue here is that you can be arrested over those things. But if people just feel that it's not appropriate there is nothing wrong or backward about it. It's like in France we kiss each other as a greeting gesture. If you do that in most part of US it would be inappropriate. For instance, a culture where women wear mini-skirt is not superior than a culture where women don't show skin. A woman freedom is not measured by the skin she shows, but (among others things) her right to show or not show. As westerner, we often assume that if women don't show much of her body, she is oppressed/manipulated/submissive whatever. I think it doesn't make sense. The important question is what she can actually do. Let's take Bosnia for instance. A woman can perfectly go with hijab or go in mini-skirt. I don't think we can say that the woman in mini-skirt is more liberated than the woman in hijab. They both have choice.

Also, i get that cultural relativism have limits but just putting everything on the same level is totally wrong. You cannot equate FGM, killing people because of their sexuals orientations and thing like kissing in public or what is deemed acceptable dress code or not. I didn't see anybody on this topic saying that it's ok that she was arrested because it's in KSA culture.

So there are thing that are universals, like protection of life and dignity but there are some things that are purely arbitrary and don't hold any kind of moral high ground, they are just customs.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

What is the issue of not kissing in public though ? It's just different sensibilities. The main issue here is that you can be arrested over those things. But if people just feel that it's not appropriate there is nothing wrong or backward about it. It's like in France we kiss each other as a greeting gesture. If you do that in most part of US it would be inappropriate. For instance, a culture where women wear mini-skirt is not superior than a culture where women don't show skin. A woman freedom is not measured by the skin she show, but (among others things) her right to show or not show.

Also, i get that cultural relativism have limits but just putting everything on the same level is totally wrong. You cannot equate FGM, killing people because of their sexuals orientations and thing like kissing in public or what is deemed acceptable dress code or not. I didn't see anybody on this topic saying that it's ok that she was arrested because it's in KSA culture.

So there are thing that are universals, like protection of life and dignity but there are some things that are purely arbitrary and don't hold any kind of moral high ground, they are just customs.

There is something very backwards and deplorable about arresting someone for wearing a miniskirt

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

There is something very backwards and deplorable about arresting someone for wearing a miniskirt

Are you a troll or something ? Where did i said otherwise ?

 

[Kin5290]

Because that's how it works in that region? Can we, as outsiders, at least respect their laws?

That's what I mean by bringing up that proverb. We should look up on information regarding the region before visiting any unknown place.

So what, women can't legally drive in that country, but that's how it works, so nobody bother protesting or criticizing injustice? That's how it works now?

 

[Fast Forward]

Look, I'm liberal as they come in America, and gotta say BS like this is backwards AF.

 

[StayDead]

Look, I'm liberal as they come in America, and gotta say BS like this is backwards AF.

Wouldn't this sentance make more sense if you said you were conservative AF? If any liberal sees this and thinks it's a good thing, then honestly I don't think they're very liberal.

 

[TAJ]

So what, women can't legally drive in that country, but that's how it works, so nobody bother protesting or criticizing injustice? That's how it works now?

Public demonstrations are illegal there.

 

[gutter_trash]

Look, I'm liberal as they come in America, and gotta say BS like this is backwards AF.

I'm scratching my head hard at this post.

Classical Liberals (Europe) are for secularism and the Seperationf of Church n State.

US Liberals however give religious minorities a free pass on their Extreme Conservativesm which is a contradiction in itself

a Liberal should never defend an Ultra Conservative religion, ever

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I'm scratching my head hard at this post.

Classical Liberals (Europe) are for secularism and the Seperationf of Church n State.

US Liberals however give religious minorities a free pass on their Extreme Conservativesm which is a contradiction in itself

a Liberal should never defend an Ultra Conservative religion, ever

I never heard a US liberal giving a free pass about SA or Iranian extreme conservatism anyway. I mean this forum is a good example of this. Most people are liberals from the US and they are (in general, rightly) outraged when something conservative happen in the name of what you call "religious minorities".

Maybe you're saying that liberals are ok with full-veil or thing like that ? I think that the people who tolerate those things (in Europe as in the US) does it because of the principle of freedom, even if they think it's actually a backward and conservative practice. It have nothing to do with the separation of Church and State. I don't think that anybody would say that it's ok to impose a full-veil on a woman if you're a religious minority, so no "free pass on extreme conservatism". The issue is more about prejudices. Many people think that muslim women are systematically abused and oppressed by muslim men, and that it's the duty of the State to liberate them from their family/husband. If they don't want to be liberated, they are "oppressed/manipulated". I don't think it's a liberal perspective, since according to this, the muslim woman have zero agency until a white savior come to the rescue.

 

[Not]

Public demonstrations are illegal there.

So, what? We have to wait until they run out of oil until we can pressure the government to stop being total pricks?

 

[TheDanger]

sometimes I hate my life, but I am beyond grateful that I wasn't born in some backward ass country with medieval practices.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

So, what? We have to wait until they run out of oil until we can pressure the government to stop being total pricks?

What about stopping being an ally* to any dictatorship regime ? This is just the tip of the iceberg. Human life have no value in KSA, as in any dictatorship. But since it defend a pro-western agenda in the region, nobody cares.

*like no US military bases for instance.

 

[texhnolyze]

What's with all this misdirecting crap?
I'm sorry, but sometimes a culture, or parts of it is objectively and undeniably shit, simple as that, enough with the cultural relativism, it's nothing but virtue signaling hogwash.
Should we ignore Chechnya's persecution of gays because it's their culture?
Is FGM okay now because it's part of their culture?
On and on, a million examples.
There ARE universal customs.

So I ask again: if rape was deemed legal in a country, you would "respect" this? Why does any given law deserve respect?

As for the other part, it's common sense, not some evil Western ideal. What is wrong with women wearing a miniskirt or showing skin? I don't ask why they think it's wrong, I ask why you do. And if you don't, why do you respect this law?

Think for yourself, question authority

Look, I feel sorry for the woman, but those are clearly not on the same level as this.

Here's another example. In certain country (and probably in lots modern Western companies), women are not allowed to wear a hijab in public or their working environment. What's the deal with that? Why is such law/custom even exist? It's Muslim women's rights (actually their obligation as a Muslim) to wear such piece of clothing.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Look, I feel sorry for the woman, but those are clearly not on the same level as this.

Here's another example. In certain country (and probably in lots modern Western companies), women are not allowed to wear a hijab in public or their working environment. What's the deal with that? Why is such law/custom even exist? It's Muslim women's rights (actually their obligation as a Muslim) to wear such piece of clothing.

The deal with that is separation of church and state and having your company have a neutral image. Look up the rulings for it. Plus that is about all religious symbols. Also, no, it is not in lots of western companies. And the government is not going to start a search for you and arrest you for wearing a hijab. No western country bans the hijab in public also.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

The deal with that is separation of church and state and having your company have a neutral image. Look up the rulings for it. Plus that is about all religious symbols. Also, no, it is not in lots of western companies. And the government is not going to start a search for you and arrest you for wearing a hijab. No western country bans the hijab in public also.

What is the relation between separation of church and state and a private company ? It's clear-cut religious discrimination, and in France 99.99 % of companies won't hire a woman with hijab. People would even campaign against a company if they hire a women with hijab. This is clearly oppression against muslims women. You cannot ask Saudi Arabia to respect western fashion style and don't care if muslim women are not able to work in many western countries.

And the hijab is not a religious symbol, it's not a cross or a crescent. It's a dress code. You don't wear hijab like if it's some kind of "i'm muslim" tshirt. You respect a code because you think it's part of your religious duty, not to make a statement. If you go some rural part of Spain or Italy some decades ago, you would be thinking to see a lot of muslim women there. It became a symbol of Islam because others cultures have changed. There is some countries even today where you cannot distinguish a muslim woman respecting hijab from a non-muslim woman.

Ex:

 

[Future]

This is bullshit plain and simple. No one should be accepting it. No one should be respecting it. Its backwards ass thinking that most of the world should have moved on from

 

[Christhor]

My Scandinavian genes are telling me to respect Saudi Arabia's culture and be fine with this

 

[ClosingADoor]

What is the relation between separation of church and state and a private company ? It's clear-cut religious discrimination, and in France 99.99 % of companies won't hire a woman with hijab. People would even campaign against a company if they hire a women with hijab. This is clearly oppression against muslims women. You cannot ask Saudi Arabia to respect western fashion style and don't care if muslim women are not able to work in many western countries.

And the hijab is not a religious symbol, it's not a cross or a crescent. It's a dress code. If you go some rural part of Spain or Italy some decades ago, you would be thinking to see a lot of muslim women there. It became a symbol of Islam because others cultures have changed. There is some countries even today where you cannot distinguish a muslim woman respecting hijab from a non-muslim woman.

And there we have it. Because you disagree with something in France you are OK with oppression in Saudi Arabia. Then make a problem about the situation in France, don't make excuses for Saudi Arabia.

The hijab rules in government positions are about separation between church and state. In private companies about a neutral image. In both cases you will not be arrested for wearing it. And you will not be arrested for wearing it in public anywhere, like Saudi Arabia does do with women like this thread is about.

The situations are different, stop comparing them.

 

[KSai]

Ex:

Are there nuns in America?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Are there nuns in America?

Is this a true question ?

And there we have it. Because you disagree with something in France you are OK with oppression in Saudi Arabia. Then make a problem about the situation in France, don't make excuses for Saudi Arabia.

The hijab rules in government positions are about separation between church and state. In private companies about a neutral image. In both cases you will not be arrested for wearing it. And you will not be arrested for wearing it in public anywhere, like Saudi Arabia does do with women like this thread is about.

The situations are different, stop comparing them.

You can work in a private company with a christian cross (which is a religious symbol) but not with an hijab (which is not a religious symbol) because of neutrality.

Also, are students holding a government positions ? Why they are not able to wear hijab if it's about separation of church and state. It's BS and you know it. Those are laws made in the 2000's when the muslim youth in the 90s started to become too visible in the french public space. Those are laws especially made against muslims.

At least Saudi Arabia have the excuse to be a dictatorship under the iron fist of a fanatical cult. France have none to discriminate it's citizens. And i'm not OK with oppression in KSA, unlike you being ok with oppression against muslim women in France apparently. So yeah, you won't be arrested because you're wearing an hijab, you will be kicked out of high school and won't never been able to find a job. Lot better.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Is this a true question ?



You can work in a private company with a christian cross (which is a religious symbol) but not with an hijab (which is not a religious symbol) because of neutrality.

Also, are students holding a government positions ? Why they are not able to wear hijab if it's about separation of church and state. It's BS and you know it. Those are laws made in the 2000's when the muslim youth in the 90s started to become too visible in the french public space. Those are laws especially made against muslims.

At least Saudi Arabia have the excuse to be a dictatorship under the iron fist of a fanatical cult. France have none to discriminate it's citizens. And i'm not OK with oppression in KSA, unlike you being ok with oppression against muslim women in France apparently.

Then make a thread about France. Don't continue to make flawed comparisons that only serve to distract from the issue and try to gain sympathy for Saudi Arabia's terrible laws.

Why do you feel the need to point out your disagreement with a totally unrelated French law when talking about Saudi Arabia.

 

[Christhor]

Is this a true question ?



You can work in a private company with a christian cross (which is a religious symbol) but not with an hijab (which is not a religious symbol) because of neutrality.

Also, are students holding a government positions ? Why they are not able to wear hijab if it's about separation of church and state. It's BS and you know it. Those are laws made in the 2000's when the muslim youth in the 90s started to become too visible in the french public space. Those are laws especially made against muslims.

At least Saudi Arabia have the excuse to be a dictatorship under the iron fist of a fanatical cult. France have none to discriminate it's citizens. And i'm not OK with oppression in KSA, unlike you being ok with oppression against muslim women in France apparently. So yeah, you won't be arrested because you're wearing an hijab, you will be kicked out of high school and won't never been able to find a job. Lot better.

It's good that Saudia Arabia has an excuse for their problems, that means we can ignore those and focus on the inexcusable problems in France.

 

[paperboywriter]

Shameful and embarrassing

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Are there nuns in America?

Then make a thread about France. Don't continue to make flawed comparisons that only serve to distract from the issue and try to gain sympathy for Saudi Arabia's terrible laws.

Why do you feel the need to point out your disagreement with a totally unrelated French law when talking about Saudi Arabia.

To point out the hypocrisy of those who support those laws while claiming to be outraged about the situation in KSA. You cannot support saudi women who adopt western dressing norms without supporting western women adopting islamic dressing norms: this is not women empowerment, just a willingness to spread a cultural model.

Also, i just called KSA ruling class a dictatorship under a fanatical cult, this is really a good thing to say for improving KSA image ? If you follow what i usually says about KSA, you'll know that i'm nothing but against the KSA regime. So cut the crap.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

It's good that Saudia Arabia has an excuse for their problems, that means we can ignore those and focus on the inexcusable problems in France.

What about being coherent by addressing both ?

 

[ClosingADoor]

To point out the hypocrisy of those who support those laws while claiming to be outraged about the situation in KSA. You cannot support saudi women who adopt western dressing norms without supporting western women adopting islamic dressing norms: this is not women empowerment, just a willingness to spread a cultural model.

Also, i just called KSA ruling class a dictatorship under a fanatical cult, this is really a good thing to say for improving KSA image ? If you follow what i usually says about KSA, you'll know that i'm nothing but against the KSA regime. So cut the crap.

There is no hypocrisy here because the issues are not the same. And yes, you are making excuses. In this very same post you say we can not support Saudi women for dressing like this, if we do not also condemn a different law in France that does not apply to situations like this. That is making excuses for them.

 

[Lionel Mandrake]

Golden_Pigeon started posting in this thread at post 321. Meaning he's participated in this thread for the last 314 posts. Of those 314 posts, Golden_Pigeon is the poster of 69. This means that roughly 1 out of 5 of those 314 posts belong to Golden_Pigeon. Many other users have told Golden_Pigeon that a lot of his posts are off-topic and should be in their own thread instead of hijacking this one about a particular news story out of Saudi Arabia. Golden_Pigeon has not slowed down at all.

As a result, the original thing this thread was created to discuss has become completely lost in a slew of "what about this other thing?" That is called "derailing" and/or "disruptive posting". Please do not do that. This has been a friendly reminder from your friend, Lionel Mandrake.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Are you a troll or something ? Where did i said otherwise ?

That's not how you operate tbf. Generally what you'll do is skirt around the obvious fact that it's oppressive and horrible while pointing out that the real problem is that people just don't truly understand that this kind of thing doesn't happen.

 

[cameron]

Golden_Pigeon started posting in this thread at post 321. Meaning he's participated in this thread for the last 314 posts. Of those 314 posts, Golden_Pigeon is the poster of 69. This means that roughly 1 out of 5 of those 314 posts belong to Golden_Pigeon. Many other users have told Golden_Pigeon that a lot of his posts are off-topic and should be in their own thread instead of hijacking this one about a particular news story out of Saudi Arabia. Golden_Pigeon has not slowed down at all.

As a result, the original thing this thread was created to discuss has become completely lost in a slew of "what about this other thing?" That is called "derailing" and/or "disruptive posting". Please do not do that. This has been a friendly reminder from your friend, Lionel Mandrake.

Thank you, so much.

 

[Keasar]

It's also legal for women to be topless in NYC.

I was just wondering that, when I was visiting New York 2 years ago I was down at Times Square where I saw a bunch of women who were topless with the American flag painted on their breasts and people were cheering. Even saw a couple of cops just further down the street who watched and didn't do anything.

Glad to hear that New York remains best city in the USA.

 

[JoeNut]

well i can understand the ridicule from GAF but actually if you go to someone elses country you should respect their laws and practices.

For example when i go to america i clap after seeing a movie and tip the guy who rips the ticket on the way in

 

[Jill Sandwich]

I'm basically seeing a "condemn all actions or none at all" argument being made here. Hmmm

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

 

[YesNOnoNOYes]

Air Mandrake Best Airline

ty

 

[Raigan5088]

well i can understand the ridicule from GAF but actually if you go to someone elses country you should respect their laws and practices.

For example when i go to america i clap after seeing a movie and tip the guy who rips the ticket on the way in

I dont think anyone should respect horrific human rights abuses, the stoning to death of adulterers, the throwing of homo-sexuals off high rise roofs, ill never respect that.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Fuck Saudi Arabia and this inequality anti-human rights bullshit.

 

[RedSparrows]

What's with all this misdirecting crap?
I'm sorry, but sometimes a culture, or parts of it is objectively and undeniably shit, simple as that, enough with the cultural relativism, it's nothing but virtue signaling hogwash.
Should we ignore Chechnya's persecution of gays because it's their culture?
Is FGM okay now because it's part of their culture?
On and on, a million examples.
There ARE universal customs.

Whilst I agree with you, broadly, you saying this does not make it so, in the sense of actual lived experience. I believe certain rights should apply universally, but in practice they do not. Where those rights interact with customs (not the same thing), and how the universal theory works with actual lived experience... those are the tensions we have to deal with. Sorry for butting in with a nit-picky aside like this, it's a habit of mine.

 

[Baki]

She's a local....Now I'm really worried for her. They'll treat this as political dissident.

 

[womfalcs3]

She's a local....Now I'm really worried for her. They'll treat this as political dissident.

I read that she has participated in a local protest to let women drive. I definitely see them treating her as a political dissident. She's probably looking at years in jail (officially), and torture (unofficially).

 

[Audioboxer]

Unsure if the Washington Post had this originally (probably did) as article has been revised a few times

One poll conducted in 2014 found that 63 percent believed that women should wear a niqab that covers all of their face except their eyes, and just 3 percent thought women not covering their hair were dressed appropriately.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...opriate-attire-for-women-in-muslim-countries/

It's 2014, but it goes to further show how SA stands out, and sadly how "ordinary" autonomy by many's standards (6) has little support. Lebanon doing okay. If you truly want to argue it's a choice then what is deemed appropriate should really heavily fall on 6 and THEN you can make the argument woman aren't covering up because they feel pressured by society/Governments as it's unacceptable if they don't conform. This is why debates around it are so contested as it's deeply ingrained in the women that it's almost a crime, or even is a crime if they show any skin/hair.

Public support for this woman is either going to be anonymous or in very low amounts (within SA). The only hope she has is all the international eyes watching, but the SA Government will just wait around a bit for our 24-hour news cycles to consume us. Silence from the UN or any countries Governments/Prime Ministers/Presidents will be deafening. Yeah, it's just one case in a sea of many, but it's gone viral. Going viral isn't always "fair" as 99% of others can pass by unsupported or uncared for and then one person comes along and gets worldwide attention. It is what it is though and it's opportunities like this where pressure against and support for the individual should be witnessed globally.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Kind of eye opening that in Turkey, my friend wore pretty much the same outfit today and was allowed to wander unmolested through the ancient ruins of Ephesus and St Mary's chapel. Night and day Muslim nations.

 

[sturgboski]

I was just wondering that, when I was visiting New York 2 years ago I was down at Times Square where I saw a bunch of women who were topless with the American flag painted on their breasts and people were cheering. Even saw a couple of cops just further down the street who watched and didn't do anything.

Glad to hear that New York remains best city in the USA.

As long as you avoid our mass transit. Sorry for the derail, the MTA can't help it.

On topic: I keep coming to this thread but I might have missed it with the other discussion - any news on the Young lady post arrest? Any Western organizations trying to intervene in her behalf?

 

[Theonik]

Not for long with Turkey's present trajectory. Most people consider that kind of dress inappropriate there too.
Of course there is a big gap from that, banning it, and imprisoning tourists.