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[Tacitus_]

This is exactly my problem with WoW and why I left. Way too much over simplifying and hand-holding. They took away all decision making and thinking players had to do when it came to stats and talent tree choices and pretty much said you'll play the class the way we want you to play the class. So, like you said, all you need to do is grab gear and equip it and not concern yourself with the stats on it. They may as well take out "Cloth", Plate", "Leather" and "Chain" armor types and have it so all gear can be equipable by all classes and it will automatically adjust to whichever armor type your class can use.

All that decision making of going to Elitist Jerks and using their class spreadsheets. There were a couple dozen guys crunching the math and the rest of us just following their conclusions. Or Simcraft after they released it. Now you too could math out your gear!
And talent choices? Eh, you had maybe 5 points worth of fudging around and the rest of your 50+ points had to go to certain talents.

You don't have to like the new system, but please don't pretend the old system was any better.

 

[ZenaxPure]

RIP Elitist Jerks. Too elitist for your own good. I'll never forget you for introducing me to M83.

 

[Bisnic]

This is the same kind of argument people are having when comparing Mass Effect 1 and its sequels(although ME3 did a much better job than ME2 on that side) for the RPG stuff.

Lots more "choices" back then, but most of them just gave +1% in something. Some talents you actually didnt care about, but just used them because it unlocks something you want.

The new system, while having less "choices", actually allows for some kind of customization and what you select actually makes a difference compare to what you didn't choose.

Yet people just look at the quantity of stuff to click on (or to look at) to judge that a game is more "RPG".

More talents/more texts ≠ more RPG.

 

[Setzer]

You don't have to like the new system, but please don't pretend the old system was any better.

It was better. Choice is better. Actually having to plan out your gear and stats is better. I enjoyed that part of the game and I understand some didn't like it. I'm happy you enjoy the new system but I don't. To each their own.

 

[cdyhybrid]

It was better. Choice is better. Actually having to plan out your gear and stats is better. I enjoyed that part of the game and I understand some didn't like it. I'm happy you enjoy the new system but I don't. To each their own.

The point is that there was never "choice", only the illusion of it. For the vast majority of WOW's existence there has been one optimal way to build your character/spec, and doing anything else was voluntarily gimping yourself.

 

[ZenaxPure]

The point is that there was never "choice", only the illusion of it. For the vast majority of WOW's existence there has been one optimal way to build your character/spec, and doing anything else was voluntarily gimping yourself.

And the weird part of this argument (which you've already pointed out and were completely ignored) is that it still exists. Like on my rogue who is assassination I can go and get a full set of gear with haste/vers on it (which isn't hard cause every time I get a fucking HFC cache it's that damned haste/vers agility cape) and do shit damage because those stats do basically nothing for my spec. It's not like the option to be bad was taken away or anything, they've just been smoothing out the edges over the years and getting rid of the really stupid stuff.

Pretending ilvl is the only thing that matters is... I don't even know. Like it's objectively not true.

 

[Tacitus_]

It was better. Choice is better. Actually having to plan out your gear and stats is better. I enjoyed that part of the game and I understand some didn't like it. I'm happy you enjoy the new system but I don't. To each their own.

There was no real choice back then. You had to put in 20 points to a tree to unlock the meaningful talent and of those, about 18 were mandatory. And even for those 2 filler points, the choices were usually "which of these is less useless", occasionally choosing between PVP and PVE talents.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Old talent trees are intertwined with old class design + itemization decisions. If you thought your class was versatile and had real choices to make, it was more likely a function of the whole system working together in your favor (see vanilla rogues, shamans, warriors in epic plate). The problem was that there were inescapable mathematical realities that made some specs, when combined with poor itemization and class design problems, 'the wrong choice' 100% of the time (see anybody who wanted to play balance/feral druid). If you miss the old system, try to remember that it wasn't just the talent trees that made your choices meaningful. If anything, getting 1% damage on Sinister Strike was the least important part of that decision making.

 

[Zackat]

It was better. Choice is better. Actually having to plan out your gear and stats is better. I enjoyed that part of the game and I understand some didn't like it. I'm happy you enjoy the new system but I don't. To each their own.

There was no choice. If you played in a top guild you made a spreadsheet and picked up only best in slot stuff. Spreadsheets are trash, I'd rather play the video game.

 

[Andiie]

I think arguing there was no choice in the old systems to shutdown what he said is missing the point somewhat. Regardless of whether people think he is wrong or not, there had to be something to the old systems that has many different people arriving at the same opinion.

I think it'd be more interesting to find out exactly what that is and what people feel is missing and see if it's possible to somehow find a way to get that back into the current game while still adhering to the current game's design.

 

[Tenebrous]

Looks like we're planning nothing in Legion. PvP gear coming entirely from a strongbox system is seriously the dumbest thing I've seen in my gaming life... Holy fuck what a stupid idea.

 

[Data West]

Already told my raid team I'm playing a warlock for Legion. Just need to figure out what spec since it seems like a huge commitment this expansion.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Looks like we're planning nothing in Legion. PvP gear coming entirely from a strongbox system is seriously the dumbest thing I've seen in my gaming life... Holy fuck what a stupid idea.

The idea is that gear is entirely inconsequential in PVP. The boxes are just a way to get gear through PVP.

 

[Tenebrous]

Then remove it entirely instead of having it give a percentage buff to players that don't need it.

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

I think people just REALLY LIKE clicking in the boxes on talent trees.

 

[Tamanon]

I too miss the days of Wand Specialization being mandatory.

 

[cdyhybrid]

It's just MMO nostalgia goggles.

Which is silly, because Everquest was so much better

 

[CarbonatedFalcon]

Rough night on Archimonde missing two rogues :/ Only got to Phase 3 a few times.

 

[Tamanon]

It's just MMO nostalgia goggles.

Which is silly, because Everquest was so much better

SoW plz

 

[Nudull]

I've been meaning to get into WoW again and find people to buddy up/talk with, but the community has become so damn toxic.

 

[carlsojo]

I've been meaning to get into WoW again and find people to buddy up/talk with, but the community has become so damn toxic.

Ditto. A GAF guild is getting started soon and it should be relatively less toxic.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1209488

Still working on the server/side.

 

[Rösti]

I'd join an EU NeoGAF guild. Though my main will remain in my current guild.

 

[witchedwiz]

Already told my raid team I'm playing a warlock for Legion. Just need to figure out what spec since it seems like a huge commitment this expansion.

on a serious note, i share your sentiment, but we'll see..
maybe blizz will give us some catch-up mechanism for secondary spec or it will be like this:
first patch certain X cap for the artifact upgrade
second patch certain Y cap for the artifact upgrade
and so on..
this way, when you cap the "main spec" (which should they follow this route, it's something that must be doable in a month tops..) you switch your artifact and gather stuff for the alt spec...
but we'll see

 

[witchedwiz]

I'd join an EU NeoGAF guild. Though my main will remain in my current guild.

same..
I'd join as an off-rooster with an alt for an eu gaf guild (server is not important.. i still have the old insta 90, and the new insta 100, so yeah..), though my main would stay on in my eu ally guild..
I'd favor an ally guild, but that's not strictly needed

Imagine.. doing a raid at friday night with yoshi-chan.. I mean, when I'm not out on friday night, i drink something and get cozy doing pugs run (at least during "normal" phase.. now it's "wait-for-the-new-expansion-after-a-shit-load-of-time-with-the-same-raid phase")..
doing that with some gaffer would add some quality-time feeling to it

 

[jaundicejuice]

The talk of a GAF WoW guild got me thinking, raiding and doing mythic content was something I didn't do in WoD and don't really see myself getting into with like two months left before pre-patch, however raiding is something I want to get into in Legion. Part of the problem is being on an EST NA server, Dalaran, while living on the west coast. A few days ago I ended up switching servers and factions to get on to Proudmoore. I didn't pay to transfer any toon, just rolled a Mistweaver Monk. Almost 50, just spamming that exp boost quest and the 3 min dungeon queue as a healer. I want to say I'll roll one of each healer for Legion but not knowing what the time investment is going to be for the Artifact, it's probably safer to focus on just one. I'll try to get one of each to cap and go from there.

Now this is probably going to sound stupid but how do you go about joining guilds?

The organic experience of meeting and running into other players from your server repeatedly in PVE and dungeons is pretty much absent from this game. If I was playing TF2 or CS I would play on a few pubs with the same people, over time add them to my friend list, get invited to their clan, create one with them or not even worry about being in a clan and just play on the same server. That's just absent from WoW, in the year or so I've been playing. The closest I've gotten is running a few consecutive dungeons with a random good group of players from a bunch of different servers in the Dungeon Finder. On Dalaran I've accepted a few invites from random guilds and those have almost always been like carrying the toxic cesspool of Trade with you wherever you go. When I feel like I have to ignore the most active chatters in the guild I usually just leave it.

I understand I'll have to pay my dues, learn how to properly play whichever healer I settle on (or get directed towards playing based off of what's most desired), slug my way through LFR, learn the raid content in Legion, PUG through Normal, hit certain gear levels, have the Oprah Legendary(ies) and Artifact up to a certain power level, hopefully with a casual guild that has a few other members interested in dabbling in raiding. Maybe work my way up to a serious raiding guild, time permitting. But how do you bridge that gap? Go from I want to raid but mostly just play PVE by myself and the highest difficulty group content I've done is Heroic WoD 5-mans as a DPS in the Dungeon Finder to being an actual raider in a guild and playing Mythic 5-mans. Just accept the random invites until you find a guild that doesn't seem like it's Global Barrens Chat with a roster that's 2/3rds inactive lvl 58 DK's?

Get a healer to cap, do the proving grounds so I can run Heroic/Mythic content, be geared, have my artifact/legendary up to snuff in Legion, run LFR, PUG Nomral...annnd success?

 

[TheYanger]

wowprogress.com find a guild with hours you like, you can search for them using the tool there. If you're truly just starting out in terms of raids, check your realm's forums or the guild recruitment forums on the official site http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/1011639/

If you can get geared up/ready to go quickly at an expansion launch, you'll find a group easily, though it's ideal to find one before then if you can. All just depends on how hardcore you want to be, which is much more about mentality/seriousness about your own play level than it is about time spent tbh. I mean there are quality guilds that raid very little but get a lot done in that time by not dicking around being bad, or there are super casual guilds where you've got grandmas speccing whatever they want and just going at their own pace. Not being derisive with that, just saying there's a huge range of options there and finding what suits you is going to be best. Even someone like me, I like having fun, I like dicking around in raids, but it's impossible/intolerable for me to not take my own play seriously or want to play with others in the same mindset at the same time. For others it's not like that.

 

[Anoregon]

on a serious note, i share your sentiment, but we'll see..
maybe blizz will give us some catch-up mechanism for secondary spec or it will be like this:
first patch certain X cap for the artifact upgrade
second patch certain Y cap for the artifact upgrade
and so on..
this way, when you cap the "main spec" (which should they follow this route, it's something that must be doable in a month tops..) you switch your artifact and gather stuff for the alt spec...
but we'll see

They actually revealed a big part of the catch-up mechanic a couple of days ago in the latest alpha patch:

Max-level players in this build may notice an important new Artifact feature. The researcher/scribe NPC in your Class Hall will offer you a quest to retrieve a set of tomes from around the world. Once these are recovered, you can instruct your researcher to work on deciphering these tomes. Each step of research will require some Order Resources (which are primarily obtained through World Quests), and will grant increased "Artifact Knowledge."

Increasing Artifact Knowledge permanently increases your rate of Artifact Power gains, and this bonus applies to all artifact weapons your character may possess. (And no, Artifact Power items obtained at a lower Knowledge level won't automatically update, so hoarding items for future use won't benefit you.) This system is key to the pacing of overall artifact progression, and to making it easier for players to maintain multiple artifacts if they so desire. For example, at Knowledge Level 7, you would be earning Artifact Power at over triple the base rate. Thus, if you wanted to switch to a spec you hadn't yet tried at that point, you'd find yourself very quickly able to get that artifact up to par with your primary one.

As your scribes progress through their translation and research, you will fill in pages of a great tome in your Class Hall that provides more backstory and information about your artifact (this is not yet fully hooked up for some classes). Finally, in the live game, the speed at which your researchers can work will increase as the expansion progresses, allowing latecomers or alts to catch up on their artifact progress.

The tuning of the experience and Knowledge curves is still in flux.

 

[Nokterian]

I'd join an EU NeoGAF guild. Though my main will remain in my current guild.

Same to be honest i have been on Emerald Dream EU since launch i am willing to bring my warlock or other class to another realm and get in a gaf guild to be honest because the guild i am in right now? Pretty much dead even ED is dead at this point.

 

[Robin64]

Sounds like a good catchup system to me.

 

[strafer]

Modern WoW in a nutshell. Holy shit.

This kinda makes me sad. I love stats.

Diablo 3 has the perfect stat window.

 

[King Gilga]

Honestly the new talent system gives more genuine choice than the illusion of choice the more "complex" system had. And there's still more stats than there should be, multistrike especially was a bizarre design choice and it's good it will be gone.

I preferred the illusion of choice then, it was much more fun.

Not to mention there's not any real choice now either.

This kinda makes me sad. I love stats.

Not as sad as this weeks flash, now that was a shitshow, even more dissapointing than WoD.

 

[strafer]

I preferred the illusion of choice then, it was much more fun.

Not to mention there's not any real choice now either.



Not as sad as this weeks flash, now that was a shitshow, even more dissapointing than WoD.

Okay? It has nothing to do with WoW but okay.

 

[Touchdown]

Technical question for you peeps -

I was thinking of upgrading my hard drive, is there a way to save and backup all my WoW data and settings (including addons and such) easily and cleanly and transfer it to my new hard drive? I never have upgraded a hard drive before without just buying a new computer lol. Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[Lomax]

I preferred the illusion of choice then, it was much more fun.

Not to mention there's not any real choice now either.

"Fun" is nebulous and subjective, but yes seeing numbers go up and making choices can be compelling, otherwise clicker games and the like wouldn't be so popular. Ironically the garrison fully embraced a lot of that concept and we see how well that went over. However, I would argue that a lot more of that fun came from the novelty of the system and the experience in general. If WoW had started with the system we have now and changed into the system we had then, the complaints would probably be the same or even worse.

Also, people have way more alts now. For vanilla and most of BC I had one max level character. I now have four, and that's less than almost everyone I know. I don't need a bunch of subtle warlock variants when I can just go play my mage or shaman instead.

Technical question for you peeps -

I was thinking of upgrading my hard drive, is there a way to save and backup all my WoW data and settings (including addons and such) easily and cleanly and transfer it to my new hard drive? I never have upgraded a hard drive before without just buying a new computer lol. Thanks in advance for the help.

The WoW installation is gloriously easy to move and back up, just copy or move the folder wherever you want and then on your new install tell battle.net where it is. All your addons and settings will go with the folder.

 

[Entropia]

Technical question for you peeps -

I was thinking of upgrading my hard drive, is there a way to save and backup all my WoW data and settings (including addons and such) easily and cleanly and transfer it to my new hard drive? I never have upgraded a hard drive before without just buying a new computer lol. Thanks in advance for the help.

I believe you will want to back up the Interface and WTF folders.

Actually Lomax is right as well, if you have both drives going you can copy/paste from one to the other.

 

[Entropia]

So the tickets for BlizzCon today were sold out in like...5 minutes?

 

[HarryDemeanor]

Got my tickets. Excited.

 

[Data West]

need 6 tomes for next week and i'll have my stupid ring on my dk

 

[Nokterian]

This kinda makes me sad. I love stats.

Diablo 3 has the perfect stat window.

I keep tinkering with Diablo 3 every time when i want to do a optimal stats for higher rifts.

A shame they removed it all and simplified it all in WoW...

 

[EverythingShiny]

wowprogress.com find a guild with hours you like, you can search for them using the tool there. If you're truly just starting out in terms of raids, check your realm's forums or the guild recruitment forums on the official site http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/1011639/

If you can get geared up/ready to go quickly at an expansion launch, you'll find a group easily, though it's ideal to find one before then if you can. All just depends on how hardcore you want to be, which is much more about mentality/seriousness about your own play level than it is about time spent tbh. I mean there are quality guilds that raid very little but get a lot done in that time by not dicking around being bad, or there are super casual guilds where you've got grandmas speccing whatever they want and just going at their own pace. Not being derisive with that, just saying there's a huge range of options there and finding what suits you is going to be best. Even someone like me, I like having fun, I like dicking around in raids, but it's impossible/intolerable for me to not take my own play seriously or want to play with others in the same mindset at the same time. For others it's not like that.

This. TheYanger has some great advice here. Think about what you want out of a guild. Use the official realm forums as the Proudmoore one is quite active. Wowprogress is also good. There are tons and tons of raiding guilds on Proudmoore. I'd recommend trying to find a well-established one.

If you want to gear up before finding a guild, OpenRaid is fantastic. I've mentioned it several times here, as have others. Typically pretty good pugs that are mostly guild runs. That'll help a lot when you're just starting out.

Since it's the end of the expansion, guilds are bleeding members like crazy. It's a pretty good time to find a spot, as a lot of guilds are recruiting for Legion. Just gotta make it through the next 4 months, heh.

 

[jaundicejuice]

wowprogress.com find a guild with hours you like, you can search for them using the tool there. If you're truly just starting out in terms of raids, check your realm's forums or the guild recruitment forums on the official site http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/1011639/

If you can get geared up/ready to go quickly at an expansion launch, you'll find a group easily, though it's ideal to find one before then if you can. All just depends on how hardcore you want to be, which is much more about mentality/seriousness about your own play level than it is about time spent tbh. I mean there are quality guilds that raid very little but get a lot done in that time by not dicking around being bad, or there are super casual guilds where you've got grandmas speccing whatever they want and just going at their own pace. Not being derisive with that, just saying there's a huge range of options there and finding what suits you is going to be best. Even someone like me, I like having fun, I like dicking around in raids, but it's impossible/intolerable for me to not take my own play seriously or want to play with others in the same mindset at the same time. For others it's not like that.

I did not know these were even things. Out of habit I just avoid most company official forums other than the technical support ones because they're usually pretty toxic. I mostly just read this thread and check out r/wow. I'll definitely check out the realm message board as a starting point. I probably need to start off playing with the grannies in a casual guild and grind my way up my way up. Been using mistyteahouse as a guide while I level my monk. I've never used add-ons like WeakAuras, so stuff like this looks super helpful: http://www.mistyteahouse.com/lesson-1-the-basics/. Also been watching Preach videos on "how-to" Brewmaster, mostly just added the spec to solo older raid instances with, but it would be nice to get good enough to try and tank current content.

This. TheYanger has some great advice here. Think about what you want out of a guild. Use the official realm forums as the Proudmoore one is quite active. Wowprogress is also good. There are tons and tons of raiding guilds on Proudmoore. I'd recommend trying to find a well-established one.

If you want to gear up before finding a guild, OpenRaid is fantastic. I've mentioned it several times here, as have others. Typically pretty good pugs that are mostly guild runs. That'll help a lot when you're just starting out.

Since it's the end of the expansion, guilds are bleeding members like crazy. It's a pretty good time to find a spot, as a lot of guilds are recruiting for Legion. Just gotta make it through the next 4 months, heh.

Yeah, I switched to Proudmoore because of how active I've read its raiding scene is and it's in my timezone. The faction/server switch is a little rough because of the lack of resources but hopefully it will pay off for Legion. I'll try to land in a guild sooner rather than later but first I want to hit cap, get my proving grounds stuff out of the way and sort out some things so I don't look like a beggar, hat in hand.

 

[Data West]

I don't really have the issue with the Destruction changes that some people have had so far. I guess a lot of it is 'RNG is Blizzard's Solution to everything' but Destro has always felt so boring but effective to me. And that's from someone who played Elemental for a long time. Stuff like Wreak Havoc and the Rain of Fire Artifact stuff looks really interesting and it's too early to say since they just put it out.

All three lock specs look good right now, honestly.

 

[B-Dubs]

Yeah, I switched to Proudmoore because of how active I've read its raiding scene is and it's in my timezone. The faction/server switch is a little rough because of the lack of resources but hopefully it will pay off for Legion. I'll try to land in a guild sooner rather than later but first I want to hit cap, get my proving grounds stuff out of the way and sort out some things so I don't look like a beggar, hat in hand.

I honestly wish I had never left, but at the time the timezone difference was killer. Part of me is tempted to go back. It was a great server when I was there.

 

[TheYanger]

I don't really have the issue with the Destruction changes that some people have had so far. I guess a lot of it is 'RNG is Blizzard's Solution to everything' but Destro has always felt so boring but effective to me. And that's from someone who played Elemental for a long time. Stuff like Wreak Havoc and the Rain of Fire Artifact stuff looks really interesting and it's too early to say since they just put it out.

All three lock specs look good right now, honestly.

It's funny when people tryto shit on RNG, it's very hard to make a class interesting or challenging to play without RNG elements involved that can give you room for your skill to shine. The only other real way to do it is make the class unbearably complex, which usually just results in button bloat or in making boss mechanics really fuck with your numbers a lot (high variance in performance) due to how much setup you're performing to hit the 'right' output). RNG in class design in wow is so much more about moment to moment gameplay than actually affecting your output, since it's virtually impossible for random events that are within a few percent of each other to matter over the course of several minutes of fighting, aside from how well you respond to it.

 

[Tacitus_]

It's funny when people tryto shit on RNG, it's very hard to make a class interesting or challenging to play without RNG elements involved that can give you room for your skill to shine. The only other real way to do it is make the class unbearably complex, which usually just results in button bloat or in making boss mechanics really fuck with your numbers a lot (high variance in performance) due to how much setup you're performing to hit the 'right' output). RNG in class design in wow is so much more about moment to moment gameplay than actually affecting your output, since it's virtually impossible for random events that are within a few percent of each other to matter over the course of several minutes of fighting, aside from how well you respond to it.

There's RNG and there's RNG. Reacting to procs is fun, but

Mastery: Chaotic Energies
Your Destruction spells deal up to 40% (with Mastery from typical gear) additional damage, randomly.

is ehhhhh.

And I personally hate the "have it or don't have it" mechanic for generating soulshards compared to building Embers bit by bit, but it seems they've made it not so frustration prone as Affliction on live.

 

[Data West]

that Wreak Havoc tho

 

[B-Dubs]

There's RNG and there's RNG. Reacting to procs is fun, but

is ehhhhh.

That'd probably be more fun as a proc or a DoT that has synergy with another ability.

 

[TheYanger]

There's RNG and there's RNG. Reacting to procs is fun, but

is ehhhhh.

And I personally hate the "have it or don't have it" mechanic for generating soulshards compared to building Embers bit by bit, but it seems they've made it not so frustration prone as Affliction on live.

Eh, ok that's a little lame. unless there's ome gameplay affecting aspect of it, like your damage affects your ember gain or some shit, then I don't see the point. RNG is only important when it alters how you're playing.

 

[Data West]

Having to pug both our healers tonight on our 'progression' is the kind of thing to make me quit playing or find another guild

 

[RPGCrazied]

Apparently I'm in the Legion Alpha? How did that happen. I just checked my account today, and I have the client to download, no email or anything.

I guess check your account to make sure. Its 36 gigs tho, won't be playing it for awhile.