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[CharminUltra]

Man, fuck that shit. Incredibly backwards.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

No the difference isn't only cultural


Its Humane vs Inhumane. These woman in SA are being forced to basically hide themselves in their clothes. There is a hell of a big difference between the two


Is letting people have jobs vs forcing indentured servitude just a cultural difference?


We all get what you're trying to argue but its so misguided you dont see it. You are downplaying the degree of awfulness of womens dress code in SA. Not allowing women to walk around the streets with their exposed vaginas in western cultures and forcing women to wear what their wear in Saudi Arabia isnt even on the same plane of existence.

I don't know where i said that the difference was cultural, i said that we find the same underlying principle in western culture. I don't think that KSA grant the same level of personal liberties than the USA or France, and they just have a different culture. My whole point is that they don't and it have nothing to do with culture but with politics. The issue is that many people on this thread make a political issue a cultural/civilizational/religious one.

What percentage of women would wear a burqa if it wasnt enforced and wasnt brain washed into them at a young age

vs

What percentage of women would wear jeans if it wasnt enforced


ask yourself that. Western clothing is practical for the most part. Forcing women to wear burqas is inhumane.

Forcing yes, as it's inhumane to force women to get their niqab/burqa/hijab off.

You are assuming that afghan women use burka because they are forced or brainwashed. So anybody who don't adopt the western code of clothing have to be brainwashed or forced. On the other hand, adopting high heels and miniskirt is just "natural".

If we speak about talibans enforcing the niqab on afghans women, we agree. Otherwise, it's just a cultural garb. It's not oppression and they don't see it as such.

 

[burnjanso]

In private establishments you can make any rules you please, as long as it's not discriminatory towards something immutable (gender, sexual orientation, disabilities etc.). I won't care if a restaurant banned people who were exposing too many tattoos.

But in public? That is dumb. It's a person's body. They can do what they want it. Kf people are scared, then that's their issue. There is nothing harmful about tattoos.

No I'm not talking about private establishments banning people. As I said before, tattoos are related to organized crime to many Koreans. Sauna owner would be afraid to ban organized criminals from using Sauna, but would scare away other sauna users. Also, it was common tactic to force restaurant owners to pay money to gangs by intentionally staking out sidewalks in front of shops to scare away people.

 

[HStallion]

I don't know where i said that the difference was cultural, i said that we find the same underlying principle in western culture. I don't think that KSA grant the same level of personal liberties than the USA or France, and they just have a different culture. My whole point is that they don't and it have nothing to do with culture but with politics. The issue is that many people on this thread make a political issue a cultural/civilizational/religious one.

Politics and culture go hand in hand. The culture shapes the politics and vice versa. It's disingenuous to state otherwise.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

No I'm not talking about private establishments banning people. As I said before, tattoos are related to organized crime to many Koreans. Sauna owner would be afraid to ban organized criminals from using Sauna, but would scare away other sauna users. Also, it was common tactic to force restaurant owners to pay money to gangs by intentionally staking out sidewalks in front of shops to scare away people.

Are saunas public establishments there? I'm pretty sure jjimjilbangs are privately owned.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

My point is that you're constantly trying to distort my point since you have none.

What are you talking about?

People in thread: this is fucked up and terrible

You: yeah but what about USA?

 

[RustyNails]

Politics and culture go hand in hand. The culture shapes the politics and vice versa. It's disingenuous to state otherwise.

This isn't true in dictatorships.

 

[burnjanso]

Are saunas public establishments there? I'm pretty sure jjimjilbangs are privately owned.

No, but since many people use them, laws were placed to protect sauna owners from organized criminals potentially scaring away customers.

 

[HStallion]

This isn't true in dictatorships.

I'd say they are even more intertwined under dictatorships.

 

[yogloo]

Will someone please think of the poor men there.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I'd say they are even more intertwined under dictatorships.

Since the Saudi regime imposed a full-scale "morality reform" on the arab society during the wahhabi revolution, you're point fall totally flat. They fully forced a new morality and a new theology in the arabian peninsula, slaughtering all opponents.

The same can be said about Iran post-79. So revolutionary state building have nothing to do with culture. It's basically the invention of "new man" based on "pure ideology".

 

[RustyNails]

I'd say they are even more intertwined under dictatorships.

You're ridiculous. Dictatorships suppress expression of culture, media and art that is in any way shape or form critical of ruling government.

 

[Dangansona]

I just can't help see stuff like this and not think poorly of that part of the world.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I just can't help see stuff like this and not think poorly of that part of the world.

And then people still don't want to acknowledge that there is a culturalist approach of this issue and it's all about legit concern.

 

[HStallion]

You're ridiculous. Dictatorships suppress expression of culture, media and art that is in any way shape or form critical of ruling government.

The government in a dictatorship is the culture. They're basically one in the same. I wasn't talking about an original culture being subsumed by a new one but that they're basically intimately tied together under a dictatorship because of things like the cults of personality formed around the leaders.

 

[foxuzamaki]

Its not even like a sexy skirt or anything

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

The government in a dictatorship is the culture. They're basically one in the same. I wasn't talking about an original culture being subsumed by a new one but that they're basically intimately tied together under a dictatorship because of things like the cults of personality formed around the leaders.

Not at all. I don't think you know anything about KSA history. It's like saying that Talibans rule is the rule of the afghan culture. Or that Soviet Union was the reign of the russian culture.

It's the reign of an ideology.

 

[RustyNails]

Yeah that was kind of what I was getting at. The government in a dictatorship is the culture. They're basically one in the same. I wasn't talking about an original culture being subsumed by a new one but that they're basically intimately tied together under a dictatorship because of things like the cults of personality formed around the leaders.

It's not. It's a manufactured and cultivated program designed to promote the dictatorship. It's like saying North Koreans' culture is just leader worship. Have you read nothing about art revolution post Arab-Spring in affected countries?

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

Hope she left the country after this was filmed...


EDIT: Well, never mind...

 

[ramuh]

I'm just at a loss of words. How can we be so backward in the 21st century?

 

[HStallion]

It's not. It's a manufactured and cultivated program designed to promote the dictatorship. It's like saying North Koreans' culture is just leader worship. Have you read nothing about art revolution post Arab-Spring in affected countries?

I'd argue the culture in North Korea at this point is leader worship but we don't really see much of the day to day life to really know.

 

[CharminUltra]

Hope she left the country after this was filmed...


EDIT: Well, never mind...

The brave authorities managed to apprehend the criminal.

 

[BennyBlanco]

This is so fucked. Wonder if we'll ever even hear about what happens to her.

 

[RustyNails]

I'd argue the culture in North Korea at this point is leader worship but we don't really see much of the day to day life to really know.

You dont understand what culture is then.

Hint: It's not what the dictatorship says it is.

 

[AuthenticM]

I long for the day every man in that country who contributed to the systematic oppression of women is put in front of a brick wall and shot.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Do we know what's going to happen to her here?

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

No, but since many people use them, laws were placed to protect sauna owners from organized criminals potentially scaring away customers.

Okay, that's not good then. It should be up to the sauna owners if they want to serve tattooed customers or not. Government should not be telling adults what they can do with their bodies, regardless of culture. Getting fined for tattoos if you're not a part of organized crime is absurd, don't you think?

I don't think you've moved the needle on anyone on this miniskirt ban, especially since the logic doesn't apply here anyway. There is nothing scary or criminal about a miniskirt.

 

[CREMSteve]

Do we know what's going to happen to her here?

She's already been arrested. Let's hope that's as far as it goes. But based on past history of stories I've read about, her life may be in actual danger.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

It's Golden_Pigeon. To be very much expected at this point.

Wish people would stop engaging in his vile, indefensible, thread-derailing defense of Saudi Arabia misogyny. I put him on ignore long ago, but all the mass-quoting makes it useless.

Someone needs to tell Korean stars about them fines.

Because it's bullshit. Tattoos are not illegal in Korea, just socially frowned upon. In any case, even if they were... so what, it'd still be stupid and we'd be right to laugh at it, and also, it has nothing to do with the thread whatsoever and it's just another disgusting derailing whataboutism.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

Sorry fellows. Didn't realize pigeon was a shill for this type of shit :/

 

[rjinaz]

Okay, that's not good then. It should be up to the sauna owners if they want to serve tattooed customers or not. Government should not be telling adults what they can do with their bodies, regardless of culture. Getting fined for tattoos if you're not a part of organized crime is absurd, don't you think?

I don't think you've moved the needle on anyone on this miniskirt ban, especially since the logic doesn't apply here anyway. There is nothing scary or criminal about a miniskirt.

Not too mention it's hot as hell. It's practical.

 

[Lionel Richie]

She's already been arrested. Let's hope that's as far as it goes. But based on past history of stories I've read about, her life may be in actual danger.

That's my concern as well. It would be one thing if she was simply arrested and then quickly let go for this, it would still be indefensible in my eyes but I'd take that middle ground with the cultural relativists considering the main thing is that her body integrity is probably at risk here.

 

[texhnolyze]

A local proverb: "Wherever ground is stood on, the sky is hold high."

Meaning: Wherever we go, we must observe the local custom.

 

[marrec]

A local proverb: "Wherever ground is stood on, the sky is hold high."

Meaning: Wherever we go, we must observe the local custom.

A local proverb: "Unless that local custom is complete shit enforced by a bunch of jagoffs"

 

[texhnolyze]

A local proverb: "Unless that local custom is complete shit enforced by a bunch of jagoffs"

It's always the best to see things from a narrow perspective, huh?

 

[Lionel Richie]

A local proverb: "Wherever ground is stood on, the sky is hold high."

Meaning: Wherever we go, we must observe the local custom.

There's also the one that says sitting the same low, standing the same height. It's prettier and I wish it was applicable in SA.

 

[gutter_trash]

I don't think nobody in S-A is thinking that the woman will be raped, tortured or killed.
She will most likely be fined, like the women who bravely challenged the ban on women driving.

how in the blue hell do you know that she will be "safe" or is "safe"?

your apologist shtick is really gross

 

[marrec]

It's always the best to see things from a narrow perspective, huh?

It's always best to recognize when a shit "local custom" is shit.

 

[rjinaz]

It's always the best to see things from a narrow perspective, huh?

Thinking it is shit for a woman getting arrested for wearing a dress in the scorching heat is not a narrow perspective.

 

[Chmpocalypse]

And then people still don't want to acknowledge that there is a culturalist approach of this issue and it's all about legit concern.

There is no legit concern. There is only repression based on mysoginy.

 

[marrec]

There is no legit concern. There is only repression based on mysoginy.

Legit concern that women are going to realize some form of autonomy I guess.

 

[rjinaz]

There is no legit concern. There is only repression based on mysoginy.

It also has me thinking. SA knows what culture is like pretty much everywhere else in the world. It's not like they are sheltered in that this is all they know. They know the world at large views this as unacceptable but they just don't care. To imply to me it's all about culture seems disingenuous at best. It's about control.

 

[FrenchMovieTheme]

A local proverb: "Wherever ground is stood on, the sky is hold high."

Meaning: Wherever we go, we must observe the local custom.

Isn't that what this discussion is about? That the "local custom" is an embarrassment to humanity? Or is this where we blame the victim (yes, she is a victim) for wearing a mini skirt?

 

[texhnolyze]

Thinking it is shit for a woman getting arrested for wearing a dress in the scorching heat is not a narrow perspective.

Because that's how it works in that region? Can we, as outsiders, at least respect their laws?

That's what I mean by bringing up that proverb. We should look up on information regarding the region before visiting any unknown place.

Isn't that what this discussion is about? That the "local custom" is an embarrassment to humanity? Or is this where we blame the victim (yes, she is a victim) for wearing a mini skirt?

Kissing and maybe having sex in public might be the norm for you, but in other parts of the world, it's an embarrassment to humanity.

You can't have a universal 'custom', it varies depending on where you live.

 

[marrec]

Because that's how it works in that region? Can we, as outsiders, at least respect their laws?

That's what I mean by bringing up that proverb. We should look up on information regarding the region before visiting any unknown place.

Why respect a shit law?

 

[gutter_trash]

cultures change, cultures evolve

this Conservative argument of "culture" is bullshit because history is proven that cultures evolve and change

some parts of Spain still have Bullsfighting but we all know it's animal cruelty. Many people want it stopped except for the "Conservatives" who have warped view of freezing everything in time to preserve the worst cultural aspect

Saudi Arabia is a back assed ultra Conservative shit hole of a dump that decides to repress 50% of their population as "property".

the culture argument is bullshit

 

[rjinaz]

Because that's how it works in that region? Can we, as outsiders, at least respect their laws?

That's what I mean by bringing up that proverb. We should look up on information regarding the region before visiting any unknown place.

Isn't she a local? Maybe I'm wrong but either way, I mean obviously visitors better respect their laws or face the consequences but that doesn't mean anybody should defend what happens because a woman wore a skirt in hot weather.

 

[Lionel Richie]

Because that's how it works in that region? Can we, as outsiders, at least respect their laws?

That's what I mean by bringing up that proverb. We should look up on information regarding the region before visiting any unknown place.

Friend I understand what you mean. Problem is that many in this thread believe this is a draconian law and that Saudi Arabia is overall a pretty shit country to be a woman right now and we'd like to see it changed. We're voicing our opinions on the matter. No law is above criticism.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Because that's how it works in that region? Can we, as outsiders, at least respect their laws?

That's what I mean by bringing up that proverb. We should look up on information regarding the region before visiting any unknown place.

She is a local as far as we know, so what you're saying doesn't apply. It would still be stupid either way.

It also has me thinking. SA knows what culture is like pretty much everywhere else in the world. It's not like they are sheltered in that this is all they know. They know the world at large views this as unacceptable but they just don't care. To imply to me it's all about culture seems disingenuous at best. It's about control.

Wahabbism/religion. They think they're right and everyone else is wrong. That is pretty much the story of how Wahabbism started.

 

[Sinfamy]

Because that's how it works in that region? Can we, as outsiders, at least respect their laws?

That's what I mean by bringing up that proverb. We should look up on information regarding the region before visiting any unknown place.



Kissing and maybe having sex in public might be the norm for you, but in other parts of the world, it's an embarrassment to humanity.

You can't have a universal 'custom', it varies depending on where you live.

What's with all this misdirecting crap?
I'm sorry, but sometimes a culture, or parts of it is objectively and undeniably shit, simple as that, enough with the cultural relativism, it's nothing but virtue signaling hogwash.
Should we ignore Chechnya's persecution of gays because it's their culture?
Is FGM okay now because it's part of their culture?
On and on, a million examples.
There ARE universal customs.