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[BreezyLimbo]

LFR for HoV somehow remains horrible

I thought 3 weeks would be enough to get people to learn it but nope

they still dying

Gotta hand it to blizz, they made a relatively hard raid that even in LFR nobody can clear it

 

[Strimei]

LFR for HoV somehow remains horrible

I thought 3 weeks would be enough to get people to learn it but nope

they still dying

Gotta hand it to blizz, they made a relatively hard raid that even in LFR nobody can clear it

While the initial few days were horrible, I've had some really good groups the past two weeks. Just luck of the draw, really.

 

[Tarazet]

While the initial few days were horrible, I've had some really good groups the past two weeks. Just luck of the draw, really.

Whenever I've queued on my alt Mage, I've seen nothing but other shitty alts doing sub 200k dps. If I've queued on my main, then I've seen up to 5 other Enhancement Shamans all racing me for DPS along with boss geared Shadow Priests, Death Knights, Mages, Rogues. It's like group finder puts you in some kind of equivalent to PvP brackets.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Whenever I've queued on my alt Mage, I've seen nothing but other shitty alts doing sub 200k dps. If I've queued on my main, then I've seen up to 5 other Enhancement Shamans all racing me for DPS along with boss geared Shadow Priests, Death Knights, Mages, Rogues. It's like group finder puts you in some kind of equivalent to PvP brackets.

Maybe it's a mage thing

I queued up with my mage tonight and good lord they were terrible.

 

[v1perz53]

I was scarred for life with Wind lord Meljarak and Amber Shaper in LFR back in MoP, so I doubt anything in current day LFR could feel hard to me. Pre-determination as well, so if you were wiping on something you KEPT wiping on it until your group learned how to do it right. Honestly, sometimes I miss MoP LFR though, since I earned reasonable gear for it but I felt like I truly earned it, whereas even in ToV LFR which is "hard" it can still be boiled down to "afk until your group has enough determination stacks to 1 tank 1 heal 3 DPS the fight"

 

[Lomax]

I wouldn't mind lfr being challenging if it actually gave worthwhile drops, as it is better stuff comes up in world quests every day so why would I want to wipe for hours with strangers for vendor trash.

 

[jaundicejuice]

I'm actually really enjoying Draenor PVE. It's pretty jarring to go from zones like Tanaris, Un'Goro Crater, Sithilus and basically leap 10 years forward into Draenor's Shadowmoon Valley. The quality of the quest design, the environments, the gear, everything has just improved so much. It's night and day.

The best thing to come out of that Vanilla zone loremaster clear was trying out the other mage specs and finding out I really like Arcane. While I'll have no problem playing any spec if needed, I'm definitely going to be grabbing the Arcane artifact first. It's fun blowing things up with explosions.

 

[Dugna]

Theres also the problem of litterally doing the filler version of filler raids. Emerald Nightmare and Trial of Valor have like no purpose in the grand scheme of this expac....I just never got why ever since MoP they found putting filler raids first to be the priority when before every expac's raiding started with tier and ended with tier...raiding is based off tier...theres no reason to run EN and ToV when stuff like M+ gives better itemized gear with less effort...

 

[v1perz53]

I'm actually really enjoying Draenor PVE. It's pretty jarring to go from zones like Tanaris, Un'Goro Crater, Sithilus and basically leap 10 years forward into Draenor's Shadowmoon Valley. The quality of the quest design, the environments, the gear, everything has just improved so much. It's night and day.

The best thing to come out of that Vanilla zone loremaster clear was trying out the other mage specs and finding out I really like Arcane. While I'll have no problem playing any spec if needed, I'm definitely going to be grabbing the Arcane artifact first. It's fun blowing things up with explosions.

Well technically you only jumped forward 6 years since all Vanilla content was remade when Cata launched in 2010. Honestly, as someone who just did every Vanilla, TBC and almost every WotLK quest, the current Vanilla zones are still leagues ahead of TBC and WotLK, but still leagues behind WoD. But again, everyone loved WoD initially during the questing phase. It is when it gets past that when WoD content falls apart, great questing but really no endgame to speak of besides raiding.

 

[TheYanger]

I've never had a problem with any LFR unless it was flat out busted (Garalon the first day or whatever for example?). It's not LFR that is the problem. If you take the reigns and assert some leadership, you can lead absolute trash to victory. It's easy to go 'HOW DO THEY NOT KNOW HOW TO DO FIGHT?!" but it's only mildly harder to take it upon yourself to bark orders so that they do.

Not a judgement, I get not everyone wants to lead, but it's sure as shit easier than wiping over and over. Absolutely guarantee I've got less than a half dozen LFR wipes to all lfr bosses combined for the entire period it's existed.

 

[HowZatOZ]

Theres also the problem of litterally doing the filler version of filler raids. Emerald Nightmare and Trial of Valor have like no purpose in the grand scheme of this expac....I just never got why ever since MoP they found putting filler raids first to be the priority when before every expac's raiding started with tier and ended with tier...raiding is based off tier...theres no reason to run EN and ToV when stuff like M+ gives better itemized gear with less effort...

It's fun? I enjoy my mythic +'s but at the end of the day I'd take raiding filler raids than beating my head against mythic +'s.

Nothing else is even close to as good atm.

Not at all.

Warcraft Logs has taken over as the current de facto logging site.

Ask Mr. Robot tried, but Warcraft Logs beat them slightly and overall had better analytical features so they sunsetted that service.

Ah fair enough, someone kept telling me there was a better alternative to Warcraft Logs but never actually bothered to tell me what it was.

 

[Strimei]

Theres also the problem of litterally doing the filler version of filler raids. Emerald Nightmare and Trial of Valor have like no purpose in the grand scheme of this expac....I just never got why ever since MoP they found putting filler raids first to be the priority when before every expac's raiding started with tier and ended with tier...raiding is based off tier...theres no reason to run EN and ToV when stuff like M+ gives better itemized gear with less effort...

They have a pretty clear purpose: to pad out time.

Yeah they don't drop tier and when Nighthold comes out they'll pretty much be useless (though I'll still run EN a bit for the hidden appearances), but it gives Blizzard time, pads things out, and gives us content to do. I see no harm in it.

 

[Nokterian]

Well technically you only jumped forward 6 years since all Vanilla content was remade when Cata launched in 2010. Honestly, as someone who just did every Vanilla, TBC and almost every WotLK quest, the current Vanilla zones are still leagues ahead of TBC and WotLK, but still leagues behind WoD. But again, everyone loved WoD initially during the questing phase. It is when it gets past that when WoD content falls apart, great questing but really no endgame to speak of besides raiding.

Garrisons man those fucking garrisons still make my blood boil when i think of it, that ruined WoD not only that there was absolutely nothing to do when you hit level 100. That is solved with Legion thank god not only that they encourage you to go out in the world.

WoD was a doing a facebook game in a mmo..in a garrison where you are alone and nobody around you..fucking terrible. And yeah no new dungeons..just 2 patches, people thought cataclysm was bad? WoD is topping it at maximum nearly 14 months with no new content it was a disgrace. That was a valuable lesson for blizzard now there back on schedule making content when i watched Blizzcon it is promising what is yet to come.

Yes this current 'vanilla' zones since they are new because cataclysm is so much better in terms of leveling it has a great flow to it. The real old ones? From 2005 until cataclysm? biggest mess in terms of leveling. Wotlk questing is refined than TBC.

 

[Dugna]

It's fun? I enjoy my mythic +'s but at the end of the day I'd take raiding filler raids than beating my head against mythic +'s.

Ah fair enough, someone kept telling me there was a better alternative to Warcraft Logs but never actually bothered to tell me what it was.

EN bosses overall are really simple, again my point was that these type of raids were something inebetween tiers not something buy time for a tier raid that the majority wants to bother with...with this situation you're having people dropping out before the first tier is even out nobody feels like they accomplished anything because everything is just gear with normal bleh stats on them no set pieces or anything.

They have a pretty clear purpose: to pad out time.

Yeah they don't drop tier and when Nighthold comes out they'll pretty much be useless (though I'll still run EN a bit for the hidden appearances), but it gives Blizzard time, pads things out, and gives us content to do. I see no harm in it.

the thing is like above, that padded time should've been used between tiers not before a tier comes out.

 

[Lomax]

Garrisons man those fucking garrisons still make my blood boil when i think of it, that ruined WoD not only that there was absolutely nothing to do when you hit level 100. That is solved with Legion thank god not only that they encourage you to go out in the world.

WoD was a doing a facebook game in a mmo..in a garrison where you are alone and nobody around you..fucking terrible. And yeah no new dungeons..just 2 patches, people thought cataclysm was bad? WoD is topping it at maximum nearly 14 months with no new content it was a disgrace. That was a valuable lesson for blizzard now there back on schedule making content when i watched Blizzcon it is promising what is yet to come.

Yes this current 'vanilla' zones since they are new because cataclysm is so much better in terms of leveling it has a great flow to it. The real old ones? From 2005 until cataclysm? biggest mess in terms of leveling. Wotlk questing is refined than TBC.

The problem with garrisons is that facebook/mobile style games in that vein get near constant updates and new content to keep people interested. If they had really gone all in on garrisons and the mobile side of thing, had a good app (like they do for Legion) and regular flow of new content, they would have been fine and more than just an endless churn of free gold, and could have provided a genuinely new aspect of interaction with the game. As it was they clearly bailed early on the entire expansion and garrisons became a really obvious emblem of that. And believe me, Class Halls are headed in the same direction, they are already vastly over simplified compared to garrisons and are even less involving, even though we have the app now. So if we hit another big content drought with Legion like with WoD the backlash is going to be extreme. It's real easy to paint world quests as a mediocre variant on dailies, the legendary system has obvious flaws, and right now the only thing compensating for near constant bugginess is a solid flow of content. If that dries up and we see another 10-12 month lull, the negativity we saw for WoD is going to seem mild in comparison.

 

[TheYanger]

The problem with garrisons is that facebook/mobile style games in that vein get near constant updates and new content to keep people interested. If they had really gone all in on garrisons and the mobile side of thing, had a good app (like they do for Legion) and regular flow of new content, they would have been fine and more than just an endless churn of free gold, and could have provided a genuinely new aspect of interaction with the game. As it was they clearly bailed early on the entire expansion and garrisons became a really obvious emblem of that. And believe me, Class Halls are headed in the same direction, they are already vastly over simplified compared to garrisons and are even less involving, even though we have the app now. So if we hit another big content drought with Legion like with WoD the backlash is going to be extreme. It's real easy to paint world quests as a mediocre variant on dailies, the legendary system has obvious flaws, and right now the only thing compensating for near constant bugginess is a solid flow of content. If that dries up and we see another 10-12 month lull, the negativity we saw for WoD is going to seem mild in comparison.

I'm not sure how the class hall is at all like the garrison. It's like you say - much simpler with less to do, because it's meant to be. The garrison wasn't bad because the gameplay of it was awful, it was fine, I'm wiht oyu that it could've been a harder minigame type thing, but that was never the goal. Garrisons are emblematic of the issues with wod, not the cause. I'm fine with class halls being pretty simple becuase they're not what you spend time doing.


Regarding 'filler' ....what? what is 'filler' ? Raiding isn't based off of a tier set bonus. Sorry, it's not. Raiding is about fighting bosses with unique and interesting mechanics. Tier bonuses are fun, but you certainly don't need them. I'd argue the start of an Xpac is the time you LEAST need a set bonus, because you're still adjusting to the baseline level of your class and what it plays like. Throw in artifacts and traits? Yeah no thanks, the learning curve for a class is already vastly higher and changes continually for multiple months at the start of this xpac. Set bonuses are only meaningful when you put them on and compare them to what you were before, if there is no before they're pointless.

 

[Nokterian]

The problem with garrisons is that facebook/mobile style games in that vein get near constant updates and new content to keep people interested. If they had really gone all in on garrisons and the mobile side of thing, had a good app (like they do for Legion) and regular flow of new content, they would have been fine and more than just an endless churn of free gold, and could have provided a genuinely new aspect of interaction with the game. As it was they clearly bailed early on the entire expansion and garrisons became a really obvious emblem of that. And believe me, Class Halls are headed in the same direction, they are already vastly over simplified compared to garrisons and are even less involving, even though we have the app now. So if we hit another big content drought with Legion like with WoD the backlash is going to be extreme. It's real easy to paint world quests as a mediocre variant on dailies, the legendary system has obvious flaws, and right now the only thing compensating for near constant bugginess is a solid flow of content. If that dries up and we see another 10-12 month lull, the negativity we saw for WoD is going to seem mild in comparison.

WoD did not provide content for people like me doing dungeons for fun only high tier raids that to me are a thing of the past.

They learned from there mistakes with WoD also there will not be content drought with this expansion they learned there lesson we have more content with 7.1 what WoD patches including Pandaria combined and that was just 1 patch. When i watched Blizzcon the amount of new content that is coming is mindblowing 7.1.5 is 'mid' tier patch but a lot of changes and new small content with 7.2 it will be the last raid tier but also a new dungeon after 7.2 we are going to Argus and butt loads more to come.

What they did with the mobile app for quests for your champions to manage it while you are away is a good thing because you still need to be in-game to use those.

So far Legion is to me one of the best expansions yet better than i hoped it would be i enjoy the artifacts, i also enjoy the class halls but mostly be out in the world.

Class halls are not the same and it will not be the same as a garrison, you still need to go out do world quests or dungeons or raids to get the best AP or something.

 

[Dugna]

I'm not sure how the class hall is at all like the garrison. It's like you say - much simpler with less to do, because it's meant to be. The garrison wasn't bad because the gameplay of it was awful, it was fine, I'm wiht oyu that it could've been a harder minigame type thing, but that was never the goal. Garrisons are emblematic of the issues with wod, not the cause. I'm fine with class halls being pretty simple becuase they're not what you spend time doing.


Regarding 'filler' ....what? what is 'filler' ? Raiding isn't based off of a tier set bonus. Sorry, it's not. Raiding is about fighting bosses with unique and interesting mechanics. Tier bonuses are fun, but you certainly don't need them. I'd argue the start of an Xpac is the time you LEAST need a set bonus, because you're still adjusting to the baseline level of your class and what it plays like. Throw in artifacts and traits? Yeah no thanks, the learning curve for a class is already vastly higher and changes continually for multiple months at the start of this xpac. Set bonuses are only meaningful when you put them on and compare them to what you were before, if there is no before they're pointless.

If raiding isn't about the tier sets then explain why people are dropping like flies out of progression? Overall less people have even bothered to clear ToV for example compared to EN, also class changes are learned while gearing up to the raid for the tier and do not take months to learn unless its a expac that drastically changes classes like Cata and even then there is plenty of time before that to learn...Raids without tier are again filler raids and only entered ever again not for the "fun" of it but for a certain trinket or item that might be extremely good....but other then that its ignored everytime.

you might laugh at this guy but Asmongold on YT recently brought up this point...if you can get gear that 1. better then raids 2. easier to start to farm for. Then what is even the point of raids? thats right tier, that has always the been the point of raids.

 

[HowZatOZ]

If raiding isn't about the tier sets then explain why people are dropping like flies out of progression? Overall less people have even bothered to clear ToV for example compared to EN, also class changes are learned while gearing up to the raid for the tier and do not take months to learn unless its a expac that drastically changes classes like Cata and even then there is plenty of time before that to learn...Raids without tier are again filler raids and only entered ever again not for the "fun" of it but for a certain trinket or item that might be extremely good....but other then that its ignored everytime.

you might laugh at this guy but Asmongold on YT recently brought up this point...if you can get gear that 1. better then raids 2. easier to start to farm for. Then what is even the point of raids? thats right tier, that has always the been the point of raids.

Because its fun? Again, I'm going to keep pointing it out but everyone has different enjoyment from an MMO, be it mythic + or raiding that may not have tiers yet.

 

[Dugna]

Because its fun? Again, I'm going to keep pointing it out but everyone has different enjoyment from an MMO, be it mythic + or raiding that may not have tiers yet.

the majority of the fun in this game is upgrading your character from gear and tier is a big point of that, if you want pure boss stuff there are other games for that.

 

[TheYanger]

Tier has never been 'the point' of raids. There are less people clearing tov because it's harder and those same people are still working on EN for the most part. By that logic the instant nighthold hits it will be EVEN MORE popular than EN. But that won't be true. EN was the first raid in a new expansion and had no barrier to entry. Newer raids don't have high barriers to entry, but they're not 'hey you did heroic dungeons' as a baseline. If you don't like raiding, don't raid, if you only want gear and think Mythic + is the best way to get it, have fun man that's what they did that for. If you want to raid, you'll still raid. If you want the best gear, you'll still raid.

 

[teacupcopter]

They learned from there mistakes with WoD also there will not be content drought with this expansion

I'm not saying they have or not, but considering their last ... how many expansions? Wrath had a content drought at the end, Cata and Panda did didn't they? Warlords too- There is hope and seeing trends which I agree look better, but this is still blizzard. I'll believe it when I see it and people are absolutely right to be skeptical. If you're right, they'll prove it by ensuring no content drought. If you're wrong, Blizzard deserve all the backlash they'll get.

 

[TheYanger]

I'm not saying they have or not, but considering their last ... how many expansions? Wrath had a content drought at the end, Cata and Panda did didn't they? Warlords too- There is hope and seeing trends which I agree look better, but this is still blizzard. I'll believe it when I see it and people are absolutely right to be skeptical. If you're right, they'll prove it by ensuring no content drought. If you're wrong, Blizzard deserve all the backlash they'll get.

The only wow product that hasn't had a drought was Vanilla.

TBC had a yearlong drought in the middle, mostly covered by the fact that there was no catchup so people that weren't bleeding edge never got there. 3/4 Year of Black Temple/Hyjal

Wrath had a tiny stopgap single boss raid thrown in in the middle of its yearlong drought, but otherwise nothing of note. most of a year of ICC

Cata had a year of Dragon Soul

Mop had a year of Siege

WoD had a year of HFC

That said, thus far during this xpac? It's not even close. It's not just the end of xpac drought they need to fight, this expansion has had flat out more content delivered faster than any other before. The next raid isn't even out yet and it's been basically done for over hafl a year from the beta, giving them time to do whatever else they need.

I don't have faith, I won't claim I do until they deliver (It's been too many times), but it's looking good so far for sure.

 

[Dugna]

Tier has never been 'the point' of raids. There are less people clearing tov because it's harder and those same people are still working on EN for the most part. By that logic the instant nighthold hits it will be EVEN MORE popular than EN. But that won't be true. EN was the first raid in a new expansion and had no barrier to entry. Newer raids don't have high barriers to entry, but they're not 'hey you did heroic dungeons' as a baseline. If you don't like raiding, don't raid, if you only want gear and think Mythic + is the best way to get it, have fun man that's what they did that for. If you want to raid, you'll still raid. If you want the best gear, you'll still raid.

Except that, again people are not getting their best gear from raids. For example the trinkets in EN are still trash...they're just utter trash for many classes even after getting a straight flat buff on all the trinkets they're still trash to have for many....the only thing that makes raiding better in gear is usually tier gear....we have never had 5 man content scale this high before which makes the filler raids aka EN, ToV just sorta useless...

I mentioned that Asmongold brought this up but here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhvEY6hDdUs

in the past you would reach a point where heroics and 5 mans would hit a peak of being not usefull since the gear didn't keep getting better in them, so you would naturally switch to raids and heck harder content and better gear...now you can litterally just stick to M+ get better gear better rewards same chance at legendaries and other things.... theres just no reason to move up to raids besides maybe 1-2 pieces now.

 

[strafer]

MMOC being classy as always

 

[TheYanger]

Except that, again people are not getting their best gear from raids. For example the trinkets in EN are still trash...they're just utter trash for many classes even after getting a straight flat buff on all the trinkets they're still trash to have for many....the only thing that makes raiding better in gear is usually tier gear....we have never had 5 man content scale this high before which makes the filler raids aka EN, ToV just sorta useless...

I mentioned that Asmongold brought this up but here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhvEY6hDdUs

Not interested in what Asmongold has to say, sorry. And no, raids aren't usually better gear 'because of tier'. Are you high? Raids have always been better because YOU COULD NOT GET GEAR OUTSIDE OF RAIDS. Tier bonuses have nothing to do with any of it, it's all because of ilevel. If you just want a set bonus, you could always do LFR, it's never been meaningful.

Raids are STILL going to be run to get the best gear because you have to get titanforged drops of the highest quality of mythic + just to equal what you get for regular ass mythic raids. Yeah, there are trinkets especially that are good from non-raids, that's a problem with EN trinkets not with the gearing itself. Guess what, there have been good items that weren't from raids before, and if there WERE tier bonuses in EN - the trinkets would still not magically have improved. Nighthold has fantastic trinkets, for whatever it's worth.

"Tier" has literally nothing to do with anything. Anyone that raided despite not enjoying it before was doing it because of the gear, regardless of bonuses. Now they can do M+ and be content, if you want to raid then raid. If you don't do both M+ and raiding, Raiding will get you better gear than just running some mythics will. You need to run a LOT of Mythic +s to outgear what you're basically guaranteed to get in a few runs of EN.

EDIT: Just saw your edit, holy shit, do you like raiding? If so raid. It's absolutely not worse gear. It's like equal at worst, besides random pieces from time to time, as it has always been. If you just want gear, do whatever you want who cares, play the fucking game how you want, that's the point of these changes. The absolute optimal gear is always going to be for people who engage with more aspects of the game than just one, that's never changed.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/senjin/Marzana/advanced

There, that's my Armory. Could my gear be better? Absolutely. Is it likely to be much bette runless I poopsock literally all day doing M12s? Not bloody likely. Guess how many of those items are from raids. I'm ALMOST positive every single one is. Raiding is the easiest way to gear up and will give you top end gear for your effort. It's also vastly more fun than M+|. What more do you want?

Also, your initial argument was that you complained about 'filler' MoP and thus didn't play mop, you realize those 'filler' raids in mop were all a single tier and were staggered by only a couple of weeks each, and you couldn't get better gear anywhere else in the game? I just feel like your point has nothing to stand on except "It's filler because it doesn't have tier items" - no single other point has been true for every 'filler' raid you've deigned as such. Nobody else considers them filler. Filler content is stuff like Ruby Sanctum, something that has no chance to hold people over, lasts almost no time, and is just thrown in during a huge downtime. Nighthold is done man, they could release it tomorrow aside from some spit and polish, I've fought all of these bosses in the beta, it's not being held back because of some filler content, it's being held back because releasing 3 raids in quick succession makes it feel pointless to do the first 2 (which is wht ACTUALLY happened in mop). EN and now ToV need a moment to breathe, since they're real raids and not filler, y'know. It's not fun to have a raid come out and become invalidated within moments of its opening. People want to do fights more than one time.

 

[Dugna]

Not interested in what Asmongold has to say, sorry. And no, raids aren't usually better gear 'because of tier'. Are you high? Raids have always been better because YOU COULD NOT GET GEAR OUTSIDE OF RAIDS. Tier bonuses have nothing to do with any of it, it's all because of ilevel. If you just want a set bonus, you could always do LFR, it's never been meaningful.

Raids are STILL going to be run to get the best gear because you have to get titanforged drops of the highest quality of mythic + just to equal what you get for regular ass mythic raids. Yeah, there are trinkets especially that are good from non-raids, that's a problem with EN trinkets not with the gearing itself. Guess what, there have been good items that weren't from raids before, and if there WERE tier bonuses in EN - the trinkets would still not magically have improved. Nighthold has fantastic trinkets, for whatever it's worth.

"Tier" has literally nothing to do with anything. Anyone that raided despite not enjoying it before was doing it because of the gear, regardless of bonuses. Now they can do M+ and be content, if you want to raid then raid. If you don't do both M+ and raiding, Raiding will get you better gear than just running some mythics will. You need to run a LOT of Mythic +s to outgear what you're basically guaranteed to get in a few runs of EN.

EDIT: Just saw your edit, holy shit, do you like raiding? If so raid. It's absolutely not worse gear. It's like equal at worst, besides random pieces from time to time, as it has always been. If you just want gear, do whatever you want who cares, play the fucking game how you want, that's the point of these changes. The absolute optimal gear is always going to be for people who engage with more aspects of the game than just one, that's never changed.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/senjin/Marzana/advanced

There, that's my Armory. Could my gear be better? Absolutely. Is it likely to be much bette runless I poopsock literally all day doing M12s? Not bloody likely. Guess how many of those items are from raids. I'm ALMOST positive every single one is. Raiding is the easiest way to gear up and will give you top end gear for your effort. It's also vastly more fun than M+|. What more do you want?

.......yes I like raiding btw, but it seems you didn't pay attention to early expac and how much M+ played a part in making raids completely irrelevant, besides the meh tuning why do you think EN mythic went down so stupidly fast? Its because the majority of EN gear was not relevant to max out your strength in your char...it just wasn't.

You also have more chances at higher rolls in loot while also having more chances at loot in general from doing M+s meaning you can just completely ignore raiding and get better gear then raiding.

Ohh and Tier bonuses HAVE ALWAYS MATTERED TO RAIDING...THERE ARE SEVERAL BOSSES THAT WERE MADE POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF THE UTTER POWER THAT TIER BONUSES HAVE.

You can have fun with raiding all you want, that doesn't make EN and ToV non filler raids that are made even more irrelevant by things like M+ because they have no tier bonuses that make them worthwhile to do.

 

[TheYanger]

.......yes I like raiding btw, but it seems you didn't pay attention to early expac and how much M+ played a part in making raids completely irrelevant, besides the meh tuning why do you think EN mythic went down so stupidly fast? Its because the majority of EN gear was not relevant to max out your strength in your char...it just wasn't.

You also have more chances at higher rolls in loot while also having more chances at loot in general from doing M+s meaning you can just completely ignore raiding and get better gear then raiding.

Ohh and Tier bonuses HAVE ALWAYS MATTERED TO RAIDING...THERE ARE SEVERAL BOSSES THAT WERE MADE POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF THE UTTER POWER THAT TIER BONUSES HAVE.

I completely agree that Mythic + was a huge reason that Mythic EN went down fast. That literally has nothing to do with the assertion that it is 'filler' or that somehow a tier set has to exist in a zone for it to be a real raid. EN was undertuned because the balance team was balancing it for an ilevel below what people could achieve, period. There's not much point in arguing that and I never did, I've said that from the day the zone came out.

Nowhere did I say that set bonuses haven't ever played a role in player power, again like...what? Of course a set bonus that gives you power is strong and makes a difference, but it doesn't make a difference in the validity of a raid zone, only in the power of the players wearing it.

Literally nothing you posted right here is in disagreement with what I said, or is in service of your argument. If you like raiding you're arguing nothing. Keep raiding, it gets you better gear on average and it is fun to do. That's it. That's the whole argument. If you are that concerned about M+, go fucking run M+. You certainly don't have to to be max level equipped in wow. You're more likely to get bang for your buck raiding - just like always. The only point you've made that is actually true is that EN trinkets suck. Yeah, they do. Everyone knows that. That's a balance issue, totally unrelated and not the first time it's happened in wow. They are however largely good enough that unless you've got like 880+ versions of shit from M+ or an arcanocrystal, they're still likely better than your 855 mythic + garbage.

 

[Nere]

.......yes I like raiding btw, but it seems you didn't pay attention to early expac and how much M+ played a part in making raids completely irrelevant, besides the meh tuning why do you think EN mythic went down so stupidly fast? Its because the majority of EN gear was not relevant to max out your strength in your char...it just wasn't.

You also have more chances at higher rolls in loot while also having more chances at loot in general from doing M+s meaning you can just completely ignore raiding and get better gear then raiding.

Ohh and Tier bonuses HAVE ALWAYS MATTERED TO RAIDING...THERE ARE SEVERAL BOSSES THAT WERE MADE POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF THE UTTER POWER THAT TIER BONUSES HAVE.

You can have fun with raiding all you want, that doesn't make EN and ToV non filler raids that are made even more irrelevant by things like M+ because they have no tier bonuses that make them worthwhile to do.

Just because there are other sources of gear now doesn't mean that it is bad. Also nobody things EN and ToV are filler raids just because they don't have a tier bonus only you. Dungeons used to be irrelevant let them have their moment too.

 

[Son1x]

This is stupid, I queued as tank for call to arms but I've been waiting for more than 10 minutes already.

 

[Tarazet]

WoD was a doing a facebook game in a mmo..in a garrison where you are alone and nobody around you..fucking terrible. And yeah no new dungeons..just 2 patches, people thought cataclysm was bad? WoD is topping it at maximum nearly 14 months with no new content it was a disgrace. That was a valuable lesson for blizzard now there back on schedule making content when i watched Blizzcon it is promising what is yet to come..

The amount of content in Legion is seriously impressive. I'm pretty sure the volume of quest content in Suramar eclipses all of WoD.

 

[Moff]

what they have done with suaramar is really remarkable, it's a great quest zone of it's own with the city and the disuige mechanic, but the weekly quests now are really a lot of fun and you feel like something is happening and you are making a difference. the variety in the endgame content of legion is absolutely stellar, it's far above anything wow has ever done and i don't see any other MMO remotely close to it.

 

[Lomax]

This is stupid, I queued as tank for call to arms but I've been waiting for more than 10 minutes already.

And not only that, but when your queue pops, the call to arms bonus will be gone. It's basically killed any attempt I've made at queuing for randoms.

 

[ampere]

I like raiding because it's fun. I don't personally care if there's tier or not, but sometimes tier bonuses are interesting and can add to a rotation.

Also, gotta get xmog from all difficulties DUH!

And not only that, but when your queue pops, the call to arms bonus will be gone.

This happens much too frequently now. Wondering if it's a bug or change in the system

 

[cdyhybrid]

I raid for transmog

 

[Entropia]

This is stupid, I queued as tank for call to arms but I've been waiting for more than 10 minutes already.

And not only that, but when your queue pops, the call to arms bonus will be gone. It's basically killed any attempt I've made at queuing for randoms.

Yeah it's pretty annoying when CTA still takes a lot of time.

HOWEVER, I am pretty sure the CTA bonus rewards disappearing when your queue pops is just a UI bug, you will still get your bonus rewards.

 

[HowZatOZ]

Except that, again people are not getting their best gear from raids. For example the trinkets in EN are still trash...they're just utter trash for many classes even after getting a straight flat buff on all the trinkets they're still trash to have for many....the only thing that makes raiding better in gear is usually tier gear....we have never had 5 man content scale this high before which makes the filler raids aka EN, ToV just sorta useless...

I mentioned that Asmongold brought this up but here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhvEY6hDdUs

in the past you would reach a point where heroics and 5 mans would hit a peak of being not usefull since the gear didn't keep getting better in them, so you would naturally switch to raids and heck harder content and better gear...now you can litterally just stick to M+ get better gear better rewards same chance at legendaries and other things.... theres just no reason to move up to raids besides maybe 1-2 pieces now.

Almost all my best in slot gear is from EN. Honestly I'm fine with filler raids, they've been super fun so far. With the amount of content we have to choose from in this expansion I'm in no way complaining about raids not having tiers yet.

 

[Robin64]

Are we actually calling Emerald Nightmare a filler raid now?

 

[Freeman76]

Are they doing a Timeless Isle or Tanaan equivalent for this Xpac or is that taken care of with WQ etc?

 

[TheYanger]

Are we actually calling Emerald Nightmare a filler raid now?

No

though Apparently Asmongold became something other than a joke in the last month? That was news to me.

 

[cartographer]

The leatherworking mount quest is one of the worst pieces of content I've done in a professionally made video game in a very long time. It is both poorly conceived and poorly executed.

I thought some of the other profession quests were bad (I killed more than 100 bears for 15 "bear furs") but only in the unnecessary waste of time way. The leatherworking mount is just bullshit.

Cherry on top is that none of my characters seem to sit on it correctly. Unsure if that's a bug or just how the moose mounts are (looking at the WoD one, it seems like it has an extra saddle bit?), but it just looks bad.

 

[Mothman91]

Anyone know if you can get mythic caches from mission hall? If so, how many bosses in mythic EN do you need to down to get mythic cache?

Also has anyone gotten ToV cache from mission hall?

 

[TheYanger]

Anyone know if you can get mythic caches from mission hall? If so, how many bosses in mythic EN do you need to down to get mythic cache?

Also has anyone gotten ToV cache from mission hall?

You absolutely can get mythic chests, I've been getting them for ages. Not sure on number of bosses, but last expansion it was two heroic clears and 1 extra boss? or 1 clear and 1 extra boss? Something like that. I almost feel like it might be based on your ilevel now but I could be way off, mine has been mythic since a couple weeks after the raid launched though.

 

[Einchy]

Conflicting reports but I believe it's 8 bosses done on mythic and I can say that was the case for a guildie and myself.

 

[Nokterian]

Ok ok i admit Blood Death Knight is awesome..like it more than unholy or frost and it does good damage even when solo looking warrior and druid tank in solo it is terrible when trying to do solo with that.

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

read this for the authentic warlock experience

 

[Strimei]

Are they doing a Timeless Isle or Tanaan equivalent for this Xpac or is that taken care of with WQ etc?

Tad early in the expansion to even know about it.

We know the Broken Shore will be the next area and then someplace in Argus apparently, but beyond that, we know nothing.

 

[Nokterian]

read this for the authentic warlock experience

Warlocks are so mistreated yet again i played all 3 specs now and affliction is ok but still not good enough they removed to much same goes towards demo and destruction.

Same goes for the demon hunter it is a fun class but the lack of different abilties is staggering it gets so boring so damn fast, you pushing at least 3 buttons for the most and that's it the rest is either cooldown.

 

[Lomax]

I like raiding because it's fun. I don't personally care if there's tier or not, but sometimes tier bonuses are interesting and can add to a rotation.

Also, gotta get xmog from all difficulties DUH!



This happens much too frequently now. Wondering if it's a bug or change in the system

Yeah it's pretty annoying when CTA still takes a lot of time.

HOWEVER, I am pretty sure the CTA bonus rewards disappearing when your queue pops is just a UI bug, you will still get your bonus rewards.

It's definitely not a UI bug, I've run instances several times and not gotten the bonus reward and wondered what was happening until I started noticing the pattern. I'm not sure if it's a "bug" or a "feature," I could see them making the change in order to stop the DPS satchels that happened a lot during WoD, but it's basically made me not do random queues at all now, so if it's a "feature" it's a very counter-productive one.

 

[HowZatOZ]

You absolutely can get mythic chests, I've been getting them for ages. Not sure on number of bosses, but last expansion it was two heroic clears and 1 extra boss? or 1 clear and 1 extra boss? Something like that. I almost feel like it might be based on your ilevel now but I could be way off, mine has been mythic since a couple weeks after the raid launched though.

Wait what?