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[Alex]

My problem with Shadow versus Holy is that the split of the class is too steep.

Almost every single player rolls Shadow until endgame, then rerolls Holy. This is flawed, in my personal opinion.

Holy needs some repairs made to it's damage spells (amoungst other things, removing Holy Nova entirely for something else would be wise, what a PoS) and Shadow needs to be more rounded so the so-called carrot on the end of the stick isn't such a thorn.

Currently, it requires you to climb the full tree to see solid results. Placing Silence, Vampiric Embrace, Shadow Weaving, Darkness and Shadow Form all as the bottom of the tree is way too skewed. Outside of Mind Flay, and perhaps Improved Fade, I can't say I've really seen much use from anything else I've distributed points into.

Personally, I would've liked some more utility and survivability in place of a damage tree, would rather not play a tripped out Warlock for the majority of my Priestly game. But as it stands, I'd get along with Shadow just fine if it didn't demand large ammounts talent points to be truly useful.

 

[Ferrio]

My problem with Shadow versus Holy is that the split of the class is too steep.

Almost every single player rolls Shadow until endgame, then rerolls Holy. This is flawed, in my personal opinion.

Holy needs some repairs made to it's damage spells (amoungst other things, removing Holy Nova entirely for something else would be wise, what a PoS) and Shadow needs to be more rounded so the so-called carrot on the end of the stick isn't such a thorn.

Currently, it requires you to climb the full tree to see solid results. Placing Silence, Vampiric Embrace, Shadow Weaving, Darkness and Shadow Form all as the bottom of the tree is way too skewed. Outside of Mind Flay, and perhaps Improved Fade, I can't say I've really seen much use from anything else I've distributed points into.

Personally, I would've liked some more utility and survivability in place of a damage tree, would rather not play a tripped out Warlock for the majority of my Priestly game. But as it stands, I'd get along with Shadow just fine if it didn't demand large ammounts talent points to be truly useful.

Isn't that the point, you sacrifice talent points on not so great talents to get a really really really good one? I mean that is pretty much the best talent offered for priest. Then Holy, you get lots good talents, but nova... just well eh.

I like how it is now... it makes it so a priest can't be a great healer and damage dealer at the same time. You pick one or the other..... they shouldn't be both.

 

[Alex]

I would say talents should supplement how a class is played, and offer a greater ease of use in said area. Not define it and skew it away into the exact opposite of it's conception.

The problem is that even if you supported that theory, a lot of trees across classes, including Priest itself, well, don't. It goes to show the poor structure if anything in some of the trees. At least that is how I see it.

I understand your point about not being one or the other entirely, but my feeling is you should be able to strike a middle ground. It'd be nice to be able to spend into early Shadow without feeling like you're totally throwing away talent points. Lots of folks have unusual playstyles due to the casual nature, and I don't think this really supports it at all.

Warcraft isn't like other MMO's, in fact, the majority of the game can be, and usually is a very anti-social, way too shut in affair. Even as a Priest you are going to solo or small group the majoirty of those sixty levels, and I don't think, especially as one of the few support classes, punishing players for picking one or the other is good design.

Of course, a lot of my problems lie with the game design itself, and I wished solo VS grouping was laid out with more options rather than being looked at as a "treat" in the occasional Instance or heavy Elite quest. Oh well, I seem to be the only person who feels that revolving a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER game around so much solo play is just downright awkward at times. I respect how much you can acomplish without having to rely on people, but a lot of the time I just miss my support roles.

Maybe I could've played it differently, or gotten into large groups more, but I don't see how... Maybe there's just something I'm missing.

 

[Monk]

The problem comes form the fact that 80% of the people playing WoW are crap. I would hate to be grouping all the time with these people. Also another problem is that you get next to no xp for questing with groups when it comes to enemies. Blizzard really need to give more of a bonus for those things.

 

[Alex]

Hehe, yeah. Well, there are always guilds and the average player would turn into a better teammate if it was more common.

I really don't want the game to become FFXI, where barring Beastmaster, most current level events were locked for groups only. But It is a Mass. Multiplayer game, I'd like to have that phrase adhere a little better.

Obviously, the game has a long way to go, and I hope heavier group play become a thing in the future, and by that I DON'T mean raids.

 

[Zaptruder]

It's difficult... to make the group exp fair and still have the mobs reasonably fightable when soloable. They've done pretty well in that respect... the other way would be to make all the mobs generally too tough, ala FFXI, but then expand the experience/level band of the lower level mobs... so that you could solo mobs that are currently 'easy' (i.e. some number of levels below you) and still have them give ~100xp. While other mobs 15-20 levels might still give 10-15xp (in FFXI terms, as opposed to WoW terms).
That way, while it is viable to solo exp or even duo it, it is still preferable to group for exp. It would also provide for a base minimum; if the group is under performing, then it's not worthwhile sticking with that group.

so.... 1500xp/hour solo, 2500 xp/hour in a normal group, and 3500+ in good groups and above.

 

[Ikse]

Well I've been playing an Undead Priest in the beta and really enjoying it. Beta ends tomorrow night and I have two massive dilemma's before retail arrives on Friday ><

Firstly, my decision on whether to go Rogue or Priest. I loved my Human Rogue in the US version, got it to 40 and decided to hold out until the EU version arrived, having my heart set on Troll Rogue. But now there are just so many of them being created, I fear for my role endgame - i hear they don't become *as* important in high end instances and add to that the amount being created, getting into end game groups may become difficult, so that's put a damper on the rogue idea atm.

Then there is the Priest, firstly I wanted to check out the Shadow spec Priest, but only got to lvl 20 atm, but I want to test out Mind Flay - see if that is much cop. But again, I'm enjoying the class a whole load, not too sure about the cloth only area, but that can be dealt with. It's the race that I'm having trouble deciding over - Undead to me, are just meh, I don't like their starting area much, and would need to do their quests if I ever want the Undead Steed. I also love troll, but their racial traits and spells by far feel inferior to UD's WotF and DP...

Argh - I have till Friday to decide, I don't want to suffer from altitis - I need a main focal point.

So, endgame wise -

Do Rogue become less important for raids/group events? If so, does a Troll Priest scream gimp - cos I'm a slight min/max player at heart =/

 

[Alex]

"Do Rogue become less important for raids/group events? If so, does a Troll Priest scream gimp - cos I'm a slight min/max player at heart =/"

Yes and no.

 

[Vennt]

Beta ends tomorrow night? Bah.... :\

Got my Warlock to Level 15, likely to play this class at retail, which I will be buying. I've not decided on Race yet, probably Human if I go Alliance & Undead if I go Horde. (I agree about the undead starting area, not inspiring, and watching the UD "lurch" for all my gametime could become annoying, but WotF... WotF could be the deciding factor really.)

Overall I've been impressed, however longetivity will depend on the endgame play, but worth a few months subscription to find out IMO.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Do Rogue become less important for raids/group events? If so, does a Troll Priest scream gimp - cos I'm a slight min/max player at heart =/

Do Rogues become less important? Shrug. We don't have the AOE, and crowd control that Mages bring... But we still bring excellent dps to the table, and during long boss mob fights we definitely have better sustained dps as we can control our agro better. Sap isn't totally worthless either. Sap > Warrior taunts mobs off Rogue > Mage polys. And when your group/raid wipes it's always nice having a vanished rogue(s) around to help the priests/shamans if they get agro from a patrol while ressing. There is also nothing like having a Rogue around to scout for randomly generated quest items (i.e. docs for Warlord's Command) etc when doing instance runs.

Then again I never group out of guild. I haven't been in a pickup group since the mid 30s. I have no idea what the general perception of Rogues are to the masses. I do know they are still a very viable class at 60 in raids and groups. But if you aren't in a well established guild the Priest is always going to get you into a group easier.

And no one race can make a specific class gimp. Some racial abilities are nice, but it really comes down to what you enjoy playing more. Stat wise they're really all the same when it comes to endgame. Troll Priests are fine.

 

[firex]

rogues are still really good boss killers, though a lot of the tougher bosses do aoe so hunters wind up taking that sustained physical dps role (kind of shocking that hunters wind up with a good endgame role!). as soon as the debuff limit is fixed warlocks will be a lot better at killing bosses, too. moreso than mages, at least. though it's not like a mage hasn't done their job when they've emptied all their mana nuking the hell out of a boss.

 

[Malakhov]

Rogues are shunned in high end instances most of the times. Yes they do great damage but they get hurt too often and require too much healing. A lot of my high lvl rogues friends who played in MC etc.. are rerolling priests and warriors as we speak as alts because of this.

 

[Malakhov]

though it's not like a mage hasn't done their job when they've emptied all their mana nuking the hell out of a boss.

And they can do it twice with evocation.

 

[firex]

also, quite frankly I find that since the level 60 instances are hard to 5 man without people geared appropriately, bringing 2-3 rogues for a 10 man raid is nice to gear everyone up for eventual 5 man groups. In chaotic situations like that I'd rather have a rogue who can take a few hits and has evasion and vanish to get out of really bad situations than mages who would get the crap kicked out of them too easily. it's not like mages aren't useful (I mean really, people want them for high level instances more than most other DPS classes... only possible exception being warlocks for soulstones and healthstones) but it's a lot more like they're brought along for conjured water for the healers. apparently warlocks can banish some of the really tough elemental mobs in molten core, so they can come in handy there too. I haven't set foot in it so I wouldn't know... but that's what I hear.

I'm also making a priest though, just so my guild has another priest for endgame raids (though we also need high level warlocks, so who knows which one of my characters will be brought along).

 

[Malakhov]

You want long range peeps in high end instances.

And mages are not wanted to conjure drinks and food, quite frankly their last food and drinks are shite for lvl 60s. They have to drink 4 of them to get a full mana bar.

Mages are wanted because of their extreme damage output and long range.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Mages are wanted because of their Instant Arcane Explosion and Polymorph.

Fixed.

 

[Malakhov]

:lol

Go do MC etc.. kthx

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

:lol

Go do MC etc.. kthx

:lol

MC isn't the only instance.

Oh, and regarding your "long range" comment. Go fight Onyxia in her little arena where range doesn't mean shit. kthxbye!

 

[Malakhov]

MC isn't the only instance kthxbye

Go to to Maraudon :lol
kthx

 

[Malakhov]

Oh, and regarding your "long range" comment. Go fight Onyxia in her little arena where range doesn't mean shit. kthxbye!

Way to go citing an out of ordinary encounter where only very few players have defeated her so far kthxbye!

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Go to to Maraudon :lol
kthx

I don't do level 45 dungeons full of trash mobs :lol

kthxbye

 

[firex]

You want long range peeps in high end instances.

And mages are not wanted to conjure drinks and food, quite frankly their last food and drinks are shite for lvl 60s. They have to drink 4 of them to get a full mana bar.

Mages are wanted because of their extreme damage output and long range.

I've done high end instances enough to know that you might want ranged dps (whether through a hunter or a caster) for a 5 man, but for a 10 man raid rogues are fine. And the conjured drinks aren't great but there's no better buyable drinks either... free drinks/food are a lot better.

 

[Malakhov]

http://www.sbmalice.com/beano_rogue.zip

Exactly why I've stopped playing a rogue, so boring.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Way to go citing an out of ordinary encounter where only very few players have defeated her so far kthxbye!

Same regarding your MC comments. For the majority of instances (BRS Upper/Lower, Stratholme, and Scholomance) Instant Arcane Explosion and Poly IS the reason you bring along mages. Their damage output is nice, but secondary.

 

[Malakhov]

And the conjured drinks aren't great but there's no better buyable drinks either... free drinks/food are a lot better.

Argent Quartermaster Lightspark in Chillwind Peak sells : Enriched Manna Biscuit. Effect is restore 2148hp/4140mana over 30seconds, must remain seated to eat.

 

[Cerebral Palsy]

Argent Quartermaster Lightspark in Chillwind Peak sells : Enriched Manna Biscuit. Effect is restore 2148hp/4140mana over 30seconds, must remain seated to eat.

That is true. They are pricey though.

 

[Malakhov]

Yeah 80silvers for friendly faction and 72s for honored faction I think.

 

[firex]

Argent Quartermaster Lightspark in Chillwind Peak sells : Enriched Manna Biscuit. Effect is restore 2148hp/4140mana over 30seconds, must remain seated to eat.

heh, those aren't really what I'm talking about though, if only because they're impractical to buy due to the cost and having to get the argent dawn rep to buy them in the first place. just straight up water or food doesn't improve any beyond the level 50 conjured stuff either... the main benefit, of course, is that it's free.

 

[Ikse]

Well I'm really swaying towards Troll atm then for my Priest, the pro's by far outweigh the cons imo, the only choice that is bothering me is the lack of Devouring Plague I hear everyone praising lately. What is the cooldown on it? And is it really as good as people make out?

 

[Malakhov]

heh, those aren't really what I'm talking about though, if only because they're impractical to buy due to the cost and having to get the argent dawn rep to buy them in the first place. just straight up water or food doesn't improve any beyond the level 50 conjured stuff either... the main benefit, of course, is that it's free.

Not that impractical really, all you need is 1 person in the guild who can get it for everyone. Also, the price is pretty much irrelevant at the lvl you can use them and I believe that you can pop a summoned drink and one of these since they are food too to combine both effects. They really need to balance out the drinks for mages at 60, having to drink 4 drinks to regain your mana and pretty much 6 if you need to buff your fellow players and yourself before being ready. I do understand it's a balancing issue but come on, there's a middle ground there to be put in place.

 

[Malakhov]

Well I'm really swaying towards Troll atm then for my Priest, the pro's by far outweigh the cons imo, the only choice that is bothering me is the lack of Devouring Plague I hear everyone praising lately. What is the cooldown on it? And is it really as good as people make out?

Don't worry about races, the difference in stats are irrelevant once gear is considered. The only thing that would make me change races is if I'd be playing horde and on a pvp server, then it would have to be undead for will of the forsaken alone.

 

[Alex]

I kept hearing Devouring Plague is pretty mediocre. Racial spell wise, I'd believe Dwarf is the best.

 

[Malakhov]

Racial spell wise, I'd believe Dwarf is the best.

Not if you're on a PvP server

 

[Alex]

I said Racial spell, not racial trait. Everyone knows you cannot compete with Undead PvP wise with that, hehe.

 

[Ferrio]

I kept hearing Devouring Plague is pretty mediocre. Racial spell wise, I'd believe Dwarf is the best.

Stone form sucks, except maybe for war/pal.

I've always been partial to the NE shadowmeld...

 

[MrCheez]

Well I'm really swaying towards Troll atm then for my Priest, the pro's by far outweigh the cons imo, the only choice that is bothering me is the lack of Devouring Plague I hear everyone praising lately. What is the cooldown on it? And is it really as good as people make out?

I play a troll priest so I've never had experience with Devouring plague, but it's on a 3 minute timer. The dmg it does seems very nice, and it heals as well... but it also has a high mana cost.

I can tell you that troll racial abilities are pretty useless. And troll priest spells are pretty useless as well. But... every Horde priest is undead. You'd be more unique as a troll, plus trolls are cooler. ;D

In the end, you should play whats most fun. Undead have better racial abilities and spells, but I don't think they would make you a better priest (save for being able to break out of fear in pvp as an undead). You only have so much mana to use, and you'll have plenty of other spells to use it on as a troll.

 

[Alex]

Night Elves are a bit too fruity even for myself to consider. Plus, they're all fuckin' crazy. Drop a fork during dinner and they'd likely call you a heretic and burn you in the name of cleansing something.

IT MUST BE CLEANSED.

 

[Vennt]

Hahaha, what an idea, "RP'ing" a Night Elf that suffers from OCD on an RP server is perversly tempting.

Oh wait, I entertained the idea of an RP server alt?

*hangs self*

 

[Malakhov]

Night Elves are too fruity for even for me to consider. Plus, they're all fuckin' crazy. Drop a fork during dinner and they'd likely call you a heretic and burn you in the name of cleansing something.

IT MUST BE CLEANSED.

:lol :lol :lol

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I play a troll priest so I've never had experience with Devouring plague, but it's on a 3 minute timer. The dmg it does seems very nice, and it heals as well... but it also has a high mana cost.

I can tell you that troll racial abilities are pretty useless. And troll priest spells are pretty useless as well. But... every Horde priest is undead. You'd be more unique as a troll, plus trolls are cooler. ;D

In the end, you should play whats most fun. Undead have better racial abilities and spells, but I don't think they would make you a better priest (save for being able to break out of fear in pvp as an undead). You only have so much mana to use, and you'll have plenty of other spells to use it on as a troll.

DP is rarely worth it unless I'm fighting Mages or Rogues. If I was swimming in INT gear, the ~440 cost for the tier 3 version with talent points in the instant cast cost reducer for 300 damage dealt and 300 healing, it would be useful everywhere in PvP and bosses.

Quick question, though; what's the Troll Priest-only spell?

 

[Monk]

Stone form sucks, except maybe for war/pal.

I LOVE stone form. It pwns rogues so hard its not funny. But its only good vs rogues. Against anyone else ity is useless.

 

[MrCheez]

Quick question, though; what's the Troll Priest-only spell?

We get a weaker version of the Shaman lightning-shield (which is nice, but I'd use it more if it were instant cast) and a really wussy hex spell that causes things to hit for slightly less (right now I never use it, but maybe the higher tiers are more useful).

 

[firex]

I gotta say that the dwarf gets imo the best racial spells overall (not traits, though) of the priests. Desperate prayer is nice because it's instacast and self-only so you get a mini self-heal that's actually pretty cool (humans get this also, I think). Fear ward is nice for pvp and for pve. Obviously it's not as good as will of the forsaken, and devouring plague is a strong pvp spell if you go for shadow talents. One thing I've found that makes hex of weakness nice is it can proc the blackout talent's stun (unless they changed it... during the last stress test I made a troll priest and got this to happen multiple times). So, when you get to a higher level you can spam this at rank 1 in pvp if you can't psychic scream and pray for a stun (now that I said that, I'm sure it will be nerfed, or has been nerfed).

Also, Alex, I'd look into making a shaman if you want to play a bard-type class. Totems really can be similar to twisting songs as a bard, though not as macro-intensive as Bards could be in FFXI. You get a similar feeling of accomplishment from the temporary/situational buffs totems give to your group and the class is a good soloer, but also a good healer and support class. There is a lot of bitching on the worldofwarcraft.com forums about how shamans are "overpowered" because of their equipment selection (which in reality is very important to them in pve and also keeps the horde from being out for int mail in the endgame) and spells, but in pve the class is like the ultimate group supporter without being a totally bland heal/buff bot. I play my shaman as a healer, but I melee in between heals in groups and keep an eye out on totems to make sure my party is receiving the right buffs for each encounter. It's not totally the same as playing a bard in other MMOs, but I think the feeling of using your different totems for buffs in groups can be loosely considered like playing a bard. Plus, unlike paladins, you won't have any grief from your own faction except among the totally clueless newbies. Shamans' most viable group role is healer, not tank, and while a competently played shaman can be a main healer for almost every 5 man instance in the game currently, they don't compete as much with priests or druids as a main healer as paladins do with warriors for a main tank. The class is also not going to receive many big nerfs (unless blizzard just absolutely fucking loses their mind) since the class is very well balanced for pve and isn't the invincible god character people make them out to be in pvp. One reason I liked my shaman so much in beta was it felt like a totally complete class by the end, and the gameplay doesn't require any more skill than any other class (realistically, pushing buttons is all you do for each class to oversimplify things) but I do think it required more awareness.

 

[nataku]

Shaman sounds like a fun class to play and is pretty balanced. Probably will be what I choose when I make a Horde alt. I still think Frost Shock is overpowered, though, and needs a slight nerf. It's snare shouldn't last longer than it's cooldown along with doing 500-1000 (crit) dmg, IMO.

 

[Ikse]

/sigh

I'm going on a pvp server so WotF does become pretty important in my choice I guess. The main thing that puts me off about Undead, is their starter areas. I can do The Barrens quests off heart , I've done them so many times, it would be quick and painless doing them again - it's what I did in Beta. However, reputation is my problem. For your own race mount, do you need Honored or Exhalted status? By the time I got to 15 or so I was Honored with Undercity, so I'm presuming i need Exhalted status, since that seemed a bit easy otherwise.

If I started levelling in The Barrens and getting reputation for TB, Org, Trolls, Ratchet etc my UC rep will take a giant hit in comparison and I don't want it kicking me in the ass when I get to afford a mount and don't have the correct rep status. Or are their quests in the 25+ region that will always give me UC rep whatever since I'll be in contested territory? I'm thinking Ashenvale - since again, I'm used to those quests, but I'm guessing its only Arathi/Hillsbrad that give UC rep ><. This is why Troll seems more worth it.

Meh :

Troll Pro's -
My fave horde race
I know the starter areas off heart which will be nice for my 4th time starting a char.
Better STA (which i feel is more important than SPI since the 5 sec regen rule)
Not many of them = cooler!

Troll Con's -
Crap racial spells and traits
Lack of WotF may come and bite me in the ass at endgame.


Undead Pro's -
Awesome racial spells and abilities which seem more worthwhile for endgame pvp fights

Undead Con's -
Dislike starter areas - getting reputation will be less enjoyable
Every priest is Undead


Do i go by what I prefer or what will be more worthwhile at endgame ><

 

[Zaptruder]

:lol

MC isn't the only instance.

Oh, and regarding your "long range" comment. Go fight Onyxia in her little arena where range doesn't mean shit. kthxbye!

When she takes off... don't you really want ranged in there to be dealing damage?

 

[Son of Godzilla]

mages should be renamed aebots.

Finally managed to off Baron in a 10 man today. Sheesh he's a tough lil cookie. Yay for more devout crap.

Also:: What's the medallion used for? I never really noticed anyone use it. I assume it's to open the big double gate into the abom courtyard?

 

[nataku]

I've killed Baron 8 times so far trying to get my Beaststalker's pants. I haven't even see it drop. Same thing goes for the helm in Scholo... 0/9 there. Haven't seen it drop. Baron isn't so bad... with a good party you can get it done in a little over an hour. Scholo on the other hand... there is no easy and fast way to skip to the last guy, so you're there for 2-3 hours depending on what your group wants to do. Every Scholo group I get into wants to do ALL of Scholo. Really sucks going through all of the instance, only to have what you wanted not drop.

 

[Malakhov]

Ikse: The undead start area is awesome. I bring all my horde chars out there to level them to about 14-15 and then head to the barrens.

 

[Ikse]

Ikse: The undead start area is awesome. I bring all my horde chars out there to level them to about 14-15 and then head to the barrens.

Hmm, do you still leave around that level if you are playing an UD char?