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[Audioboxer]

Kind of eye opening that in Turkey, my friend wore pretty much the same outfit today and was allowed to wander unmolested through the ancient ruins of Ephesus and St Mary's chapel. Night and day Muslim nations.

Turkey polls decently on that pew poll, but the issue with Tukey is the path of regression it seems to be sticking to.

Tourism has been a huge boon for Turkey going back many years (I as a child even spent a few years heading over there), so there are generations of "climatisation" to women having full autonomy and "hair and skin" being treated fairly and normally.

I'm not sure how tourism has been going in Turkey in more recent times, but under the current Government, it's probably heading south.

A quick Google search

Turkey's previously booming tourism sector was gravely hit in the wake of a series of terrorist attacks and domestic political turmoil. The dwindling number of visitors has hurt connecting sectors, chopping off about one percentage point of GDP from the country's growth in 2016, according to a recent IMF study.

Just before 2016, Turkey grew into one of the most popular tourist destinations in the world. The growing network of the national air carrier, infrastructure development, hotel construction, and country marketing fueled the expansion. To ease entry, only 3 percent of foreign tourists needed visas, diverting visitors from competitors in the Mediterranean, such as Egypt.

The thriving tourism brought in revenues equivalent to 3.7 percent of GDP and generated 600,000 jobs, or 2.3 percent of total employment. Another million jobs sprung up in related sectors, including restaurant and leisure industries.

The turn came in 2016, with a sharp rise in terrorist attacks coupled with political uncertainty. Terrorist attacks—400 in just 2015 from an average of 70 annually between 2010 and 2014—resulted in a more than 30 percent fall in the number of European tourists who used to make up over half of the visitors. The inflow of another important cohort, Russian tourists fell dramatically due to sanctions, including restrictions on charter flights and sales of travel packages.

More @ https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2017/02/21/NA230217Turkeys-Economy-Hit-By-Declining-Tourism

There's nothing wrong with being an Islam majority country like Turkey*, the issues crop up when you veer towards the most conservative and/or Government influencing forms (state mandated Sharia Law of some sorts). It would be like the bible belt in America taking over, enforcing laws and morality policing and secularisation being completely thrown out. Yes, even America still has its problems (as much of Europe does), but there is often a decent level of protection between being a Christian nation and being a fundamentalist Christian nation that controls Government/laws.

*Religions: Muslim 99.8% (mostly Sunni), other 0.2% (mostly Christians and Jews)

http://www.indexmundi.com/turkey/demographics_profile.html

 

[Alo0oy]

Keep in mind that a sizeable portion of the SA population is Wahhabbi, so the religious establishment there has very strong vocal support. And they openly on twitter celebrate whenever a "heathen" is executed (Shia Muslims, Muslim women that defy the system, and liberal Muslims).

 

[TheJollyCorner]

well i can understand the ridicule from GAF but actually if you go to someone elses country you should respect their laws and practices.

For example when i go to america i clap after seeing a movie and tip the guy who rips the ticket on the way in

Thank you for respecting our ancient customs! 👏🏼

 

[Audioboxer]

Keep in mind that a sizeable portion of the SA population is Wahhabbi, so the religious establishment there has very strong vocal support. And they openly on twitter celebrate whenever a "heathen" is executed (Shia Muslims, Muslim women that defy the system, and liberal Muslims).

Yeah, which is why if you google images of countries like Iran/SA and even Egypt in the 60s/70s you can find women looking "normal". I think Iran has some of the most viral 1970's vs 20xx's photos. Afghanistan has a fair few too. The point is it wasn't as if these women weren't Muslims back then, they were, or lots/most of them were, they just weren't reigned over by oppressive systems. Not in the way they are now anyway. Wahhabism and anything like it have done incredible amounts of damage to this world and humanity in general.

It doesn't take too long for aggressive and/or violent conservative movements to spread and enforce. Which is why you see a lot of pushback around the world to what I'd call "creeping acceptance/tolerating" of intolerance. Sysmic shifts in populations/societies often start out as minority movements and if left unchallenged/unopposed can spread to become majorities. Especially if they're using violence/threats/fear. Then the issues are what the hell can you do when you're trying to undo years of oppression/violence/indoctrination and threats? If it's at a Governmental level, right up all the chains of command and public forces (police/army/etc), then good fucking luck trying to topple all of that. As we routinely see dissent/protest is often met with jail sentences or worse.

With SA specifically, our Governments/UN and more could exert pressure by cutting ties, trade sanctions and continual public condemning of behaviours/actions (like here, arresting this woman, but where are the politicians commenting?). Hence the disgusting realities of the oil industry and making money through selling arms we know go straight to killing innocent people. The UN electing SA into the women's rights commission is so comical any joke around that eats itself.

 

[Alo0oy]

Yeah, which is why if you google images of countries like Iran/SA and even Egypt in the 60s/70s you can find women looking "normal". I think Iran has some of the most viral 1970's vs 20xx's photos. Afghanistan has a fair few too.

Egypt is still "normal".

It doesn't take too long for aggressive and/or violent conservative movements to spread and enforce. Which is why you see a lot of pushback around the world to what I'd call "creeping acceptance/tolerating" of intolerance. Sysmic shifts in populations/societies often start out as minority movements and if left unchallenged/opposed can spread to become majorities. Especially if they're using violence/threats/fear. Then the issues are what the hell can you do when you're trying to undo years of oppression/violence/indoctrination and threats? If it's at a Governmental level, right up all the chains of command and public forces (police/army/etc), then good fucking luck trying to topple all of that. As we routinely see dissent/protest is often met with jail sentences or worse.

The crushing of liberal dissent in Saudi/Iran is the biggest contributor, those governments do no allow liberal ideas to flourish. The rest of Arab countries are different, where liberal ideas are part of the discourse, only anti-government dissent is punished.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Look, I feel sorry for the woman, but those are clearly not on the same level as this.

Yeah, they kind of are. Being denied the freedom to dress normally and comfortably every day of your life (especially in scorching heat) just because you're a woman is oppressive misogyny and not very different than being treated like garbage after being rape. Either way your basic human rights are being violated, but in the former, it applies to every woman in the country no matter what and every single day.

Stop fucking defending this shit.

Here's another example. In certain country (and probably in lots modern Western companies), women are not allowed to wear a hijab in public or their working environment. What's the deal with that? Why is such law/custom even exist? It's Muslim women's rights (actually their obligation as a Muslim) to wear such piece of clothing.

It is really telling that you deflect by using this example as if to suggest they are equivalent, or the levels of freedom are the same in France as in Saudi Arabia. Anyone who criticizes the French bans and defends Saudi Arabia here has really fucked up priorities.

(And it's also telling that you admit it's an "obligation" and that they, actually, are not simply free to wear this garment or not, like many have argued. Hmmmmm)

Unsure if the Washington Post had this originally (probably did) as article has been revised a few times

It's 2014, but it goes to further show how SA stands out, and sadly how "ordinary" autonomy by many's standards (6) has little support. Lebanon doing okay.

Disagree with the bolded. Half of Lebanon thinks an uncovered woman's face is "inappropriate". It's a little better than the other countries, but it's still really fucked up.

Egypt is still "normal".

Only 4% of Egyptians think an uncovered woman is appropriate. And Egypt only banned FGM 10 years ago and it's only banned in the books and still prevalent. I wouldn't call any of that "normal"...

 

[Audioboxer]

Egypt is still "normal".



The crushing of liberal dissent in Saudi/Iran is the biggest contributor, those governments do no allow liberal ideas to flourish. The rest of Arab countries are different, where liberal ideas are part of the discourse, only anti-government dissent is punished.

It's still facing challenges

Egypt 'worst for women' out of 22 countries in Arab world

Egypt is now the worst country for women's rights in the Arab world, according to a poll of gender experts.

The study found sexual harassment, high rates of female genital mutilation and a growth in conservative Islamist groups contributed to the low ranking.

The Comoros islands came top in the survey, which was conducted by the Thomson Reuters Foundation.

The poll surveyed more than 330 gender experts in 21 Arab League states as well as Syria.

It is the foundation's third annual study focusing on women's rights since the Arab Uprisings in 2011.

Discriminatory laws and a spike in trafficking contributed to Egypt's place at the bottom of the ranking of 22 Arab states, the survey said.

A UN report in April said 99.3% of women and girls in Egypt had been subjected to sexual harassment.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24908109

While women are struggling they are at least being able to make progress (lengthy article below worth a read)

Although Egyptian women have made major strides in parliament and in fighting female genital mutilation, the deeply religious society remains very much rooted in conservative traditions.

http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/The-struggle-forwomens-rights-in-Egypt-483059

Obviously somewhere like SA these days would probably just round up all protestors/feminists and so on and jail them/punish them. Although right at the start of that article this as an opener is both comical and sad as to how such a small example can show how a society is changing

A small fountain with four partially nude mermaids holding up the water flowing from its center was deemed grossly offensive and the Islamists covered it up. Al Masry Al Youm published photos of the mermaids before and after they received their burkas. Twitter users mocked the covering. ”Forward to the 7th century," wrote @RachidH. Others were angrier, calling the action ”sick" and noting that a banner placed on the fountain said women should ”dedicate time for their husbands."

And if the above causes outrage you can obviously forsee how the below was handled

A woman activist who posted nude pictures of herself on her blog to protest limits on free expression has triggered an uproar in Egypt, drawing condemnations from conservatives and liberals alike.

Some liberals feared that the posting by 20-year-old university student Aliaa Magda Elmahdy would taint them in the eyes of deeply conservative Egyptians ahead of Nov. 28 parliamentary elections in which they are trying to compete with fundamentalist Islamic parties.

Nudity is strongly frowned upon in Egyptian society, even as an art form. Elmahdy's posting is almost unheard of in a country where most women in the Muslim majority wear the headscarf and even those who don't rarely wear clothes exposing the arms or legs in public.

Bonus

Elmahdy and her boyfriend Kareem Amer, also a controversial blogger, have challenged Egypt's social strictures before. Earlier this year, they posted mobile phone video footage of themselves debating with managers of a public park who threw them out for public displays of affection.

Amer, who spent four years in prison for blog posting deemed insulting to Islam and for calling Mubarak a "symbol of tyranny," chided liberals who condemned Elmahdy.

"I think we should not be afraid of those in power or Islamists, as much as we should be worried of politicians claiming to be liberal," he wrote on his Facebook page. "They are ready to sacrifice us to avoid tarnishing their image."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...t-sparks-outrage-by-posting-herself-nude.html

Locking people up for blogs, yeah, not a great statement for the country.... Pretty much on the same level as arresting/locking people up for wearing a skirt.

Disagree with the bolded. Half of Lebanon thinks an uncovered woman's face is "inappropriate". That is fucked up.

Personally I do not disagree, the okay remark was more when comparing it to some of the other results.

 

[Theonik]

Disagree with the bolded. Half of Lebanon thinks an uncovered woman's face is "inappropriate". It's a little better than the other countries, but it's still really fucked up.

To be fair, the wording on these polls is very important. There is a difference in preference from forbidding uncovered attire. Culturally speaking you might find cultures that wish to preserve local custom and tradition, but are still tolerant of diversity.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

To be fair, the wording on these polls is very important. There is a difference in preference from forbidding uncovered attire. Culturally speaking you might find cultures that wish to preserve local custom and tradition, but are still tolerant of diversity.

"Appropriateness" isn't just about desiring to preserve tradition, it has a moral value judgment.

 

[Theonik]

"Appropriateness" isn't just about desiring to preserve tradition, it has a moral value judgment.

Yes. But it's not incompatible with liberal values inherently speaking.
You can think something is wrong but still support another's right to it.

E:
Exact wording in each language this poll was administered would have a big impact I reckon too.
Which is largely why studies like this are largely bollocks and only really relevant to whatever agenda they are pushing. (comparing state statistics tends to be even worse since they tend to use completely different methodologies which need to be accounted for)

 

[Alo0oy]

Only 4% of Egyptians think an uncovered woman is appropriate. And Egypt only banned FGM 10 years ago and it's only banned in the books and still prevalent. I wouldn't call any of that "normal"...

What bullshit poll was that? I see more than 4% of the population not wearing Hijab just by leaving the Alexandria airport.

It's still facing challenges







http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24908109

While women are struggling they are at least being able to make progress (lengthy article below worth a read)



http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/The-struggle-forwomens-rights-in-Egypt-483059

Obviously somewhere like SA these days would probably just round up all protestors/feminists and so on and jail them/punish them. Although right at the start of that article this as an opener is both comical and sad as to how such a small example can show how a society is changing



And if the above causes outrage you can obviously forsee how the below was handled





Bonus



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolo...t-sparks-outrage-by-posting-herself-nude.html

Locking people up for blogs, yeah, not a great statement for the country.... Pretty much on the same level as arresting/locking people up for wearing a skirt.



Personally I do not disagree, the okay remark was more when comparing it to some of the other results.

We were talking about clothing. And what people consider "normal" clothing is actually quite common in Egypt. Women's rights in the ME have a long way to go, a really long way. But we need to discuss the actual issues women face instead of made up ones. On the Hijab case, there are certain families that "pressure" women into wearing Hijab instead of allowing them to choose, that pressure is not violent, but very often overwhelming, so young women end up wearing Hijab when they're with family, and not wearing it and/or partially wearing it.

If you want to read up on accurate feminist issues women face in Egypt instead of inaccurate polls or Western media-bent coverage, go nazra.org, which is the largest feminist NGO in Egypt.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What bullshit poll was that? I see more than 4% of the population not wearing Hijab just by leaving the Alexandria airport.

*shrugs* The source is in the image.

 

[Alo0oy]

*shrugs* The source is in the image.

It's very inaccurate to anyone that has spent more than 10 minutes in Egypt.

 

[Dude Abides]

It's very inaccurate to anyone that has spent more than 10 minutes in Egypt.

My anecdotes trump your data!

 

[Audioboxer]

What bullshit poll was that? I see more than 4% of the population not wearing Hijab just by leaving the Alexandria airport.



We were talking about clothing. And what people consider "normal" clothing is actually quite common in Egypt. Women's rights in the ME have a long way to go, a really long way. But we need to discuss the actual issues women face instead of made up ones. On the Hijab case, there are certain families that "pressure" women into wearing Hijab instead of allowing them to choose, that pressure is not violent, but very often overwhelming, so young women end up wearing Hijab when they're with family, and not wearing it and/or partially wearing it.

I've been with you most posts in this topic, but I find that a bit challenging to stomach. I don't think anything posted or spoken about is ever "made up issues". All of the above is backed by stats/analysis and many minds contributing data. Some issues might not be as severe as others, but as I said earlier if you aren't continually on your feet and challenging around the clock you can give way to ways of thinking that slowly eat away at your own rights/autonomy/how society views you. Very little about what any activists or feminists fight for in the ME is ever "made up". You can parcel certain things into stages on a scale of severity, that's understandable, but even less critical challenges can't simply be classed as "made up". It's all relative to the ongoing pursuit of well educated, accepting and forward thinking societies.

Many would say the destruction of public statues/art/buildings is of low importance compared to rapes/FGM/etc, but the thought behind it is often extremist conservative inspired. Like how ISIS will routinely destroy all forms of history/artefacts/buildings/etc. It's parts of the same overly hostile/extreme conservative views that aim to oppress and control. As above if a fountain depicting a breast causes outrage, is it any wonder the actual women end up being severely restricted/oppressed/controlled? While not everywhere enforces strict law, and you can say I see women without headwear, it's still often a hostile environment for said women to be in if it results in staring/looking down on/commentating/abusing/harassment and so on.

The poll specifically cited earlier wasn't saying only 4% of women in Egypt are like/can be like image 6 (hair/face shown). It was showing how societal views shape opinion, and with said opinion can come many challenges even if it's not directly the Government locking people up. As I did go on to show though, Egypt does still have examples of locking people up for ridiculous things.

To quote a little bit more of the article with the mermaid breasts

For some women in Egypt, the fate of the mermaids was symbolic of the fate that awaited them in 2011 after Hosni Mubarak was ejected from power and it appeared the Muslim Brotherhood would be the main beneficiary of the protests and chaotic transition toward democracy that followed. For Egyptians, it was not a conflict between the secularism of the West and Islam, but between what kind of Islam would be dominant in the country.

In 2007, Hamza Hendawi of the Associated Press noted that conservative Islam was embraced by the vast majority in places like Alexandria. ”The only women in Alexandria who don't wear the Islamic veil are Christians and a small minority of Muslims. Women have long stopped wearing swimsuits on the city's famous beaches." Restaurants, bars and nightclubs were closing. It was a ”far cry" from the Alexandria of old as seen in movies and photos. A Pew Poll published in July 2016 showed that 74% of Egyptians prefer making Shari'a law the official law.

http://www.jpost.com/Magazine/The-struggle-forwomens-rights-in-Egypt-483059

As I said, for activists and feminists it's often an on-going battle/struggle. Many places in the ME and across Europe are slowly going through transformations that could ultimately end up with them being ever more like Saudi Arabia.

 

[Lionel Richie]

It is really telling that you deflect by using this example as if to suggest they are equivalent, or the levels of freedom are the same in France as in Saudi Arabia. Anyone who criticizes the French bans and defends Saudi Arabia here has really fucked up priorities.

Yeah and even if people want to do this, it's extra fucked up they ignore the legal punishment in question. What's the punishment in France? A fine? In the case of Saudi Arabia there's a distinct chance she will be fucking lashed or downright executed. These are not the same.

 

[darkinstinct]

You are talking about laws in a country that stones people to death, publicly flogs them, cuts of extremities or rips out eyeballs. You can't approach that with common sense or force them to change. They are basically in their medieval ages, give them 200 years and they will change(because once their oil is gone they will have to change).

 

[Emperor_Uriel]

So is this lady dead or in hiding yet?

 

[Alo0oy]

My anecdotes trump your data!

When the data is overwhelmingly inaccurate, sure. 4% if baffingly inaccurate, like not even close to being believable.

I've been with you most posts in this topic, but I find that a bit challenging to stomach. I don't think anything posted or spoken about is ever "made up issues". All of the above is backed by stats/analysis and many minds contributing data. Some issues might not be as severe as others, but as I said earlier if you aren't continually on your feet and challenging around the clock you can give way to ways of thinking that slowly eat away at your own rights/autonomy/how society views you. Very little about what any activists or feminists fight for in the ME is ever "made up". You can parcel certain things into stages on a scale of severity, that's understandable, but even less critical challenges can't simply be classed as "made up". It's all relative to the ongoing pursuit of well educated, accepting and forward thinking societies.

Many would say the destruction of public statues/art/buildings is of low importance compared to rapes/FGM/etc, but the thought behind it is often extremist conservative inspired. Like how ISIS will routinely destroy all forms of history/artefacts/buildings/etc. It's parts of the same overly hostile/extreme conservative views that aim to oppress and control. As above if a fountain depicting a breast causes outrage, is it any wonder the actual women end up being severely restricted/oppressed/controlled? While not everywhere enforces strict law, and you can say I see women without headwear, it's still often a hostile environment for said women to be in if it results in staring/looking down on/commentating/abusing/harassment and so on.

I was not saying what or how severe an issue is. The original conversation was about how common "normal" clothes are. That was it. Beginning the conversation with inaccurate data is a very poor foundation.

There are a lot of issues women in the Arab world face, and the best path in fixing that is listening to them, not a white feminist from the West, and not an Arab dude either. Listen to Arab women, observe, and try not to Bill Maher them.

If you can't read Arabic, look up Mona Eltahawy, she's Egyptian American and speaks out a lot for Arab women.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

Because that's how it works in that region? Can we, as outsiders, at least respect their laws?

That's what I mean by bringing up that proverb. We should look up on information regarding the region before visiting any unknown place.



Kissing and maybe having sex in public might be the norm for you, but in other parts of the world, it's an embarrassment to humanity.

You can't have a universal 'custom', it varies depending on where you live.

Slavery is custom in some parts of the world. It's still wrong.

If your culture endorses the repression of women or other groups, FUCK YOUR CULTURE. It is not acceptable, it will never be acceptable, and people like us who actually care about human rights instead of throwing up our hands because of laziness or cowardice will never stop pointing out that it's unacceptable.

 

[randome]

Cant even believe the people defending this shit. Women shouldn't have to cover up or hide or ask for permission anymore than men...NO MATTER WHERE THEY ARE. These ridiculous countries and their dumb laws, ugh.

 

[Audioboxer]

When the data is overwhelmingly inaccurate, sure. 4% if baffingly inaccurate, like not even close to being believable.



I was not saying what or how severe an issue is. The original conversation was about how common "normal" clothes are. That was it. Beginning the conversation with inaccurate data is a very poor foundation.

There are a lot of issues women in the Arab world face, and the best path in fixing that is listening to them, not a white feminist from the West, and not an Arab dude either. Listen to Arab women, observe, and try not to Bill Maher them.

If you can't read Arabic, look up Mona Eltahawy, she's Egyptian American and speaks out a lot for Arab women.

The data is not inaccurate. The data interprets public opinion on what clothing is acceptable. That does not mean a direct correlation to what you could observe. Unless the data is from somewhere like SA where you will be arrested like the woman in the OP. As far as I'm aware Egypt hasn't gone as far to arrest everyone wearing skirts and not covering their hair. The creeping intolerance often starts out as societal pressure before the indoctrinated then cry out for Government law. From above

In 2007, Hamza Hendawi of the Associated Press noted that conservative Islam was embraced by the vast majority in places like Alexandria. ”The only women in Alexandria who don't wear the Islamic veil are Christians and a small minority of Muslims. Women have long stopped wearing swimsuits on the city's famous beaches." Restaurants, bars and nightclubs were closing. It was a ”far cry" from the Alexandria of old as seen in movies and photos. A Pew Poll published in July 2016 showed that 74% of Egyptians prefer making Shari'a law the official law.

Hence why activists and feminists alike get incredibly alarmed when places like Turkey and Egypt begin to regress and turn to hardline conservative fundamentalist views and cry out for said views to become the law of the land. Once it becomes the law of the land then welcome to hell where dissenting views are silenced/arrested or worse. Aka, Saudi Arabia.

As for your last comment, while there is some truth in that in theory, it's also worth remembering if you ask someone indoctrinated/scared/under threat to answer a question that may have repercussions for them, what do you think they will answer? This is one of the best illusions played on "western feminists" where they walk away confident because a woman dressed in the ninja outfit says she has a choice it's a done deal and no further commentating is required. There's a lot to unpack as to why many women can actively answer against their own freedoms/potential and living standards. At the forefront is often fear/indoctrination and years of daily enforcement.

 

[Alo0oy]

The data is not inaccurate. The data interprets public opinion on what clothing is acceptable. That does not mean a direct correlation to what you could observe. Unless the data is from somewhere like SA where you will be arrested like the woman in the OP. As far as I'm aware Egypt hasn't gone as far to arrest everyone wearing skirts and not covering their hair. The creeping intolerance often starts out as societal pressure before the indoctrinated then cry out for Government law. From above



Hence why activists and feminists alike get incredibly alarmed when places like Turkey and Egypt being to regress and turn to hardline conservative fundamentalist views and cry out for said views to become the law of the land. Once it becomes the law of the land then welcome to hell where dissenting views are silenced/arrested or worse. Aka, Saudi Arabia.

As for your last comment, while there is some truth in that in theory, it's also worth remembering if you ask someone indoctrinated/scared/under threat to answer a question that may have repercussions for them, what do you think they will answer? This is one of the best illusions played on "western feminists" where they walk away confident because a woman dressed in the ninja outfit says she has a choice it's a done deal and no further commentating is required. There's a lot to unpack as to why many women can actively answer against their own freedoms/potential and living standards. At the forefront is often fear/indoctrination and years of daily enforcement.

White feminists have western privilege and an ethnocentric viewpoint. Arab men have male privilege. You can't deny those privileges. Arab feminists in America are much more muted in America than they are in the ME, because white people use them to be racist towards Arabs. Arab women in the ME are much more radical/leftists towards the religious establishment and patriarchal culture than you will ever see in America. They don't have to tip-toe around the issue because there isn't a white feminist in the corner that spouts ignorant borderline racist opinions.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

White feminists have western privilege and an ethnocentric viewpoint. Arab men have male privilege. You can't deny those privileges. Arab feminists in America are much more muted in America than they are in the ME, because white people use them to be racist towards Arabs. Arab women in the ME are much more radical/leftists towards the religious establishment and patriarchal culture than you will ever see in America. They don't have to tip-toe around the issue because there isn't a white feminist in the corner that spouts ignorant borderline racist opinions.

The view that women should not be repressed is not ethnocentrism, it's goddamn human decency. What the fuck are you even trying to say here?

 

[LiK]

Phew, just read on CBS that she was released without charge. Probably got scolded like crazy, I bet.

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/887692383726559232

 

[Alo0oy]

The view that women should not be repressed is not ethnocentrism, it's goddamn human decency. What the fuck are you even trying to say here?

Where the fuck did I say they should be repressed? I said listen to Arab feminists, give them a platform, and allow them to voice their grievances. It's up to them and ONLY them. They are the ones that are systematically oppressed based on their gender.

 

[Audioboxer]

White feminists have western privilege and an ethnocentric viewpoint. Arab men have male privilege. You can't deny those privileges. Arab feminists in America are much more muted in America than they are in the ME, because white people use them to be racist towards Arabs. Arab women in the ME are much more radical/leftists towards the religious establishment and patriarchal culture than you will ever see in America. They don't have to tip-toe around the issue because there isn't a white feminist in the corner that spouts ignorant borderline racist opinions.

I'm not going to counteract discussions of privilege as they can be fair, but there are times in life people genuinely get involved/speak up simply because they have progressive views on how societies, globally, should treat and respect women. It can be that simple.

I accept different cultures can sometimes vary on how they do things, but the ideal situation around the majority of the world would be most places displaying a baseline of respect for women and accepting male/female counterparts have equal rights in the eyes of the law.

Phew, just read on CBS that she was released without charge. Probably got scolded like crazy, I bet.

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/887692383726559232

Good, hopefully international eyes counted for something. However, let's see if she carries on with her instagram photos and way of dressing.... I bet not. She'll probably have to go into hiding now too to prevent vigilante justice. Best bets would probably be trying to leave SA.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Phew, just read on CBS that she was released without charge. Probably got scolded like crazy, I bet.

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/887692383726559232

Good. And hopefully she will not be attacked by some crazies over this later on.

 

[Alo0oy]

I'm not going to counteract discussions of privilege as they can be fair, but there are times in life people genuinely get involved/speak up simply because they have progressive views on how societies, globally, should treat and respect women. It can be that simple.

I accept different cultures can sometimes vary on how they do things, but the ideal situation around the majority of the world would be most places displaying a baseline of respect for women and accepting male/female counterparts have equal rights in the eyes of the law..

But we are not talking only about basic human decency. There are challenges that are unique to Arab women, and it can only be learnt from their perspective. The laws in the Middle East are written by rich Arab males, and the laws in the West are written by white people, those people have absolutely no perspective on the things marginalized groups face, the least they can do is be empathetic and listen. The baseline of decency and personal freedom should always be established as a start. But white people have no right to lecture Arab women, and Arab men have absolutely no right to even question their experiences.

 

[HazySaiyan]

Phew, just read on CBS that she was released without charge. Probably got scolded like crazy, I bet.

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/887692383726559232

Thank God for that, hopefully she's safe now

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's very inaccurate to anyone that has spent more than 10 minutes in Egypt.

My anecdotes trump your data!

lol, seriously

Are you misunderstanding the data, Alo0? It's not about what you see. The 4% isn't saying "4% of women walk around with no head covering".

Where the fuck did I say they should be repressed? I said listen to Arab feminists, give them a platform, and allow them to voice their grievances.

Absolutely

It's up to them and ONLY them.

What the fuck? No. This sounds like a pathetic silencing tactic, "shut up about this because you aren't an Arab". Non-Arab feminists should absolutely speak up and be allies in this. [Edit: International pressure needs to keep happening. It's probably what saved this woman, see below]

Phew, just read on CBS that she was released without charge. Probably got scolded like crazy, I bet.

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/887692383726559232

That's good. Probably no charge only because of international scrutiny though. Nothing will change. :\

 

[jett]

This lady should leave that country immediately. I've no doubt she's in danger.

Not for long with Turkey's present trajectory. Most people consider that kind of dress inappropriate there too.
Of course there is a big gap from that, banning it, and imprisoning tourists.

It seems inevitable that Turkey becomes just as fucked up.

 

[Audioboxer]

But we are not talking only about basic human decency. There are challenges that are unique to Arab women, and it can only be learnt from their perspective. The laws in the Middle East are written by rich Arab males, and the laws in the West are written by white people, those people have absolutely no perspective on the things marginalized groups face, the least they can do is be empathetic and listen. The baseline of decency and personal freedom should always be established as a start. But white people have no right to lecture Arab women, and Arab men have absolutely no right to even question their experiences.

A flawed hard line approach to take, unless you subscribe to some "out of sight" mantra where you're actively trying to make it harder for people in places who could need support and backing from a wider audience. Are you truly going to say it was only up to this Arab woman who was arrested to stand on her own feet and face this alone? The fact it got international attention, Twitter lighting up and soo many talking probably helped her.

You're now hitting on a way of thinking I think can be seriously toxic, and very exclusionary. The idea that it truly isn't the place for anyone but the oppressed to speak out/try and help themselves. No. Part of the onus is on humanity at large to get involved and help each other, no matter your skin colour/place of birth/ethnicity or gender. Quite often people in oppressed positions do require or benefit greatly from the wider populations speaking out. Said populations need to take care and take note of many things, but they should never be told to be silent because it's impossible to contribute due to their skin colour/place of birth. Diplomacy and enacting pressure via debate/criticism on other countries behaviours routinely comes via spoken word. What're the alternatives, to do and say nothing, or to go to war? Yeah, I think most would prefer streams of thought, debate and criticism coming from abroad rather than guns or bombs.

People in SA cannot even speak publicly or criticise in fear of being arrested for dissent and you're trying to say it's simply up to them to speak out? Nah. As a means of dissent and criticism as many people as possible in as many countries that allow it should all speak out and lambaste the SA Government. No matter what skin colour they have or where they are living. It's a collective effort to try and do whatever we can to challenge failings like are seen in SA. It just doesn't help both the UN and many of our Governments won't follow suit because they're too busy lining their pockets or guzzling oil.

 

[Alo0oy]

What the fuck? No. This sounds like a pathetic silencing tactic, "shut up about this because you aren't an Arab". Non-Arab feminists should absolutely speak up and be allies in this. [Edit: International pressure needs to keep happening. It's probably what saved this woman, see below]

That's not what I said, the decisions should be up to them. Everyone else should support their decisions. e.g: White people shouldn't say what is good or bad for Arab women, they get to decide that, and allies should respect and fully support their decisions.

It's not a hard or foreign concept in even America, it's similar to how black feminist issues are usually handled in black feminist circles. Listen to them, support them, but keep in mind that you're not part of the decision making process if you are not a black woman.

A flawed hard line approach to take, unless you subscribe to some "out of sight" mantra where you're actively trying to make it harder for people in places who could need support and backing from a wider audience. Are you truly going to say it was only up to this Arab woman who was arrested to stand on her own feet and face this alone? The fact it got international attention, Twitter lighting up and soo many talking probably helped her.

You're now hitting on a way of thinking I think can be seriously toxic, and very exclusionary. The idea that it truly isn't the place for anyone but the oppressed to speak out/try and help themselves. No. Part of the onus is on humanity at large to get involved and help each other, no matter your skin colour/place of birth/ethnicity or gender. Quite often people in oppressed positions do require or benefit greatly from the wider populations speaking out. Said populations need to take care and take note of many things, but they should never be told to be silent because it's impossible to contribute due to their skin colour/place of birth. Diplomacy and enacting pressure via debate/criticism on other countries behaviours routinely comes via spoken word. What're the alternatives, to do and say nothing, or to go to war? Yeah, I think most would prefer streams of thought, debate and criticism coming from abroad rather than guns or bombs.

See above.

 

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

So any updates on the status of this poor lady? I am willing to bet SA government will release her soon enough without too much trouble, just to demonstrate to the rest of the world of how "tolerant" they are... "See, we're not that radical, we're tolerant."

I'm glad This took off and went viral around the world. God knows how many women (detached from social media) unfairly get arrested and mistreated in that country on daily basis that we never hear about.

It's also good to see GAF's OT stock value going up a few percent. Thanks to the departure of the Brass Pigeon.

 

[Audioboxer]

That's not what I said, the decisions should be up to them. Everyone else should support their decisions. e.g: White people shouldn't say what is good or bad for Arab women, they get to decide that, and allies should respect and fully support their decisions.

It's not a hard or foreign concept in even America, it's similar to how black feminist issues are usually handled in black feminist circles. Listen to them, support them, but keep in mind that you're not part of the decision making process if you are not a black woman.

See above.

Somewhat flawed comparison. As I said people in SA cannot even have the multitude of activist groups we have around places in the West because they'd all be locked up/arrested or worse.

SA is so far behind America right now it's not at the stage you're trying to suggest. The people there actively need allies outside of the country to routinely put pressure on it/criticise it and be there to do what many of the people inside currently can't.

 

[Alo0oy]

Somewhat flawed comparison. As I said people in SA cannot even have the multitude of activist groups we have around places in the West because they'd all be locked up/arrested or worse.

SA is so far behind America right now it's not at the stage you're trying to suggest. The people there actively need allies outside of the country to routinely put pressure on it/criticise it and be there to do what many of the people inside currently can't.

You're misunderstanding me again. I never said don't support them, that's the antithesis of what I said. Saudi feminists for example have routinely called for allies in the West to pressure their government, and they are all over twitter every single day (using anonymous twitter accounts). What I said: Don't make decisions for them, listen to them and support their decisions.

EDIT: If you are serious about supporting Arab feminists, I can connect you to the right channels.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

What I said: Don't make decisions for them

Who is doing that?? Other than Saudi males obviously...

 

[Audioboxer]

You're misunderstanding me again. I never said don't support them, that's the antithesis of what I said. Saudi feminists for example have routinely called for allies in the West to pressure their government, and they are all over twitter every single day (using anonymous twitter accounts). What I said: Don't make decisions for them, listen to them and support their decisions.

EDIT: If you are serious about supporting Arab feminists, I can connect you to the right channels.

I do not make decisions for anyone. I talk about and debate ideas/ideologies/ways of thinking and so on. I'm doing the bare minimum in life to contribute. I know that. It's not a competition though because not everyone can be a frontline activist. Everyone has a brain and a mouth, and we can all get engaged in the battle of ideas. Especially if we do live in countries where we have the privilege (or basic rights) to speak openly and be critical without fear of imprisonment/flogging/hurt.

If in your edit you mean supplying YT channels, papers, articles, Twitter accounts and more to follow/read, go ahead. It'll be useful for more than just me. If it's a flippant remark to suggest I should be travelling the world to put my words where my mouth is, re-read above. We do not all have the capabilities to do what some can do, but we all have the basic baseline of a brain, a mouth and the internet/blogs/daily life interactions to voice supportive opinions. As individuals we're sometimes like a singular ant, but as a collective humans can get things done.

 

[Alo0oy]

Who is doing that?? Other than Saudi males obviously...

I was talking about the larger discourse regarding Arab women in the entire world. Politicians keep telling Arab women what to wear and what not to wear, white feminists keep telling Arab women what is right for them "to save them". Arab men keep pressuring them into wearing or not wearing a Hijab (yes, the latter scenario also exists). The possibilities are endless, but what about what Arab women themselves think?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

but what about what Arab women themselves think?

Apparently some of them want to wear skirts in scorching heat. And they should absolutely be free to do that.

Arab women can wear whatever they want, but if the conservative ones dictate to other Arab women what to wear and deny them the freedom to wear normal clothing as they please, then they are wrong, period.

 

[Alo0oy]

I do not make decisions for anyone. I talk about and debate ideas/ideologies/ways of thinking and so on. I'm doing the bare minimum in life to contribute. I know that. It's not a competition though because not everyone can be a frontline activist. Everyone has a brain and a mouth, and we can all get engaged in the battle of ideas. Especially if we do live in countries where we have the privilege (or basic rights) to speak openly and be critical without fear of imprisonment/flogging/hurt.

If in your edit you mean supplying YT channels, papers, articles, Twitter accounts and more to follow/read, go ahead. It'll be useful for more than just me. If it's a flippant remark to suggest I should be travelling the world to put my words where my mouth is, re-read above. We do not all have the capabilities to do what some can do, but we all have the basic baseline of a brain, a mouth and the internet/blogs/daily life interactions to voice supportive opinions. As individuals we're sometimes like a singular ant, but as a collective humans can get things done.

Sorry if that came off as flippant. I'm actually serious. I know you mean well, but Arab women either face orientalism from white male feminists that want them to "go back to being hot", or lack of intersectionality from white female feminists. So if you are interested, I can connect you to some books, websites, and a few twitter accounts.

 

[Alo0oy]

Apparently some of them want to wear skirts in scorching heat. And they should absolutely be free to do that.

Arab women can wear whatever they want, but if the conservative ones dictate to other Arab women what to wear and deny them the freedom to wear normal clothing as they please, then they are wrong, period.

I don't know why we are arguing then? That's what I've been saying for pages lol.

As for the bolded part, nobody has a right to Arab women's bodies, it's their bodies, their decision, whether that person is conservative or not.

 

[Audioboxer]

Sorry if that came off as flippant. I'm actually serious. I know you mean well, but Arab women either face orientalism from white male feminists that want them to "go back to being hot", or lack of intersectionality from white female feminists. So if you are interested, I can connect you to some books, websites, and a few twitter accounts.

Sure, go ahead. I've been trying myself to post articles and other findings in this topic that anyone can read (as long as they are somewhat linked to the OP).

Speaking of activists within the country

According to her daughter, Souad al-Shammari was made to sign a pledge to stop or ”reduce" her activism.

One of the founding members of the Saudi Arabian Liberals Network, Raif Badawi, was sentenced in September to 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes for his online activism, and he was publicly flogged in 9 January.

https://www.amnestyusa.org/victories/good-news-saudi-arabia-souad-al-shammari-released/

Much longer article here

The feminist trying to change Saudi Arabia's strict Islamic law

JIDDAH, Saudi Arabia — When Souad al-Shammary posted a series of tweets about the thick beards worn by Saudi clerics, she never imagined she would land in jail.

She put up images of several men with beards: An Orthodox Jew, a hipster, a communist, an Ottoman Caliph, a Sikh, and a Muslim. She wrote that having a beard was not what made a man holy or a Muslim. And she pointed out that one of Islam's staunchest critics during the time of Prophet Muhammad had an even longer beard than him.

The frank comments are typical of this twice-divorced mother of six and graduate of Islamic law, who is in many ways a walking challenge to taboos in deeply conservative Saudi Arabia. Raised a devout girl in a large tribe where she tended sheep, al-Shammary is now a 42-year-old liberal feminist who roots her arguments in Islam, taking on Saudi Arabia's powerful religious establishment.

https://nypost.com/2016/11/07/the-feminist-trying-to-change-saudi-arabias-strict-islamic-law/

As if often the case the people that try to speak out from within face serious consequences.

edit: Bonus, linked to how places like the UK view/treat SA (on a Government level) ~ Theresa May denies suppressing report into Saudi Arabia's funding of UK Islamist extremism to protect arms deals £££$$$

Theresa May has denied suppressing a report into Saudi Arabia's funding of Islamist extremism in Britain to protect lucrative arms sales to the country.

The Prime Minister was also accused of burying the results of the investigation because publication would ”embarrass the Government's friends in Saudi Arabia".

 

[see5harp]

White feminists have western privilege and an ethnocentric viewpoint. Arab men have male privilege. You can't deny those privileges. Arab feminists in America are much more muted in America than they are in the ME, because white people use them to be racist towards Arabs. Arab women in the ME are much more radical/leftists towards the religious establishment and patriarchal culture than you will ever see in America. They don't have to tip-toe around the issue because there isn't a white feminist in the corner that spouts ignorant borderline racist opinions.

What the hell are you even saying.

 

[y2dvd]

So any updates on the status of this poor lady? I am willing to bet SA government will release her soon enough without too much trouble, just to demonstrate to the rest of the world of how "tolerant" they are... "See, we're not that radical, we're tolerant."

I'm glad This took off and went viral around the world. God knows how many women (detached from social media) unfairly get arrested and mistreated in that country on daily basis that we never hear about.

It's also good to see GAF's OT stock value going up a few percent. Thanks to the departure of the Brass Pigeon.

Apparently she was released without charges. I hope she remains safe.

 

[Netherscourge]

Phew, just read on CBS that she was released without charge. Probably got scolded like crazy, I bet.

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/887692383726559232

She better flee the country while she still can.

The assholes in the streets will probably lynch her on site.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I don't know why we are arguing then? That's what I've been saying for pages lol.

As for the bolded part, nobody has a right to Arab women's bodies, it's their bodies, their decision, whether that person is conservative or not.

Yes... but my point is, if (some) Arab women defend the status quo of not letting women dress how they want, they are still wrong and should be opposed.

If we agree, cool, but then I just wonder why you insist on saying "let Arab women decide for themselves". Freedom and equality are not cultural quirks, they are non-negotiable. Or, in other words:

What the hell are you even saying.

.

 

[Dude Abides]

When the data is overwhelmingly inaccurate, sure. 4% if baffingly inaccurate, like not even close to being believable.

But you have no idea if it's accurate or not, because your trips to the airport are not sufficient to support the claim that it is.

Or maybe that's just a white feminist construct too.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Phew, just read on CBS that she was released without charge. Probably got scolded like crazy, I bet.

https://twitter.com/CBSNews/status/887692383726559232

Thank fuck for that.