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World of Warcraft |OT3|
- Thread starter charlequin
- Start date
The Lamonster
Member
The game is better than ever right now. However, the community is deader than ever, but that will change when the next expansion is released sometime in Oct-Dec.
Yeah, back when I raided in BC, we were stuck doing mostly Kara and Gruul for a long time trying to gear everyone up. Once the attunement stuff got lifted, we started doing The Eye and some of SSC.
But now older raids are kinda trivialized now due to the way stuff works now. There's no point in running raids like Bastion of Twilight and Blacking Descent when you can get equivalent or better gear in the HoT Heroic dungeons. (Though I suppose you'd still run them for achievements.)
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
I don't know about other people (and I didn't experience BC first hand in it's heyday), but I would prefer this. Just having more content at launch, or have it released quicker, but having the difficulty set so that it's more gated. As opposed to the massive power boosts to everyone with each tier, making the previous one effectively obsolete.
But that's coming from someone who would start playing at launch for an expansion pack. You have to consider the people who hop in and out of the game, and there should be something to accommodate them, but I don't think everyone should be shoved into the latest stuff even if they didn't do the old stuff. Maybe one all-around power boost per expansion in the X.2 patch (and then one late into the X.3 patch before the next expansion? If they're only going to have 3 major content patches per Xpac now.)
I don't know what would be best, but there's got to be a better way than what happens now. This is a more widespread problem though and not just contained to individual expansions. You've got all the obsolete (aside from a few runs for achievements and transmog) old raids now. The content is still good! But people can't really appreciate it. BC and Wrath Heroics are probably even less utilized. There should be some kind of reward system or something for doing old stuff. Maybe weekly quests to do old raids that reward you with something interesting/fun. The real tragedy is that even if you do some of the obsolete content, you'll completely overpower it. I don't understand why they refuse to give in to people demand for classic/BC/Wrath servers. They'd just need a few - or or two of each type per region.
Yeah, the BC/Wrath Heroics really suffer since outside of quests, it's damn near pointless to run them since you're getting better gear elsewhere at the level you can get access to them.
Like I'm leveling my DK right now, and while I can run the BC heroics, there's little incentive to since I get less EXP and the gear is nowhere near the level I can get from Northrend quests or the first dungeon or two there.
BC also solved this with badges, this is where badges originated, and the current badge system would also serve the same purpose.
PUT IN BADGE GEAR. Let that be the nerfs people need. You can fill in slots with badge gear and upgrade your average power level to somewhere between the previous tier and the 'newest' tier by getting, i dunno about half of your slots filled in. This worked in BC. it worked flawlessly. When ZA hit, tier 5 level badge gear was available and people who were having trouble progressing got a big boost. When Sunwell hit this happened again. You could actually gear up entirely with badges in every slot iirc, if not all then ALMOST all slots. Even weapons. They weren't better than equivilent ilevel drops from the zones, because they were itemized slightly worse, but if you were in say, SSC/TK, getting a black temple tier weapon from badges, even if not completely optimal compared to actual BT stuff, was a huge boost in power. They could even nerf zones, AFTER the next zone is out.
RoninChaos
Member
I think transmog gave my server a bit of a new life. People are running old shit just for fun. Even if they'll blow through the content, it gives people a chance to see the old stuff, and that's pretty cool. LFR has been good too, apparently. I see more people with more raid gear than I ever have.
FieryBalrog
Member
The speed of updates in this game is ludicrously bad.
I remember when they told us Cata would have more frequent, but smaller updates.
What a joke that ended up being :/
LAUGHTREY
Modesty becomes a woman
They pulled that shit for 4.1 right? They didn't put in a raid just ZA/ZG and said they were gonna do more with less.
That's worse than the TOC shit in my opinion. TOC was a short, bad raid that you did 4 times a week for 4 months.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
What made TOC so bad especially was that Ulduar wasn't out that long and plenty of people were still progressing through it as it was so long (and is at the very least in the top 3 raids of the game, if you don't consider the best). Even if you were a top tier guild, you probably didn't have Algalon or Zero Lights on farm at that point, and if you did, you still probably wanted (or at least could have stood) some more time to get mounts/legendaries/other gear (nobody would have had 25 Mimiron's Heads at that point, let alone 10.) Going from one of the greatest raids in the game to one of the worst was pretty crap. They really should've sat on 3.2 for another month at least.
They said it before that, and when 4.1 hit. It's the reason I almost always take a leave of absence after waiting 6 months for a patch that won't come till the next expansion.
Barely anyone finished Ulduar 25, and 1 guild on my server defeated Algalon when ToC came out. I think only like a month before it hit, my 10-man group got realm first drakes, but honestly, a majority of people had not finished it. I totally agree with you.
Check your PM.
questionmark
Member
Do people have to be from the same region to use Scroll of Resurrection?
Yes. US to US. EU to EU.
I remember when they said there will going to be multiple raids per tier, another lie.
Can you cancel the annual pass for WoW without losing access to Diablo 3? I've been barely playing WoW for the last month or 2 and feel like i'll just start playing again when the expansion will release, but i dont want to lose Diablo 3 by cancelling it.
Negative, they'll take D3 and your mount. Also if they ever do another annual pass you won't be able to participate. Still a load of bullshit you can't use the battle.net bucks to pay for your WoW sub.
Figured they wouldnt allow it. Of course they had to release 0 new content for almost the whole duration of the annual pass.
It was a trap and i took the bait.
There have been some improvements but I generally hate how progression has turned out post-BC. Any raid that's currently released becomes the only tier that everybody runs. And you just beat that content to death. Beat normal? Do it again in heroic. Can't beat it? Blizz will nerf it for you. Any previous content becomes worthless. For example, I never got to experience Ulduar, because I stopped playing right before it released. I would have prefered to find a guild at my current level of progression and move my way up to the current content, instead of skipping everything previous.
But those days are gone and it's partly Blizz's fault. They've created a bunch of impatient, instant-gratification players. See what happened when they tried to roll back the heroic difficulty of 5-mans in Cata. How long did that last?
Blizzard's problem is Wow is old, raids/instances are having shorter self life because as much as they try to innovate, the same structure for the raids has been there for 8 years, and you are dealing with a lot more competition now, not so much in the MMO world but more the other forms of online gaming/ipad gaming etc/even Diablo 3 itself. And the thing is, it's much easier to form a Diablo 3 online group to then form a competent raid in Wow.
I'll give them credit, at least they're trying new stuff with Pandaria with the challenge modes/scenarios/pet battles and all that stuff, were the party formation is no where as restrictive as raids are.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
The Naxx-Ulduar transition was beautiful really. Naxx 25 was easy enough to PUG with a well-organized group (as well as Sarth 10/25 - not so much Eye of Eternity until later in the expac, even then probably not on 25, only 10.) So people could gear up for Ulduar with PUG Naxx/Sarth/VoA runs, in addition to badge gear, and at least get an Ulduar 10 PUG if you weren't in a guild. (Ulduar 25 was never really puggable during Wrath - sadly, ToC 25 was. Very much so after ICC released.)
People still ran Naxx 25 concurrently with Ulduar to fill out some missing slots and get extra badges. At least in PUGs on the weekends or some such, if not with mains, Alts to gear up (as they wouldn't be in guild runs of Ulduar), as a raiding guild probably wouldn't have enough time to fit Naxx (long raid) into the schedule when working on progression Ulduar (also long raid.)
A lot of it was because Naxx 25 loot was competitive with Ulduar 10 loot, especially better itemized stuff and tier bonuses before you would have T8. I still think combining 10/25 loot and lockouts was a mistake. Sure it was kind of overinflated in the amount of gear around with 10, 10 heroic, 25, 25 heroic when we got to ICC at least, but it worked in terms of progression. There has to be something better than the current system to provide a balanced experience for everyone. Cataclysm pretty much killed 25 man raiding, and I'm sad about that.
eudaemonic
Member
In my guild Firelands was tossed aside like a second marriage that just found Mrs. Right #3. I've wanted to go back and work on it more (because I was too busy during it to really focus on raiding at the time) but no one is interested. The new stuff is easy enough for them for better gear and Firelands holds no more interest even though we never got the staff for anyone.
Yup. It never used to be like that, and while only some percentage of people ever saw sunwell, surely that's better than everyone being literally PUSHED through every tier of content and having it spoon-fed? There's nothing to strive for anymore. I'd argue they waste far more development time on content that everyone plows through immediately than they ever did on tiered content that not everyone finished.
Completion rates are not indicative of people actually having things to do in the game, which is their issue with how they interpret the numbers. If everyone completes everything, it just means we're sitting around with NOTHING to do until the next patch. That shit is fucking stupid. Even from a business perspective, I highly doubt many if any people cancelled their subs because they NEVER RAN OUT OF CONTENT and didn't get to see Naxx or Sunwell. I know absolute shitloads of people that unsub for entire patch cycles now though because they know they don't have anything to do until the next one hits.
Completion rates are not indicative of people actually having things to do in the game, which is their issue with how they interpret the numbers. If everyone completes everything, it just means we're sitting around with NOTHING to do until the next patch. That shit is fucking stupid. Even from a business perspective, I highly doubt many if any people cancelled their subs because they NEVER RAN OUT OF CONTENT and didn't get to see Naxx or Sunwell. I know absolute shitloads of people that unsub for entire patch cycles now though because they know they don't have anything to do until the next one hits.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
You're probably right (not that we have data ourselves to back it up), but more people probably quite because they "finish" content because Blizzard pushes people through it (either by making it easy, or by nerfing it. However I did think the ICC buff was tasteful enough and didn't make things too easy there - Lich King (and a few others) was/is still a mechanically complex fight, the buff wasn't the end all of it.) than people who quit because stuff is too difficult, and they can't progress. At least when facing a brick wall, you can keep throwing yourself at it and eventually win through attrition, and it's something to do, rather than strolling through a piece of tissue paper and waiting around twiddling your thumbs for the next one to appear.
Realistically at this point, WoW needs gating on (raid) content with the overall skill level of the playerbase and the access to resources people have. And it's better if it's not artificial, but just comes naturally from the difficulty. It's that or get more content out faster, which Blizzard doesn't seem capable of doing.
That's my perspective, at least from a more hardcore player and (former) raider. I don't know how much/if I'll raid in Mists, but I still appreciate the difficulty being there even if I don't make use of it. LFR is there and enough for those who just want a casual taste.
People quit for numerous reasons though, and I don't think even Blizzard has hard data (the unsubscription survey, while providing data, isn't going to be 100% accurate.) So it's sort of speculation on everyone's part.
RPGCrazied
Member
Apparently you can't do much with battle.net balance. All you can do is use it for some WoW services and digital games. wtf? Should be able to use it at their store and buy the mounts/pets for WoW, and all of the WoW services.
Sure, I think gating is necessary to a point, and releasing content patches gradually is how to do it, but shuttling people THROUGH each tier so that they NEED that patch is the issue. Those on the bleeding edge will always be waiting for the next tier, heck even those on the front say, 15-20% edge. Why does everyone else need to have nothing to do all the time? When they don't trickle the releases you end up with BC black temple, which was basically just as bad for some people, but for everyone else they probably had no idea that top guilds farmed tier 6 for an entire year before the next release - most people probably don't think that happened until ICC. ICC's buff was fine because it was the last tier of the expansion and the lich king was HARD. If there had been another zone, people would just..not kill the Lich king. Just like people simply didn't kill Ragnaros (though he's been nerfed far more than arthas ever was). I think that's fine to an extent, but if the next zone was harder and people didn't just get spoonfed their gear from lfr and normal modes being piss easy, it would certainly work a lot better to temper the speed with which people consume content.
Also, you say brickwalling sucks, I agree to a point, but people shouldn't really be able to brickwall very easily, in theory a guild that can't beat boss X is going to take longer to even GET to boss X. By then the next tier will be out and there willbe at least some new gear available to those players to help them overcome hurdles. Badges in BC did this.
The problem comes when normal mode gear invalidates heroic mode gear of the previous tier. It gives no purpose to the previous one. It should be a pretty clear progression with each patch:
The new zone normal mode is between the old zone's normal and heroic mode. The new zone's LFR is between the old zone's LFR and normal mode. Everyone can do one tier 'lower' content on the new zone and get useful upgrades, and can still do their 'progression' tier of the old zone to get even more upgrades.
Alex
Member
Whatever Blizzard does with their next MMO, they desperately need to get away from this "consume and forget" model they have going with this game, it's always been iffy but as of the last expansion or so it's gotten to be ridiculous. You're just living patch to patch with nothing else worth looking at and 99% of the game files are meaningless. That's especially rough when they're VERY CLEARLY strapped between multiple projects moreso than back in the BC-era.
I assume WoW is on cruise control, so it's probably stuck how it is, but I hope they learned from the big issues in this game when laying down the foundation for the next.
I assume WoW is on cruise control, so it's probably stuck how it is, but I hope they learned from the big issues in this game when laying down the foundation for the next.
ShadyMilkman
Banned
Nothing much to add other than that I agree with everything Yanger is saying.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
Sounds pretty cool.
- The minimum item level to upgrade gear is 375.
- The left side shows the gear item level (500) and the player's item level (489).
- The right side shows the increase in item level, and the new item level (525) and player's item level (491).
- Right now all stats are upgraded, you can see the increase in individual stats on the right side (+35) and the new stat amount (255).
- This example only shows one stat, but in the final product all of the stats on an item will be increased.
- Each item has a limited number of times it can be upgraded, which is shown at the top right (2/3), with the upgrade cost directly above it (300).
No, nope, never again. The current system, with all of its problems, is leaps and bounds better than "oh, here's content we're going to make that you will never, ever see while it's relevant".
I didn't strive for Sunwell, because it wasn't going to happen. I didn't strive for SSC, TK, BT, etc because given my schedule and the politicking and the guilds on my server (#1 guild on my server raided between 30 and 40 hours a week, that can go fuck right off), they weren't going to happen. Content patches (excluding the ZA patch) offered nothing to look forward to, and, as much as TBC was a step forwards in that I had at least a gear path through the expansion, I was no longer content with getting table scraps while everyone else got content.
But the genie is out of the bottle. They're not going back to what they did in TBC for content. The playerbase won't let them.
Kandrick
GAF's Ed McMahon
I think i'm about to sub again. Haven't played in years and feeling like playing some mmo, and WoW is still the most appealing so far. Nobody i know still plays on the US servers, so i'm thinking of going back to EU servers for the better ping/times. Gonna be be fun starting over, with the old world revamped, especially on an account where i have no character over 15!
But i'm still not sure on what class to make. I used to have a 60 priest that i stopped when BC came out, and 70 warlock, 70 rogue that i played during BC. Still trying to catch up with all the changes, and there's a lot. Liking what i am reading so far, like the dungeon finder etc.
Maybe i'll check out the new fancy goblins, are priests decent all around healers ? How about the leveling/solo side ?
Also for people that play on EU servers, what is a good server pve to play on ? Preferably one that is populated.
But i'm still not sure on what class to make. I used to have a 60 priest that i stopped when BC came out, and 70 warlock, 70 rogue that i played during BC. Still trying to catch up with all the changes, and there's a lot. Liking what i am reading so far, like the dungeon finder etc.
Maybe i'll check out the new fancy goblins, are priests decent all around healers ? How about the leveling/solo side ?
Also for people that play on EU servers, what is a good server pve to play on ? Preferably one that is populated.
Priests are great healers, and shadow is good damage at max level, but you might be better off leveling as discipline for low levels. Every class can effectively solo now, which is pretty nice. The revamped 1 - 60 quests are a lot of fun.
I can't say anything about EU servers though, I only play US side. You could ask for a scroll of resurrection from an EU player, I think it will give you a free upgrade to cataclysm
Wowprogress can offer a decent server population estimate, just pick your language up top and you can list realms by raid progression or population.
Kandrick
GAF's Ed McMahon
Thanks!
Yeah, i might go with priest, even though i kind of want to try something new, like maybe a shaman. Basically a class that can heal but also dps. That dual spec thing is pretty nice!
Also on the dungeon finder, is the xp from the dungeons good enough to be worth doing ?
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
Dungeon XP is fantastic, at least the first run through a specific dungeon as there are now quest givers at the entrance of every dungeon with quests that give a ton of XP and usually some nice blue items.
Repeated runs using the random option are still good due to the bonus from that, so even if your queue time is long, you can go around questing while waiting for it to pop. Otherwise if you're a tank or healer and get instant queues, chain running is very viable.
The Lamonster
Member
How time consuming is the quest line to get netherwing drakes? I want the Onyx one real bad. I noticed you have to have Artisan flying though so that's a bummer.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
Well there's not much competition for eggs now, so if you hunted for those as well, you could finish in as little as a few days. Just doing the quests and casual egg finding will take about 1 to 2 weeks.
The Lamonster
Member
Doesn't sound nearly as bad as trying to get the Green Proto Drake haha. Thanks!
Also, I need help with my Shadow Priest spell rotation. I'm constantly running out of mana and my dps sucks. What is a good rotation for level 67?
Usually I start with Mind Blast, then throw up SW
ain and then Mind Flay until MB is off cool down.It is? Last I checked, if you're not seeing content until it's already been nerfed, it's not relevant then either. How is actually HAVING content table scraps? Are you telling me you're having a baller ass time farming Dragon Soul for 8 months thusfar? BOY THATS SURE BETTER THAN ACTUALLY HAVING STUFF TO DO AND LOOK FORWARD TO.
You basically are saying you didn't do anything because it wasn't going to happen. You did nothing to make it happen. TBC content was completely doable on a casual/normal schedule. None of the rest of that has ANY relevance to what is being discussed. In fact, your entire argument is negated by the advent of LFR. It's not like they'd suddenly take it out, but they can leave it in and still make previous tiers meaningful too. People who literally don't want to put in any effort can STILL see all of the content. My post clearly outlined how to tier the loot so that that would lengthen the 'value' of each tier AT LEAST twice as long as they are now. Ideally LFR loot would be a step up each time and never infringe on raiding gear at all, that way all tiers would remain totally relevant for the entire xpac, but I don't see that happening since LFR folk would probably bitch too much.
The fact that Sunwell was ridiculously hard and released right before the end of BC is why you didn't get to see it. The fact that you didn't even try to find a guild for SSC and TK is why you didn't get to see it. Neither of those aspects are directly attributable to the progression model being discussed, they're both relics of the fact that TBC didn't have anything easier than what would now be the equivilent of Heroic mode raiding. That wouldn't be the case anymore. Plain and simple.
My apologizes if I misunderstood. I thought you wanted to slow the progression on LFR as much as non-LFR in order to stretch content out, though I'd disagree with the notion that stretching the content out as you've described is substantially different than having a place on farm for the same duration of time. Making tiers last longer than that hardly seems to be an ideal solution, or a solution at all, for Blizzard failing to put out content in a timely manner. In fact, cancelling between tiers seems like a good way to send a message to Blizz to ramp up content production, as opposed to asking for a better treadmill.
That also said, you don't know me or my situation, or anyone else who has been in that specific situation. It's unfair of you to make such assumptions, which in turn invite people to make assumptions about you. This isn't FoH, being "hard" here doesn't impress the 02'ers.
I haven't up'd my sub in about 2 months because I got soo salty trying to get the Green Proto Drake.
ShadyMilkman
Banned
I guess I look at it from the EQ mindset.
I think having raids that seem 'undoable' give players a carrot to strive for. It may sound callous, but in my opinion, if you don't have the time to raid/join a raiding guild, then sorry, you don't get to see the all the content you want to.
LFR obviously appeases that, but I've always held this opinion.
I think having raids that seem 'undoable' give players a carrot to strive for. It may sound callous, but in my opinion, if you don't have the time to raid/join a raiding guild, then sorry, you don't get to see the all the content you want to.
LFR obviously appeases that, but I've always held this opinion.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
I think it's especially important for an MMO which is always supposed to have content to do. Your're never supposed to finish everything unless you're ultra elite. Now this goes against normal game design and the typical human completionist mindset, but for MMOs, it's necessary to keep people hooked.
LFR is fine, but I think for regular raiding going (back) to a sort of tough love mindset is better for the health of the game. Who knows what's more profitable, but having it be too easy is a compromise of game design. (Albeit, this is tricky to balance now compared to when WoW was younger and had a smaller community, fewer resources, and a less-skilled/familiar with boss mechanics player base.)
You either make fights very gear dependent (which Blizzard would regard as not fun, and most people would agree), or you have to invent novel mechanics, which is hard at this point. Almost any given new boss you'll see now is a rehash of mechanics you've seen elsewhere. It's difficult when you realize there are surprisingly few base mechanics in the combat sandbox - making something truly "new" would require a large degree of complexity. The simplification of stats/talents/buffs/etc. since Cataclysm doesn't help in this regard (though the changes are mostly good for other reasons.)