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[ampere]

I'm weirded out by the random praise I've seen for Legion Brewmaster here and elsewhere, as someone who mained the spec for the last two expansions. We went from having 7-8 useful abilities and mechanics to keep track of in MoP/WoD, to having 2 useful abilities to keep track of in Legion... that share the same 16s cooldown... and one of them (purify) is just an old ability nerfed to be half as effective...

I logged into my Brewmaster to run some Mythic dungeons and couldn't believe how much they stripped away from the spec. I couldn't even fill a single bar with useful abilities, and what was left was just shadows of formerly fun abilities. Sure, Guard and Expel Harm had gotten too strong in those last few tiers of WoD and removed a lot of the thrill from tanking and healing, but the strength of and mix of abilities in MoP and early WoD was perfect.

Outside of watching Stagger and deciding to use Purify or Ironskin Brew, none of the abilities you press in Legion feel like they matter at all, and only serve to keep you busy and do mediocre DPS.

This is the spec design people are praising? Am I playing a different game than everyone else or something?

I've also mained Brewmaster since the start of MoP and had a lot of similar initial frustration. I think turning Elusive Brew into something totally passive, making Purifying Brew 50% and removing Guard while giving Guard with no cooldown to Prot Warriors were really frustrating, but losing Expel Harm was my biggest frustration. When they added that back during alpha to help with awkward movement situations I calmed down a bit, but honestly I still feel like a drunk, dodgy tank with high mobility, so I feel like the spec is still fun.

It takes a lot to get used to having less self sufficiency as a tank now, but I understand that design direction. At least our spec wasn't totally shit on like Blood.

I think Blackout Combo is something you've overlooked. You can use it to do more ST DPS, AoE DPS, pause your Stagger damage for 3 seconds, pull in a charge of your brews, it's up to you how you use it and it does have a noticeable effect if you do it consistently.

It's very neat in concept, but it's not quite good enough. Might be better served as a base part of the kit so that it doesn't get glossed over

Well, honestly, you just described the changes to every class. All of them are stripped down in terms of abilities. Brewmaster is now much easier to play for the average person, which is why you're seeing more praise for it. With that said, I think there's still a higher skill cap there than with some of the other tanks.

I will say this, Brewmaster was actually made either equally or even less intuitive and that's a design failure. If you only use one of the AM abilities (Ironskin Brew) without the other (Purifying Brew) you literally reduce damage taken by 0. It's not actually harder than other tanks, but not at all apparent to newer players

 

[cdyhybrid]

Current simming shows outlaw and assassination neck in neck at 840 with outlaw having a slight lead. This lead isn't enough to counter the RNG of outlaw in some peoples opinion. Sub is behind both of them.

Yeah I've seen the sims, but supposedly a lot of them are incomplete/questionable. Not to mention weeks of tuning left.

I just mentioned Sub potentially being good later on because I've seen it come up occasionally while lurking in the Rogue Discord.

 

[Kintaco]

Is Blizzard having any Launch events for Legion's launch? I haven't seen anything about that.

 

[Pendas]

Fair enough!

So what's the consensus on how classes feel going into next week? Here's what I've gathered from this thread:

Priests: Disc wonky, Holy great, Shadow awesome
Warlock: Demo apparently awful, other specs serviceable but boring
Mage: Fire is awesome, other specs unknown
Druid: unknown
DH: Strong all around, Havoc really fun
Rogue: Outlaw really fun. Other specs unknown.
Monk: Mistweaver and WW great. Brew unknown
Hunter: All specs (or just MM?) feel solid but overly pruned?
Shaman: Enhancement is fantastic. Other specs unknown.
Paladin: Solid but boring (all specs)
Warrior: overly pruned? Unknown
Death Knight: Frost feels awesome but is underperforming?

Frost DK feels awesome, but Unholy is still slightly better in Damage, much better in Utility. Blood is about the same, nothing great, nothing terrible. Didn't change much.

 

[Aeana]

I've also mained Brewmaster since the start of MoP and had a lot of similar initial frustration. I think turning Elusive Brew into something totally passive, making Purifying Brew 50% and removing Guard while giving Guard with no cooldown to Prot Warriors were really frustrating, but losing Expel Harm was my biggest frustration. When they added that back during alpha to help with awkward movement situations I calmed down a bit, but honestly I still feel like a drunk, dodgy tank with high mobility, so I feel like the spec is still fun.

It takes a lot to get used to having less self sufficiency as a tank now, but I understand that design direction. At least our spec wasn't totally shit on like Blood.



It's very neat in concept, but it's not quite good enough. Might be better served as a base part of the kit so that it doesn't get glossed over



I will say this, Brewmaster was actually made either equally or even less intuitive and that's a design failure. If you only use one of the AM abilities (Ironskin Brew) without the other (Purifying Brew) you literally reduce damage taken by 0. It's not actually harder than other tanks, but not at all apparent to newer players

I tried brewmaster in WoD and honestly I couldn't keep up with it. I'm not good at tanking at all, it's not my area, but I found brewmaster more complicated than the others I tried. In 7.0.3 I sat and read the ability tool tips and applied the abilities logically and I managed to do reasonably well all things considered. But I also felt that there was quite a bit I was missing where I could do a lot better.

 

[dimb]

I guess I didn't see the complexity or unique attributes to old Brew that made it worth saving. Doing more with Stagger seems like a route to add more unique stuff to them. The mix of pre-emptive damage mitigation with high self healing just made Brew seem too self-sufficent. You could tell just how bloated the kit was when stuff like Breath of Fire just didn't see any use.

 

[Star Falcon]

Pretty productive reset for mounts...!

The Socrethar achievement was a bit of a nightmare, the others weren't too awful though.

 

[Bregor]

Yeah I've seen the sims, but supposedly a lot of them are incomplete/questionable. Not to mention weeks of tuning left.

I just mentioned Sub potentially being good later on because I've seen it come up occasionally while lurking in the Rogue Discord.

There have been some doubts about the scaling of rupture, which would hurt assassination later on, but I haven't seen any sims showing a significant fall of.

The bottom line is that for the first tier of raiding, current evidence shows that outlaw is the best (if you can tolerate the RNG) with assassination close behind. Sub trails both of them considerably.

 

[King Gilga]

Sub better get a buff, it should never behind combat or mut single target.

Never.

If it is blizzard did something wrong.

 

[M.D]

My brewmaster is 88 and I intend on getting him to 100 today. I might die in the procces but I'm not setting foot on Draenor with this guy.

 

[borghe]

got my fury warrior from 90-100.

through invasions.

it is seriously the least fun I've ever had with wow.

"get in. do some damage. get the fuck out. literally run FAR ENOUGH AWAY that the boss mechanic doesn't kill you before he dies"

outside of that.. doing it on alliance seems even worse. you get two friendly zones, and 3 unfriendly zones, and one neutral zone.. and seemingly ALL zones rez you at a horrible graveyard. unless you are in sentinel hill or karanos. as opposed to horde where seemingly only gadgetzan and the two ally zones rez you poorly.. the other three always rez you at a timer that has plenty of other peeps so the timer is always way less than 30s.

I seriously can't express my displeasure enough. I am sure fury warrior is extremely fun.. as long as you have someone healing you. without that, out of the 8 classes I've run invasions on it is the worst experience by a significant margin.

 

[ampere]

I tried brewmaster in WoD and honestly I couldn't keep up with it. I'm not good at tanking at all, it's not my area, but I found brewmaster more complicated than the others I tried. In 7.0.3 I sat and read the ability tool tips and applied the abilities logically and I managed to do reasonably well all things considered. But I also felt that there was quite a bit I was missing where I could do a lot better.

Perhaps YMMV then, but I think the spec has an issue that all the passive defense (other than dodge) is baked into Stagger, and that might not be clear to less experienced players. The spec could probably do to have some of that mitigation moved into armor or flat DR%

I guess I didn't see the complexity or unique attributes to old Brew that made it worth saving. Doing more with Stagger seems like a route to add more unique stuff to them. The mix of pre-emptive damage mitigation with high self healing just made Brew seem too self-sufficent. You could tell just how bloated the kit was when stuff like Breath of Fire just didn't see any use.

The most fun aspects of pre-7.0 Brewmaster was reactive Expel Harm use and clearing a massive bout of Stagger. Those are both still possible since they added Expel Harm back, although it's now basically a penalty ability for not moving to a GotO orb (or if they're too far away).

I'm totally fine with Stagger being the main direction for mitigation, but I don't like the *feel* of 50% Purify. It just feels bad, like your button press didn't do much, even though it did. That's not really a mechanical concern though, it doesn't impact actual functionality.

Breath of Fire has always had a great animation, and yes I'm glad it finally has a purpose now (with an artifact trait)

 

[SolVanderlyn]

You guys wanna trade Bnet usernames? I'm solvanderlyn#1162

 

[borghe]

with that rant out of the way... I now have every invasion transmog except for the bow (lolololololololol....) and the AGI dagger which I don't have a single rogue at level 10.. haha..

 

[Anoregon]

Sub better get a buff, it should never behind combat or mut single target.

Never.

If it is blizzard did something wrong.

Sub is a spec that I have literally never played. It seems cool though?

 

[Xeteh]

Man, I wish you could make Draenor Orcs, I'm really digging the Frostwolf stuff.

 

[Anoregon]

Yeah it's pretty whack that we still can't make Mag'har (brown) orcs.

 

[Bisnic]

Quick question... is Legion's content mostly already pre-downloaded, so I do not have to expect over 15-20gb x 2(for me and the gf) of download next week?

 

[Hixx]

Quick question... is Legion's content mostly already pre-downloaded, so I do not have to expect over 15-20gb x 2(for me and the gf) of download next week?

Yes. If there's any downloading needed for next week it's going to be minimal.

 

[Anoregon]

Quick question... is Legion's content mostly already pre-downloaded, so I do not have to expect over 15-20gb x 2(for me and the gf) of download next week?

It's entirely downloaded. They literally flip a switch (well, maybe not a literal switch) next week and legion goes live. They don't even have to bring the servers down.

 

[Negator]

Sub better get a buff, it should never behind combat or mut single target.

Never.

If it is blizzard did something wrong.

Please no. I don't want to play Sub

 

[erawsd]

Quick question... is Legion's content mostly already pre-downloaded, so I do not have to expect over 15-20gb x 2(for me and the gf) of download next week?

Yeah, all Legion data is already loaded. Whats weird is that my live folder is 20gigs bigger than my beta folder for some reason.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

They probably will be eventually to counter whenever Naga are added* to whichever faction

*A misunderstood offshoot of Naga with feet

They're called Night Elves.

 

[ampere]

Yeah it's pretty whack that we still can't make Mag'har (brown) orcs.

They could even make it lore-neutral, like just allow that visual look at not change any other text

I guess maybe that's not kosher to them? idk

 

[Rixxan]

Sub better get a buff, it should never behind combat or mut single target.

Never.

If it is blizzard did something wrong.

i was watching that pikaboo kid (pro rogue i guess?) on 110 sub for a couple hours yesterday

granted hes an amazing player, but he was literally unstoppable in the arenas he was running, and his burst was fucking insane

 

[thefil]

They could even make it lore-neutral, like just allow that visual look at not change any other text

I guess maybe that's not kosher to them? idk

With all the race/class combos they've added over the years, I really don't feel like they will allow themselves to be super held back from races for lore reasons...

 

[LAUGHTREY]

i was watching that pikaboo kid (pro rogue i guess?) on 110 sub for a couple hours yesterday

granted hes an amazing player, but he was literally unstoppable in the arenas he was running, and his burst was fucking insane

Yeah he's like the best rogue? Or second?

So is your point the best rogue in the world can do well with it it's good? =p

 

[Rixxan]

Yeah he's like the best rogue? Or second?

So is your point the best rogue in the world can do well with it it's good? =p

nope, was just commenting on the fact that last night i saw someone doing insanely well with it, wasn't really pushing a point either way tbh

 

[neurosisxeno]

Sub better get a buff, it should never behind combat or mut single target.

Never.

If it is blizzard did something wrong.

Why should Sub never be behind Outlaw/Assassination? They have completely changed the dynamic of each spec, and historically Assassination has been the strongest Single-Target (at least through a majority of TBC/WotLK/Cata/MoP) and Subtlety has always relied on broken abilities and glitches (HAT is a prime example) to be good in PvE. I have no problem with 1 of the Rogue specs being a bit more PvP oriented--the illusive nature of Sub makes it the best choice.

 

[Khezu]

Male troll running animation is so silly looking.

The only way I can describe it is like, an over exaggerated pretend run. Like what a mime would.

 

[Aquavelvaman]

I decided to play my lock in some mythic 5s last night just to do the weekly, and it turned out to be way more fun that I had expected. I've been really down on warlocks since pre-patch but I'm starting to come around to destro a bit. The spec is pretty boring in single target situations without the artifact ability, but in Mythic 5s where tanks are generally doing small pulls of 2-3 mobs at a time, havoc and shadowburn just absolutely destroy. When things are working out for you, the mix of cleaving chaos bolts and shadowburns is really enjoyable.

It's really too bad that shadowburn is a talent, though, because that means the artifact traits don't interact with it at all.

 

[Doukou]

They could even make it lore-neutral, like just allow that visual look at not change any other text

I guess maybe that's not kosher to them? idk

I guess Warlock Red Orcs would be a no(?).

It's up there with Wildhammer/Dark Iron dwarf customization as being a really simple thing to add.

 

[Sajjaja]

Anyone in Horde NA that can take me for a moose run? D: No luck finding any runs in game and I'm too broke to buy one lol.

 

[Khezu]

Brown orcs/red orcs.
Red Drainei.
Trolls with good posture.
"Human" looking undead.
Crack elves.

Sub races is one thing I have wanted for WoW for a long time.
I'm not sure how much work it would take, but I would rather have that then any new class or race.

 

[vocab]

Fair enough!

So what's the consensus on how classes feel going into next week? Here's what I've gathered from this thread:

Priests: Disc wonky, Holy great, Shadow awesome
Warlock: Demo apparently awful, other specs serviceable but boring
Mage: Fire is awesome, other specs unknown
Druid: unknown
DH: Strong all around, Havoc really fun
Rogue: Outlaw really fun. Other specs unknown.
Monk: Mistweaver and WW great. Brew unknown
Hunter: All specs (or just MM?) feel solid but overly pruned?
Shaman: Enhancement is fantastic. Other specs unknown.
Paladin: Solid but boring (all specs)
Warrior: overly pruned? Unknown
Death Knight: Frost feels awesome but is underperforming?

Ele is the same with less clunky bullshit. They removed a lot of stuff that restricted this spec so much.
Bye bye chain lighting glyph, you will no longer be missed. Searing totem and casting earthquake can go fuck off.

Enhance shaman is 100% different. Is it better? Is it worse? It depends who you ask.

Resto shaman. Plays the same. They got mastery back, and hey healing stream totem is useful again. Their talents are boring imo. Unleash life a talent? LOL.

Resto and balance druid are pretty much the same. The got rid of the no control shit from WoD, and Starfall requires target aoe. Suckers.

disc is fine. could use some more buttons, but has a play style I can get behind. I'm very glad it requires some thought, and isnt broken as shit. It made healing not fun for other people.

Shadow I can see the potential. Mindsear is not fun. Voidform is fast and furious. STM will be removed after a tier.

Still undecided on ww. Like mop and wod WW. This prepatch WW...man I dont like SCK requiring 3 chi at all. It took 3 expansions for SEF to finally not be a pain.

 

[Lomax]

So I'd been leveling my gnome assuming I had to get to level 10 to do invasions, but when I crossed over to Kharanos at level 6, it gave me xp and a chest. So I guess they lowered the requirements? I tried to log out to reset like you guys discussed earlier but it wouldn't let me, I killed the game with alt-F4 but when I logged back in I was dead and the invasion was over and I had a chest in my inventory. Still, I'm glad I won't have to quest all the way to 10.

 

[zugzug]

changed mind not worth can of worms.

 

[Apathy]

went from 76 to 91 today, had to stop, my god i was dying from being so bored. i almost, for the first time ever, have a max level dk.

 

[ViciousDS]

went from 76 to 91 today, had to stop, my god i was dying from being so bored. i almost, for the first time ever, have a max level dk.

phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........




yes, it gets tiring lol

 

[Apathy]

phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........




yes, it gets tiring lol

I got back to back azshara so it was phase 1, phase 2 , run into org and run back out. Not that much better than log out but slightly less annoying.

 

[Aeana]

phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........phase 1.......phase 2.......log out......phase 1........phase 2......log out..........




yes, it gets tiring lol

Why skip phase 3 when it has so much exp?

 

[ViciousDS]

I got back to back azshara so it was phase 1, phase 2 , run into org and run back out. Not that much better than log out but slightly less annoying.

lol.....in dun morogh the inn is literally right there....so after phase 2 you can watch 200 people bolt for the inn starting phase 3

I laugh everytime.....it doesn't get old seeing the sight of it.

Why skip phase 3 when it has so much exp?

because everyone leaves after 2 and it takes way to long.

Phase 1 and 2 in Dun take roughly 7 minutes.....its insanely quick

 

[Tenebrous]

Easiest non-Weakaura way to track damage taken in the last 5 seconds? Looking for something for Frenzied Regen.

Edit: Sod it, I'll just change the overlapping priority & have this sticking out underneath what I currently have.

 

[Apathy]

Why skip phase 3 when it has so much exp?

Phase 3 takes too long, more chances to die and not get xp. easier to just keep resetting it, spamming aoe and continuing.

 

[XenodudeX]

I'm weirded out by the random praise I've seen for Legion Brewmaster here and elsewhere, as someone who mained the spec for the last two expansions. We went from having 7-8 useful abilities and mechanics to keep track of in MoP/WoD, to having 2 useful abilities to keep track of in Legion... that share the same 16s cooldown... and one of them (purify) is just an old ability nerfed to be half as effective...

I logged into my Brewmaster to run some Mythic dungeons and couldn't believe how much they stripped away from the spec. I couldn't even fill a single bar with useful abilities, and what was left was just shadows of formerly fun abilities. Sure, Guard and Expel Harm had gotten too strong in those last few tiers of WoD and removed a lot of the thrill from tanking and healing, but the strength of and mix of abilities in MoP and early WoD was perfect.

Outside of watching Stagger and deciding to use Purify or Ironskin Brew, none of the abilities you press in Legion feel like they matter at all, and only serve to keep you busy and do mediocre DPS.

This is the spec design people are praising? Am I playing a different game than everyone else or something?

Why makes me scratch my head is that they moved Guard to the pvp tree. Why?

 

[phoenix296]

Phase 3 takes too long, more chances to die and not get xp. easier to just keep resetting it, spamming aoe and continuing.

And if you don't have your flying mount it's tedious looking for mobs to kill. Especially in the Barrens.

 

[Aquavelvaman]

I feel bad for people leveling through invasions on pvp realms. I walked into the crossroads on my dk and killed like 4 night elfs with my first blood boil. Went to azshara on my hunter and one sidewinders killed a level 30 priest and a druid and I felt like a jerk.

I understand the nature of pvp realms, that you can get ganked by someone a million times more powerful than you, but I'm not even trying to kill people. They're just dying while I do my normal rotation.

 

[Aeana]

And if you don't have your flying mount it's tedious looking for mobs to kill. Especially in the Barrens.

The bosses all have a set spawn pattern. In the Barrens, when phase 3 starts, you go north and there are two bosses there, then after that, one spawns at the east side of the crossroads, then a bunch spawn on the road down to Ratchet. The Barrens is by far the easiest one to get lots of exp in via bosses. Westfall is probably #2. You go north from the base when phase 3 starts and fight a boss up by the crystal there, then a boss spawns at the north entrance to the base, then a short while later a boss flies in at the south gate and one spawns at the north gate at about the same time, you can get kill credit for both.

This is all with practically no downtime or wandering around.

 

[Bregor]

Sub better get a buff, it should never behind combat or mut single target.

Never.

If it is blizzard did something wrong.

To be honest, I personally never have complained that much about spec DPS. I've always told people to play what they enjoy the most. As long as a spec isn't so under powered as to break it, I don't see the point in quibbling over the last few percentage points.

Even with sub being currently behind, it still is within the top 40% of DPS specs. My experience has been that player skill is always a better indicator of results than spec (or even gear sometimes). Thus, play what you can play well.

I played combat in Vanilla and BC, and have been mostly assassination since then. I play assassination because I like it - I've never been a believer in "flavor of the week" philosophy. The only times I have felt forced to play a different spec is for Challenge Modes, where combat was needed to clear them quickly enough.

Of course, I am lucky. I play with friends. There is no really no chance they would not take me on a run because they want me there because they like me. I can see how it would be different for someone looking for a spot in a PUG or guild - there performance (or even just preconceptions about performance) would be far more important.

I still stick to the philosophy that player skill is most important however. Pick a spec and play it well, and you will overcome any class imbalances.

 

[Metroidvania]

I still stick to the philosophy that player skill is most important however. Pick a spec and play it well, and you will overcome any class imbalances.

Eh....this is only true up to a point.

Usually, by the time it reaches a big enough imbalance, Blizz fixes it, but even with design decisions like the 'hybrid tax', it never feels 'good', for example, to have a lock right now instead of a fire mage or shadow priest.

Granted, we're in a weird spot right now pre-artifact, and there's confounding factors like the new legion class changes, some classes much more than others, but at the end of the day, there can definitely be an imbalance of class damage on an average (not to mention fight-specific) basis beyond what's usually 'expected' (given this late in the game's dev cycle)