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World of Warcraft |OT8| CITIZENS OF DALARAN
- Thread starter ampere
- Start date
That's been the case for a long time though.
Seems odd that they'd start the post off saying that it's too soon to do tuning because people are only doing the little available content that heavily favors AOE/cleave...and then nerfing tanks because they do good AOE/cleave damage on trash packs when that has been the case for years.
Oh well, this is partially why I play DPS
jaundicejuice
Member
I can't wait for the Blood of Sargeras merchant to appear because the prices for basic gathered materials on the Auction House border on the absurd. Even with the impediment that leveling alts might present with professions, order halls, artifact power and follower lvls/ilvls, it might be worthwhile to have a DH alt with Skinning/Leather Working and a Druid with Herbalism/whatever just to feed gathered materials to my main.
I take back every bad thing I ever said about WoD Garrisons under-valuing gathering professions and gathered mats. As a Legion Blacksmith I wish I had something like my Garrison herb garden or the ability to build a barn to process farmed animals for crafting mats. I'm not paying the price of a Hexweave Bag for 10 Foxflower just because I want to level Blacksmithing or complete a profession quest, that's asinine. I'll wait for 7.1.
This will be...interesting, so far I've only focused on leveling Truthguard. I wasn't going to try and level two artifacts at once, that just seems like too much of a pain to manage at this point in the expansion. I was waiting for the increased AP gain before even thinking about leveling an off-spec. Even then it was going to be Holy. I'm kind of locked in to Protection being my main spec so it would have to be a significantly detrimental change to my damage output to even consider switching to Holy or Retribution. We'll see.
I take back every bad thing I ever said about WoD Garrisons under-valuing gathering professions and gathered mats. As a Legion Blacksmith I wish I had something like my Garrison herb garden or the ability to build a barn to process farmed animals for crafting mats. I'm not paying the price of a Hexweave Bag for 10 Foxflower just because I want to level Blacksmithing or complete a profession quest, that's asinine. I'll wait for 7.1.
This will be...interesting, so far I've only focused on leveling Truthguard. I wasn't going to try and level two artifacts at once, that just seems like too much of a pain to manage at this point in the expansion. I was waiting for the increased AP gain before even thinking about leveling an off-spec. Even then it was going to be Holy. I'm kind of locked in to Protection being my main spec so it would have to be a significantly detrimental change to my damage output to even consider switching to Holy or Retribution. We'll see.
Monk and DH AOE nerf as well. Will be interesting to see the other classes balance "fixes".
This is true (although some a lot more than others), I hope they only make changes for AoE purposes, because single-target/boss dps is definitely not amazing for most tank classes. Actually the only reason tank ST dps isn't even lower is because with all the movement required, they are one of the only classes that never stop dps'ing.
I'm not totally against the tank dps nerf (mainly AOE), but this nerf is completely needed since the 1.5-2mil AOE dps DH/Monk are getting is way too much compared to most others. However, they didn't mention Outlaw Rogues for some reason, even though their single-target dps is a good bit higher than either of those two, and their AoE is competitive.
can I have your magical PS1
PS2, I'd buy.
Also, never forget the original Diablo pet
I think the original looks better.
Yeah I would think if DH and Monk are getting an AOE nerf then Outlaw Rogues would as well.
On a side note why does my DH class hall quest require obliterum which is damn expensive but my DK is just blood of sargeras which I have tons of. *rolls eyes*
Yeah, this just seems stupidly dumb. I'm not topping damage meters as a blood deathknight at all - I do good damage, but dps specs are absolutely and clearly ahead of me on bosses. Are other tank classes going wild?
I'm also not impressed with the lack of action in other areas. I agree they don't need to completely rebalance things, but there are some absolute outliers that need fixing that will not be addressed by raiding gear or fight - frost death knights, warrior tanks and ignore pain, etc etc.
SomeRandomWeirdGuy
Member
Oh man do I love Blizzard "balancing". Tanks outclassing classes and specs that are horridly designed/undertuned? Better nerf the tank specs! What's that warlocks, frost DKs, Ele shamans? Nah they're working as intended.
Shit like this is what pushes me away from wow. It's crazy that FFXIV can have balancing without slaughtering a class, but Blizzard only knows how to nerf the shit out of classes or have them OP. And it's especially trash in an expansion where people have to invest a lot of time on each spec through artifacts
what are they gonna do, nerf warrior ravager? revenge + tclap + neltharions fury isnt that much dps
It sounds like they're getting rid of strike of the windlord's area effect entirely... which makes it so much less useful.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Melee classes are just superior to ranged DPS right now, even the tanks. Hunters and S. Priests seem to be doing ok though.
Fire mages are superior to nearly everyone
This is probably by design. By adding yet another melee dps (every new class has been melee) they need guilds to want to take more melee to raids or it makes their efforts at adding a new class irrelevant.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I was in a Mythic Vault yesterday and was out dpsing a Fire mage as an aff warlock, so I didnt put that in
As a warlock i fuckin hate demon hunters. Feels like half my soul was ripped out to make a new class that out dps me with two buttons and I got nothing in return
Lanrutcon
Member
Yeah.
Everyone raise your hands: who didn't see this coming?
In general, or only on long boss fights? No way Affliction beats Fire in short fights. You have no burst!
ahahaha just a fel barrage nerf? bloodlet needs a nerf and blade dance needs to deal anywhere from 20-50% less damage on secondary targets, but ill graciously accept the tickle nerf blizzard thanks
man am i guna have fun this xpac with my dh, pulling stray mobs from tanks all day (especially with that tank dmg reduction)
man am i guna have fun this xpac with my dh, pulling stray mobs from tanks all day (especially with that tank dmg reduction)
I'm a Blood DK and my dps numbers definitely are up there for the total dungeon. Last night our group was almost even at 25% in each run (Ret, Feral, Hunter, Myself) But that's including trash AOE, the actual DPS blow so far past me on bosses I don't even come close.
In Mythic+ I'd imagine we'll end up using CC on pulls instead of endless cleave, so tank DPS won't even be that big a deal anymore. Let alone in raids. I like to solo as a tank so a straight AOE nerf with no tradeoff is going to feel shitty no matter what.
I tend to balk at AH prices because my mindset is still set in the days where 500g was a lot of money. But this is a world where there's so much gold in circulation that I can make 40k off of a few minutes of buying felslate and stormscale off the AH, and crafting some bracers. For people who are just farming and doing WQs/dungeons for their money the prices probably seem insane. But there's soooo much gold out there in the economy from garrisons.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Being able to start fights with 3 soul shards is nice for QoL (kinda just changes my opener though, and my souls on Ulthalesh still tick down while everyone prepares) it doesn't change the fact that Warlock is just fucked right now. Our best spec is Demonology and I think its the worst designed spec in the history of the game no hyperbole. Its not fun to play and I hate it.
SomeRandomWeirdGuy
Member
We already got the survivability and blood boil nerf right before legion, now it's time to take another bullshit hit. Yeah we're pretty good at damaging trash, but our mitigation sucks and we do no boss damage.
It's the best AOE talent in that tier by far, so...yeah.
I hope they don't nerf Brewmaster single target too much. I feel like our AoE is great, but our single target is horrible.
Human Trashcan
Banned
So they admit some classes look bad right now because it's all about AoE dps in a lot of players' minds (although that's only part of the overall picture), yet they nerf tank DPS... because some classes look bad right now because they're not great at AoE DPS.
A+ logic guys. yeah, don't buff some of the shitty DPS classes, nerf tank damage because we happen to have a lot of AoE in our kits. Great.
A+ logic guys. yeah, don't buff some of the shitty DPS classes, nerf tank damage because we happen to have a lot of AoE in our kits. Great.
RoninChaos
Member
God damn mother fucking son of a bitch. Why nerf the fucking tanks? Fucking fix the other classes having problems you fucks! Don't nerf something else as a solution to fixing classes that are truly broken. I fucking swear, Blizzard has the smartest dumb people working over there.
Their AoE is great even without that talent, which is the real problem. When it comes to single target they're competitive if not unbeatable. But once there are 3 or more mobs, they can do 1.5x-2x more damage than most other classes... without Fel Barrage. It's their baseline AoE that's the real issue. No DH even needs to spec for it. They naturally come with some of the best cleave in the game like WW monks.
Yeah demon hunters dish out way more AoE damage than any other spec (by far) aside from WW (and this is even skipping fel barrage), so this is going to be a big relative win for DH and loss for monk.
On the flip side, the preliminary 7.1 changes seem to indicate that bloodlet might move to the 106 talent tier? Which, if it happens, is a massive but necessary nerf to DH pvp and also a big nerf to PvE (single target too which is not warranted, cleave/aoe which is warranted). Ideally, bloodlet does indeed move to that 106 tier where it naturally belongs, and single target damage is buffed slightly. The result ends up being an AoE nerf, a cleave nerf, a big pvp nerf, and in an ideal world a net 0 single target change with offsetting buffs (but this is less likely to happen).
We'll see though, 7.1 is a ways away and nothing is confirmed.
It's okay for classes to be good at things. AOE is supposed to be their strength. It's just a little too good right now, in their eyes. Competitive if not unbeatable in single target? Good Mages and Rogues will eat their lunch.
I'm of the opinion that nerfing a class because they can pad meters really well on trash is silly, but whatever.
Tank damage nerf is much more puzzling to me.
Human Trashcan
Banned
I think it really is as simple as tanks doing good damage in trash fights, which makes other classes look bad. Since that is a hard problem to solve, they "fix" it the easy way - by nerfing tank damage so DPS is unlikely to be below them in meters. It actually doesn't help anything.
My guild of 80 has seen 2 legendaries.......both on the same guy.
There has to be something to this.
Balance is super broken and people are even complaining about the super obvious changes that need to happen...who would have guessed? There's way too much incidental area damage from stuff like Monks and Demon Hunters, so it's obvious they need to be toned down. Like you just look at the abilities and you scratch your head as to why every major ability for Monk is useful for AoE. It's also obvious how tanks are too well rounded, and that their damage output falls too close in line with DPS. No reason to play anything other than tank for most solo content.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
The combined logic of "it's too early to buff specs that are clearly performing poorly" and "we are going to immediately nerf tank damage" sure is something else.
I've never wanted to be one of those people who blames specific devs for balance/design decisions (I've always thought most of the hate ghostcrawler received was completely ridiculous) but I'm sort of starting to think Ion is a fucking dipshit.
I've never wanted to be one of those people who blames specific devs for balance/design decisions (I've always thought most of the hate ghostcrawler received was completely ridiculous) but I'm sort of starting to think Ion is a fucking dipshit.
Trash clearing will be very relevant come Mythic+.
Tank damage makes sense. I had numerous runs through Heroic or Mythic where I honestly said to myself "this would be easier with 4 Vengeance". I just don't like the way they went about it. Tank specs are by far the best for world content and I would've rather other classes get better at handling multiple mobs than for tanks to get worse at it.
Tank damage makes sense. I had numerous runs through Heroic or Mythic where I honestly said to myself "this would be easier with 4 Vengeance". I just don't like the way they went about it. Tank specs are by far the best for world content and I would've rather other classes get better at handling multiple mobs than for tanks to get worse at it.
EverythingShiny
Member
It says reducing, so maybe not. It's a little frustrating because raids haven't even come out yet and our ST is pretty middle of the pack. As the post even says, everyone's focusing on dungeons right now so of course we look really strong; most fights last under 2 minutes.
I've got my mythic+ group pretty much set and I bring a lot to the table as ww (aoe interrupt, tiger's lust, movement buff, etc) so I'm not too upset about having my dps brought more inline with others. We'll see how it works out.
Speaking of interrupts, it's shocking how much people don't interrupt, either because people don't care or they have interrupts with long cds. Court of Stars will be rough for groups bad at interrupting.
Kind of been what I've said about Legion since they announced it. With how AP works, you had better be able to promise STRONG balance between all specs for people that invest into their spec of choice because even with catch-up mechanics, it'll never have as much AP as the spec they focused on and if the one they focused on is 'bad' you've just wasted a ton of peoples itme.
We'll see when the first real proper raid is out. But with artifact power investment, they need to have balance the best that it's ever been.
We'll see when the first real proper raid is out. But with artifact power investment, they need to have balance the best that it's ever been.
Because bringing down tank damage has almost no impact on raids and will not adjust tank viability.
It will be relevant in M+.
Which is why are supposedly waiting to tune until they see people actually playing that content.
Except for tank damage because reasons.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Its true Tanks do too much dmg in Mythics, but I think making them weaker before making the bad specs stronger is the wrong way to go about it.
RoninChaos
Member
I'm with you there. Ion has seemed to be a huge part of the issue with WoD and now with the class balancing. Saying that it's too early to buff specs that they've gotten consistent feedback on for months, and then turning around and nerfing tanks is COMICAL. So there's not enough feedback about the classes that are suffering but there is enough data about tank damage so nerf that? You can't have it both ways. Either you have the data or you don't. It really feels like they're nerfing tanks to get DPS to shut up rather than actually working the problem. That dude is out to fucking lunch.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
How are they broken? Please explain.
jaundicejuice
Member
I know The Millionaires of Draenor seriously skewed things and will continue to for a while. Hell, Legion might even continue the trend with Order Halls, but it's not a question of having the gold or not, I'm just cheap. That's the driving force behind me having alts. Why buy shit you can gather or make for yourself if you have the time. If I hadn't just server/faction switched I would've logged into an alt and mailed my main the mats. Right now all I have is this 105 Paladin and I'm not deviating from Legion to level something else up until I hit some progression gates/barriers.
I don't play the AH when I probably should.
While Tank single-target damage can't compete with most DPS classes, they can pull in massive mobs and AoE that mob pack down as quickly as a DPS can burst down a single target. It's just more optimal to level as a tank in PVE if you're a hybrid class. Monk and DH sound particularly strong right now.
Monk and DH? If you run groups it's really obvious. They have minimal cooldown gating on their AoE so they are just constantly on for pretty much every pack, and it comes at almost no cost to single target damage, mobility, or defensives.