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[Golden_Pigeon]

Thank you for the sociology lesson.

This thread is about this specific incident. If you have an issue with it worldwide, start another thread. You're derailing this one so you can stand up on a soapbox and tell us how terrible everyone else is too.

I'm not derailing anything, i'm pointing out our own western hypocrisy since we are, by law, enforcing women modesty (your term) while criticizing others who do it according to others standards.
Both are absolutely wrong. Not recognizing this is just plain hypocrisy.
This thread could at least be useful in that sense, i don't think that KSA had a better image on GAF before this sad incident.

 

[elrechazado]

I'm not derailing anything, i'm pointing out our own western hypocrisy since we are, by law, enforcing women modesty (your term) while criticizing others who do it according to others standards. Both are absolutely wrong. Not recognizing this is just plain hypocrisy. This thread could at least be useful in that sense, i don't think that KSA had a better image on GAF before this sad incident.

But what about the Nazis they were bad too!

The fact that you appear to have zero ability to distinguish any nuance is why nobody is talking a word you say seriously.

 

[HStallion]

I'm not derailing anything, i'm pointing out our own western hypocrisy since we are, by law, enforcing women modesty (your term) while criticizing others who do it according to others standards. Both are absolutely wrong. Not recognizing this is just plain hypocrisy. This thread could at least be useful in that sense, i don't think that KSA had a better image on GAF before this sad incident.

Except you are derailing it. This thread has literally become about your moral crusade to remind us about how bad the West is too. Again, make another thread if you're so concerned about it and stop shitting this one up.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

But what about the Nazis they were bad too!

The fact that you appear to have zero ability to distinguish any nuance is why nobody is talking a word you say seriously.

There is nuances, it dosen't make that legit criticism if you're not willing to condemn the general principle behind it and not just this particular application.

 

[beelzebozo]

thanks religion

worthless blight

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Except you are derailing it. This thread has literally become about your moral crusade to remind us about how bad the West is too. Again, make another thread if you're so concerned about it and stop shitting this one up.

I think that we are all more way more similar than we use to think.
It's why i stick with Levi-Strauss definition of the civilized/barbarian dichotomy.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

There is nuances, it dosen't make that legit criticism if you're not willing to condemn the general principle behind it and not just this particular application.

Because it generally goes without saying that sexism, in any form, is wrong.

But that’s not what this thread is about.

 

[Jenov]

I mean, I understand that across the world there can be different definitions of what is considered modest, but I feel like that's just a red herring being thrown here. When you combine the enforced coverings with the stark lack of rights and restrictions on these women it's a much bigger problem. SA doesn't just have modesty difference between the West, they have glaring woman's rights issues and people are pointing to the forced cover up of women there as a symptom of the larger problem.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

I mean, I understand that across the world there can be different definitions of what is considered modest, but I feel like that's just a red herring being thrown here. When you combine the enforced coverings with the stark lack of rights and restrictions on these women it's a much bigger problem. SA doesn't just have modesty difference between the West, they have glaring woman's rights issues and people are pointing to the forced cover up of women there as a symptom of the larger problem.

But in France, you might get fined for flashing your naked vagina in the street! That’s obviously exactly as bad as what’s going on here!

 

[HStallion]

I think that we are all more way more similar than we use to think.
It's why i stick with Levi-Strauss definition of the civilized/barbarian dichotomy.

You're fucking shameless in your bull shit I'll give you that.

 

[Agnostic]

I hope she isn't harmed for doing this.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I mean, I understand that across the world there can be different definitions of what is considered modest, but I feel like that's just a red herring being thrown here. When you combine the enforced coverings with the stark lack of rights and restrictions on these women it's a much bigger problem. SA doesn't just have modesty difference between the West, they have glaring woman's rights issues and people are pointing to the forced cover up of women there as a symptom of the larger problem.

Of course, the specificity of KSA is not that they impose "modesty "on women, but it's what we are more eager to view since it's the most blatant example of a cultural difference. We are way more less inclined to point out thing that are closer to us like dictatorship, oligarchy and patriarchy. By that, we try to create an irreducible difference between "them" and "us", transforming a political issue into a "cultural/civilizational" one in which we can boast about our "superiority".

 

[burnjanso]

Thank you for the sociology lesson.

This thread is about this specific incident. If you have an issue with it worldwide, start another thread. You're derailing this one so you can stand up on a soapbox and tell us how terrible everyone else is too.

I don't think pigeon is derailing this thread at all. People who are outraged by this incident, coincidentally seems to be living in western worlds. Every country has different laws in regards to indecent exposure. Korea has laws that forbid indecent exposure. I believe the fine is 40$ for indecent exposure (2013 law). Korean police were carrying rulers in 1970s to measure the length of women skirts. There's even a law that prohibits disgusting behaviors or images. For instance, getting tattoos might be similar to getting a new hair done in the US, but in Korea you could be fined or refused entry in some circumstances if you are sporting too much tattoos. You could even be refused enlistment into military service.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

But in France, you might get fined for flashing your naked vagina in the street! That's obviously exactly as bad as what's going on here!

You can be jailed for showing a nipple.*

*Except in special beaches and there is a park in construction especially for naked people. Not that does change anything but it will make HStallion happy.

Edit: Thanks you Burnjanso, much appreciated.

 

[elrechazado]

Of course, the specificity of KSA is not that they impose "modesty "on women, but it's what we are more eager to view since it's the most blatant example of a cultural difference. We are way more less inclined to point out thing that are closer to us like dictatorship, oligarchy and patriarchy. By that, we try to create an irreducible difference between "them" and "us", transforming a political issue into a "cultural/civilizational" one in which we can boast about our "superiority".

Your moral equivalence posturing is truly heroic.

 

[HStallion]

You can be jailed for showing a nipple.

You know except for all those times I brought up when people weren't but what do those matter.

 

[elrechazado]

Ireland still has a blasphemy law on the books, and you can be killed for criticizing Mohammed in Saudi Arabia so we can't judge and those are the same thing.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

I don't think pigeon is derailing this thread at all. People who are outraged by this incident, coincidentally seems to be living in western worlds. Every country has different laws in regards to indecent exposure. Korea has laws that forbid indecent exposure. I believe the fine is 40$ for indecent exposure (2013 law). Korean police were carrying rulers in 1970s to measure the length of women skirts. There's even a law that prohibits disgusting behaviors or images. For instance, getting tattoos might be similar to getting a new hair done in the US, but in Korea you could be fined or refused entry in some circumstances if you are sporting too much tattoos. You could even be refused enlistment into military service.

“Living in the western world,” as if somehow it’s acceptable to jail (and possibly beat/torture/kill) a woman for wearing a skirt, if only you lived closer to where it happened.

That’s cultural relativism, and it’s shit. To quote myself from earlier (because I’m tired and going to bed, so I’m not retyping this entire argument):

“I’ve always found this cultural relativism to be so absurd. At what point do you draw the line?

If we were to find a civilization somewhere that believes in torturing and murdering every third baby born into the group, do we intervene? What if they forced the sobbing parents to be the ones to murder the baby? What if it was a seven year old instead of a baby, so that seven year old was fully aware of the world around it? What if the parents had to kill the child by tearing its throat out with their teeth while it was awake and screaming? What if their tradition instead was to torture and murder a child from neighboring cities every full moon?

If you can name any point at which you think it’s safe to step in and prevent harmful actions, your cultural relativism falls apart. As it should. Because at some point, the majority of the species agreed that certain actions are too cruel to be allowed. Including the treatment of women as breeding stock with only two rights: The right to squirt out babies for their husbands and the right to suffer/die if they fight for more rights.

So you can either side with the rest of the species and speak out against this bullshit or continue to coddle monsters.”

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

Of course, the specificity of KSA is not that they impose "modesty "on women, but it's what we are more eager to view since it's the most blatant example of a cultural difference. We are way more less inclined to point out thing that are closer to us like dictatorship, oligarchy and patriarchy. By that, we try to create an irreducible difference between "them" and "us", transforming a political issue into a "cultural/civilizational" one in which we can boast about our "superiority".

Oversimplified nonsense. Sure some people may treat it as an opportunity to feel superior but superiority is not inherent in the recognition of just how different these scenarios are, and the explanation as to why is simple and has been repeated a few times already, i.e., the inconsistency of rules imposed on women vs men based on a view of women according to an extreme, religious fundamentalist ideology.

If superiority should be referenced here at all, it'd be in the context of that ideology and how it views men vs women, and how that is put into practice in KSA's laws and culture.

 

[burnjanso]

You know except for all those times I brought up when people weren't but what do those matter.

Did you know that in Singapore, being nude in your apartment with curtains open can net you a fine of 2000$ and three month in Jail? I do know that this law was used to charge a man in 2014, but I guess someone could bring up times Singaporeans weren't charged. But does that really matter?

 

[HStallion]

Did you know that in Singapore, being nude in your apartment with curtains open can net you a fine of 2000$ and three month in Jail? I do know that this law was used to charge a man in 2014, but I guess someone could bring up times Singaporeans weren't charged. But does that really matter?

No it doesn't really matter as we aren't talking about Singapore. Just like we weren't talking about France and NYC until someone brought them up to go,"What about!"

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

I don't think pigeon is derailing this thread at all. People who are outraged by this incident, coincidentally seems to be living in western worlds. Every country has different laws in regards to indecent exposure. Korea has laws that forbid indecent exposure. I believe the fine is 40$ for indecent exposure (2013 law). Korean police were carrying rulers in 1970s to measure the length of women skirts. There's even a law that prohibits disgusting behaviors or images. For instance, getting tattoos might be similar to getting a new hair done in the US, but in Korea you could be fined or refused entry in some circumstances if you are sporting too much tattoos. You could even be refused enlistment into military service.

I'm not sure how you're convincing anyone with this. Fining someone for too many tattoos is stupid, and jailing someone for wearing a miniskirt is even worse.

 

[cameron]

Chechnya is abducting and torturing gay men, but 'member Kim Davis the Kentucky county clerk? I 'member.

 

[marrec]

She’s being punished for wearing a skirt. It’s ridiculous. It’s sexist. It’s insane.

No amount of pointing at France or whatever other convenient red herring you want to drag out here changes that.

Nah man you don't understand, cultural relativism means everything has to be one extreme or the other.

I guess...?

 

[F0rneus]

I'm not sure how you're convincing anyone with this. Fining someone for too many tattoos is stupid, and jailing someone for wearing a miniskirt is even worse.

Someone needs to tell Korean stars about them fines.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Ireland still has a blasphemy law on the books, and you can be killed for criticizing Mohammed in Saudi Arabia so we can't judge and those are the same thing.

If Ireland is jailing somebody for blasphemy, the fundamental principle behind those two is the same. You can't condemn one without condemning the other. Nobody is saying that they are the same thing but they are the product of the same principle:
"Women modesty should be law-enforced".

 

[burnjanso]

“Living in the western world,” as if somehow it’s acceptable to jail (and possibly beat/torture/kill) a woman for wearing a skirt, if only you lived closer to where it happened.

That’s cultural relativism, and it’s shit. To quote myself from earlier (because I’m tired and going to bed, so I’m not retyping this entire argument):

“I’ve always found this cultural relativism to be so absurd. At what point do you draw the line?

If we were to find a civilization somewhere that believes in torturing and murdering every third baby born into the group, do we intervene? What if they forced the sobbing parents to be the ones to murder the baby? What if it was a seven year old instead of a baby, so that seven year old was fully aware of the world around it? What if the parents had to kill the child by tearing its throat out with their teeth while it was awake and screaming? What if their tradition instead was to torture and murder a child from neighboring cities every full moon?

If you can name any point at which you think it’s safe to step in and prevent harmful actions, your cultural relativism falls apart. As it should. Because at some point, the majority of the species agreed that certain actions are too cruel to be allowed. Including the treatment of women as breeding stock with only two rights: The right to squirt out babies for their husbands and the right to suffer/die if they fight for more rights.

So you can either side with the rest of the species and speak out against this bullshit or continue to coddle monsters.”

How did a topic about indecent exposure suddenly jump to baby torturing? And what do you mean by "rest of the species?" What suddenly gave you the idea that your argument in regards to indecent exposure is supported by the majority of the species?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Oversimplified nonsense. Sure some people may treat it as an opportunity to feel superior but superiority is not inherent in the recognition of just how different these scenarios are, and the explanation as to why is simple and has been repeated a few times already, i.e., the inconsistency of rules imposed on women vs men based on a view of women according to an extreme, religious fundamentalist ideology.

If superiority should be referenced here at all, it'd be in the context of that ideology and how it views men vs women, and how that is put into practice in KSA's laws and culture.

80 % of the reaction on this thread had to do with religion/culture and not about ideology.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

80 % of the reaction on this thread had to do with religion/culture and not about ideology.

You think people are calling this ridiculous to feel superior? Lol

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

You think people are calling this ridiculous to feel superior? Lol

No, they use this issue to assert a perceived cultural/civilizational superiority.
One of the worst offender is the guy who posted an unrelated picture of women in burka on the beach. Like if the issue is with the garb (so the culture) and not the imposition by the state.

And i'm speaking about the culturalist approach of this issue. I'm calling it ridiculous myself.

 

[burnjanso]

Someone needs to tell Korean stars about them fines.

Are you being intentionally dense? I said in some circumstances. For example, saunas, schools, swimming pools etc.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

It's not pretending things aren't what they are, it's misunderstanding the situation. "Religion ruins everything" is ahistorical Bill Maher-level lazy reasoning.

So you think there is no direct relation in say the homophobic passages in the Bible and homophobic behaviours and attitudes among jews and christians ?

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

No, they use this issue to assert a perceived cultural/civilizational superiority.
One of the worst offender is the guy who posted an unrelated picture of women in burka on the beach. Like if the issue is with the garb (so the culture) and not the imposition by the state.

And i'm speaking about the culturalist approach of this issue. I'm calling it ridiculous myself.

So only people who live in SA can criticize their disgusting laws, got it

 

[Peagles]

I read this thread before bed last night and had the most horrible nightmare. I feel so terrified for her. This is so messed up

 

[burnjanso]

I'm not sure how you're convincing anyone with this. Fining someone for too many tattoos is stupid, and jailing someone for wearing a miniskirt is even worse.

It's not stupid at all when tattoos=organized criminals, to many people in Korea. What gives you the high moral ground in saying that this is stupid when obviously people would be discomforted with a man sporting bunch of dragon tattoos and sitting in front of your store all day long to scare away potential customers?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

So only people who live in SA can criticize their disgusting laws, got it

Am i living in SA ?

 

[Media]

For you whataboutism folks:

When a woman goes topless in Bumfuck, Kentucky and it causes such national outrage that people in Canada are fearing for her life, THEN you can say 'But what about Western culture.'

And when that woman is identified and arrested simply because pictures of her topless in an empty street exist, and then the Canada folks are like "God, they might kill her, she's at least going to be severely physically harmed by this, and likely raped."

Until then, shut the fuck up when we are upset that SA is arresting a woman for wearing a skirt on an empty street

 

[kamineko]

So only people who live in SA can criticize their disgusting laws, got it

I think you just have to read Claude Levi-Strauss. That is the source of all moral authority

 

[Tonedeff]

So only people who live in SA can criticize their disgusting laws, got it

Lmao wow

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Am i living in SA ?

What is your point in all this?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

For you whataboutism folks:

When a woman goes topless in Bumfuck, Kentucky and it causes such national outrage that people in Canada are fearing for her life, THEN you can say 'But what about Western culture.'

And when that woman is identified and arrested simply because pictures of her topless in an empty street exist, and then the Canada folks are like "God, they might kill her, she's at least going to be severely physically harmed by this, and likely raped."

Until then, shut the fuck up when we are upset that SA is arresting a woman for wearing a skirt on an empty street

I don't think nobody in S-A is thinking that the woman will be raped, tortured or killed.
She will most likely be fined, like the women who bravely challenged the ban on women driving.

 

[Cartman86]

No, they use this issue to assert a perceived cultural/civilizational superiority.
One of the worst offender is the guy who posted an unrelated picture of women in burka on the beach. Like if the issue is with the garb (so the culture) and not the imposition by the state.

And i'm speaking about the culturalist approach of this issue. I'm calling it ridiculous myself.

I'm sure some will disagree given the context and Islamophobic rhetoric that is so common, but I think both government enforcement of clothing AND the burka itself as a cultural idea can be wrong. Clearly government enforcement is worse and in a free and truly feminist society women should be able to wear what they want (ignoring bank situations etc), but I think there are certainly arguments to be made (and are made) that the clothing itself in many instances is a product of a sexist idea. Same can be said for western clothing and our media culture as well of course. It's a tough area though. Where does empowerment become exploitation? Where does repression become personal choice?

 

[PlayALLtheGames]

If Ireland is jailing somebody for blasphemy, the fundamental principle behind those two is the same. You can't condemn one without condemning the other. Nobody is saying that they are the same thing but they are the product of the same principle:
"Women modesty should be law-enforced".

Honestly don't know any rational person who doesn't condemn all blasphemy laws but, fine, for blasphemy it's the same. What you neglect is that there's still a huge difference between how fundamental principles are practiced - per my previous post - and how that can be reasonably judged.

Your Amazonian tribe example doesn't hold up, and the claim that being jailed for a skirt is akin to public nudity, based on how different the "fundamental principle" behind them are, and how they're applied, also doesn't hold up.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

What is your point in all this?

My point is that you're constantly trying to distort my point since you have none.

 

[Media]

I don't think nobody in S-A is thinking that the woman will be raped, tortured or killed.
She will most likely be fined, like the women who bravely challenged the ban on women driving.

Oh like those Western women that go there for business and report they've been raped, only to be arrested and lashed? And sexually abused/raped by guards and shit?

Just a fine huh?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

It's not stupid at all when tattoos=organized criminals, to many people in Korea. What gives you the high moral ground in saying that this is stupid when obviously people would be discomforted with a man sporting bunch of dragon tattoos and sitting in front of your store all day long to scare away potential customers?

In private establishments you can make any rules you please, as long as it's not discriminatory towards something immutable (gender, sexual orientation, race, disabilities etc.). I won't care if a restaurant banned people who were exposing too many tattoos.

But in public? That is dumb. It's a person's body. They can do what they want it. If people are scared, then that's their issue. There is nothing inherently harmful about tattoos.

Miniskirt is even more ridiculous. There is nothing dangerous about that.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I'm sure some will disagree given the context and Islamophobic rhetoric that is so common, but I think both government enforcement of clothing AND the burka itself as a cultural idea can be wrong. Clearly government enforcement is worse and in a free and truly feminist society women should be able to wear what they want (ignoring bank situations etc), but I think there are certainly arguments to be made (and are made) that the clothing itself in many instances is a product of a sexist idea. Same can be said for western clothing and our media culture as well of course. It's a tough area though. Where does empowerment become exploitation? Where does repression become personal choice?

A simple criteria: a piece of clothing is a piece of clothing. The burqa become oppressive if it's imposed on a woman, like the skirt. If not, we're denying women free agency.

You cannot be oppressed by your own free agency, only other can by limiting your choices.

Honestly don't know any rational person who doesn't condemn all blasphemy laws but, fine, for blasphemy it's the same. What you neglect is that there's still a huge difference between how fundamental principles are practiced - per my previous post - and how that can be reasonably judged.

Your Amazonian tribe example doesn't hold up, and the claim that being jailed for a skirt is akin to public nudity, based on how different the "fundamental principle" behind them are, and how they're applied, also doesn't hold up.

I guess you're right just by saying so.

 

[Zyae]

The difference is only cultural, the principle behind it is the same:
Punishing women because they are not modest enough. And this is sexism.

No the difference isn't only cultural


Its Humane vs Inhumane. These woman in SA are being forced to basically hide themselves in their clothes. There is a hell of a big difference between the two


Is letting people have jobs vs forcing indentured servitude just a cultural difference?


We all get what you're trying to argue but its so misguided you dont see it. You are downplaying the degree of awfulness of womens dress code in SA. Not allowing women to walk around the streets with their exposed vaginas in western cultures and forcing women to wear what their wear in Saudi Arabia isnt even on the same plane of existence.

A simple criteria: a piece of clothing is a piece of clothing. The burqa become oppressive if it's imposed on a woman, like the skirt. If not, we're denying women free agency.

You cannot be oppressed by your own free agency, only other can by limiting your choices.



I guess you're right just by saying so.

What percentage of women would wear a burqa if it wasnt enforced and wasnt brain washed into them at a young age

vs

What percentage of women would wear jeans if it wasnt enforced


ask yourself that. Western clothing is practical for the most part. Forcing women to wear burqas is inhumane.

 

[KuwabaraTheMan]

This woman is a hero in my book for doing something like this in Saudi Arabia. I hope that she avoids any bodily harm as a result of this.

 

[Kisaya]

Terrifying. Fuck Saudia Arabia.