Support NeoGAF

[Angry Grimace]

LFR loot system doesn't work well at all when you group with 25 random people each time. Guess I could try to find a guild that runs it on Sunday or Monday while mine is in hiatus.

It can come around though, I pulled a ring, trinket and wrist in two bosses.

Frost is still the top DPS spec, actually.

It isn't, actually, Unholy is higher parsing because they buffed Unholy might to 25%, but it's within a few percentage points.

 

[Azwethinkweiz]

It isn't, actually, Unholy is higher parsing because they buffed Unholy might to 25%, but it's within a few percentage points.

They actually parse very close to each other, and Frost has the bonus of not being dick terrible on fights with adds.

 

[Angry Grimace]

They actually parse very close to each other, and Frost has the bonus of not being dick terrible on fights with adds.

Unholy isn't "dick terrible" on fights with adds. You're taking a relative statement and turning it into an absolute.

 

[Azwethinkweiz]

Unholy isn't "dick terrible" on fights with adds. You're taking a relative statement and turning it into an absolute.

Ok, Unholy is considerably worse than DW Frost on fights with adds. On the flip side, it's marginally better, if better at all, on single target fights.

 

[Number45]

I'm doing the Firelands quests for the first time. I've been through a load of quests in Hyjal (culminating in me saving

Spoiler

Thrall

and witnessing his betrothal), but I've noticed a break in the quest chain a couple of times (where I've ran out of quests and had to fly around/look at WH to find out where to continue) that wasn't apparent in the other Cata zones at all.

The only thing I can think of is that I need to complete dailies to carry on with the quest chain - can anyone confirm that's the case? Usually when I see a blue ! I don't bother, but perhaps that's where I'm going wrong this time out?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Ok, Unholy is considerably worse than DW Frost on fights with adds. On the flip side, it's marginally better, if better at all, on single target fights.

It doesn't look marginal at all to me given that Dragon Soul gear is somewhere in between these two charts and the difference becomes larger as you approach BiS gear.

 

[Entropia]

It doesn't look marginal at all to me given that Dragon Soul gear is somewhere in between these two charts and the difference becomes larger as you approach BiS gear.

Sorry, but what?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sorry, but what?

I'm not entirely sure where your confusion is setting in.

If you were following the conversation, it's quite self-explanatory with little to no inferential logic required.

 

[Entropia]

Particularly, the first set of numbers. Is this some sim garbage?

 

[Kaper]

No balance druid on the chart = fail chart.

 

[TheYanger]

Balance druid is off the bottom there. That's outdated though, Frost dw with souldrinkers is the highest simming as well, then masterfrost, then UH, then traditional DW with non-souldrinkers. Unholy is also balls awful to play, leading to lower performance relative to a sim (frost has this issue as well, but unholy is GODAWFUL quality of life).

Basic answer: Frost is still better, I'm 99% sure of this. Unholy is dick to play.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Hope the whole Vashj'ir zone isn't still broken when I log on later today.

The quest where you battle the invading Naga at the start and have one capture you is in an endless loop for many people or everyone.

 

[thatbox]

Hope the whole Vashj'ir zone isn't still broken when I log on later today.

The quest where you battle the invading Naga at the start and have one capture you is in an endless loop for many people or everyone.

It's a subtle hint to go to Hyjal instead.

 

[Kaper]

It's a subtle hint to go to Hyjal instead.

Agreed. Vashj'ir is only worth it as a druid, and even then it's bad.

 

[Number45]

So I've done all of the dailies available to me in Hyjal/MF and I still don't have any more quests to pick up. Not sure where to go from here (or if I'm done).

 

[C.Dark.DN]

It's a subtle hint to go to Hyjal instead.

DON'T TELL ME WHAT I CAN'T DO.

I preferred Vashj'ir over Hyjal on last 3 of 5/6 toons I leveled to 85.

But, I don't think I had 310% on any of them that early like I do for this warlock in the GAF guild.

 

[Naka]

It doesn't look marginal at all to me given that Dragon Soul gear is somewhere in between these two charts and the difference becomes larger as you approach BiS gear.

Looks like it's time to try fire again. I need to get some more crit gear to make it actually viable. I optimized my current gear for fire and ran it through SimC and it showed that it was a very negligible difference if I specced fire. I miss fire though, Arcane is so dull...

 

[Alex]

Vashjir is my favorite zone. Love the music and visuals there, some good quests too, like the Naga ones and some of the other strays.

Hyjal on the other hand is like... everything I hate about Warcraft in general wrapped into one zone. Not just the bland quests and design but the horrible crayola elf forest motif and dragons and all their crappy lore. All of it! I am anti-Hyjal.

 

[Angry Grimace]

No balance druid on the chart = fail chart.

The bottom of the chart doesn't appear.

 

[Azwethinkweiz]

It doesn't look marginal at all to me given that Dragon Soul gear is somewhere in between these two charts and the difference becomes larger as you approach BiS gear.

These charts are for what fight?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Balance druid is off the bottom there. That's outdated though, Frost dw with souldrinkers is the highest simming as well, then masterfrost, then UH, then traditional DW with non-souldrinkers. Unholy is also balls awful to play, leading to lower performance relative to a sim (frost has this issue as well, but unholy is GODAWFUL quality of life).

Basic answer: Frost is still better, I'm 99% sure of this. Unholy is dick to play.

*shrug* If you say so, I have no reason to not believe you. I don't see what's wrong with Unholy to play, though. The anti-Unholy reasoning I keep hearing in response seems vague.

These charts are for what fight?

I don't know, I didn't run the sim myself, you'd have to ask SimulationCraft.

Again, if Yanger says Frost is better under some new calculation, I have no reason to disbelieve him.

 

[Bisnic]

I too like Vashjir for its music(perfect) and visual(very cool and well done). I dont mind swimming for quests, especially when you swim so fast and have a great mount.

By the way, did they ever fixed the last quest in the submarine where npcs would disappear and you would start to lose your breath? It was still there a few months ago...

 

[Azwethinkweiz]

*shrug* If you say so, I have no reason to not believe you. I don't see what's wrong with Unholy to play, though. The anti-Unholy reasoning I keep hearing in response seems vague.

It's only anti because Frost is comparable or better in most fights, and is much easier to play. There are a lot of things you need to do as Unholy just to keep up and it's just not as fun. If someone wants to play unholy though, they are free to do so. I'm sure only the most anal of top tier guilds will crucify them for it.

 

[idlewild_]

These charts are for what fight?

They're for a theoretical Patchwerk type fight, so they will not actually match up to any fight in this tier

Spoiler

or any fight in game really since patchwerk would not stay alive long enough to hit this theoretical number

 

[TheYanger]

*shrug* If you say so, I have no reason to not believe you. I don't see what's wrong with Unholy to play, though. The anti-Unholy reasoning I keep hearing in response seems vague.


I don't know, I didn't run the sim myself, you'd have to ask SimulationCraft.

Again, if Yanger says Frost is better under some new calculation, I have no reason to disbelieve him.

Initial calculations hadn't factored in the Souldrinker as bis, and was using hand of morchok. Souldrinker is RIDICULOUSLY good, to the point that an LFR version of souldrinker is only beaten by the 410 version of morchok, and the normal version beats anything besides the heroic one. There is also the "Masterfrost" spec/playstyle that relies on howling blast spam and gaming your runic empowerment procs, that one sims higher as well, but it's also dick in a can to try and play imo.

The problems with unholy are almost entirely quality of life, on paper it looks good, in practice it's impossible to play it, the amount of haste you have in gear now is absurd and you just sit there with basically all your runes up all the time, this also makes the 2 piece a really shitty set bonus for unholy (It's got the same issues with frost, but with unholy it's already almost impossible to spend your resources). The solution of course is to reforge OUT of haste until you get to a playable level, but it's hundreds of haste you have to drop, which is kind of like cutting yourself off at the knees since haste is the only secondary stat worth much of anything to unholy - Basically to make ti playable you have to intentionally cost yourself dps. Now, unholy when it works right is a lot of fun, lower gear levels at the start of the expansion before they nerfed coefficients, were a BLAST. But now? It just feels terrible. I tried it a few weeks before the patch to try and get used to it, thinking it may be better in DS, and it was just awful. I knew right then and there that I'd almost rather not raid than play unholy in current gear. Thankfully frost looks better than anticipated so all is well.

 

[Ryaaan14]

LOLWUT@SUBTLETY DPS

 

[C.Dark.DN]

It's a patchwork style sim.

You download the program, copy the profile from the website, and run it on the default settings pretty much.

Sub rogue profile:

#!./simc

deathknight=Death_Knight_Frost_1h_T12H
origin="http://chardev.org/?profile=254241"
level=85
race=goblin
position=back
role=attack
use_pre_potion=1
professions=jewelcrafting=525/engineering=525
talents=http://www.wowhead.com/talent#deathknight-203200000000000000003133000223311201230103000000000000000000
glyphs=horn_of_winter/blood_tap/obliterate/frost_strike/howling_blast
actions=flask,type=titanic_strength
actions+=/food,type=beer_basted_crocolisk
actions+=/presence,choose=unholy
actions+=/army_of_the_dead
actions+=/snapshot_stats
actions+=/use_item,name=elementium_deathplate_gauntlets,time>=10
actions+=/golemblood_potion,if=!in_combat|buff.bloodlust.react|target.time_to_die<=60
actions+=/auto_attack
actions+=/pillar_of_frost
actions+=/blood_tap,if=death.cooldown_remains>2.0
actions+=/raise_dead,time>=15
actions+=/outbreak,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<=2|dot.blood_plague.remains<=2
actions+=/howling_blast,if=dot.frost_fever.remains<=2
actions+=/plague_strike,if=dot.blood_plague.remains<=2
actions+=/obliterate,if=death>=1&frost>=1&unholy>=1
actions+=/obliterate,if=(death=2&frost=2)|(death=2&unholy=2)|(frost=2&unholy=2)
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>=110
actions+=/howling_blast,if=buff.rime.react
actions+=/obliterate,if=(death=2|unholy=2|frost=2)
actions+=/frost_strike,if=runic_power>=100
actions+=/obliterate
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon,if=target.time_to_die<=45
actions+=/frost_strike
actions+=/howling_blast
actions+=/empower_rune_weapon,if=(blood.cooldown_remains+frost.cooldown_remains+unholy.cooldown_remains)>8
actions+=/horn_of_winter
actions+=/rocket_barrage
head=elementium_deathplate_helmet,heroic=1,type=plate,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=3057armor_400str_689sta_311haste_239hit,reforge=hit_mastery,gems=reverberating_shadowspirit_40str_30str,enchant=60str_35mastery
neck=necklace_of_fetishes,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=256str_384sta_188crit_142hit,reforge=crit_haste
shoulders=elementium_deathplate_pauldrons,heroic=1,type=plate,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=2822armor_322str_513sta_238haste_191mastery,gems=40str,enchant=50str_25crit
chest=breastplate_of_shifting_visions,heroic=1,type=plate,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=3762armor_420str_689sta_301mastery_266haste,gems=40str_20str_20hit_20str,enchant=20all
waist=uncrushable_belt_of_fury,heroic=1,type=plate,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=2116armor_240str_513sta_342mastery_153exp,reforge=mastery_haste,gems=40str_40str
legs=elementium_deathplate_greaves,heroic=1,type=plate,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=3292armor_420str_689sta_322exp_236haste,reforge=exp_mastery,gems=40str_20str_20hit_20str,enchant=55crit_190ap
feet=arachnaflame_treads,heroic=1,type=plate,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=2586armor_322str_513sta_228crit_208haste,reforge=crit_mastery,gems=40str_10str,enchant=50haste
wrists=earthcrack_bracers,heroic=1,type=plate,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=1646armor_256str_384sta_158haste_178crit,reforge=crit_mastery,enchant=50str
hands=elementium_deathplate_gauntlets,heroic=1,type=plate,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=2351armor_322str_513sta_238hit_191mastery,reforge=hit_haste,gems=40str_10str,enchant=synapse_springs,addon=50str
finger1=alysrazors_band,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=256str_384sta_171exp_124haste,reforge=exp_mastery,gems=67str_10str
finger2=obsidian_signet_of_the_avengers,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=236str_384sta_195crit_110hit,reforge=crit_haste,gems=67str_10str
trinket1=heart_of_rage,heroic=1,ilevel=372,quality=epic,stats=363exp,reforge=exp_haste,equip=onattackhit_2178str_10%_20dur_100cd
trinket2=vessel_of_acceleration,heroic=1,ilevel=397,quality=epic,stats=458str,equip=onattackcrit_93crit_5stack_20dur
back=bladed_flamewrath_cover,ilevel=378,quality=epic,stats=695armor_227str_341sta_173haste_115exp,enchant=65crit
main_hand=obsidium_cleaver,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=197str_296sta_139mastery_119hit,reforge=mastery_haste,enchant=rune_of_razorice,weapon=axe_2.60speed_1133min_2105max
off_hand=obsidium_cleaver,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=197str_296sta_139mastery_119hit,reforge=mastery_haste,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader,weapon=axe_2.60speed_1133min_2105max
ranged=relic_of_the_elemental_lords,heroic=1,ilevel=391,quality=epic,stats=145str_217sta_94crit_98haste,reforge=crit_mastery,gems=67str
# Gear Summary
# gear_strength=5629
# gear_agility=20
# gear_stamina=6825
# gear_intellect=20
# gear_spirit=20
# gear_attack_power=190
# gear_expertise_rating=783
# gear_hit_rating=817
# gear_crit_rating=676
# gear_haste_rating=2501
# gear_mastery_rating=1582
# gear_armor=22327
# meta_gem=reverberating_shadowspirit
# tier12_2pc_melee=1
# tier12_4pc_melee=1
# hands=elementium_deathplate_gauntlets,heroic=1,enchant=synapse_springs
# main_hand=obsidium_cleaver,heroic=1,weapon=axe_2.60speed_1133min_2105max,enchant=rune_of_razorice
# off_hand=obsidium_cleaver,heroic=1,weapon=axe_2.60speed_1133min_2105max,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader

You can generate a profile like that of your character.

Settings:

Tho, I'm getting 39067 instead of 39253 on a Sub Rogue so the setting may not be 100% default:

 

[Ryaaan14]

That is a nifty little app.

/Mac user :_(

 

[idlewild_]

LOLWUT@SUBTLETY DPS

sub is quite good if you can play it correctly and and encounter allows for it. Unfortunately this tier is basically dominated by combat due to encounter mechanics, but sub is pretty good for...morchok, lol.

 

[Angry Grimace]

They're for a theoretical Patchwerk type fight, so they will not actually match up to any fight in this tier

Spoiler

or any fight in game really since patchwerk would not stay alive long enough to hit this theoretical number

Um, Ultraxion?

LOLWUT@SUBTLETY DPS

Subtlety is the best DPS rogue spec in theory. It's in theory because it's too complex to actually play it that well so nobody does. Why put in 5 times as much effort as assassination (assuming you're using non-Legendary or Pre-Legendary daggers)

 

[Ryaaan14]

sub is quite good if you can play it correctly and and encounter allows for it. Unfortunately this tier is basically dominated by combat, but sub is pretty good for...morchok, lol.

I just don't get where the dmg comes from. I only use Sub spec for PvP and I really just started with it. It seems to me Subtlety only shines in PvP because you sacrifice huge DPS for CC. I have only really played Assassination in PvE since I started playing, but to me it just makes sense that Assassination would pull better numbers than Combat, let alone Subtlety.

I guess I'll have to get myself up to date later on tonight :_(

 

[Miletius]

They're for a theoretical Patchwerk type fight, so they will not actually match up to any fight in this tier

Spoiler

or any fight in game really since patchwerk would not stay alive long enough to hit this theoretical number

Ultraxion is the closest we'll get to that, probably for a long time. I enjoy that type of fight sometimes.

 

[idlewild_]

Um, Ultraxion?

positional attacks don't work, warriors get extra rage, fight assumes 100% uptime...close, but no.

edit: unholy also gets a little extra rp, but based on your guys convo just now that doesn't really matter, lol

 

[Angry Grimace]

positional attacks don't work, warriors get extra rage, fight assumes 100% uptime...close, but no.

Ultraxion can't dodge or parry.

Edit: I see what you did there (post originally said, "can't attack from the back")

 

[idlewild_]

Ultraxion can't dodge or parry.

Edit: I see what you did there

yeah, just clarifying what i meant by 'can't attack from behind', it wasn't about the dodge/parry

 

[Angry Grimace]

yeah, just clarifying what i meant by 'can't attack from behind', it wasn't about the dodge/parry

Just saying, "It's not Patchwerk" doesn't invalidate everything that chart might or might not stand for, though.

I don't think that statement has much theoretical or rhetorical value without some kind of hypothesis of the effect of lower uptime on the boss. My assumption is that they don't sim it that way not because it's impossible to change uptime, rage generated, etc., but because it's the only "fair" way to sim it.

 

[idlewild_]

I just don't get where the dmg comes from.

Find Weakness

 

[idlewild_]

Just saying, "It's not Patchwerk" doesn't invalidate everything that chart might or might not stand for, though. Just saying that doesn't have any theoretical or rhetorical value without some kind of hypothesis of the effect of lower uptime on the boss. They don't sim it that way because it's impossible to change uptime, rage generated, etc., they sim it that way because it's the only "fair" way to sim it.

that's fine, but it has little to no bearing on what classes are actually good this tier. according to that chart, hunters are the "4th" best, warriors and shadow priests are mediocre, etc. etc. It's great for comparing specs on a fight that doesn't really exist.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Balance druid is off the bottom there. That's outdated though, Frost dw with souldrinkers is the highest simming as well, then masterfrost, then UH, then traditional DW with non-souldrinkers. Unholy is also balls awful to play, leading to lower performance relative to a sim (frost has this issue as well, but unholy is GODAWFUL quality of life).

Basic answer: Frost is still better, I'm 99% sure of this. Unholy is dick to play.

That 46832 dps sim has two Souldrinkers:

main_hand=souldrinker,heroic=1,ilevel=416,quality=epic,stats=249str_373sta,enchant=rune_of_razorice,weapon=sword_2.60speed_1431min_2658max
off_hand=souldrinker,heroic=1,ilevel=416,quality=epic,stats=249str_373sta,enchant=rune_of_the_fallen_crusader,weapon=sword_2.60speed_1431min_2658max

When I run it I get 46776 dps.

When I run main_hand=nokaled_the_elements_of_death off_hand=souldrinker: 47530 dps

Masterforst 2x Souldrinker: 46737 dps

2h Unholy:49616 dps

 

[C.Dark.DN]

2nd delay

Wont be able to play until Saturday morning after tonight.

 

[Angry Grimace]

2nd delay

Wont be able to play until Saturday morning after tonight.

How bizarre is it that Blizzard got the realms up on time for 4.3's launch with little to no bugs, but can't pull off this Arena maintenance hotfix

 

[Ryaaan14]

Ultraxion is the closest we'll get to that, probably for a long time. I enjoy that type of fight sometimes.

Fuck yeah. Saurfang was one of my faves for DPS benchmarks.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

up

 

[vilmer_]

Oh shit :lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCOfOvj7A9k

 

[Tamanon]

Fuck yeah. Saurfang was one of my faves for DPS benchmarks.

I hated Saurfang's numbers because I was one of the kiters.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Hopefully I can grab another Hand of Morchok since my offhand for Frost is a (lol) Zulian Slicer.

Had no luck with Renji's hentai sword or the Dragonshrine Scepter either.

 

[yanhero]

I just don't get where the dmg comes from. I only use Sub spec for PvP and I really just started with it. It seems to me Subtlety only shines in PvP because you sacrifice huge DPS for CC. I have only really played Assassination in PvE since I started playing, but to me it just makes sense that Assassination would pull better numbers than Combat, let alone Subtlety.

I guess I'll have to get myself up to date later on tonight :_(

You are waay out of date. For single target dps, subtlety is the best, combat 2nd, assassination 3rd. For cleave fights, combat owns all specs in the game. Assassination is only good for aoe fights. Take a look at worldoflogs or raidbots for a general idea.

 

[markot]

Sub does huge single target dmg, its awesome ^_^

Firstly you get +combo points from other peoples crits, which is awesome. Secondly you keep recuperate up with its +energy thingy. Secondly2 you keep em bleeding.

I only recently hit 85 with my rogue, its fun. Still so damn hard to take down heals though >.<; I can mess em up so they cant heal others for abit, but other then that my dps isnt high enough.... yet....

I like that its viable in pve, even lowly 5 mans. Mainly because I think combat is boring and Ass is too kinda, although less boring then combat. Sub is the only one that feels roguey!

 

[markot]

Wow is $5 on the blizz store FYI!

Also so is the Panda Monk pet >.< Id get it if it still game some of the proceeds to charity.

 

[Einchy]

Sucks being Fury this patch, pretty much everyone is being forced to switch to Arms.