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[cdyhybrid]

The problem with LFR is largely that for a large majority of players they can see the content with a very very very small amount of effort required so because of that they never feel the need to actually learn about the fights, mechanics, their class, or about raiding in general. It ends up spoiling the pool of possible raiders to draw from as more and more people quit the game. There aren't very many people getting into raiding anymore and why should they when they can see the content without very having to really try to do anything.

Raiding and the gear it offered was a big reward for putting real time and effort into the game now they hand out everything like anyone who has ever made a character is entitled to be able to have a mythic raiding item level without putting any real effort into it. The legendarys being random drops in Legion is one of the dumbest things that blizzard has ever decided to do.

The reward of actually doing high end rating is so low now the raiding population is dying because of it. You are seeing some of the major progression guilds quit because theres nothing worth it anymore and most are moving on to better games and those who still want to get mythic archimonde down like myself and my guild are having massive problems recruiting because its in between expansions and there is very few people actually trying to get into raiding now and even if there is most are so far behind on the legendary questline that they can be the best player in the entire fucking world but if they don't have that ring they can't keep up and unless you want to spend 5 or more hours a week grinding out mythic dungeons for VP its just not easy to catch up.

If you were a major fan of Warcraft and you wanted to see how the story of Arthas or Illidan ended you had to actually do a real raid to see that content, that was part of your reward for working through those raids and committing your time to the game. Now you want to kill Archimonde one of the biggest badasses to ever appear in the Warcraft universe its just a queue away, there is no challenge, no effort needed, just a few clicks and bam you are there right at his feet and he'll give you epic gear for the next to no effort you put into it.

When LFR was introduced what I wanted it to be was a way to actually allow players who were not familiar with raiding to learn about raiding and hopefully get into it because of it, but the LFR crowd just wined over and over again about the bosses not being faceroll enough and now they are literally faceroll and we are all worse off for it.

Guilds are quitting because there's no content, not because of LFR :lol

The vast majority of people that do LFR-only (aside from doing it for legendary quest progression, which is going away in Legion) wouldn't start raiding if LFR disappeared.

It also doesn't make much sense for Blizzard to spend time, money, and other resources on content (raid zones, encounter design, item models/design) that most of the population will never see.

 

[Rambaldi]

The problem with LFR is largely that for a large majority of players they can see the content with a very very very small amount of effort required so because of that they never feel the need to actually learn about the fights, mechanics, their class, or about raiding in general. It ends up spoiling the pool of possible raiders to draw from as more and more people quit the game. There aren't very many people getting into raiding anymore and why should they when they can see the content without very having to really try to do anything.

Raiding and the gear it offered was a big reward for putting real time and effort into the game now they hand out everything like anyone who has ever made a character is entitled to be able to have a mythic raiding item level without putting any real effort into it. The legendarys being random drops in Legion is one of the dumbest things that blizzard has ever decided to do.

The reward of actually doing high end rating is so low now the raiding population is dying because of it. You are seeing some of the major progression guilds quit because theres nothing worth it anymore and most are moving on to better games and those who still want to get mythic archimonde down like myself and my guild are having massive problems recruiting because its in between expansions and there is very few people actually trying to get into raiding now and even if there is most are so far behind on the legendary questline that they can be the best player in the entire fucking world but if they don't have that ring they can't keep up and unless you want to spend 5 or more hours a week grinding out mythic dungeons for VP its just not easy to catch up.

If you were a major fan of Warcraft and you wanted to see how the story of Arthas or Illidan ended you had to actually do a real raid to see that content, that was part of your reward for working through those raids and committing your time to the game. Now you want to kill Archimonde one of the biggest badasses to ever appear in the Warcraft universe its just a queue away, there is no challenge, no effort needed, just a few clicks and bam you are there right at his feet and he'll give you epic gear for the next to no effort you put into it.

When LFR was introduced what I wanted it to be was a way to actually allow players who were not familiar with raiding to learn about raiding and hopefully get into it because of it, but the LFR crowd just wined over and over again about the bosses not being faceroll enough and now they are literally faceroll and we are all worse off for it.

To me, this all reads as "I liked it better when I could do something and others couldn't."

LFR isn't perfect but I fully support players being able to see content and stories. Schedules don't always align for raiding. Actual adults who have to go to work play this game. Do they not deserve a chance to see the storyline to a game they're paying for monthly unfold because they don't have this supposed "effort required" to join a raiding guild? Who cares if they get to see Archimonde and maybe get a piece of gear to go with it? They're paying the same amount as the rest of us. Would it being a rare rather than an epic allow you to feel better about your digital accomplishment?

Aside from Warlords I was in a raiding guild. Maybe not a HARDCORE MYTHIC TOP 5 Guild but a guild who killed bosses nonetheless. I've never once been offended or threatened by the existence of LFR or LFD. I don't understand this line of thinking.

 

[jaundicejuice]

Legion allows multiple people to tap a single mob for quest credit and stuff. There's a limit on it so people don't just do everything in a raid group, but it should help a bit with that.

Nice! Glad they implemented this, probably it was the best aspect about Tanaan rares/bosses.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Hmm, apparently there is Demon Hunter gear in the journal loot tables of HFC on alpha.

Guessing they wouldn't bother putting loot for DHs into HFC if they were only going to be available for a week before launch...

 

[Lomax]

Didn't they do a lot of stuff like that for death knights too? And when you say gear do you mean, like, a new tier set?

The WoD pre-patch was almost a month and the way they've talked about the world event I could see them potentially running this one for a while. Aren't most of the core system changes pretty much done in the alpha at this point?

 

[drotahorror]

True, the dumbest shit from WoD is in Legion now. AND they're mandatory. As much as garrison's likely killed the community in WoD they didn't bother me that much because they weren't necessary. But now I HAVE to do garrison or I won't get a 3rd relic slot. Sick.

 

[jaundicejuice]

From the outside looking in, Class Halls look more like class-wide Zen Pilgrimage's to the Peak of Serenity, which is actually one of the cooler things about the Monk class while leveling, than flat out garrisons.

 

[phierce]

Really hate that outlook on things, and I've hated it since vanilla. "Actual adults who have to go to work for a living play this game too". Such a bullshit train of thought. Raiding efficiently doesn't mean you need 4 hours a night, 5 nights a week. Lots of us are older adults with jobs, a wife, kids, bills to pay, other responsibility, and we have heroic and/or mythic on farm. Just because you raid at a high level doesn't mean you live at home off your parents. For fucks sake.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

The problem with LFR is largely that for a large majority of players they can see the content with a very very very small amount of effort required so because of that they never feel the need to actually learn about the fights, mechanics, their class, or about raiding in general. It ends up spoiling the pool of possible raiders to draw from as more and more people quit the game. There aren't very many people getting into raiding anymore and why should they when they can see the content without very having to really try to do anything.

Raiding and the gear it offered was a big reward for putting real time and effort into the game now they hand out everything like anyone who has ever made a character is entitled to be able to have a mythic raiding item level without putting any real effort into it. The legendarys being random drops in Legion is one of the dumbest things that blizzard has ever decided to do.

The reward of actually doing high end rating is so low now the raiding population is dying because of it. You are seeing some of the major progression guilds quit because theres nothing worth it anymore and most are moving on to better games and those who still want to get mythic archimonde down like myself and my guild are having massive problems recruiting because its in between expansions and there is very few people actually trying to get into raiding now and even if there is most are so far behind on the legendary questline that they can be the best player in the entire fucking world but if they don't have that ring they can't keep up and unless you want to spend 5 or more hours a week grinding out mythic dungeons for VP its just not easy to catch up.

If you were a major fan of Warcraft and you wanted to see how the story of Arthas or Illidan ended you had to actually do a real raid to see that content, that was part of your reward for working through those raids and committing your time to the game. Now you want to kill Archimonde one of the biggest badasses to ever appear in the Warcraft universe its just a queue away, there is no challenge, no effort needed, just a few clicks and bam you are there right at his feet and he'll give you epic gear for the next to no effort you put into it.

When LFR was introduced what I wanted it to be was a way to actually allow players who were not familiar with raiding to learn about raiding and hopefully get into it because of it, but the LFR crowd just wined over and over again about the bosses not being faceroll enough and now they are literally faceroll and we are all worse off for it.

You are really delusional. People are leaving in droves because Blizzard treated casuals/average gamers like shit and because they focused too much on mythic raiding. And you think that Blizzard should focus even more on mythic raiding and the 1%? Lmao. Why do people have to bring this right-wing bullshit into gaming? This is a fucking game. And it should be fun for the majority of people, not only for the 1% who want to feel superior to others. Jesus Christ. If Blizzard actually followed your great vision for Legion, WoW would be completely dead in less than 3 months.

 

[Shahadan]

"work work work effort effort effort reward" :lol:

It's a damn game. Just because someone is crazy enough to run the same damn place 3 times a week for months doesn't mean everyone should have to do it, especially since in the end, there is no point to it except having fun.

Most people just want to complete a raid once and aren't interested in farming it

 

[LAUGHTREY]

You are really delusional. People are leaving in droves because Blizzard treated casuals/average gamers like shit and because they focused too much on mythic raiding. And you think that Blizzard should focus even more on mythic raiding and the 1%? Lmao. Why do people have to bring this right-wing bullshit into gaming? This is a fucking game. And it should be fun for the majority of people, not only for the 1% who want to feel superior to others. Jesus Christ. If Blizzard actually followed your great vision for Legion, WoW would be completely dead in less than 3 months.

People arrived in droves when the game had most people not get past level 20. Maybe there's something to be said about the journey and not the destination. Having an adventurous world out there to be a part of instead of being hurried along through a guided tour safely behind velvet ropes with a nice gift shop at the end. Having a horizon you may never get to. Feels like I've been doing this lately;

Especially when I have to kill the end boss a few times on easier difficulties before I can do him on his 'real' difficulty. It sorta sucks the fun out of killing a boss on mythic when I've already seen him die 4-5 times on heroic.

I really fail to see how they started catering to mythic and high-end raiders AFTER WotLK. Maybe there's a cross communication there or something, but I don't remember it being easier to step into raiding pre-LFR than it is now. Do you think people want attunement back or something? I don't know.

Really hate that outlook on things, and I've hated it since vanilla. "Actual adults who have to go to work for a living play this game too". Such a bullshit train of thought. Raiding efficiently doesn't mean you need 4 hours a night, 5 nights a week. Lots of us are older adults with jobs, a wife, kids, bills to pay, other responsibility, and we have heroic and/or mythic on farm. Just because you raid at a high level doesn't mean you live at home off your parents. For fucks sake.

The best players in my guild are grad students and people who work 50+ hours a week.

 

[TheYanger]

The game was at its most popular when raids were extremely accessible for the first time ever (wotlk). The game is losing subs because it's 12 years old, people come back at Xpac launches thinking 'this'll reignite that magic for me', but the reality is the game is still the game, it's not like it's magically changed every time.

 

[neurosisxeno]

I think Cata at least got the questing pretty spot on. You weren't just weaving through new zones a la Northrend, Pandaria, and Draenor, you were zig-zagging around across continents. I think they need to do away with the idea of "this is a level X zone", and open them up to a more diverse level range--WoD kind of started doing this, but it sectioned them off so much it was more like Skettis, an area you can only reasonably access and do stuff at around max level. I'd like to return to "lower" zones for certain quests here and there so each zone doesn't feel like an independent world.

The game was at its most popular when raids were extremely accessible for the first time ever (wotlk). The game is losing subs because it's 12 years old, people come back at Xpac launches thinking 'this'll reignite that magic for me', but the reality is the game is still the game, it's not like it's magically changed every time.

The more accessible raids had little to do with the success of WotLK. WotLK was when the game was leaps and bounds ahead of the competition, and was basically the conclusion of the pre-established Warcraft III story. Arthas\The Lich King was THE big bad of Warcraft up until WotLK. It also was a time when Blizzard was still releasing massive amounts of new content with each expansion--which for some reason stopped after Cata--and we had Northrend, Death Knights and a unique leveling experience (the first Hero class!), new Professions, VoA\Wintergrasp, and assloads of lore. The reason WotLK was so successful is because when it was announced Blizzard went ham talking about potential storylines and zones that had people foaming at the mouth. I remember the original Azjol-Nerub announcement, an underground zone a la Quel'danas for dailies and what have you, all the talk of Wintergraps changing world PvP, the talk of vehicles allowing you to fly around the zones wreaking havoc, and the major tie-ins with the Titans courtesy of Ulduar.

WotLK was popular because everyone saw the potential, and people kept signing up to see how the final chapter in the WC3 story panned out, and it delivered on some levels, but disappointed on others. Whole zones were basically ignored the entire expansion (Scholozar was only good for farming and a cosmetic rep grind, Crystalsong was bogged down by Dalaran and went to waste, all the stuff around ICC ended up being cosmetic rather than interactive the way it was originally advertised, etc. There were so many possibilities and Blizzard hyped the crap out of everything, but failed to deliver on a lot of it. They hit enough marks (Ulduar) for people to overlook the missteps (ToGC), but ultimately by the time Cata rolled around they had set a really high bar, and then with Cata they focused more on renovating a world a majority of these people had already plowed through, then adding anything meaningful.

 

[phierce]

The best players in my guild are grad students and people who work 50+ hours a week.

Yup...exactly. My entire guild is real adults with real jobs and we're pretty damn successful. Shit just pisses me off when people make comments like above on this page.

 

[Tenebrous]

I don't get your complaints for cross-realm zoning. That seems like a benign feature to just make it seem like the zones are busy with people. It goes away when there are enough on your server in the zone I thought?

Go and try to find a worthwhile rare alive on your server. Worried you'll get a Zandalari Warbringer mount? No worries, hundreds of realm hopping spawn campers will make sure you never get one. Tired of empty leveling zones? Unfortunately, CRZ doesn't help much there (unless you call people phasing in & out good MMO design).

I'll never make my peace with LFD/LFR, but CRZ is so, so much worse. It's absolutely cancerous game design that has not improved my gameplay one fucking bit in any way at all.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

People arrived in droves when the game had most people not get past level 20. Maybe there's something to be said about the journey and not the destination.

Because it was new. Guess what, after 12 years people want more. They want to see content and have cool items. This is an adventure for them.

Having an adventurous world out there to be a part of instead of being hurried along through a guided tour safely behind velvet ropes with a nice gift shop at the end. Having a horizon you may never get to. Feels like I've been doing this lately;

http://i.imgur.com/cSMcdTd.jpg[IMG][/quote]

The Truman Show? Lol. Dude, I don't know how to break it to you... but this is a [B]video game[/B]. It's not real. And it is supposed to be fun. Not being able to see content and not being able to get cool items isn't fun.

[quote]Especially when I have to kill the end boss a few times on easier difficulties before I can do him on his 'real' difficulty. It sorta sucks the fun out of killing a boss on mythic when I've already seen him die 4-5 times on heroic.[/quote]

Too bad. But why should we care? You are a minority in this game. You are even a minority of a minority. Other mythic raiders don't care about stuff like this. So why should the majority suffer because of you? This game should not be focused on the 1%. Thankfully Blizzard seems to be moving away from this.

[quote]I really fail to see how they started catering to mythic and high-end raiders AFTER WotLK.
Maybe there's a cross communication there or something, but I don't remember it being easier to step into raiding pre-LFR than it is now. Do you think people want attunement back or something? I don't know.

[/quote]

This started well before Wotlk. Now it has reached it's peak. And 6 million players are *gone*

[quote]The best players in my guild are grad students and people who work 50+ hours a week.[/QUOTE]

Sure they are. But most people don't want to work that hard in a fucking game. How hard is that to understand? Why do you think games like Destiny or The Division are so successful?

 

[Tenebrous]

Too bad. But why should we care? You are a minority in this game. You are even a minority of a minority. Other mythic raiders don't care about stuff like this. So why should the majority suffer because of you? This game should not be focused on the 1%. Thankfully Blizzard seems to be moving away from this.

Yeah it's so good Blizzard are focusing on more difficulties instead of less original content. Bravo, Blizz!

Warlords was just a shit expansion.

 

[Robin64]

CRZ would be okay if it stopped people tapping a rare on a realm they'd hopped to.

Seriously, just stand near any of the Pandaria spawns and watch hundreds of people coming into existence and vanishing again.

 

[Tenebrous]

CRZ would be okay if it stopped people tapping a rare on a realm they'd hopped to.

Seriously, just stand near any of the Pandaria spawns and watch hundreds of people coming into existence and vanishing again.

Or they could just remove it and merge more realms... Better communities, better leveling experience, better everything (without being dicked by realm-foreigners).

 

[Robin64]

Or they could just remove it and merge more realms... Better communities, better leveling experience, better everything.

Well yeah, merged realms are the best solution. My tiny realm was only merged with other tiny realms. The end result was.. a tiny realm. And then the aforementioned hoppers.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Yeah it's so good Blizzard are focusing on more difficulties instead of less original content. Bravo, Blizz!

Warlords was just a shit expansion.

What has the number of difficulties to do with the amount of original content? Right, nothing. Why would it? Have you played Mists of Pandaria? We already had this model back then.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

WoW will never be run by Jeff "Tigole Bitties" Kaplan again. Jeff "Whoever came up with this sheer fisting of an encounter can go fuck themselves" Kaplan. Jeff "don't want you reading a book or watching TV while playing their game at the same time." Kaplan.

Yeah it's so good Blizzard are focusing on more difficulties instead of less original content. Bravo, Blizz!

Warlords was just a shit expansion.

Yeah if anything I want the encounters to be a little less gear oriented and more skill oriented, and then congealed into 1 maybe 2 difficulties again. 4 different difficulties is just watering it way down to the point that it doesn't really feel any more fulfilling to kill something on lfr, normal, or heroic. Not so much get rid of everything but mythic, but get rid of everything and make it kinda between heroic and mythic.

I feel like a lot of mythic fights like Iron Reaver, Gorefiend, Tyrant relying so heavily on gear and not so much skill is really bogging the game down. Ironically Archimonde and Mannoroth are really not as dependent I feel like.

 

[Tenebrous]

What has the number of difficulties to do with the amount of original content? Right, nothing. Why would it? Have you played Mists of Pandaria? We already had this model back then.

The more difficulties the game has had, the less raids that expansion has had.

TBC had 1 raid difficulty.
Kara
ZG
SSC
TK
MH
BT
SWP
(and Gruuls/Maggy 3 bosses total)

Wrath had 2 raid difficulties
Naxx
Ulduar
TotC
ICC
(and EoE/OS/RS 3 bosses total)

Cata had 2 (became 3) raid difficulties
BoT
BWD
Firelands
DS
(and TotFW 2 bosses total)

MoP had 3 (became 4) difficulties
HoF
ToES
ToT
SoO

WoD had 4 difficulties
Highmaul
BRF
HFC

Facts are facts.

Yeah if anything I want the encounters to be a little less gear oriented and more skill oriented, and then congealed into 1 maybe 2 difficulties again. 4 different difficulties is just watering it way down to the point that it doesn't really feel any more fulfilling to kill something on lfr, normal, or heroic. Not so much get rid of everything but mythic, but get rid of everything and make it kinda between heroic and mythic.

I feel like a lot of mythic fights like Iron Reaver, Gorefiend, Tyrant relying so heavily on gear and not so much skill is really bogging the game down. Ironically Archimonde and Mannoroth are really not as dependent I feel like.

I'm in agreement with you there.

Personally, I'm interested in more challenging tank content the most. Sitting on Xhul'horac taunting the boss when he changes colour while everyone else fucks up is driving me insane to the extent where I now pretty much just play as tank-DPS whenever I can. Cleave trinket, go!

 

[Shahadan]

The more difficulties the game has had, the less raids that expansion has had.

Facts are facts.

That doesn't prove anything lmao

Also, there are less raids because they're a ton of work and with time devs learned they wasted their time creating stuff people never experienced.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

WoW will never be run by Jeff "Tigole Bitties" Kaplan again. Jeff "Whoever came up with this sheer fisting of an encounter can go fuck themselves" Kaplan. Jeff "don't want you reading a book or watching TV while playing their game at the same time." Kaplan.

Yeah if anything I want the encounters to be a little less gear oriented and more skill oriented, and then congealed into 1 maybe 2 difficulties again. 4 different difficulties is just watering it way down to the point that it doesn't really feel any more fulfilling to kill something on lfr, normal, or heroic. Not so much get rid of everything but mythic, but get rid of everything and make it kinda between heroic and mythic.

I feel like a lot of mythic fights like Iron Reaver, Gorefiend, Tyrant relying so heavily on gear and not so much skill is really bogging the game down. Ironically Archimonde and Mannoroth are really not as dependent I feel like.

It's nice to want things. You know that this would destroy WoW, do you? Before Blizzard will get rid of LFR and normal mode, they will get rid of mythic mode. Which would probably be a good idea.

The more difficulties the game has had, the less raids that expansion has had.

Correlation does not imply causation. There are many different reasons and explanations for this development.

 

[Tenebrous]

That doesn't prove anything lmao

Also, there are less raids because they're a ton of work and with time devs learned they wasted their time creating stuff people never experienced.

To me it proves they feel they can get away with less content (and they can, for multiple reasons). If TBC had three raids, with one of them being of Highmaul standard... Sheesh, that would've been bad.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Also, there are less raids because they're a ton of work and with time devs learned they wasted their time creating stuff people never experienced.

People experienced the shit out of SoO and HFC, by the end of MoP people hated SoO because they had been beaten over the head with it for a year solid, and HFC is looking like a year and a half and people already hate it. Even if they aren't as artfully crafted, there is definitely value in having a variety of raids rather than a single monolithic raid. If it were really about people "getting time to experience it", why do they pace the release of LFR wings? You would want people in their as quick as possible when the expansion drops to keep them interested.

Not many people actually downed Kael or Vashj, but I guarantee you anyone who experienced it remembers that shitshow. Those fights were a nightmare at the time. I think Blizzard should return to the 2 raids per Tier model, because at least then you're not fighting the exact same bosses, in the exact same order, every week.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

It's nice to want things. You know that this would destroy WoW, do you? Before Blizzard will get rid of LFR and normal mode, they will get rid of mythic mode. Which would probably be a good idea.

That doesn't make any sense. They're on record as saying developing mythic is like a minuscule fraction of the time it takes to develop a raid. Hazzikostas said it was like 5% of their time.

The easier difficulties just give an instant gratification in-and-out one-and-done crowd some sense of completion for no investment and they're gone after a month or two after the expac releases. It's fostering the environment where no one has to collaborate anymore or communicate if they don't want to.

That's why they're so interested in front loading the expansions. Which is why WoD shot up to 10m people, everyone does everything in a month, and then they're gone before BRF is even out. My guess is they make the most money if people buy the expac and play it as little as possible.

I mean, what's the point of playing an MMO if you aren't interested in a time sink?

 

[Shahadan]

The joke is on people running SoO or HFC for a year and complaining like they have no free will and no option to do something else with their lives or in the game.

They space out LFR release so you're subbing another month or two, because they know many people will just unsub after that.

Really the expansions are created to be done within a month or two, and maybe come back for a patch sometimes later. It's not because Blizzard don't have time to create more or can't hire artists. It's because creating shit most people won't ever do and won't even be enough for the others who will stay regardless, isn't efficient at all.

That's why they're so interested in front loading the expansions. Which is why WoD shot up to 10m people, everyone does everything in a month, and then they're gone before BRF is even out. My guess is they make the most money if people buy the expac and play it as little as possible.

Ding ding ding

 

[Tenebrous]

The joke is actually on Blizzard & their tanking subscription numbers, but hey.

 

[Peachpies]

The joke is on people running SoO or HFC for a year and complaining like they have no free will and no option to do something else with their lives or in the game.

They space out LFR release so you're subbing another month or two, because they know many people will just unsub after that.

Really the expansions are created to be done within a month or two, and maybe come back for a patch sometimes later. It's not because Blizzard don't have time to create more or can't hire artists. It's because creating shit most people won't ever do and won't even be enough for the others who will stay regardless, isn't efficient at all.



Ding ding ding

You think they make more money from selling 1 expansion pack than from someone subscribing for almost 2 years?

 

[Shahadan]

The joke is actually on Blizzard & their tanking subscription numbers, but hey.

The only people actually bothered by that are nerds on forums, not blizzard.

 

[Tenebrous]

The only people actually bothered by that are nerds on forums, not blizzard.

Yeah I'm sure all the investors are glad to see their flagship title (with a recently bolstered workforce) with less than half the number of subs the game had at its peak.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Really the expansions are created to be done within a month or two, and maybe come back for a patch sometimes later. It's not because Blizzard don't have time to create more or can't hire artists. It's because creating shit most people won't ever do and won't even be enough for the others who will stay regardless, isn't efficient at all.

Because their strategy of forcing people into doing a bunch of shit they don't actually want to is working great--Garrisons!--also, they already made adding things most people didn't care enough to do a major feature of a previous expansion--Pet Battles!--so clearly they don't care about whether or not people really do these things.

 

[Shahadan]

Yeah I'm sure all the investors are glad to see their flagship title (with a recently bolstered workforce) with less than half the number of subs the game had at its peak.

I'm sure they are rather happy than you can abandon a 11 year old game for a year and a half and still get tens of millions of dollars each month while preparing an xpac that will bring hundreds of millions or revenue in a week.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

This design philosophy is what made WoW the most popular MMO ever by a margin of 10.

Watch these old Blizzcon videos and see how opposite they are of today.

Class Design
Dungeon Design
Raid Design


The, "only 1% of your players see the content" tired old argument has been total garbage since at least 2005 by the way. People said that back in EQ as well and it was just as invalid then as it is now.

Maybe it's finally outdated now, or maybe this guys an idiot and he doesn't know what he's talking about. They stuck him on their new MMO that failed, but then he's still in charge of Overwatch? Who knows?

 

[Tenebrous]

Because their strategy of forcing people into doing a bunch of shit they don't actually want to is working great--Garrisons!--also, they already made adding things most people didn't care enough to do a major feature of a previous expansion--Pet Battles!--so clearly they don't care about whether or not people really do these things.

It's exactly as you say.

The game isn't catering to a single 1%, but many 1% at the same time. I've a friend who does pretty much nothing but pet battles, and she absolutely loves it, so good for her. I wonder how many pets she has now... 718 unique.

I'm sure they are rather happy than you can abandon a 11 year old game for a year and a half and still get tens of millions of dollars each month while preparing an xpac that will bring hundreds of millions or revenue in a week.

Of course, but they'd be happier with more.

 

[Shahadan]

Of course, but they'd be happier with more.

There is no "more". I can't believe people imagine Blizzard as some people watching helplessly their office burn wondering what to do and never finding the idea to use water.

They could create more content patches, they just estimate it's not worth the investment. It doesn't bring that much people back, and not even for long. They've even said as much multiple times.

Everything is designed to be done with in a short time. Leveling to max can be done within a week when an expansion drops, and then there isn't much to do. It's not bad luck, it's designed that way.

Anyway, we're just having this dumb discussion for the 653846th time and we're gonna have it next year when there is nothing to do or to look forward to and people wonder in amazement what could have again happened THIS time.

 

[Tenebrous]

There is no "more". I can't believe people imagine Blizzard as some people watching helplessly their office burn wondering what to do and never finding the idea to use water.

They could create more content patches, they just estimate it's not worth the investment. It doesn't bring that much people back, and not even for long. They've even said as much multiple times.

Everything is designed to be done with in a short time. Leveling to max can be done within a week when an expansion drops, and then there isn't much to do. It's not bad luck, it's designed that way.

Anyway, we're just having this dumb discussion for the 653846th time and we're gonna have it next year when their is nothing to do or to look forward to and people wonder in amazement what could have again happened THIS time.

I meant more subscribers/money - I don't disagree with any of your post, as of course it's all business decisions made by people a lot smarter than ourselves.

 

[Shahadan]

More importantly, when do we get this amazing idea in WoW?

 

[TheYanger]

I think Cata at least got the questing pretty spot on. You weren't just weaving through new zones a la Northrend, Pandaria, and Draenor, you were zig-zagging around across continents. I think they need to do away with the idea of "this is a level X zone", and open them up to a more diverse level range--WoD kind of started doing this, but it sectioned them off so much it was more like Skettis, an area you can only reasonably access and do stuff at around max level. I'd like to return to "lower" zones for certain quests here and there so each zone doesn't feel like an independent world.



The more accessible raids had little to do with the success of WotLK. WotLK was when the game was leaps and bounds ahead of the competition, and was basically the conclusion of the pre-established Warcraft III story. Arthas\The Lich King was THE big bad of Warcraft up until WotLK. It also was a time when Blizzard was still releasing massive amounts of new content with each expansion--which for some reason stopped after Cata--and we had Northrend, Death Knights and a unique leveling experience (the first Hero class!), new Professions, VoA\Wintergrasp, and assloads of lore. The reason WotLK was so successful is because when it was announced Blizzard went ham talking about potential storylines and zones that had people foaming at the mouth. I remember the original Azjol-Nerub announcement, an underground zone a la Quel'danas for dailies and what have you, all the talk of Wintergraps changing world PvP, the talk of vehicles allowing you to fly around the zones wreaking havoc, and the major tie-ins with the Titans courtesy of Ulduar.

WotLK was popular because everyone saw the potential, and people kept signing up to see how the final chapter in the WC3 story panned out, and it delivered on some levels, but disappointed on others. Whole zones were basically ignored the entire expansion (Scholozar was only good for farming and a cosmetic rep grind, Crystalsong was bogged down by Dalaran and went to waste, all the stuff around ICC ended up being cosmetic rather than interactive the way it was originally advertised, etc. There were so many possibilities and Blizzard hyped the crap out of everything, but failed to deliver on a lot of it. They hit enough marks (Ulduar) for people to overlook the missteps (ToGC), but ultimately by the time Cata rolled around they had set a really high bar, and then with Cata they focused more on renovating a world a majority of these people had already plowed through, then adding anything meaningful.

What I'm saying is that easier content doesn't tank your subs, despite what people try to say. Having 4 difficulties including a braindead mode doesn't tank your subs. WotLK had all that and was the MOST successful period. it had literally the easiest heroics the game has ever had, and it had 4 difficulties for raids.

The game is 'tanking' subs because it's 12 years old. Period.

 

[Bisnic]

What I'm saying is that easier content doesn't tank your subs, despite what people try to say. Having 4 difficulties including a braindead mode doesn't tank your subs. WotLK had all that and was the MOST successful period. it had literally the easiest heroics the game has ever had, and it had 4 difficulties for raids.

The game is 'tanking' subs because it's 12 years old. Period.

While I do not disagree that a 12 years old game cannot have the subs it used to get 6+ years ago, it is not the only reason.

If it was, WoD wouldn't have been a major success at launch, people would have ignored it.
There's more to it than just "the game is old". Lack of compelling content at end game would be a major one I think.

 

[strafer]

12 years old.

I refuse to believe it.

 

[Tenebrous]

12 years old.

I refuse to believe it.

It's ridiculous. I was a teen when WoW came out, and now I'm pushing 30... Insane.

 

[TheYanger]

While I do not disagree that a 12 years old game cannot have the subs it used to get 6+ years ago, it is not the only reason.

If it was, WoD wouldn't have been a major success at launch, people would have ignored it.
There's more to it than just "the game is old". Lack of compelling content at end game would be a major one I think.

Subs drop off after the expansion hits regardless. they spiked so high ebcause the levelling content was awesome and that generated great word of mouth. Once people max out they don't even do the content that does exist before they quit.

MoP and Cata both had large dropoffs after launch as well, and they both had significantly more to do endgame than WoD did. People keep confusing what I'm saying as some defense for wod, but the reality is that this is inevitable regardless of the quality of content, short of them making an entirely different game (which is ridiculous from all angles, if they wanted to do that they'd just make an actual new game).

"Oh they make you do the same thing on lfr then normal then heroic then mythic how can it be fun" is a fun exercise, since I almost guarantee most of the people saying that haven't done it on a single difficulty. They could just resub once at the end of the xpac and see all fo the content, but they don't. If anything the new expansion spike is even more stupid when you think of it in those terms, like if I had 1 month per xpac that I was going to invest, the one right after the last patch hits is DEFINITELY going to have vastly more to do and have it all still be at least reasonably relevant, but people don't. They're interested in reigniting a fervor for the game that nothing can actually reignite.

 

[Melhisedek]

Guys are there any addons that would help me automate auctions selling. Back in the days I think I used one that would record all the items at AH and than give me recommendation based on how much I wanted to undercut.

Anything like that that I can use right now?

 

[strafer]

It's ridiculous. I was a teen when WoW came out, and now I'm pushing 30... Insane.

hehe same here.

29

we're so old now

 

[TheYanger]

Guys are there any addons that would help me automate auctions selling. Back in the days I think I used one that would record all the items at AH and than give me recommendation based on how much I wanted to undercut.

Anything like that that I can use right now?

Auctionator will let you set a default undercut amount or percentage.

 

[Anoregon]

Subs drop off after the expansion hits regardless. they spiked so high ebcause the levelling content was awesome and that generated great word of mouth. Once people max out they don't even do the content that does exist before they quit.

MoP and Cata both had large dropoffs after launch as well, and they both had significantly more to do endgame than WoD did. People keep confusing what I'm saying as some defense for wod, but the reality is that this is inevitable regardless of the quality of content, short of them making an entirely different game (which is ridiculous from all angles, if they wanted to do that they'd just make an actual new game).

"Oh they make you do the same thing on lfr then normal then heroic then mythic how can it be fun" is a fun exercise, since I almost guarantee most of the people saying that haven't done it on a single difficulty. They could just resub once at the end of the xpac and see all fo the content, but they don't. If anything the new expansion spike is even more stupid when you think of it in those terms, like if I had 1 month per xpac that I was going to invest, the one right after the last patch hits is DEFINITELY going to have vastly more to do and have it all still be at least reasonably relevant, but people don't. They're interested in reigniting a fervor for the game that nothing can actually reignite.

I definitely agree that sub decline at some rate is inevitable, but of course the rate it happens depends on the quality/quantity of content available at any given point., and the rate at which new content comes out. The fact that Blizzard is so bad at the second point is why we see such spikes and valleys in sub numbers instead of a steadier wave as new expansions are released.

Also I don't think the idea that people bought WoD because they heard good word of mouth about the leveling to be very likely at all. The huge sub spike was based on pre-order and launch day purchases because of the overall idea that WoD was some kind of return to form for "real" warcraft, which appealed to folks who either didn't like the Pandaria aesthetic or hadn't played in years regardless. They weren't like, waiting around for a week for people to tell them "yeah man it's got great questing, you should buy it."

 

[TheYanger]

I definitely agree that sub decline at some rate is inevitable, but of course the rate it happens depends on the quality/quantity of content available at any given point., and the rate at which new content comes out. The fact that Blizzard is so bad at the second point is why we see such spikes and valleys in sub numbers instead of a steadier wave as new expansions are released.

Also I don't think the idea that people bought WoD because they heard good word of mouth about the leveling to be very likely at all. The huge sub spike was based on pre-order and launch day purchases because of the overall idea that WoD was some kind of return to form for "real" warcraft, which appealed to folks who either didn't like the Pandaria aesthetic or hadn't played in years regardless. They weren't like, waiting around for a week for people to tell them "yeah man it's got great questing, you should buy it."

Word of mouth spreads heavily from betas and whatnot. LOTS of people played it in beta and saw the early experience. Go read the threads from when it was coming out even here on gaf, it was absolutely word of mouth. If quality of content was the deciding factor, people would resub for stuff like throne of thunder/isle of thunder in droves, but they don't. They come when an xpac hits and quit hwen they hit max level. These people don't have any idea what is going on in the game besides questing at this point.