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World of Warcraft
- Thread starter Cerebral Palsy
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Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'm just messing with you a bit.Retro said:
Although it is true that the type of class inbalances they were referring to didn't exist until the later 25s, i.e. when in Sunwell nobody wanted anything but Shaman healers and Warlocks, mages were losing spots to Warlocks, etc. etc. The problem was that in Sunwell there were extremely specific comps required to succeed, although you can easily make the argument that stacking only ended up necessary because Sunwell, etc. were brutally difficult to the point the only way to win was to raidstack.
Tacitus_ said:
Obviously that's oversimplifying things a bit too much; each has functions that the other can't perform. Likewise, there isn't a single buff or debuff that every single class can apply. But that doesn't mean that 5 out of 10 classes having the same buff or debuff is a great situation either.
What I'm saying is, WoW seems to be hanging between the two extremes (No classes vs. more defined classes), which is actually less interesting to me as a Player than favoring one over the other. I want to know that rolling a Hunter means more than pressing a button to shoot for 1000 damage and a debuff instead of pressing a button to punch for 1000 damage and a debuff. Again, that's oversimplifying things quite a bit, but I hope you get my meaning...
The classes are all basically doing the same thing in not-to-different ways (i.e. they all handle differently but perform the same functions) and to me that's just not very interesting. It's not there yet, but it feels like things are headed to a point where Class will mostly be a cosmetic choice.
Angry Grimace said:
Right, I wouldn't point the finger at Class Imbalance in that case, I'd point it at poor content design. Making players sit out or shoulder entire raids because of a grossly under-informed decision they made 70+ levels ago doesn't mean the classes are borked, it means your content needs more variety to allow for the wider variety of player roles.
Right now Blizzard is saying "We'd rather increase the odds that you have the right tools" instead of developing content that has more than a single working strategy.
"Everyone gets a hammer" is not a solution to "every problem is a nail". :lol
Not really, no. The classes are becoming more diverse each expansion. For example, mages and warlocks handled exactly the same in vanilla (if you knew what you were doing). Now, they are wildly different due to new spells and talent mechanics.
Having Sunder armor, Expose armor and Faerie Fire apply the same (nonstackable) debuff instead of FF stacking with the first two but Expose overwriting Sunder does not magically make them perform the same.
They are raid debuffs/buffs. Not core class gameplay mechanics (Bloodlust is arguable, but only having it on one class is a PITA, especially when doing 10m raids).
E: Oh dear. You should shut up now since you're veering into the I-have-no-idea-what-I'm-talking-about territory. Sunwell is propably one of the best designed instances (or was back in TBC). Raid leaders had to put up those specific comps because the other classes just couldn't pump out high enough numbers.
You say make more solutions - there's no second solution to a DPS/Heal check. If your raid had to pump out 30k raid DPS (Bruta numbers IIRC), then you stacked the raid so that you could do it and benched the classes that just couldn't keep up due to how they were designed.
Having Sunder armor, Expose armor and Faerie Fire apply the same (nonstackable) debuff instead of FF stacking with the first two but Expose overwriting Sunder does not magically make them perform the same.
They are raid debuffs/buffs. Not core class gameplay mechanics (Bloodlust is arguable, but only having it on one class is a PITA, especially when doing 10m raids).
E: Oh dear. You should shut up now since you're veering into the I-have-no-idea-what-I'm-talking-about territory. Sunwell is propably one of the best designed instances (or was back in TBC). Raid leaders had to put up those specific comps because the other classes just couldn't pump out high enough numbers.
You say make more solutions - there's no second solution to a DPS/Heal check. If your raid had to pump out 30k raid DPS (Bruta numbers IIRC), then you stacked the raid so that you could do it and benched the classes that just couldn't keep up due to how they were designed.
Brutallus <3Tacitus_ said:
Fuck me, but really, back then every dps increase made me happy. Reaching 2k for the first time and then going on with dps becoming bigger and bigger as I got upgrades. Now dps can go from raid to raid up or down by few hundred and nobody will even notice
CassSept said:Brutallus <3
Fuck me, but really, back then every dps increase made me happy. Reaching 2k for the first time and then going on with dps becoming bigger and bigger as I got upgrades. Now dps can go from raid to raid up or down by few hundred and nobody will even notice
Yeah, bruta was so fun, especially after I coaxed our RL to let me in his group (we both played warlocks back then). Timing both of my trinkets and a Haste Potion with Blood Lust... oh yeah.
Remember, back then BL was group specific. Clearly making BL raidwide is a nerf to the intricate balances of group making and this only shows how far Blizz is going to dilute the game.
/sarcasm
Tacitus_ said:
The mechanics behind each class are getting more interesting, but at the same time the number of things those mechanics can do is decreasing. For example, Holy Paladins are gaining all sorts of new tools that will allow them to be more mobile while healing, and they're getting a cool new Holy Power mechanic.
But all it's really doing is letting Paladins have the same mobility that other healers have had in the past, which means raid encounters don't have to be designed to allow for for a less-than-mobile healer. All healers may end up effectively the same, despite different mechanics and play styles.
Tacitus_ said:
Right, they are just debuffs and buffs, but I'm talking more about an underlying design theory; that it's now easier to use the same blanket strategy because everyone has the same blanket tools. The chance that some situation will arrive where you have to creatively think goes down because the strategy will never need to change if you always have access to the same options.
Tacitus_ said:
This is the exact kind of design I'm talking about; you have to stick to specific raid compositions because the encounter designers painted such a narrow solution. Since players were clearly upset that their class didn't fit into the design of specific encounters, Blizzard's solution is "Everyone can do roughly the same things" when another option would be "How can we design encounters so that there are alternatives to x,y,z?"
Tacitus_ said:
DPS/Heal Checks aren't what I would call interesting fights. Of course there's no second solution to a straight up DPS race, that's exactly the kind of poor design I'm talking about. "Remember the time we almost didn't beat the arbitrarily set clock?" doesn't strike me as very interesting.
Of course, at this point I have to point out that the entire concept of threat and aggro management around which MMOs are built isn't really great either, but that's a whole other argument nobody is interested in or has time for.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
:lolTacitus_ said:
Sophistry much?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I have no clue why there isn't an achievement/title for that. It takes probably 30 seconds to program an achievement into the game.ciaossu said:Big grats to Paragon for killing HM LK 25 with no buff, geez
edit: nevermind, I was mixing stuff up
Now I'm just confused. You're wanting both more sophisticated encounters and more distinct classes. How can you get both in the confines of the WoW engine/the MMO gameplay?
And no, DPS checks aren't 'interesting'. They are, however the basis for much of the balance. The designers have admitted to using a Patchwerk style boss to tune tank balance.
And no, DPS checks aren't 'interesting'. They are, however the basis for much of the balance. The designers have admitted to using a Patchwerk style boss to tune tank balance.
I have no real problem with more buffs/debuffs being passed around because they all become crucial to dpsing/healing/tanking, so having them available and easily put up by multiple classes is good. It doesn't change the actual abilities they have except in the cases where those abilities are super old and boring anyway (like sunder armor). and as someone who's played a lot of buff-based classes, having to set up/pass around buffs less is a good thing.
Also there's not much you can do to make an alternative strategy when a specific ability is the key to winning a fight, except bring more of that ability one way or the other, or make exceedingly generic fights where the gimmick is "interrupt this spell" or something else that one person can take care of. In which case it becomes a faceroll for everyone else involved.
Also there's not much you can do to make an alternative strategy when a specific ability is the key to winning a fight, except bring more of that ability one way or the other, or make exceedingly generic fights where the gimmick is "interrupt this spell" or something else that one person can take care of. In which case it becomes a faceroll for everyone else involved.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I dunno, the part I'm really impressed with is the fact that they managed to keep anyone on and raiding at this point.ciaossu said:They probably should add one, but I'm sure the <Paragon> 'title' under their names is more prestigious than any title anyway
Tacitus_ said:
I guess that's kind of my point, that the system WoW uses doesn't have the capacity for more involved gameplay. MMOs in general have gotten prettier and bigger but the mechanics haven't really changed that much. A large part of that is the technology, but the fact that WoW has made a shitload of money has everyone trying to imitate rather than try something new.
Tacitus_ said:
Right, so you essentially have an encounter that serves no purpose beyond giving Blizzard a method to check how their game works. That's useful for the developers, but it's forcing players to collapse their gameplay options to a single output; kill it with fire as fast as possible. It doesn't take utility, strategy or flexibility so it's actually kind of a poor check on whether a group is ready for the content beyond it (especially now that Blizzard has moved away from straight tank and spank encounters anyways).
notworksafe
Member
I think you're just in a shit server/guild, Grimace. My guild manages two 10M raids a week (one normal and one heroic) and most people join one of the 100+ weekly 25 raid PuGs and GDKP runs on our server. I honestly have seen an increase in raiding and group activities since the last patch.
ShallNoiseUpon
Member
notworksafe said:
More like one and a half with some of the people in that normal raid. But, yeah, our server has an obscene amount of activity.
Retro said:
Personally back when I played DPS, beating a gear check match felt good, Brutallus being the prime example. They also serve as a test for the players - are you geared enough to handle the more intricate encounters? Sure beating Brutallus didn't mean you could beat the next boss, Felmyst instantly but it meant that instead of lacking gear, you lacked experience of the encounter so you trained it instead of farming the instance or worse, the previous instances.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
That wasn't what I was saying. I don't even play wow anymore because there isn't anything interesting to do have no idea why anyone would want to do the same shit over and over.notworksafe said:
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
GAF is like 60% threads about games and systems that haven't come out yet.Evlar said:
Do you see very many people talking about Wrath content in here?
Anyway I am torn on what healing spec to do for dual spec on my priest. Disc seems like ezmode and perfect for random instances, but holy looks more fun (partially because I am a fan of renew and instant group heals) although either way I have to get meditation out of disc. So I don't know if I should just go all in on disc or put 14 into disc and then the rest into holy. I'm only 42 on my priest so it's a little ways off (going to dual spec around 60 so I can power through outland/northrend faster) but I'm just wondering what gaf's priest players think. Or in general what people think.
And if it seems odd to be playing a priest but liking the more druid-ish spells, I hate playing tauren and the other thing I like about priests is the shield, but not as a primary thing. Just as a backup/stopgap for actual healing.
And if it seems odd to be playing a priest but liking the more druid-ish spells, I hate playing tauren and the other thing I like about priests is the shield, but not as a primary thing. Just as a backup/stopgap for actual healing.
notworksafe
Member
I would go Holy then. Disc is very much about shields and preventing damage rather than healing it. It's a cool idea, but I found it to be much more boring. 14/57/0 is a good call because you'll need Meditation.
Also Grimace, every page has multiple posts about Wrath content. People are still doing it and having a lot of fun. My guild is working through Heroic ICC and achievements. They are a really neat way to do the old content in a new way and get a pretty sweet reward for it. Heck there are people in the thread that are raiding for the first time. Just because you don't have any fun doesn't mean everyone else is as down in the dumps as you.
Also Grimace, every page has multiple posts about Wrath content. People are still doing it and having a lot of fun. My guild is working through Heroic ICC and achievements. They are a really neat way to do the old content in a new way and get a pretty sweet reward for it. Heck there are people in the thread that are raiding for the first time. Just because you don't have any fun doesn't mean everyone else is as down in the dumps as you.
spootime
Member
The leveling in this game still seems to be a barrier or entry for me. Ive gotten to 30 on multiple characters, but I usually say fuck it around then and quit. Recently I've been playing an instant 80 private server with a friend and doing 2/3s arena, and it's really fun to do. Maybe someday blizzard will offer a service to instantly level you for 20 bucks or something.. Or maybe I just need to try it again. If dungeons and bgs are efficient I might be able to do it
Random dungeons have been really efficient for me in the lower levels. 30 is around the time quest content starts to suck badly, though. Plus I have a 20% exp advantage from heirloom gear, although that's nothing if you can do recruit-a-friend with someone and do random dungeons that way. Just make sure one of you plays (and is good at) a tank so you can instant queue.spootime said:
I think I'll do this then. I can avoid a lot of the crappy holy talents anyway. If there's one tree that looks pretty straightforward to me, it's holy.notworksafe said:
Tacitus_ said:
We'll just have to agree to disagree from here on out, since the bolded part will inevitably lead to a discussion on stat-driven gameplay vs. skill and I don't feel like retreading that argument for the umpteenth time.
I think we can all agree that more involved encounters and a feeling of self-worth (in so far as your class is concerned, at least) are worthwhile goals that continued 'standardization' of the classes will erode. Again, it's not so much this particular case involving buffs/debuffs, but the overall logic that Blizzard seems to be following.
Retro said:
I think you might understand Blizzard's approach better if you turn this statement on its head:
"Raid encounters can be designed assuming x level of mobility on the part of the healer".
Let's talk about Archimonde. If you're not familiar with the fight, it's got one very unusual factor: You collect an item at the start of it which gives you slowfall for a brief period on use. Occasionally you get fired up into the air, and you have to use the slowfall item at the right time to survive the resulting fall.
There is *no way* for the raid to survive it without that item. Blizzard needs to be able to guarantee everyone in the raid has that item to be able to design that encounter; if they could not guarantee it, they could not make that mechanic, and so the fight could not exist.
Another example, let's talk about cleansing. There's four main cleansable debuff types; poison, disease, magic and curse. However, the ability to cleanse those debuffs are spread fairly randomly among the healers. There's a big problem with this, though: in small-scale content (5-mans, at least), this means that *debuffs cannot be lethal*. Blizzard cannot have the mechanic of "You must cleanse this or you will die". Why? Because if a group brings the 'wrong' healer, that encounter becomes impossible for them.
In Cataclysm, this is changing such that every healer can dispel magic; suddenly this game mechanic becomes a new option.
TL;DR: If Blizzard can have a basic feature-set of "Abilities we can guarantee a group has", this gives them *more* scope to create interesting mechanics, not less.
professions are best leveled at a higher level anyway. Nothing better than pulling up a map of herb/mineral spots and just riding by undisturbed by low level mobs. It takes a couple hours instead of being some gradual process you build up while leveling and the only perk that's any good while leveling is the herbalism one anyway.
notworksafe
Member
Seems there are two beta patches dropping soon. One tonight and one next week.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=24702262953&pageNo=30#583
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=24702262953&pageNo=30#583
Alex
Member
I wanted to try out a Shaman, but Shaman seems woefully boring. Not a lot of newness or cool flash (to Resto).
Every expansion I wind up on a Paladin and every expansion I quit that Paladin and do something else after two months. :lol I am sick of this road.
I dont see myself doing Priest again though. I didn't make my Priest to nuke shit, I want to stay alive and heal people. I'm starting to realize I just don't seem to like any of the healing classes in this game lately. Druid is probably the most appealing on paper until I realize I have to play a race I dont like for it and I hate shapeshifting.
Every expansion I wind up on a Paladin and every expansion I quit that Paladin and do something else after two months. :lol I am sick of this road.
I dont see myself doing Priest again though. I didn't make my Priest to nuke shit, I want to stay alive and heal people. I'm starting to realize I just don't seem to like any of the healing classes in this game lately. Druid is probably the most appealing on paper until I realize I have to play a race I dont like for it and I hate shapeshifting.
Resto shamans are getting a few new tools (Healing Rain and Spiritwalkers Grace), which could be badass in the right situations. They did mention bringing back Spirit Link as well, but I haven't seen anything about that in a while....
I'm considering going main heal for once and it might be shaman for Cat. I was considering taking my druid instead, so I could dual spec tank, but resto druid isn't getting anything new for Cataclysm.
I'm considering going main heal for once and it might be shaman for Cat. I was considering taking my druid instead, so I could dual spec tank, but resto druid isn't getting anything new for Cataclysm.
Resto shaman is pretty fun but they more or less "perfected" it in the sense that the shaman community is too beaten down to ask for more stuff, so they aren't going to get more stuff in their healing kit. Still probably going to play shaman/warlock/hunter in cataclysm, maybe replace one of those two dpsers with a warrior if tanking is more fun without the insane gear requirements.Alex said:
Although as cataclysm beta goes on, I find myself less interested in the non-enhance shaman talents. Healing rain seems really cool, but just playing my priest alt I feel like that class has answers to all the healing problems shamans have with none of the drawbacks. Shadow is boring as hell though... I'm just doing it because it's super fast to level.
notworksafe
Member
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/news/2010/july/goblintrike.jpg
Fuck. Yes.
Also a ton of other Beta stuff up at MMO-C
Fuck. Yes.
Also a ton of other Beta stuff up at MMO-C
notworksafe
Member
There's some neat stuff in the interface strings. Seems you have the ability to mark the role of players in raid frames and have them auto-sort by those roles. It'll make healer's lives a little easier I guess.
Maxrpg's (Ramos - US Dalaran) analysis of Beta Patch Paladin Notes)
Holy: Some renames, Speed of Light nerf (10 seconds is get away time!), Improved Lay on Hands was stupid, Word of Glory is sweet, more buffs to that.
Prot: Should be named Seal of Slowyoudown, great Avenger's Shield change (for PVP/PVE), Vindication change seems dumb (Holy Wrath in a prot rotation now?), Devo Aura change cool, Halfdamage buff cool, Righteous Fury yay, Ardent Defender is now an OHSHI- button, Shield of the Templar changes weeeeeeird, especially the Avenging Wrath one. Holy Shield change is AWESOME, Guarded by the Light is AMAZING (it's a shield when you are at max health!), Grand Crusader ok, Hallowed Ground change sounds like helping mana efficiency, though I liked the greater threat from the damage better, Protector Talent is weird, better for offspec into it, Toughness moved up.
Ret: Art of War change BOOOO! Sanctity of Battle makes exorcism BADASS. Seals of Command moved up cuz of Imp Cru Strike. Rule of Law makes Word and Holy Shock sweet. (Is Holy Shock going to be in a Ret Pally's rotation? neat, if true!) Imp Crusader Strike - yay Strikes back at 3 seconds.
Holy: Some renames, Speed of Light nerf (10 seconds is get away time!), Improved Lay on Hands was stupid, Word of Glory is sweet, more buffs to that.
Prot: Should be named Seal of Slowyoudown, great Avenger's Shield change (for PVP/PVE), Vindication change seems dumb (Holy Wrath in a prot rotation now?), Devo Aura change cool, Halfdamage buff cool, Righteous Fury yay, Ardent Defender is now an OHSHI- button, Shield of the Templar changes weeeeeeird, especially the Avenging Wrath one. Holy Shield change is AWESOME, Guarded by the Light is AMAZING (it's a shield when you are at max health!), Grand Crusader ok, Hallowed Ground change sounds like helping mana efficiency, though I liked the greater threat from the damage better, Protector Talent is weird, better for offspec into it, Toughness moved up.
Ret: Art of War change BOOOO! Sanctity of Battle makes exorcism BADASS. Seals of Command moved up cuz of Imp Cru Strike. Rule of Law makes Word and Holy Shock sweet. (Is Holy Shock going to be in a Ret Pally's rotation? neat, if true!) Imp Crusader Strike - yay Strikes back at 3 seconds.
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