http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745744692?page=8#147
Nah.
And in regards to your edit, they stealth bumped the max zoom as soon as people started pointing out how dumb this change is. Lower than it was before though.
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World of Warcraft |OT7| Feel the hatred of 10,000 Murlocs
- Thread starter ampere
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http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745744692?page=8#147
Nah.
And in regards to your edit, they stealth bumped the max zoom as soon as people started pointing out how dumb this change is. Lower than it was before though.
Archimonde 'trash' showing problems: Dude has a huge mob positioned BETWEEN himself and the camera, doesn't show shit other than the fact that he's trying to lie to support his argument.
Second shot: ok, intentionally positioning the camera from inside the mob to fill as much of it with mobs as possible. solid work. Not at all misleading.
Third shot: wait for the pit lord to rear back as closely to the camera as possible, get the shot! WOO YOU DID IT!
Fourth: Again, intentionally position the camera so that the boss is literally inside of it. Cool. Nobody does this.
Fifth: K, shows that the boss is actually reasonably sized, tries to call it "I CANT SEE OVER THE BOSS"...no matter what zoom you're at if you tried to look through the boss with that angle, you wouldn't see past him. He's basically level to the floor.
Sixth: once again taking a bullshit where the boss is between his toon and his camera. Pretty solid strat.
EDIT: Here's a shot I just took, what fighting a Fel Reaver ACTUALLY lookslike. These are basically the largest enemies in the game.
"These are bullshit because I say so."
Okay. Productive discussion. The camera zoom out hurts no one and there are literally no downsides that nerfing the max zoom actually fixes. It's just Blizzard taking a chainsaw to a problem that required a scalpel, as usual.
This whole "people whine about everything" thing is getting real old. When Blizzard makes stupid changes like this people have every right to complain. This is a terrible change for no good reason and will severely effect the way many people play.
I didn't realize listing the reasons why the shots were intentionally misleading was the same as "Cause I said so".
The zoom out becomes the norm, and the game actually has always broken visually because of it. Remember Scarlet monastery? you could see the fucking void under the world with max camera. It makes the game look worse at the expense of " but I need to see more to be effective!"
A) youdon't. If you do you're literally awful at wow.
B) they don't want people to experience the game looking bad like that.
Seems simple to me. I could care less whether they cut it down or not, mechanics that were designed to not work well with the default camera that has always existed ARE BADLY DESIGNED. Call them on that shit. That doesn't mean the camera being restricted is the cause.
Trying to argue that Blizzard might be doing something dumb with TheYanger is like arguing with the sun to not come up. No matter what you do, you will never change his mind, it's not worth your time.
Solid counterpoint. You're so rational, and smart. If your argument against my point is "It's TheYanger saying it" you should reconsider what makes you feel the way you do about that point.
If they don't change the camera, it won't affect me.
If they do, it won't affect me.
Why? Because it doesn't actually change how I play the game at all, even though I zoom out as far as possible.
Even someone like me has noticed plenty of times when zooming so far out made the game actively look bad though, so I GET why they want to do that. Anything that functions worse because of it, bitch to them and make them fix it. The camera zooming out isn't the way you solve those problems.
You always defend Blizzard no matter what they do, here they are removing a way people have been playing for years and you think it's dumb for them to want it back, what else is there to say?
It's pointless to argue with you.
You could say why I'm wrong, instead of "CHANGE IS BAD"
1) You accused him of explicitly positioning the camera angle to make it look worse without a shred of evidence to back up that claim. That's what I was referring to.
2) Maybe Blizzard could just fix it so you can't scroll the camera back through walls/floors/ceilings, then. Seems like that might be a decent change, eh?
3) The bad design isn't ever going away, but at least the zoom out lets us get around their dumb mechanics that need to be seen on the other side of a boss that takes up your entire screen.
Sometimes change actually is bad.
1) The evidence to back that claim up is in the fucking pictures. Do you regularly aim your camera so that the boss is in front of your screen? I didn't think so. Those aren't natural angles anyone raids at.
2) Uh..what? they don't.
3) The boss doesn't take up your entire screen. Even the shot where he tried to show exactly what you're saying, he flipped the camera DOWN so that you can't see the other side effectively. Give me mouse control, I'll never miss a mechanic because of that, and if you watch my screen you won't either. Zooming out wouldn't have helped with the way he has that screenshot oriented, period.
Of course it can be, but you still have to say WHY if you want to say that I'm wrong and you're right. I pointed out my reasoning, nobody else has.
Once again, to be clear, my argument isn't THIS IS A GOOD CHANGE, but rather 'this change shouldn't matter to people, the fact that they're up in arms over nothing is laughable'
I've said why in other posts.
And again, I'm not even arguing with you since arguing with you goes nowhere expect like 5 pages of back and forth where you never budge. I've seen this song and dance plenty of times with other people.
1) You still haven't ponied up actual evidence that he's deliberately providing only the worst angles possible. "IT'S OBVIOUS LOL" is not evidence.
2) If you can't zoom through walls it would be pretty hard to see what's behind them!
3) Depending on your position at the time and what's happening around you (which determines where you're facing/going) the boss can indeed take up your entire screen.
Anyway, this is the last post on the topic since it's obvious you aren't going to change your mind about this.
Besides, as I said before, Blizzard already stealth bumped the max zoom out back up once the negative feedback started coming in, so I'm afraid Blizzard has already caved to those silly players that complain about everything
You actually haven't. You've literally said "This is making me reconsider coming back" and then devolved immediately into "You're wrong because you're you"
Fuck that. If you can't quote my post with anything but an attack on me as a person, don't quote my fucking post. If you show me I'm wrong I'll happily concede a point, when you don't see me do that it's because people make posts like this rather than reasoned arguments.
Reasons to let you stay farther zoomed out:
Because you always have been able to.
Because it gives you more awareness.
Reasons not to let the zoom stay:
Because the art isn't designed around it (I use Scarlet Monastery as a reference/proof for this point, in fact almost any vanilla dungeon/raid can be used for this, the camera starts getting really fucked because it's zoomed so far back that it's just constantly hitting walls/ceiling/etc).
Because it becomes a matter of improved awareness that leads people to then feel forced to do it, despite the fact that it makes the game look worse as in the previous point.
Solutions: Dont' design the game around requiring an awareness level beyond what the default camera provides (They already do this, for the record, people are just 'used' to larger) and restrict the camera.
That's what they did. That's the best long term solution for the game, and the only downside is people whining about it hwen they make the change.
1) You still haven't ponied up actual evidence that he's deliberately providing only the worst angles possible. "IT'S OBVIOUS LOL" is not evidence.
2) If you can't zoom through walls it would be pretty hard to see what's behind them!
3) Depending on your position at the time and what's happening around you (which determines where you're facing/going) the boss can indeed take up your entire screen.
Anyway, this is the last post on the topic since it's obvious you aren't going to change your mind about this.
Besides, as I said before, Blizzard already stealth bumped the max zoom out back up once the negative feedback started coming in, so I'm afraid Blizzard has already caved to those silly players that complain about everything
1) Unless you want me to mind control the guy and get him to post here, you know you're trying to fish for a level of 'proof' that cannot be provided. You're being obtuse now. We both know nobody plays the game with the camera intentionally obscured, if you want to position it to do that you can do it with max zoom as well.
2) So you're admitting you don't have any idea what I mean then. I never said the camera went through the walls. If you pointed it 'down' in open aired rooms, it would zoom so far out that you could see OVER the walls into the void.
3) That's true regardless of your zoom level, you're literally saying "Depending on where you point the camera, it might fill the screen"...yeah? of course. Don't point the camera that way if you don't want that to be the result.
Regarding the last point: So in other words, they're sticking to their guns. Bumping the zoom out a few notches isn't the same as "Yes, we should continue to have a hidden option that fucks up the visuals for the few that can't get over their ability to see literally the entire world at once"
This is probably my favorite counter argument. Better remove addons too, DBM and Weakauras too strong
P.S. It wasn't a few notches. It was closer to the original max than the nerfed one
This is probably my favorite counter argument. Better remove addons too, DBM and Weakauras too strong
P.S. It wasn't a few notches. It was closer to the original max than the nerfed one
They've worked pretty hard to make sure you don't really need those to play the game. Also, those don't actively make the game worse.
PS: If that's true, why are you guys even getting your panties in a knot?
I love how that B.net thread is just filled with people calling out how dumb this change is, don't think I've even seen one person who is pro this change.
There's no way Ion actually believes what he wrote, dude is a mythic raider, he knows how important having your camera pulled all the way out helps.
There's no way Ion actually believes what he wrote, dude is a mythic raider, he knows how important having your camera pulled all the way out helps.
Zooming the camera out doesn't actively make the game worse. It was entirely opt-in and you knew the "risks" (lol - I can see outside dungeon walls, oh noez!) if you did it.
Because it's stupid and telling them it's stupid (and why) would hopefully discourage them from doing other stupid stuff.
Hope springs eternal.
Wait, you can zoom the camera out further? I've been playing the game since BC, been in a top 10 world guild, and done every raid since release and I've never known the camera can be zoomed out even more. It's really not necessary if you know what you're doing.
(Before anyone says anything.. I am Melee.)
(Before anyone says anything.. I am Melee.)
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Regardless of what you think, removing the option entirely is baffling. People used it. People wanted it. People liked it. People will flip their shit over it. Why remove it?
I'm not even melee class and the decision confuses me greatly.
I'm not even melee class and the decision confuses me greatly.
there was 0 reason never to do so, it doesnt really matter if said person "knows what they are doing", every single person i know who actively raids plays at max and always has, whether it be from the very top of the scene to us 150, you limit yourself and if you didnt know about it, then it means you dont even know what you were missing.
one of my favorite things about raiding is being able to survey an entire encounter room and make judgments based on what is happening around me.
this is still possible in legion bar 2 encounters, however the rooms were made in such a way that max distance of today wouldnt have done much now that i think about it.
Well now you know someone who doesn't
One of my RL buddies has been hardcore raiding since Vanilla. Mythic and everything.. The ONLY addon he uses is Deadly Boss Mods. I don't know how he does it, but it's possible.
The whole thing boils down to Blizzard taking away a luxury. Does it suck? Yeah. Will it make things harder for people who are used to it? Probably. But it's Blizzard's game, and they balance it how they want to.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Just a quick nitpick- that isn't exactly what happened. The Well of Eternity is literally a scar on the planet that resulted in ripping Y'shaarj out, since the Old God's were so ingrained into Azeroth itself. It wasn't the result of Y'shaarj's blood or anything like that, more like what happens if someone has a barbed arrow stuck in their gut and you just rip it out of them. The arrow is gone, and that's great, but it tore up a lot of flesh on the way out.
Well now you know someone who doesn't
One of my RL buddies has been hardcore raiding since Vanilla. Mythic and everything.. The ONLY addon he uses is Deadly Boss Mods. I don't know how he does it, but it's possible.
The whole thing boils down to Blizzard taking away a luxury. Does it suck? Yeah. Will it make things harder for people who are used to it? Probably. But it's Blizzard's game, and they balance it how they want to.
i know most people on the top of the spectrum as i reside there as well actually, for quite some time.
weak auras is mandatory and if your friend says he doesnt use it and the only addon he uses is dbm then he is playing in a very low spectrum of guild, in which case sure, you can do w.e.
letting blizzard do whatever they want without forced feedback is a terrible way of thinking, many awful changes have been reverted from the community having a voice, im not saying this is one of those completely awful changes.
but people will voice it and they very well should.
luckily blizzard doesnt think like your statement and actually does listen to feedback, much more so now then ever before, im fortunate enough to have direct contact with many employees whom were former raiders i've played with etc. and i can say this first hand.
I remember the old days of MMO gaming. When devs made a balance change the discussion was "How will this effect gameplay? How are going to adapt our strategies? How are we doing to play around this new mechanic?"
Now it's all "Waaah! Waaah!! Change it back Blizzard!!! It's not fair! Waaah!"
Man the gaming community has changed a lot.
Now it's all "Waaah! Waaah!! Change it back Blizzard!!! It's not fair! Waaah!"
Man the gaming community has changed a lot.
That's a very condescending reply. I blame it on the fact that he plays a Mage, that shit is easy mode. If can you clear Mythic Mode, you're not in the low spectrum of anything in this game.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Also I think the camera distance thing is a weird change, but that fel reaver comparison posted earlier is such disingenuous bullshit that I am now actively glad it happened because I can't stand when people try to prove a point like that.
you very much so are actually, its when you clear.
my friend plays 1 day a week and cleared 3 months ago, the most casual of the casual, he logs on once per week to raid for the entirety of the instance life cycle and cleared the raid.
hfc is a complete joke after rings, upgrades, strats
i also play a mage, and your statement on that end is empty.
it wasnt meant to be condescending, i have been clearing raids at a high level for a long time and im simply informing you that not having weak auras in todays world means you are not clearing within the high spectrum, guaranteed.
Wow, you're so cool? Can I suck your dick?
It's people like you that make the community insufferable.
I said that about the talent switching change and they stuck to their guns on it, so who knows
I actually don't think I have max camera zoom. I'm pretty sure I just play with the interface slider at max, though sometimes there is way too much clutter
care to explain?
you just used your friend in a comparison, and i used mine, you then resorted to saying that? good stuff
i actually help many people in the community with many different things, i answer every question thrown at me to the best of my ability and am known for doing so.
jaundicejuice
Member
Hey guys, how's it goi...
Nice generalizations you have made here. I'd like to know what MMO's you are talking about, as I think when a game reaches a critical mass, there is always going to be crybabies within the community(WoW, LoL, etc.) Many replies in that thread on the forums are addressing exactly those questions you mentioned, but also a fair many toxic posters exist.
If you go look at your favorite kickstarted or smaller MMORPG forums, their communities are always more serious and information based, but that would largely be attributed to their player-base being an older and more mature demographic.
Saying someone is in the low end of the spectrum if you can't clear mythic mode "in time.", then throwing your mythic clear out there like it means something? Not everyone has that mindset, in fact, a the minority has that elitest mindset. Just because that's your world doesn't mean you can condescend the accomplishments of people who don't play the game for the reasons you do.
lol holy shit you are salty asf and i can't even figure out why
it is a fact that clearing late into a tier after TWO rounds of nerfs, first with rings next with full upgrades and then full strats available all over the internet that you are within a lower spectrum of guilds that raid.
you are saying that since your friend has cleared every raid using only 1 addon it all of a sudden means that you are fine using that one addon, in which case i stated that in a low spectrum guild, yes you can use 1 addon and be happy about that as you wouldnt care about when you cleared the raid, even it was after the following patch.
knowing how to tell the difference between a high end player and a player who plays casually makes me an elitest? ill take that.
you treat it as if i personally attacked your accomplishments, perhaps you should go back and read what i've said.
you think me saying your friend plays in a low spectrum guild, as in a guild that isnt clearing at an insane rate, is an insult, i'm not understanding where you are coming from here, is it because i used the word low? well its not high so what would you prefer me say?
your friend plays casually and cleared using one addon, ok.
my friend cleared raiding one day a week the entire tier, saying that the content is very easy currently and he openly admits that and laughs about it.
If you're going to keep editing your posts to change your argument and make yourself look less insulting. I'm not wasting my time with you.
less insulting? i havent changed a thing, all ive done is add and it was within a 5 minute timeframe lol.
added two lines actually.
Pendas, you're on top of a weird high horse when you begin this conversation with this.
literally everybody.
Unless you were on it for the full 6 months and memorized archimonde rng and were very good at staring at your feet lining up beams in relation to other beams, oh also p4 marks, those would be a grand time also.
xhul and fel lord also lul
RoninChaos
Member
So any one have any thoughts on the patch making HFC harder or easier?
on the ptr theres a 30% bandaid nerf i believe, like so0
going to be much easier, even if that wasnt implemented i'd say regardless with class changes
RoninChaos
Member
I gotta say from personal experience that Millenia is the furthest from a person who makes the community insufferable.