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World of Warcraft |OT3|

sazzy

Member
Seems like Blizzard wanted people to buy the Tides of War book which explains what's actually going on in the scenario.

Pretty shitty move.

Anyway, courtesy of the b.net forums: Some Context

I know a lot of people are complaining about the Theramore event making no bloody sense.

This is true. If you didn't read Jaina Proudmoore: Tides of War, it's a cluster!@#$ of "what is even going on".

To lighten this up somewhat, here is a brief summary of the events of ToW leading up to Theramore:

-The Horde stole the Focusing Iris from the blue dragonflight. Kalecgos asks Jaina to help him find it.
-The Horde destroys Northwatch Hold in the Southern Barrens, and from there march into Dustwallow Marsh.
-The Horde make a mana bomb and power it up to RIDICULOUS levels with the Focusing Iris.
-Jaina calls for backup from the Alliance and Dalaran. Rhonin, Marcus Johnathan, Vereesa Windrunner, Shandris Feathermoon. All the big names arrive to help save Theramore.
-Mages use magic to keep the gates to Theramore closed while the Horde attack.
-A blood elf pretending to be from Dalaran, but he's actually Horde, sabotages the gates and the Horde storms into Theramore. He's locked up beneath the barracks.
-With Kalecgos's help, the Alliance pushes the Horde back.
-Horde Scenario starts here. Rescue the blood elf from prison before the bomb drops.
-Kalecgos tries to stop the zeppelin carrying the bomb, but he's knocked out into the ocean.
-Rhonin pushes Jaina through a portal as the bomb drops, sacrificing himself so she will live.
-Everyone in Theramore dies.
-Jaina wakes up on an island and sees a magical storm on the horizon. She returns to the ruins of Theramore.
-Alliance Scenario starts here. Find Jaina and get the Focusing Iris.

And then:

Not a problem.

Normally I don't mind putting important things in books, because I'm going to buy the books anyway. But this was ridiculously bad.

Before, you could get away with just the in-game lore. For this event though, absolutely nothing makes sense without the book. Nothing.

This happens after for anyone interested:
-Vol'jin and Baine talk about how Garrosh is going too far.
-Jaina steals the Focusing Iris this time, without telling Kalecgos.
-Jaina tells Varian they need to attack Orgrimmar now, immediately. Varian tells her to calm down, they need to plan this out and can't go rushing in. Jaina tells Anduin she's sorry that she made him such a pacifist.
-The Horde blockades the entire continent of Kalimdor. No Alliance ships can get in or out of the continent.
-Jaina goes to that one island in the Barrens with the pirates. She kills them all, summons hundreds of water elementals, and uses the Focusing Iris to fuse them all into a gigantic tidal wave so she can drown Orgrimmar.
-Thrall arrives and tells Jaina to stop. Jaina blames Thrall for all of this since he put Garrosh in charge. Thrall tries to free the trapped elementals while fighting Jaina.
-Varian tricks the Horde into sending their blockade up to Darkshore, and while Orgrimmar is undefended he leads a fleet of Alliance ships to Durotar.
-The Horde shamans summon krakens to fight the Alliance ships.
-Kalecgos arrives and is able to calm Jaina down where even Thrall couldn't. Thrall returns to the Maelstrom. Jaina breaks the tidal wave and uses the hundreds of elementals to attack the kraken.
-The Horde utterly destroys the Alliance fleet, the Alliance retreat but are able to retake Northwatch Hold at least.
-Garrosh decides he wants to conquer the entire planet, not just Kalimdor.
-Jaina takes Rhonin's place as leader of Dalaran. Kalecgos decides to stay in Dalaran and with her. The blue dragonflight disbands without Kalec to lead them, all blue dragons go their separate ways.

Hopefully this fleshes out what the F is going on for other people as it did for me.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6607191775
 

Sethos

Banned
For the love of god; don't create an OT, it will be filled with GW2 vs MoP or people hating the shit out of the game, let's just use this.

GW2 vs WoW ( MoP ) wouldn't be too bad as GW2 is awful and that argument could be easily won :p

But the WoW hate would become excessive, so just stick with this imo.
 
R

Rösti

Unconfirmed Member
ALSO: Are we going to create a new OP for Mists or just ride this one out? (Are we allowed to make a new OT?)
It would be nice to have the OP updated with links to talent calculators, and perhaps an updated banner (I'm happy to provide one). But a new OT I think would be superfluous.

If anything, there could be threads for launch day and the events that take place then:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/7237860/The_Midnight_Launch_Party_You_Cant_Miss-9_14_2012

http://eu.blizzard.com/en-gb/company/events/mists-of-pandaria-launch.html#stream:europe
 

sazzy

Member
GW2 vs WoW ( MoP ) wouldn't be too bad as GW2 is awful and that argument could be easily won :p

But the WoW hate would become excessive, so just stick with this imo.

If no one else does, I'm gonna make at least a 'MoP is live yay'news thread and direct everyone to here where we can dismantle their hopes and dreams of an MMO killing wow.
 

Robin64

Member
I love the books for giving more details of events and insights into exactly how major characters think and act. I'm a lore nerd, though.

But it does royally annoy me when events aren't explained ingame *at all*. This is just horrible and I wish it would stop. The latest event is the worst yet, I think. It is, as someone said, a commercial for the book.
 

Entropia

No One Remembers
-The Horde shamans summon krakens to fight the Alliance ships.

When do I get this ability?

-A blood elf pretending to be from Dalaran, but he's actually Horde, sabotages the gates and the Horde storms into Theramore. He's locked up beneath the barracks.
-With Kalecgos's help, the Alliance pushes the Horde back.
-Horde Scenario starts here. Rescue the blood elf from prison before the bomb drops.
-Kalecgos tries to stop the zeppelin carrying the bomb, but he's knocked out into the ocean.

- Why do we rescue the Blood Elf? That seems out of character for Garrosh's "Don't Give a Fuck" attitude. He seems more the type to think: "He got captured? Too bad, he dies then."

- Kalecgos only appears in the tower. Why isn't he shown trying to carry the bomb or prevent it?


- At the end of the Horde Scenario/Beginning of the Alliance Scenario all we see is the Goblin ship coming in to drop the bomb. It looks like literally nothing has happened. Where are the Gnomes gyrocopters or Dwarf Gryphon Riders to prevent this, or any Alliance airships? The sky is completely dead while we're on the ground doing our thing for the Horde Scenario.
 

sazzy

Member
When do I get this ability?



- Why do we rescue the Blood Elf? That seems out of character for Garrosh's "Don't Give a Fuck" attitude. He seems more the type to think: "He got captured? Too bad, he dies then."

- Kalecgos only appears in the tower. Why isn't he shown trying to carry the bomb or prevent it?


- At the end of the Horde Scenario/Beginning of the Alliance Scenario all we see is the Goblin ship coming in to drop the bomb. It looks like literally nothing has happened. Where are the Gnomes gyrocopters or Dwarf Gryphon Riders to prevent this, or any Alliance airships? The sky is completely dead while we're on the ground doing our thing for the Horde Scenario.

I have no clue, sorry :(

The guys answers some more questions in this thread though so it might be useful: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6607191775
 

aesop

Member
I'll just echo the sentiments about the new scenario. It's pretty shitty. If they would have added just a short prologue quest and epilogue to give us some kind of indication of what the hell is actually going on I think it wouldn't have been so bad. (read the synopsis above, not buying the books. thanks for finding that)

Gameplay wise, I like the idea. They could do a lot with those scenarios and I hope the other ones are better fleshed out.
 

Entropia

No One Remembers
It would've been at least nice as well, that, in the world, we're battling in and outside of Theramore but you can queue for the scenario and do it.
 

Kletian

Member
When do I get this ability?



- Why do we rescue the Blood Elf? That seems out of character for Garrosh's "Don't Give a Fuck" attitude. He seems more the type to think: "He got captured? Too bad, he dies then."

- Kalecgos only appears in the tower. Why isn't he shown trying to carry the bomb or prevent it?


- At the end of the Horde Scenario/Beginning of the Alliance Scenario all we see is the Goblin ship coming in to drop the bomb. It looks like literally nothing has happened. Where are the Gnomes gyrocopters or Dwarf Gryphon Riders to prevent this, or any Alliance airships? The sky is completely dead while we're on the ground doing our thing for the Horde Scenario.

Read the book myself, so I can answer the last bulletpoint somewhat.

From what I read, zero air support was brought from Eastern Kingdoms, anything air-related was native to Theramore, which in the book, the raiding party that saves the Blood Elf also makes a point to destroy all of the Gryphon nests/roosts/stables/whatever.
 

Robin64

Member
In the book, Kalecgos makes a last attempt to destroy the bomb while it's still attached to the zep. They fire cannons at him and all sorts and, obviously, fails. It sucked that he wasn't flying around ingame at all.

And guys, worry not, level 90 Scenarios are much more self-contained. They're not just two pages from a novel you need to read, they are just a short complete story.
 

Berordn

Member
And guys, worry not, level 90 Scenarios are much more self-contained. They're not just two pages from a novel you need to read, they are just a short complete story.

They also work a lot better mechanically with 90 blues/greens and are a lot more fleshed out. They play more like the old group quests and are actually really interesting when you get to fight bosses with mechanics that don't fit the traditional holy trinity paradigm. Both Theramore scenarios probably play a lot better at 90 too.

Making the itemlevel requirement to do the scenario at 85 that low probably worked against them, since we melt through stuff before they even get a chance to do anything.
 
For what it's worth, I thought the Jaina book was really entertaining and worth my time. Scenario was too short but enjoyable for what it was. I haven't touched my Alliance Warrior in forever (been leveling an Undead Mage instead) so it was fun.

Ubercasual here, my wife's the big WoW player.
 
I just received my Scroll of Resurrection. I have a 70 NE Hunter, but I want to use my free lvl 80 on a different character. Any recommendations on which character to roll? I was thinking a warlock, druid, or death knight... I like solo PvE and also PvP'ing. Which would be the best character to take advantage of Blizzard charity?

If this is not the right place to ask, please feel free to flame me.
 

Berordn

Member
They try and defend by saying its not a event, its a scenario. Something as big as the fall of Theramore should be an event.

On the other hand, it's time wasted making content that's going to be lost forever when the expansion itself launches. They had apparently planned a naval battle to break the blockade, but it would have only lasted two weeks and they're still using this time to tweak and polish the expansion. Obviously Mists took longer to develop than they had planned, but if it means getting a quality product on launch day and not seeing a repeat of Cataclysm's first months, I'm okay with that.
 

Bizazedo

Member
On the other hand, it's time wasted making content that's going to be lost forever when the expansion itself launches. They had apparently planned a naval battle to break the blockade, but it would have only lasted two weeks and they're still using this time to tweak and polish the expansion. Obviously Mists took longer to develop than they had planned, but if it means getting a quality product on launch day and not seeing a repeat of Cataclysm's first months, I'm okay with that.

Sometimes, in an MMO, stuff should be done to make a memorable moment. Love it or hate it, the AQ opening was memorable.

The zombie invasion was memorable.

All "wasted" content that might not be re-used, but it made the player feel a part of something and made the subscriptions worthwhile.

This is memorable for being..."meh".
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Seems like Blizzard wanted people to buy the Tides of War book which explains what's actually going on in the scenario.

Pretty shitty move.

Anyway, courtesy of the b.net forums: Some Context



And then:



Hopefully this fleshes out what the F is going on for other people as it did for me.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6607191775
You forgot about the Kalec hooks up with Jaina part.
 

Bizazedo

Member
You forgot about the Kalec hooks up with Jaina part.

And apparently he just lets the Blue Dragonflight wander where the hell ever / disband.

Despite in the previous expansion, the dragons all saying how they were united as one as they were meant to be.

Yay different authors.
 

Enosh

Member
I just received my Scroll of Resurrection. I have a 70 NE Hunter, but I want to use my free lvl 80 on a different character. Any recommendations on which character to roll? I was thinking a warlock, druid, or death knight... I like solo PvE and also PvP'ing. Which would be the best character to take advantage of Blizzard charity?

If this is not the right place to ask, please feel free to flame me.
don't do a DK, they start at 55 anyway and I read about some people having problem because DKs get a lot of their spells through the starting zone quest which they didn't have upon using SoR
 

Berordn

Member
Sometimes, in an MMO, stuff should be done to make a memorable moment. Love it or hate it, the AQ opening was memorable.

The zombie invasion was memorable.

All "wasted" content that might not be re-used, but it made the player feel a part of something and made the subscriptions worthwhile.

This is memorable for being..."meh".

And I don't disagree, but with how badly they borked the Cata launch and with doomsayers on every side, I think they may actually be right on this one. AQ and Zombie invasion were both memorable for entirely different reasons, but the game's landscape has moved far away from those grindy and repetitive world events. To make something that would now be memorable in WoW, especially if they want to do something representative of whatever conflict they hope to force both factions into would have to be gigantic. Battle of Gnomeregan, Zalazane's Fall, Twilight Uprising and the Elemental Unrest, while far less interactive than the Zombie Invasion, took much longer for them to develop when they were already overtaxed with the old world revamp and it showed in Cata. We got one large endgame raid tier with content that was originally intended to come later (Bastion), and nothing that matched it for the rest of the expansion.

As a whole, Cataclysm will end up being an unmemorable expansion because of the content, not because of the launch event. People still remember BC and it has nothing to do with the opening of the dark portal... you rarely hear people talk about the BC event. The expansion itself had memorable content and experiences and that sold it on people, in spite of how many interactive events there were. If they can reach the sort of balance where they can concurrently develop large world events and develop future content without one ruining the experience of the other then it's all the better, but if they have as much trouble pushing out content as they did with Cataclysm then it's better we'll have memorable raids, dungeons, locations and characters, isn't it?
 

sazzy

Member
You know what would've made a fun event?

Little Sha of Anger/Fear/Doubt minions/visions/whatever influencing toons hanging out in SW/Org which make players lose control of their characters and attack other players/run away/etc for a few seconds every so often. Would apply to NPCs too.
 
Sometimes, in an MMO, stuff should be done to make a memorable moment. Love it or hate it, the AQ opening was memorable.

The zombie invasion was memorable.

All "wasted" content that might not be re-used, but it made the player feel a part of something and made the subscriptions worthwhile.

This is memorable for being..."meh".

I wish something like the AQ event would happen again. Collecting all the supplies was so much fun.
 

Bizazedo

Member
And I don't disagree, but with how badly they borked the Cata launch and with doomsayers on every side, I think they may actually be right on this one. AQ and Zombie invasion were both memorable for entirely different reasons, but the game's landscape has moved far away from those grindy and repetitive world events. To make something that would now be memorable in WoW, especially if they want to do something representative of whatever conflict they hope to force both factions into would have to be gigantic. Battle of Gnomeregan, Zalazane's Fall, Twilight Uprising and the Elemental Unrest, while far less interactive than the Zombie Invasion, took much longer for them to develop when they were already overtaxed with the old world revamp and it showed in Cata. We got one large endgame raid tier with content that was originally intended to come later (Bastion), and nothing that matched it for the rest of the expansion.

Well from discussion of Cataclysm.... that was mostly due to the HUGE work it took to revamp the entire old world. The Battle of Gnomeregan, Zalazane's Fall, Twilight Uprising and Elemental Unrest were all incredibly minor in comparison. Theramore was probably less work, but I can't imagine a huge amount less. Especially as they could piggyback off zombie invasion for the elemental unrest part.

So I don't think this helps your argument. If anything, it points to them doing LESS work this go-round. Or having less resources.

Cataclysm was easily the largest expansion the game ever had.

As a whole, Cataclysm will end up being an unmemorable expansion because of the content, not because of the launch event. People still remember BC and it has nothing to do with the opening of the dark portal... you rarely hear people talk about the BC event. The expansion itself had memorable content and experiences and that sold it on people, in spite of how many interactive events there were. If they can reach the sort of balance where they can concurrently develop large world events and develop future content without one ruining the experience of the other then it's all the better, but if they have as much trouble pushing out content as they did with Cataclysm then it's better we'll have memorable raids, dungeons, locations and characters, isn't it?

Again, Cataclysm exceeded any other expansion in terms of work done by Blizzard. By far. Honestly? Blizzard doesn't get enough credit for what they did with Cataclysm. You could argue about whether their effort with the old world was wasted, but the real problem is Cataclysm shows how much less work they did this go-round.

What I DO agree with you about is that this should be tempest in a teacup. It's really not a huge deal that the scenario is blah.

The problem is, as usual, perception and that this is a break from prior expansions. When you look at all of them together, this makes Blizzard look bad. And people always remember / talk about the bad more than the good.
 

Tarazet

Member
Whatever the case, it wasn't a good decision for Blizzard to release this when they could have chosen.. you know, better content to tease us with.
 

Berordn

Member
I'm not saying that Cataclysm wasn't huge, because the Old World revamp is easily the best part of the expansion. I've given them credit on that time and time again, but when it comes down to it, Pandaria is gigantic in terms of manpower. The amount of art and new assets in the game is incredible, and from what they've reported, the continent has as many quests as the Cataclysm revamp did, and the new zones are beautiful and packed with stuff to do. Cata Old World didn't really have that many new assets. A couple of new armor sets for questing greens, but mostly everything new in the expansion, artwise anyway, was contained to the new zones and the instanced Kezan/Lost Isles and Ruins of Gilneas. Almost everything "new" in the revamp came from BC or LK assets, or those two starting zones.

Pandaria has new art and assets everywhere - there's very little that's been recycled. Even when it's something like the stags or great cats that have had models since Vanilla, the ones in Pandaria are actually redone, retextured and just look nicer. The raids themselves, while they have their share of generic bosses, are still pretty remarkable in scope and style. I can't honestly look at Mists and say they did any less work than they did for Cataclysm, it's just more apparent in different places. Even the redone Scarlet Monastery and Scholomance have new architecture and assets in them, something that was lacking in Cata's Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep.

But you're right, no matter what good they've done, the fact that we've been waiting around nearly ten months makes everything else seem irrelevant. Some day we'll probably look back on Cata favorably, but until then we're bored out of our minds and hate every second of it.
 

Bizazedo

Member
I'm not saying that Cataclysm wasn't huge, because the Old World revamp is easily the best part of the expansion. I've given them credit on that time and time again, but when it comes down to it, Pandaria is gigantic in terms of manpower. The amount of art and new assets in the game is incredible, and from what they've reported, the continent has as many quests as the Cataclysm revamp did, and the new zones are beautiful and packed with stuff to do. Cata Old World didn't really have that many new assets. A couple of new armor sets for questing greens, but mostly everything new in the expansion, artwise anyway, was contained to the new zones and the instanced Kezan/Lost Isles and Ruins of Gilneas. Almost everything "new" in the revamp came from BC or LK assets, or those two starting zones.

Pandaria has new art and assets everywhere - there's very little that's been recycled. Even when it's something like the stags or great cats that have had models since Vanilla, the ones in Pandaria are actually redone, retextured and just look nicer. The raids themselves, while they have their share of generic bosses, are still pretty remarkable in scope and style. I can't honestly look at Mists and say they did any less work than they did for Cataclysm, it's just more apparent in different places.

They revamped almost every zone in the Old World. Entire zones changed. I don't see how you can say Pandaria took more effort. It's almost impossible to contemplate even if you're simplistic about it and go on a zone by zone basis.

The testing alone that'd be required to make sure nothing was broken or missed because of the revamps is staggering.
 

RPGCrazied

Member
I'm not saying that Cataclysm wasn't huge, because the Old World revamp is easily the best part of the expansion. I've given them credit on that time and time again, but when it comes down to it, Pandaria is gigantic in terms of manpower. The amount of art and new assets in the game is incredible, and from what they've reported, the continent has as many quests as the Cataclysm revamp did, and the new zones are beautiful and packed with stuff to do. Cata Old World didn't really have that many new assets. A couple of new armor sets for questing greens, but mostly everything new in the expansion, artwise anyway, was contained to the new zones and the instanced Kezan/Lost Isles and Ruins of Gilneas. Almost everything "new" in the revamp came from BC or LK assets, or those two starting zones.

Pandaria has new art and assets everywhere - there's very little that's been recycled. Even when it's something like the stags or great cats that have had models since Vanilla, the ones in Pandaria are actually redone, retextured and just look nicer. The raids themselves, while they have their share of generic bosses, are still pretty remarkable in scope and style. I can't honestly look at Mists and say they did any less work than they did for Cataclysm, it's just more apparent in different places. Even the redone Scarlet Monastery and Scholomance have new architecture and assets in them, something that was lacking in Cata's Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep.

Yeah, thats what has me excited for MoP, even if the Theramore scenario sucked. Looks like it'll be BC/Wrath all over again when it comes to zones and the excitement of exploring a new world.
 

Berordn

Member
They revamped almost every zone in the Old World. Entire zones changed. I don't see how you can say Pandaria took more effort. It's almost impossible to contemplate even if you're simplistic about it and go on a zone by zone basis.

The testing alone that'd be required to make sure nothing was broken or missed because of the revamps is staggering.

Because it also comes down to art assets as well as the manpower required to implement the quests. Very little geometry changed in the zones themselves, and when it did it was usually to implement architecture from Wrath or to make a scar to split zones that had previously been connected. "Drawing in" features like mountains and oceans where there was previously a large void in the world was probably much more intensive than some of the revamps.I know it probably took a lot of manpower for something like the Thousand Needles revamp, but on the same token there's Duskwood which mostly just saw some shuffling of mobs and reorganization of quests instead of an extensive redesign... and even the new zones reused a lot of Vanilla geometry.

Having played the beta for Mists and played through all of Cataclysm's zones at least once, I really have no trouble saying that they've put an equal amount of work into Pandaria, if not more.
 

RPGCrazied

Member
Does Amazon ever ship early to meet release dates or not? I'm getting standard shipping, and it says estimated delivery is October 1 - 3rd, that sounds like longer than it should take.
 

Bizazedo

Member
Because it also comes down to art assets as well as the manpower required to implement the quests. Very little geometry changed in the zones themselves, and when it did it was usually to implement architecture from Wrath or to make a scar to split zones that had previously been connected. "Drawing in" features like mountains and oceans where there was previously a large void in the world was probably much more intensive than some of the revamps.I know it probably took a lot of manpower for something like the Thousand Needles revamp, but on the same token there's Duskwood which mostly just saw some shuffling of mobs and reorganization of quests instead of an extensive redesign... and even the new zones reused a lot of Vanilla geometry.

Having played the beta for Mists and played through all of Cataclysm's zones at least once, I really have no trouble saying that they've put an equal amount of work into Pandaria, if not more.

We might just have to agree to disagree. All I know is Furor straight up banned people on fohguild.org who implied that the revamp wasn't that big of a deal and it was heavily insinuated Blizzard would never do that much work on an expansion again, that Cataclysm was like two expansions in one (due to people going "good job, BC revamp next!")

And having also played through all the Cataclysm zones and all the revamped zones for both Horde and Alliance..and been in Pandaria beta..I'd have to feel the opposite.

But, hey, that's what great about messageboards. Can disagree on stupid stuff like this, but then both agree that it's fun and looking forward to next Tuesday.
 

Entropia

No One Remembers
I hate to say it, but I don't include the revamped 1-60 as part of the Cataclysm content.

While it was certainly a Herculean effort to do that, it wasn't a part of the shipped game. The game changed the old world regardless if I had Cataclsym or not. What matters, to me, in an expansion is the content when you step into the new zone, the raids, the dungeons, the quests, etc. The old world wasn't a part of Mount Hyjal, Uldum, etc.
 
I feel kinda bad Theramore is destroyed though. I've always played Horde, but Garrosh is pretty much a dick, and I sympathize with Jaina, having known her going back to the WC3 days.

Not really a "Horde Fuck Yeah!" moment.
 

Berordn

Member
I feel kinda bad Theramore is destroyed though. I've always played Horde, but Garrosh is pretty much a dick, and I sympathize with Jaina, having known her going back to the WC3 days.

Not really a "Horde Fuck Yeah!" moment.

I think it's kind of interesting, this it the first time Horde players actually do something legitimately evil. I still prefer the "both sides have legitimate quarrels with each other" cold war style from Vanilla and BC, but the more we move away from having a true antagonist, the more this works. Of course Thrall will step in and redeem the Horde or something, but until then...
 
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