• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

World of Warcraft

Status
Not open for further replies.
Well looks like my return will be delayed because someone hacked my account while I was gone and blizzard shut it down.

I just got an email that they were using some third party program and now my account will not be reopened. Time to call up blizzard and raise some hell.
 

notworksafe

Member
vitaminwateryum said:
I guess I should mention that most of my gear is enchanted and filled with epic gems, it's the one or two pieces that could be replaced easily in a ToC10/25 group that I don't want to waste money on, sure I'll throw a cheap gem in there or one I'll buy one with honor, but no way am I spending 150G+ on something that I can replace the next week.
That's a fine excuses, but you can't expect random people who have no knowledge of your skill level to take you over someone that has all their gear enchanted when it's such a simple and cheap thing to do. Even if it is 150g, that's less then an hours worth of effort to get.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
Evlar said:
But if he's getting the job done...

Frankly, if I had a healer who could pull his weight while running around ICC naked I would keep him for the novelty of it, if nothing else. To kick someone for not having enchants, even though he's doing his job, is a pure expression of valuing stats over skills, which is an attitude that has always irritated me in MMOs.


That's like going to war with no bullets on purpose.

It's not a stat thing. There's a difference between not having 25HM ICC gear and not having enchants. One is that you don't have the chance to get because you're still working your way up, the other is skipping the basics on purpose for some retardo reason.


It shows you're willing to put the effort into the raid, not just get carried. Frankly no one will get to the point where they can keep up with fully enchanted people because they shouldn't even be in the raid to begin with.

I can't even believe there's a 'No enchant/epic gems' defense force. It's ridiculously cheap now. I can enchant my weapon with berserking 20 times for free with mats I get just from running heroics, before I even have to spend a bit of gold.

Get fully enchanted, gemed, and take off 1-2 pieces of gear. That's what you're doing by not getting enchants and gems.
 

Shouta

Member
vitaminwateryum said:
I gotta say, fuck gear score.

Getting turned down simply because my gear doesn't have enchants is stupid. Most of the times I go to ICC I easily sit on top of the healing charts no problem, it's so fucking dumb not being able to get into a group because people only want the best possibly geared people. It's not even that my gear is bad, I'm in ICC10 gear and various T10.

/end rant

You're basically in 251 gear and not enchanting? What the fuck?

I mean, I can understand penny-pinching if you're going to be replacing it really soon or you're totally out of money but if you're in ICC10 gear and T10s, you should be enchanting and gemming, even if it isn't the best. I mean, that's some of the best gear there is right now, spending a few hours to earn the cash isn't that hard.

That said, it's still dumb to kick you if you're sporting that level of stuff.
 

J-Rzez

Member
vitaminwateryum said:
I guess I should mention that most of my gear is enchanted and filled with epic gems, it's the one or two pieces that could be replaced easily in a ToC10/25 group that I don't want to waste money on, sure I'll throw a cheap gem in there or one I'll buy one with honor, but no way am I spending 150G+ on something that I can replace the next week.

Then what kind of gear are you talking about if you're in ICC/T10, but yet you can get gear out of ToC 10? Which pieces are they? Could you just throw on a "lower level" enchant just to have something on it to appease those people? I know people who are like this and wouldn't take you in based on that, and I have to say I can understand their reasoning at times. Just depends on your gear overall I guess.

It's funny though, one of our healers does use best enchants, but will use green and blue quality gems in their gear for some reason. :lol

Guy's one of the best healers I've ever played with though. He wouldn't have any problems getting into pugs rocking his King Slayer title.

Did you link your achievements for in there? How far were they going in there compared to how far you made it? Maybe they had someone else with similar gear that was properly enchanted/gemmed that was interested and they would most likely take said person instead because of that.
 

LAUGHTREY

Modesty becomes a woman
Shouta said:
You're basically in 251 gear and not enchanting? What the fuck?

I mean, I can understand penny-pinching if you're going to be replacing it really soon or you're totally out of money but if you're in ICC10 gear and T10s, you should be enchanting and gemming, even if it isn't the best. I mean, that's some of the best gear there is right now, spending a few hours to earn the cash isn't that hard.

That said, it's still dumb to kick you if you're sporting that level of stuff.


Eh, if I see a icc geared person with bad/no enchants the first thing thats going to come to mind is they got carried through it.

J-Rzez said:
Guy's one of the best healers I've ever played with though. He wouldn't have any problems getting into pugs rocking his King Slayer title.

Because that's hard to get.

I have it on 3 characters now and a 4th is 11/12.
 

J-Rzez

Member
LAUGHTREY said:
Because that's hard to get.

I have it on 3 characters now and a 4th is 11/12.

It does mean that he has seen, and completed every boss in there, thus knowing the fights. What I was discussing was with the title/achievement to link, it's easier to get into pugs. Relax the epeen.
 
Still not a fan of how anal people are of GS and Achievements before they'll take you anywhere, especially when most of them you've seen in the past begging to be taken somewhere. :lol
 

Cipherr

Member
Evlar said:
But if he's getting the job done...

Frankly, if I had a healer who could pull his weight while running around ICC naked I would keep him for the novelty of it, if nothing else. To kick someone for not having enchants, even though he's doing his job, is a pure expression of valuing stats over skills, which is an attitude that has always irritated me in MMOs.

Everyone loves hiding behind that 'skills' shit dont they. A lack of effort is a lack of effort, I dont care if you call it 'Im gonna upgrade them soon' or 'thats to much money'. Its a lack of give a damn is what it is. And thats fine, you dont have to care enough to enchant your stuff, but you cant come on my run. You are free to start your own however. People in 251's that know how to play (i.e. skills) are a dime a dozen, the spot will fill quickly.

Like someone said, its common freaking courtesy. If Im running a pug 10man on the weekend, understand that I dont know you, and Im trying to put together a run that wont waste everyones time. I have very few things by which to gauge you. Your achievements (which dont mean nearly as much anymore) your gear, whether or not you whine about having to use vent (its a pug, no Im NOT going to assume noone will need anything explained, get in vent or get lost), and the way you type (u r runinng ic, hey inviet pz).

You wanting in on a run (whether or not your a skilled player) and having not even put forth the effort to enchant your shit because you think youll replace it soon, will just cause you to not get to replace it soon....Because your not running with me. Its a meager amount of gold, of COURSE your going to replace it, you ALWAYS replace it, thats all the goddamn game is in pve is a gear treadmill.

Gem, enchant, the end. No exceptions, no you aren't just so leet that you get to stay in the run just because your doing well without them. Its the least you can do. Bitching about 150g like its real life money and wont end up back in your pocket from drops and gold off of the bosses by the end of the run is a quick ass way to get booted imo. I'm just shocked you seem to make it sound like that's only happened once.

Raiding is and always has been about team work, each person does all they can to minimize the struggle the group endures to get to the end. So no, you dont get to just say 'fuck it'. It doesnt work like that, no matter how good you think you are. If anything, Id boot you and replace you with someone just to keep 6 people from whispering me all run that "THAT GUY ISNT EVEN ENCHANTED, LOOK! INSPECT HIM!".
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I saw a DK in a weekly pug once that WAS enchanted and gemmed...with fill int and mp5 gems.

Enchanting costs basically nothing, even the "expensive" enchants don't really cost anything, but I'm more likely to use a slightly cheaper, but still good enchant on a piece that's sub 232 minimum (i.e., anything I could replace in a heroic I'll put say, +8 stats instead of +10).
 

notworksafe

Member
Raid Progression stuff on MMO-Champion

Nethaera said:
We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards

* 10 and 25-player (Normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
* 10 and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.


We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!

Shared lockout on 10/25 content is stupid. Just another BS fix for people zerging content. I don't really care because my guild is pretty much 10s only, but I know other people are sure to be pissed.

Angry Grimace said:
I saw a DK in a weekly pug once that WAS enchanted and gemmed...with fill int and mp5 gems
I see a lot of DKs in randoms with SP gems and I never understand the point. I often notice Hunters with Defense and MP5 gems as well
 

FLEABttn

Banned
Evlar said:
But if he's getting the job done...

Which I will never know because if he's missing enchants and gems, he won't be invited to the raid.


EDIT: That post above me is awesome. It'll piss off a good amount of 25 man guilds though. Whatever, benefits me and not my problem.
 

arhra

Member
No, that's a really awesome change.

Then again, i only do 10s already.

Fuck 25s.

I've been saying it should work like that since LK beta.
 

notworksafe

Member
The gear change makes sense. 25s aren't harder as far as content goes, just for managing people. If you want the best gear you'll have to do Heroic content.

Maybe Blizz should put in a lockout for normal mode and a lockout for heroic mode.
 

CassSept

Member
Ahahahaha, Blizzard completely kills the purpose of 25-man raiding with this change :lol
I'm glad I've quit this game earlier this year because this change is simply laughable.
Reasons:
a) it's way harder to complete and manage a 25-man group than 10-man group
b) it's impossible to balance out the same encounter on 10-man or 25-man. All the time one of them will be easier and there is no way to make it even
They might say "very simillar in difficulty", but it's impossible. In early WotLK 10-mans were too hard. After 3.1 it was completely changed, and 10-mans became 'retard-modes', laughably easy.
IMO they found a sweet spot in 3.3. But no, they have to go on and destroy everything.
GG Blizzard, GG.
 

moojito

Member
You would think after all this time you would have some faith in bliz. On the face of it this looks like an absolutely terrible change, but I also know from experience that bliz know what they're doing. I'll wait and see what happens before spitting my dummy out.
 

notworksafe

Member
Yeah at the moment it sounds stupid, but I somewhat see the point. It is a bummer for guilds that run 10s and 25s like my old guild would. In BC we would have two 10 man groups for rushing through Kara and a 25 man group for everything else. I guess it made more sense to do that when 10s and 25s were totally different raids.

Like I said, I think a lockout based on gear level makes sense. That way guilds could have different zerging groups for normal mode content, and then all get together to tackle hard modes.
 
moojito said:
You would think after all this time you would have some faith in bliz. On the face of it this looks like an absolutely terrible change, but I also know from experience that bliz know what they're doing. I'll wait and see what happens before spitting my dummy out.

The same people complained about getting rid of 40s, then they complained about having 10/25 versions of the same raids. Guess what? Both of those changes were great.
 

Interfectum

Member
Yeah it does sound really dumb, but like other posters have said they are obviously doing this for a reason. Lets just wait and see how it shakes out before determining that this is what will kill WoW (after the 1,253 other times WoW was supposed to die).
 

notworksafe

Member
Interfectum said:
Yeah it does sound really dumb, but like other posters have said they are obviously doing this for a reason. Lets just wait and see how it shakes out before determining that this is what will kill WoW (after the 1,253 other times WoW was supposed to die).
What do you mean?!

WoW totally did die after 40 mans were removed! And after Shaman/Paladin went to both factions! And after the BC raid nerfs! And after the badge system! And after Death Knights! And after the leveling changes! And after achievements! And after Wrath raid nerfs! And after the ICC buff!

Yep, this is the end.
 

Door2Dawn

Banned
These changes are probably for the better. For everyone whose complaining about the lockout system, this is pretty much how it existed until wotlk came out. Vanilla there were your 20 mans and your 40 mans, could only run each one once per week. TBC there were your ten mans and your 25 mans, could only run each one once per week. Now that wotlk comes out everyone suddenly thinks they deserve to run the SAME raid twice every week? How does that make sense?
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
It's a nice change because 25 mans have always been horrible for me, to the point where the only 25 man i wanna do right now is VOA. Naxx 25 back in early 2009 was horrible when i tried it, didn't bother with Ulduar 25, TOC 25 couldnt even beat the champions and i gave up after a bunch of attempts and players cursing & being impatient, and the 1 time i tried ICC 25, people kept wiping on the 2nd boss and people were cursing left & right.

I'm done with them. I'm not in a 25 man raiding guild, so all i ever did was 25 mans pugs. 10 mans was always a better experience, whether it was with my guild or even with a pug.
 

CassSept

Member
ShallNoiseUpon said:
The same people complained about getting rid of 40s, then they complained about having 10/25 versions of the same raids. Guess what? Both of those changes were great.
Well, 10/25 sounded strange because we didn't have all the details, though I wasn't so against it. I understood the reasons and thought it was interesting.

Now this? 25 mans are infinitely harder to manage. Most guilds have 10-15 'core members' that pull the progress either way. You think these people will want to be slowed down by the other "filler members"?
I may understand the reason behind putting same ilvl for 10mans and 25mans (even though it is entirely impossible to even out the difficulty). But why are they putting 10-man and 25-man on the same lockout? This looks like an obvious attempt to destroy 25-man raids.
If they stick to it, this will easily lead to break-up of over 50% (probably even more) of 25-man guilds.
As for the gating... I'm ok with it if they don't go to it the ToC way (1 boss per week, zzzzzzz) and limited attempts don't make the return.

At least they are re-introducing TBC style of two-raids-per-tier.

Edit: Just to clear this up. The point is, I fucking love 25-mans. They were my only purpose of playing World of Warcraft. 10-mans having good loot in WotLK were a burden for me, I ran them for loot and nothing else. This change will kill most of 25-man guilds, I won't be surprised if my guild too. I want to progress 25-mans, but making it in the same lockout as 10-mans is gonna turn thousands upon thousands of players off 25-mans.
 

FLEABttn

Banned
I think Blizz did this for three main reasons.

1) Curb stat inflation
2) End the gear subsidy the 10 man raids were providing to the 25 man raid guilds (which in turns ends a need of Blizz to balance the 25 man fights off the assumption that guilds are gearing themselves up in 10 mans as well)
3) Reduce required raid time. And I say required because there are plenty of guilds out there who will gladly bench someone from 25 mans if they're not doing the 10 mans as well.
 

sykoex

Lost all credibility.
I like the idea of 25 man dropping the same loot, just more of it.

Regarding the 1 lockout thing, if you thought getting into a pug raid was hard now (LFM Ony 10, 5500+ GS ONLY), forget about it in Cata. It'll be so prohibitive that pug leaders will be looking for a definite sure thing when making groups.
 
CassSept said:
Well, 10/25 sounded strange because we didn't have all the details, though I wasn't so against it. I understood the reasons and thought it was interesting.

Now this? 25 mans are infinitely harder to manage. Most guilds have 10-15 'core members' that pull the progress either way. You think these people will want to be slowed down by the other "filler members"?
I may understand the reason behind putting same ilvl for 10mans and 25mans (even though it is entirely impossible to even out the difficulty). But why are they putting 10-man and 25-man on the same lockout? This looks like an obvious attempt to destroy 25-man raids.
If they stick to it, this will easily lead to break-up of over 50% (probably even more) of 25-man guilds.
As for the gating... I'm ok with it if they don't go to it the ToC way (1 boss per week, zzzzzzz) and limited attempts don't make the return.

At least they are re-introducing TBC style of two-raids-per-tier.

Edit: Just to clear this up. The point is, I fucking love 25-mans. They were my only purpose of playing World of Warcraft. 10-mans having good loot in WotLK were a burden for me, I ran them for loot and nothing else. This change will kill most of 25-man guilds, I won't be surprised if my guild too. I want to progress 25-mans, but making it in the same lockout as 10-mans is gonna turn thousands upon thousands of players off 25-mans.

No, if they wanted to kill 25s, they would just, you know, remove them from the game like they did with 40s, not some subverted plan to secretly destroy them.

Edit: If it kills your guild because they don't want to run 25s, that is your guild's problem, not Blizzard's.
 

Flib

Member
Oh man, as someone who hates 25mans but ran and lead them for a long time, I love this. Much prefer raiding with a focused 10man team.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
notworksafe said:
Raid Progression stuff on MMO-Champion



Shared lockout on 10/25 content is stupid. Just another BS fix for people zerging content. I don't really care because my guild is pretty much 10s only, but I know other people are sure to be pissed.


I see a lot of DKs in randoms with SP gems and I never understand the point. I often notice Hunters with Defense and MP5 gems as well
I actually said maybe 100 pages back, "they should share the lockout timers on 10 and 25" and have the same loot. I didn't suggest they be the same ilvl, but this is a nice change for people that like to convince themselves 10 is easier than 25 when you aren't overgearing it by a full tier.
 

notworksafe

Member
CassSept said:
Well, 10/25 sounded strange because we didn't have all the details, though I wasn't so against it. I understood the reasons and thought it was interesting.

Now this? 25 mans are infinitely harder to manage. Most guilds have 10-15 'core members' that pull the progress either way. You think these people will want to be slowed down by the other "filler members"?
I may understand the reason behind putting same ilvl for 10mans and 25mans (even though it is entirely impossible to even out the difficulty). But why are they putting 10-man and 25-man on the same lockout? This looks like an obvious attempt to destroy 25-man raids.
If they stick to it, this will easily lead to break-up of over 50% (probably even more) of 25-man guilds.
As for the gating... I'm ok with it if they don't go to it the ToC way (1 boss per week, zzzzzzz) and limited attempts don't make the return.

At least they are re-introducing TBC style of two-raids-per-tier.

Edit: Just to clear this up. The point is, I fucking love 25-mans. They were my only purpose of playing World of Warcraft. 10-mans having good loot in WotLK were a burden for me, I ran them for loot and nothing else. This change will kill most of 25-man guilds, I won't be surprised if my guild too. I want to progress 25-mans, but making it in the same lockout as 10-mans is gonna turn thousands upon thousands of players off 25-mans.
Why not just run only 25s? The gear will be the same.
 
Angry Grimace said:
I actually said maybe 100 pages back, "they should share the lockout timers on 10 and 25" and have the same loot. I didn't suggest they be the same ilvl, but this is a nice change for people that like to convince themselves 10 is easier than 25 when you aren't overgearing it by a full tier.


This did not even cross my mind until you brought it up.
 

arhra

Member
If they stick to it, this will easily lead to break-up of over 50% (probably even more) of 25-man guilds.
...And?

Are we supposed to care?

If a 25m guild breaks up over this, in favour of running 10mans only, then clearly the members find 10mans more fun/less hassle. Why/how is this a bad thing, exactly?

If you personally find 25s more fun, feel free to find a group of likeminded people and have at it, i'm sure there'll still be some of you around.

This is how the 10/25 split should have worked from the start.
 

Bisnic

Really Really Exciting Member!
ShallNoiseUpon said:
This did not even cross my mind until you brought it up.

*People raiding ICC 10 in full 264*

"Fuck, this place is so fucking easy, way to FAIL blizz!"

I'd like to see them say that with gear at 232 and below. But then, they wouldn't even want to raid it because "You need 5.2k GS or more"
 

CassSept

Member
notworksafe said:
Why not just run only 25s? The gear will be the same.
Because it will kill approximately 99% of 25-man guilds. To raid 25s you first need to have a 25-man guild, you know.
Better gear right now is sort of a carrot-on-a-stick. You have more people to choose from and more people flocking to 25-man guilds. This will cause a huge break-up in the top raiding community, destroy most of guilds and limit the choice of people.
It is way harder to organise 25 raid. You rely on way more people.


But this stupid bickering is pointless anyway. I will not change my view, you won't change your views. I will still think that this is a terrible change, you may think it's a good one. I see some redeeming factors of it, but most of this is horrible news to me, but I don't intend on getting into dumb nerd fights over it.

but this is a nice change for people that like to convince themselves 10 is easier than 25 when you aren't overgearing it by a full tier.
If you know tactics it is, we easily ran ToC10-HC with our alts >.>''
 

notworksafe

Member
CassSept said:
Because it will kill approximately 99% of 25-man guilds. To raid 25s you first need to have a 25-man guild, you know.
Better gear right now is sort of a carrot-on-a-stick. You have more people to choose from and more people flocking to 25-man guilds. This will cause a huge break-up in the top raiding community, destroy most of guilds and limit the choice of people.
It is way harder to organise 25 raid. You rely on way more people.


But this stupid bickering is pointless anyway. I will not change my view, you won't change your views. I will still think that this is a terrible change, you may think it's a good one. I see some redeeming factors of it, but most of this is horrible news to me, but I don't intend on getting into dumb nerd fights over it.
From 50% to 99% in only two posts! That was fast.

I'm sure it will be easy to find a 25 man guild. People like to run them for reasons I will never understand so you'll find like minded people to run them.

Our guild is pretty much 10s only though. We have one person with a piece of 25 man gear but other then that it's all 10s for us.
 

Rapstah

Member
I pulled General Krakork (the 720 000 HP guy) from Thrallmar to Honor Hold today, was fricking hilarious because even with every single guard there attacking him it took like 15 minutes for him to die.

213fccx.jpg


If anyone's bothered by the extremely large screenshot I'll replace it with a 1024*768 rescaled one. :/
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
notworksafe said:
From 50% to 99% in only two posts! That was fast.

I'm sure it will be easy to find a 25 man guild. People like to run them for reasons I will never understand so you'll find like minded people to run them.

Our guild is pretty much 10s only though. We have one person with a piece of 25 man gear but other then that it's all 10s for us.
I don't like 25s for a lot of reasons, and it's nice to see that Blizzard finally recognized that the big reason their content actually got seen by more than 3% of the population was largely because you could find a smaller guild to do it with.
 

CassSept

Member
Angry Grimace said:
I don't like 25s for a lot of reasons, and it's nice to see that Blizzard finally recognized that the big reason their content actually got seen by more than 3% of the population was largely because you could find a smaller guild to do it with.
But wasn't this recognised by the WotLK 10/25 split >.>''?
 

notworksafe

Member
Rapstah said:
I pulled General Krakork (the 720 000 HP guy) from Thrallmar to Honor Hold today, was fricking hilarious because even with every single guard there attacking him it took like 15 minutes for him to die.

http://i39.tinypic.com/213fccx.jpg[IMG]

[spoiler]If anyone's bothered by the extremely large screenshot I'll replace it with a 1024*768 rescaled one. :/[/spoiler][/QUOTE]

Is that some lolsmite? You are my hero.
 

Cipherr

Member
Most guilds have 10-15 'core members' that pull the progress either way. You think these people will want to be slowed down by the other "filler members"?

The bolded is the only thing I worry about. Our guild is no different. About 15 to 16 really REALLY core members, so as long as we have bodies for the other spots that can play a bit we are going to clear. We may try and maintain the 25, but after you get the LK down and raid signups on the final raid day of the week are always 21 out of 25 it kind of makes me wonder how the officers are going to decide what to do in Cata.

If we raid with only 10 of our core, we will destroy the content, quickly easily and reliably. How many of them are going to be ok with slower progression for the sake of the 25 mans? My spot as a dps is solidified either way, but not every person in my guild will be. And yet all of them are good people and fun to raid/laugh with during raids.

Despite whether or not these changes end up being for the best, the shrinking of raid sizes (lets not kid ourselves, this will indeed tip the average raid size more towards 10 rather than 25) has at the very least been unfortunate. A lot of guilds have to restructure and stuff when changes like this go in, and its happened twice now in WoW. If only it could have been the way they are planning for cata, at release. Would have saved alot of hurt feelings and guild drama and guild separations.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Puncture said:
The bolded is the only thing I worry about. Our guild is no different. About 15 to 16 really REALLY core members, so as long as we have bodies for the other spots that can play a bit we are going to clear. We may try and maintain the 25, but after you get the LK down and raid signups on the final raid day of the week are always 21 out of 25 it kind of makes me wonder how the officers are going to decide what to do in Cata.

If we raid with only 10 of our core, we will destroy the content, quickly easily and reliably. How many of them are going to be ok with slower progression for the sake of the 25 mans? My spot as a dps is solidified either way, but not every person in my guild will be. And yet all of them are good people and fun to raid/laugh with during raids.

Despite whether or not these changes end up being for the best, the shrinking of raid sizes (lets not kid ourselves, this will indeed tip the average raid size more towards 10 rather than 25) has at the very least been unfortunate. A lot of guilds have to restructure and stuff when changes like this go in, and its happened twice now in WoW. If only it could have been the way they are planning for cata, at release. Would have saved alot of hurt feelings and guild drama and guild separations.
I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard just likes designing 10s more than 25s. It's probably easier to account for 10 guys rather than 25. Then again, there's generally a much bigger margin for error in 25s since I've never been in a raid where nobody was being carried along.
 

FLEABttn

Banned
Puncture said:
Despite whether or not these changes end up being for the best, the shrinking of raid sizes (lets not kid ourselves, this will indeed tip the average raid size more towards 10 rather than 25) has at the very least been unfortunate.

Unfortunate for those who benefited from the old system perhaps. There was nothing unfortunate about rolling out 10 man raids after 2 years of getting just enough people together to run an in house 20 man in attempt to get to a critical mass for 40 mans, only to have a 40 man guild poach someone.
 

Cipherr

Member
Bisnic said:
*People raiding ICC 10 in full 264*

"Fuck, this place is so fucking easy, way to FAIL blizz!"

I'd like to see them say that with gear at 232 and below. But then, they wouldn't even want to raid it because "You need 5.2k GS or more"


On that note, theres going to be a lot of "out of fucking nowhere" competition on the level of server first 10 man achievements and clears. That statement Grimace made goes both ways. Theres alot of bad players who pat themselves on the backs for clearing 10 mans in H-25 man loot. But when your shrinking it down to 10, theres alot of 25 man guilds out there that arent in the running for any server firsts, but reduce the count to 10, and its easier to end up with 2 handfuls of really talented players. I know that if we take a core of 10 that we will be on the bleeding edge of clearing the content. At least 10 of us are as hardcore as it comes, and could easily compete for the best of our classes on the server. We just cant make that claim outside of 8 or 9 players or so.

Should this minimizing happen, the competition for that shit will be fierce, as we, and I assume TONS of other new 10 man guilds wont be held back by reasonable things like not knowing the fight before you get there not willing to throw as many hours at it as need be. It will be interesting to see the reaction when those server firsts start going out to "who the eff are they? Never even heard of them" guilds because of that.

FLEABttn said:
Unfortunate for those who benefited from the old system perhaps. There was nothing unfortunate about rolling out 10 man raids after 2 years of getting just enough people together to run an in house 20 man in attempt to get to a critical mass for 40 mans, only to have a 40 man guild poach someone.

I said unfortunate due to the consolidation of guild sizes related to those changes. Its very possible to meet nice people, and just not be able to keep them RAIDING because they arent hardcore, or cant raid 4 days a week, or arent top notch players at their class and you have no room for them. I'm talking about making friends in game in your guild, and not having them around for the new raids when the sizes shrink. Not the chronicles of "zomg dey took ar pplz". Why does everyone act so goddamn one dimensional. I hate the WoW community sometimes.
 

Retro

Member
I see nothing but good things from this new Direction. I don't feel like looking it up at the moment, but quite a few pages back I mentioned 10 and 25 mans should either be completely different or share the same lockout and loot. Glad to see they're changing things for the better.

I might actually bother to join a raiding guild come Cataclysm if all I have to deal with are 9 people. I figure I can make friends with at least... two... maybe.:lol
 

FLEABttn

Banned
Puncture said:
Why does everyone act so goddamn one dimensional. I hate the WoW community sometimes.

No more than you, get off your ivory tower. Nothing more one-dimensional than saying regardless of any upside, this is at the very least unfortunate.
 

notworksafe

Member
Retro said:
I see nothing but good things from this new Direction. I don't feel like looking it up at the moment, but quite a few pages back I mentioned 10 and 25 mans should either be completely different or share the same lockout and loot. Glad to see they're changing things for the better.

I might actually bother to join a raiding guild come Cataclysm if all I have to deal with are 9 people. I figure I can make friends with at least... two... maybe.:lol
Hey now, I think 10 man teams are the best to build a close team of players. We've got a mix of 11 people that raid regularly and we're all very close and have pretty much no interest in 25s. Though that's probably a rarity the more I think about it.
 

J-Rzez

Member
These are excellent changes for the most part!

Finally Blizzard recognizes that 10-man is just as difficult as 25-man. Finally they realize that they couldn't balance their encounters in 25-man gear from prior raids because they'll overpower 10mans and their overall item levels will be slightly higher than what's tuned for.

My concern is that I enjoyed pugging in a 25-man here and there when bored. This part will suck but whatever. I have enough alts I guess.

My hopes are that since they have to mess around less with recoloring the same models, they'll actually be able to invest more time in the models of items themselves, which were lack luster in Wrath.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom