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Yeah, there are a couple nights we couldn't raid heroic Anub because of one missing person. Last night we couldn't finish the instance because our block tank lives in Brazil and they had massive blackouts yesterday due to Itaipu shutting down. A couple nights one of our two rogues was missing which made picking up adds cleanly with one tank nearly impossible. That type of thing.

We never have a lack of Paladins (usually 5 - 1 tank, 2 healers, 2 ret) and always have a DK.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
thatbox said:
Nah, you said "raid comp isn't all that important on that fight" "especially on heroic." I'm in one of thousands of guilds currently bashing our faces up against this fight and we've had to call the raid before because our block tank couldn't make it, we've had to swap out one of our mages (very likely the highest-DPS mage on the server) for his DK alt to place frost, we've had to bring in my paladin over my priest to get an extra BoP and everyone in the raid is respecced for AoE.

If you'd left off the heroic bit you'd have been right, since you could probably do every fight in normal with 25 of the same class, but acting like all the guilds cockblocked by Anub don't have to take some relatively strong (for WotLK) measures with raidcomp to ensure a chance at success rubbed me the wrong way.
It rubbed you the wrong way because you read it wrong.

That wasn't what I said at all. There's no way you could have reasonably interpreted it that way. I said, virtually every 25m, especially a Heroic, will have the three debuffs he mentioned, not "raid comp doesn't matter." That cannot be reasonably interpreted as, "raid comp doesn't matter, especially on Heroic." That is ludicrously nonsensical, not even remotely the point I was making, and almost virtually opposite to what I was talking about.

You're adding in some point about Heroic mode I didn't say that makes no sense just to argue. You're now so far afield I don't know what to tell you other than I can't argue a point that I wasn't making with you.
 
My guild suffers from that as well. Our guild leader is a raid healer and he's always available, but our best healer (disc priest) can be unreliable, and he's a drama queen. If he doesn't show up we can't do heroic/hard mode content.

I've been MT for awhile now since the official MT has been awol (we think he's playing Aion lol) for ages, and if I don't show up we can't do heroic content. Same deal if our top dps (hunter) doesn't show.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I can't say I blame people for not showing up.

"Hey, you want to run four different iterations of the same boring content?! AWESOME!"
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
Angry Grimace said:
I can't say I blame people for not showing up.

"Hey, you want to run four different iterations of the same boring content?! AWESOME!"

:lol

Patch 3.3 can't come soon enough. :(
 
3.3 will be interesting. It'll mark the first time I've been in a raiding guild as a real raid (not counting ToC) is introduced. I'm guessing/hoping a lot of people will come back and hopefully we'll get two successful 10 man groups going, maybe a 25 man group although our guild leader has no plans on doing it
 

thatbox

Banned
Angry Grimace said:
It rubbed you the wrong way because you read it wrong.

That wasn't what I said at all. There's no way you could have reasonably interpreted it that way. I said, virtually every 25m, especially a Heroic, will have the three debuffs he mentioned, not "raid comp doesn't matter." That cannot be reasonably interpreted as, "raid comp doesn't matter, especially on Heroic." That is ludicrously nonsensical, not even remotely the point I was making, and almost virtually opposite to what I was talking about.

You're adding in some point about Heroic mode I didn't say that makes no sense just to argue. You're now so far afield I don't know what to tell you other than I can't argue a point that I wasn't making with you.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, just trying to point out that H Anub 25-capable raids don't just make themselves. WotLK on the whole is pretty lenient about group makeup, but Anub has some specific requirements. I don't know what your experience is with the game, and I'm not trying to insult you. It just seemed like you may not have been familiar with some of the class requirements for this particular fight.
Angry Grimace said:
Raid comp isn't all that important on that fight. That's one thing I like about Wrath raiding, as long as you got your necessary classes, you can kind of pick up the best players/dps after that.
Angry Grimace said:
Virtually every 25m raid will have a MS, tank heals and raid heals, especially on a Heroic attempt.

I guess I meant more that DKs and Rogues don't really provide some stacking benefit on that fight a la Resto Shamans in the Sunwell. Maybe if you had like 3 Unholy DK tanks to stack Anti Magic Zone or something, but yeah.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
thatbox said:
I'm not trying to pick a fight, just trying to point out that H Anub 25-capable raids don't just make themselves. WotLK on the whole is pretty lenient about group makeup, but Anub has some specific requirements. I don't know what your experience is with the game, and I'm not trying to insult you. It just seemed like you may not have been familiar with some of the class requirements for this particular fight.
Except you are picking a fight, about nothing, to no one.

Nobody said any of those things you're claiming (i.e. "raid comp doesn't matter on Heroic"), and everything you quoted is out of context; you're just misinterpreting things and refusing to listen to anything said to you because you apparently want to argue and start fights. I'm telling you, for the third time, I didn't say "Raid Comp doesn't matter on Heroic." The only way you could have interpreted it that way is by not reading the actual conversation in context.

I don't feel like arguing an obvious point; especially given you're clearly not interested in listening to a thing you're being told and wanting to tell me how you interpreted something I said that I just told you you interpreted wrong. You're reading far too much into perfectly innocuous responses. Let me clarify it one last time: The First Response wasn't referring to Heroic mode; the parses Xabora linked were Normal Mode.

The second quote in particular is more out of context; I was responding to someone else was saying; he said "such and such buff is needed for this fight on Heroic" and I said, "every heroic attempt will have those." That does not = "Raid Comp doesn't matter on Heroic Anub."
 
PhoenixDark said:
3.3 will be interesting. It'll mark the first time I've been in a raiding guild as a real raid (not counting ToC) is introduced. I'm guessing/hoping a lot of people will come back and hopefully we'll get two successful 10 man groups going, maybe a 25 man group although our guild leader has no plans on doing it

This is my situation as well. I started playing last Christmas and joined a casual/social guild while leveling. A few of us got out of our starter 80 gear pugging Naxx on the side and broke off after Ulduar hit to start our own raiding guild, so Icecrown will be our first test with a long raid with trash.

We tear through ToC10 every week and pug missing spots for ToC25, but are having some trouble in ToGC10. We just beat the beasts last week, which was a pretty major accomplishment for us, but it's going to take some serious concentration to get further. Any tips beyond "get better" would be appreciated.

About 5-6 of us know our classes pretty well and are IMO pretty solid raiders, while the other spots are generally pretty geared (easy ToC10 gear), but only average players. At any rate, my only goal in the game was at first to simply see all of the standard content, so my situation right now is just icing. I'm glad to be running consistently with a reliable group of players and keeping the pugging to a minimum.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Also, World of Raids has the first 5-man loot from Icecrown too.

http://www.worldofraids.com/news/963-patch-3-3-ptr-build-10805.html

Puncture, I assume you mean the spell hit trinket. Yeah I don't get it, I don't need any hit from trinkets at all.:lol Plus.....I kinda dislike use trinkets instead of procs. I always forget them.

First Quel Dellar!

http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50048/quel-delar-might-of-the-faithful/

Better than the OEB for DKs if you don't have an expertise problem, otherwise it's dicey.
 

Xabora

Junior Member
Little writeup I did for my guild but dunno if you guys might find this handy.

Any who here are a few systems for DKP that can make life easier.

-Percent Based DKP-
This was originally devised back in Order of the Silver Hand to make loot fast and to disperse loot evenly between all

raiders.

Bosses are worth anywhere from 5 to 10 dkp each, with wing bosses worth around 11 or 12 dkp, and the Final boss at ~15 dkp.
Items were percent based on your dkp but took up a certain amount.

DKP Capped at 1000

Here is a cost system for T10, I'm including Normal and Hard-Mode here.

Normal
60% - For Set Armor Pieces (Head, Chest, Shoulder, Gloves, Legs, Tokens) [Crafting Orb Item for these slots]
55% - Non-Set Armor Pieces (Head, Chest, Shoulder, Gloves, Legs) [Lacking set bonus, therefore cheaper]
50% - Generic Armor (Boots, Bracers, Belt, Cloak) [Crafting Orb Item for these slots]
45% - Two Handed Weapons [Hunter Only - Ranged Weapon]
35% - Necklace, Rings, Trinkets, Relic/Ranged
25% - 1 Handed Weapons, Off-Handed Weapons, and Shields [Hunter Only - Two Handed Weapons]
00% - Offset Items [Free, gives people an incentive to actually take offset items instead of DEing]

Hard-Mode
65% - For Set Armor Pieces (Head, Chest, Shoulder, Gloves, Legs, Tokens) [Crafting Orb Item for these slots]
60% - Non-Set Armor Pieces (Head, Chest, Shoulder, Gloves, Legs) [Lacking set bonus, therefore cheaper]
55% - Generic Armor (Boots, Bracers, Belt, Cloak) [Crafting Orb Item for these slots]
50% - Two Handed Weapons [Hunter Only - Ranged Weapon]
40% - Necklace, Rings, Trinkets, Relic/Ranged
30% - 1 Handed Weapons, Off-Handed Weapons, and Shields [Hunter Only - Two Handed Weapons]
05% - Offset Items [Dirt-cheap, gives people an incentive to actually take offset items instead of DEing]

Crafting Items are based on cost of the slot divided by the number of items it requires.

This system was originally devised by Treehippy.

-Percent Based DKP ORIGINAL-
This system was originally devised by Treehippy.
Percent Based Cost pricing:
Percent based DKP = Dkp capped at 1000
60% DKP for tier items, 50% for non-tier
half price (30% / 25%) for off set items


-NCDKP-
This system is something I devised to keep item level as a way to determine price.
However each slot has a different worth.
Downside: Some Math

DKP Capped at 300.
Neg-DKP is capped at -50.
There is no true negative DKP in this.
Once in Neg-DKP its who ever has the highest DKP, or if multiable people are at -50DKP then its a roll off.

Normal Mode:
4 for normal bosses
8 for wing bosses
12 for final dungeon boss

Hard Mode:
6 for normal bosses
10 for wing bosses
14 for final dungeon boss

Slot Worth:
Token - 1.0
Head - 0.9
Shoulder - 0.9
Chest - 0.9
Legs - 0.9
Hands - 0.9
Back - 0.65
Wrist - 0.75
Waist - 0.75
Feet - 0.75
Neck - 0.4
Trinkets - 0.4
Finger - 0.4
Main-Hand - 0.55
One-Hand - 0.55
Two-Hand - 0.55 [Hunter Only]
Two-Hand - 1.15
Off-Hand - 0.55
Guns - 1.15 [Hunter Only]
Guns - 0.55 [Other Classes]
Wands - 0.55
Relic - 0.55
Ammo - 0.1
Offset items are Free to keep loot from being DE'd.
Crafting Items are based on cost of the slot divided by the number of items it requries.

ItemDKP = ( ( ( iLevel - 200 ) * ITEMSLOT ) * 2 )
Math is pretty simple, take the item level, subtract by 200, multiply by itemslot, then multiply by 2.

So lets say an [Axe of Rockin' Metal] drops.
Things to note:
It has an iLevel of 258
Its an Axe so Two-Hander

Math would look like this ((( 258 - 200 ) * 1.2 ) * 2 ) = 133.4 or rounded up 134 DKP.

Good thing with this system is hardmode prices scale due to Item level from the hardmode loot.


-Suicide Kings-
http://www.wowwiki.com/Suicide_Kings

Suicide Kings is a loot distribution system for guild raiding. Suicide Kings was designed to be a system that

distributes loot in decently fair manner, and nothing else. If you choose SK as your loot system, that means you are going to

have to find some other way to get players to perform well and show up when no loot drops. This emphasizes the point that SK

works better in casual and friendly environments where people show up to play first and foremost, and loot is but a happy

consequence. If loot is the main (or only!) reason people show up, SK is not the right system for you.

The basics of the system are as follows:

1. Players are put in an ordered list, usually based on a random roll (although some have made attempts to translate the

order from a pre-existing loot system). Multiple lists may be used (see below for discussion).
2. When a new player needs to be added to the list, it is possible to let him "roll in," or simply insert him at the bottom

of the list(s).
3. When loot is dropped, the person who wants it and is nearest the top of the list wins the loot and goes to the bottom of

the list.
4. Players who are not currently in the raid do not move up or down in the lists.
5. If no-one wants the item, it is up to the guild to decide what to do with it. See the SK FAQ for some suggestions.

Potential advantages over other loot systems

* Very transparent, and simple to maintain
* Loot distribution takes place very quickly
* Veteran players cannot build a large DKP lead, inflation is a non-issue
* A more casual gamer who does not attend very often can still work their way up the priority list to have an opportunity

at loot
* Works well for motivated guilds who don't need to use DKP bonuses as incentives
* Encourages people to pass on minor upgrades so others who need more can have a priority

Common modifications

Many of these modifications are implemented in order to compensate for some of the disadvantages.

* Attendance policy. E.g., a person with low attendance (e.g. less than 40%) can never outbid someone with higher

attendance, regardless of list position. This allows for more flexibility in "rewarding" attendance and punctuality.
* Resist gear is suicide-free. Often, this will be administered by a Loot Council.
* Separate lists for class-specific vs. cross class items. Running class-specific items such as set items or the BWL class

trinkets on their own list allows players to build their sets without sacrificing position for valuable cross-class items.

Also, it removes imbalances caused by different class populations.
* Separate lists for separate instances. This allows players to fill out gear from "lower" instances without sacrificing

position for loot in more-valuable instances. This allows new players that may still need lots of loot from the lower

instances to gear up there without sacrificing their position for loot in the higher instances. Sometimes, guilds may only

allow players to be added to the list for the higher instances after they have been with the guild for a while and/or achieved

a certain level of gear from the lower instances as well. This modification also allows for using a different loot type in

different instances.
* Separate lists for different types of loot. A good rule of thumb is that if players are passing on an entire type of

loot (such as AQ20 books) in order to hold out for better drops, it is time to split that type of loot to its own list. Note

that this mitigates the disadvantage related to minor upgrades, by allowing players to take loot they need without feeling

they have to "camp."
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Tamanon said:
Also, World of Raids has the first 5-man loot from Icecrown too.

http://www.worldofraids.com/news/963-patch-3-3-ptr-build-10805.html

Puncture, I assume you mean the spell hit trinket. Yeah I don't get it, I don't need any hit from trinkets at all.:lol Plus.....I kinda dislike use trinkets instead of procs. I always forget them.

First Quel Dellar!

http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50048/quel-delar-might-of-the-faithful/

Better than the OEB for DKs if you don't have an expertise problem, otherwise it's dicey.
Not THAT dicey. Weapon DPS = win.

It would be sex for Unholy now, but Haste is going down a lot. Haste is pretty decent for Unholy still, though, because Haste goes 100% to your pet.
 

VaLiancY

Member
Tamanon said:
http://www.worldofraids.com/images/news/icecrown/quel-delar-ferocity-of-the-scorned.jpg

This one might be even better for DKs. Although it's weird having a two-handed sword with agility.

dat_ass_yo.jpg

DAT ArP
 

traveler

Not Wario
Has the quest chain for Quel'Delar been posted yet? Seems like it might be an upgrade for me after all.

funkmastergeneral said:
So is the ilevel 264 gear being posted at mmo champ the regular Icecrown loot or heroic?

Pretty sure it's regular. Heroic should be about 277.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Tamanon said:
http://www.worldofraids.com/images/news/icecrown/quel-delar-ferocity-of-the-scorned.jpg

This one might be even better for DKs. Although it's weird having a two-handed sword with agility.
The damage range is like 100 lower on the Agi version one.

Haste is not that bad, really. It's just not "great" the way ArP was for Blood in 3.1.

It's significantly better than ArP for Unholy on Live. Like, I would take that Sword over Justicebringer any day of the month right now. I don't know what the stat weights in 3.3 for Unholy are, just that Haste is "less good." But on Live, Haste is like 2.19 and ArP is 1.32.

(Reference: stat weights are statistical models that try to assign a base value to stats for a specific spec; the "base" is 1 Attack Power = 1.)

funkmastergeneral said:
So is the ilevel 264 gear being posted at mmo champ the regular Icecrown loot or heroic?

The idea is,

251 = 10m normal, 264 10m heroic
264 = 25m normal, 278 25m heroic.

I absolutely hate Blizzard's "Heroic drops the same items, but "HEROIC VERSIONS!" lazy design where it's the same items with better stats.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Xabora said:
Basically, the "hard part" of the questline involves running all three new dungeons (it never specified Heroic or not for me on the PTR).

There are some initial quests not listed there, which are Lore intensive about ICC and the bosses in there (i.e. Lana'thiel and the San'lyn), including one that randomly has
Kalecgos
show up in it for a for shits n giggles cameo.
 

traveler

Not Wario
Xabora said:

Doesn't seem unreasonable at all. We just need to dedicate one evening to running all interested through the 3 dungeons taking breaks to turn in quests and then, viola, dkp free itm lvl. 251 weapons for everyone!

Edit: invincible confirmed to be an Arthas drop. Wonder if itll be a super rare mount (ala Alar) or hard mode guaranteed drop like the head?
 
Xabora said:


Any idea how the questline actually starts? Is it a rare drop in the 5 mans?

Also, new weapons look very cool. Some of them have neat procs instead of just stats.

traveler said:
Doesn't seem unreasonable at all. We just need to dedicate one evening to running all interested through the 3 dungeons taking breaks to turn in quests and then, viola, dkp free itm lvl. 251 weapons for everyone!

Edit: invincible confirmed to be an Arthas drop. Wonder if itll be a super rare mount (ala Alar) or hard mode guaranteed drop like the head?

Well hot damn, these are weapons everyone can get by just running the new 5 mans? That's pretty incredible, wish I actually needed them :lol
 

Cipherr

Member
So is the hilt that starts that quest what I grabbed from the glyph vendors on the PTR realm? I saw it on them and wondered what the heck that was. I grabbed some just for the hell of it :lol :lol

They must have put them there for testing the questline or something.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Xabora said:
Hilt looks like a rare drop from the Blood Queen (maybe).
http://www.wowwiki.com/Battered_Hilt


Nope, epic drop. ;_;
Ran Heroic Halls of Reflection on the PTR today.

I can confirm that on the PTR the Battered Hilt is a drop off of the second boss in the Halls of Reflection.

Halls of Reflection is fucking bad-ass.

It's basically, the first part is a Lore-bit with Jaina and Frostmourne. After that, the Lich King comes and forces you to fight 2 bosses, with 5 "spirit" waves in between, which are ghosts that come from all around the room and are of standard priest, mage, rogue warrior type. Undead, can be shackled if you need CC.

The bosses themselves, I forgot their names for now, are easy enough if your group is full of premades, but have a couple of wrinkles. For some reason, there's a elite mook right after this that makes you fight clones of yourself, I don't know if that's a bug or not, it was just a regular mob that summoned easy clones of the party.

Then you get to the Lich King himself (who has 28m Health and you can hit, but not kill) and you have to "escape" down a long gauntlet while he motherfuckin' hunts you down Terminator Style. He has a buff on him that slows him movement speed but he walks very slowly after you and if he gets close to you he slaughters you in one hit. All the while, you hit "barriers" on the way out and he casts Army of the Dead and you have to destroy the increasing sized waves for Jaina to break through.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Correction, the Battered Hilt seems to drop randomly from all mobs in the Frozen Halls instances.
 
Angry Grimace said:
The damage range is like 100 lower on the Agi version one.

Haste is not that bad, really. It's just not "great" the way ArP was for Blood in 3.1.

It's significantly better than ArP for Unholy on Live. Like, I would take that Sword over Justicebringer any day of the month right now. I don't know what the stat weights in 3.3 for Unholy are, just that Haste is "less good." But on Live, Haste is like 2.19 and ArP is 1.32.

(Reference: stat weights are statistical models that try to assign a base value to stats for a specific spec; the "base" is 1 Attack Power = 1.)



The idea is,

251 = 10m normal, 264 10m heroic
264 = 25m normal, 278 25m heroic.

I absolutely hate Blizzard's "Heroic drops the same items, but "HEROIC VERSIONS!" lazy design where it's the same items with better stats.

MUDFLATION!!!!

Oh yeah, that irks me, too. You see all these color schemes when the sets are debuted, but only 2 or 3 make it in game, making everyone look alike, especially with off-sets and shit. At least say "Heroic *thing I cant even remember the name of since its only better due to sheer iLevel ballooning, and will suffer the same fate in 3.3*"
 
So, MMO-Champion has spells for 2 Frostbrood Vanquishers. That's what the big headed frostwyrms you ride in some quests incliding the DK starting area are called. I'm still hoping the 4 frostwyrms they showed are obtainable outside Glory of the Raider achievements.
 

lordmrw

Member
This is torture. I'm at work right now and mmochampion is blocked so I can't look at the loot that drops from ICC. I'm gonna be sitting here all day wondering what the items are damn it.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
Oni Link 666 said:
So, MMO-Champion has spells for 2 Frostbrood Vanquishers. That's what the big headed frostwyrms you ride in some quests incliding the DK starting area are called. I'm still hoping the 4 frostwyrms they showed are obtainable outside Glory of the Raider achievements.


If I had to guess there's probably a 99% chance that you will have to do something hard to get one of those Armored frostwyrms.
 

Blackface

Banned
Icecrown is shaping up to be really good. Can't wait to see more of the loot that drops in 25 man. As it stands now, the caster weapon is a disappointment (hard mode Beasts is better for an Arcane mage).

It is also looking like Arcane mages are going to want four piece T10, and getting the crafted pants instead of the set ones.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Wrekt said:
Does just 1 drop or can the entire party loot it?
Standard loot you have to roll on. One per drop.

On current build they don't bind so they would probably sell for serious cash if you could sell them.
 
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