AcademicSaucer
Member
from now on Im gonna need something like Zelda, where they had dozens of hours from multiple people for me to believe thats actual gameplay
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WOW OMG: Steam is refunding No Man's Sky even if you played more then 2 hours
- Thread starter Tony Iron Man Stark
- Start date
from now on Im gonna need something like Zelda, where they had dozens of hours from multiple people for me to believe thats actual gameplay
Aceofspades
Banned
They somehow moved away from trailers to actually showing someone playing the games live on stage.
God of War, Days Gone, Horizon and Uncharted all had live stage demos.
Where did I say 'no questions asked'?
Is it not perfectly reasonable to say that if a game stops working properly a couple of weeks after you bought it, and you can show a crash log, your options are
A) wait for a patch
B) ask for a refund.
Sure, option A is reasonable most of the time. But by removing option B, which a customer might prefer after hours of trying to fix it, you're permanently placing the customer at the mercy of developers resolving the issue in a timely fashion, while their window to get a refund If the developer fails to resolve the issue might slip away after thirty days (in some countries/stores or if they bought physical etc).
No reason not to give the customer both options in the case of software not working correctly, no matter how many hours they've played it. Both are equally reasonable but the customer should have the choice.
Mass_Pincup
Banned
It has been 21 days now, how long should he wait to have the game in a playable state (which should've happened right from the start)?
I wouldn't say it's unreasonable, no. At the same time I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for your money back and wait for them to patch the game to a satisfactory standard before giving them money again. Or to just keep your refund if you've been turned off of the product entirely.
It's like having a salt bath.
Except there's no water. It's just dry, rough salt up to the brim and I'm steeped, languishing in it
The term "salt" implies I think all this is unjustified - I don't
IAmAnAgnostic
Member
Unless games begin to be sold with expiration dates, there is zero moral issue with refunding a title that stops working at some point.
Thanks for your input.
Absolutely, complaining (about the product) is fine. Feeling entitled to a refund is fine. I just hope people can keep it civilised.
I want to add that a lot of concerned people are throwing around the word "gamers" in order to reprimand those who are being vitriolic towards the devs and "scamming" their way to a refund. That word gets a lot of flak, and it - often along with the tone of the post - can get a comment shut down. If this is you, and you yourself play games, consider your words more carefully.
And to the ones being reprimanded: you may not like the word "gamer" and believe it represents a group that is not you, but just remember that outside observers will see it differently. They'll see hundreds of "gamers" ganging up on developers like it was their sole mission in life. As a result, they'll once again associate games and the people who play them with hatred, immaturity, insecurity, and downright creepiness.
I'm not saying everyone in this thread falls into one of these two "camps", but just remember what you're fighting, and who your actions and words will affect.
Companies break consumer law and tend to interpret rules to their favour and against the interest of the consumer. Also against the interest of their employees.
Consider the pension mis-selling scandals or PPI, to name a couple of prominent UK examples by larger companies than Valve.
Some areas of the law are not actively enforces, it is up to workers and consumers to challenge corporations to abide by the law.
I personally feel like the marketing of toys in general is an area where companies get away with misleading advertising that wouldn't be allowed in the sale of other things.
The Hamburglar
Banned
if the ombudsman feels the case is worth investigating they do, even if the complaint loses. pretty such any person could easily provide overwhelming evidence too.
Got my refund, 4 hours play time and >14 days since purchase. Had to try twice but Steam accepted it yesterday.
I defended it at the start, but it didn't take long to get tired of it, in some ways I like what is there, but it's not the game that was advertised and it's certainly not £40 worth of content.
I defended it at the start, but it didn't take long to get tired of it, in some ways I like what is there, but it's not the game that was advertised and it's certainly not £40 worth of content.
Agree entirely with this. It's weird how the language that fans of games/books/films use when they feel a product is substandard is so much more personal than that used by people disappointed with stuff like home appliances etc.
I think because the names of the creators are so much more associated with media and become celebrities, heroes or villains to their fans (to comic book proportions looking at memes etc) more easily than Hotpoint's senior development guy on its latest disappointing washing machine. Now there's a refund I deserved*...
*
It managed 20 loads before dying after 28 days and two technician callouts (we have a baby and do a lot of washing).
Agree entirely with this. It's weird how the language that fans of games/books/films use when they feel a product is substandard is so much more personal than that used by people disappointed with stuff like home appliances etc.
I think because the names of the creators are so much more associated with media and become celebrities, heroes or villains to their fans (to comic book proportions looking at memes etc) more easily than Hotpoint's senior development guy on its latest disappointing washing machine. Now there's a refund I deserved*...
*It managed 20 loads before dying after 28 days and two technician callouts (we have a baby and do a lot of washing).
Cult of personality is definitely a thing, but I don't think it's much of a big factor. At least, not for a majority of people.]
It's more likely the fact that games/movies etc are a lot more personal than a washing machine.
misterb2001
Neo Member
now requested a refund for the 3rd time (4 hours play time). I'm not giving up.
Did you get your refund yet? Unless you've experienced loads of crashes/game-stopping bugs, a refund on 17 hours could be considered unjustified.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I played for about 22 hours and got a refund.
It felt effing great.
Next question?
That's not pre rendered though. the NMS 2014 gameplay trailer. is not pre-rendered.
killzone was pre-rendered this isn't. it's all in engine just heavily scripted to give a taste of what they were shooting for.
I'm all for ripping into no man's sky's misleading advertising but let's not misrepresent what that entailed
Bojanglez
The Amiga Brotherhood
Does anyone worry that Steam's liberal refunds policy, whilst being extremely pro-consumer, may cause smaller studios to release their games as console exclusives in the future?
I would like to think that the market will work in this situation and there will be a a balance struck between consumer and developer rights on all platforms, but I think we are a long way from that.
I would like to think that the market will work in this situation and there will be a a balance struck between consumer and developer rights on all platforms, but I think we are a long way from that.
Nothing yet.
I don't really care that much if it comes through anyway, I just thought it was worth a try. Much rather spend that money on a game I will actually enjoy.
If I don't get it I will just have to hope for the best and see if Hello Games manages to turn the game around.
Plus, I don't really care if it's justified or not. I am not happy with my purchase and if presented with an opportunity of getting my money back I will at least try it.
GeNoMe
Member
Honestly what kind of question is that? How do I feel about refunding after xx amount of playtime.
The product in question is a broken fucking mess! And totally not my money's worth. It didn't live up to what was advertised!
The same question can be asked to the ones responsible for producing such a travesty. How do they feel about misleading people into making them think they are getting a moist cupcake, when in reality all you got was a piece of sun dried dogshit.
Not really no. Steam monitors refunds and abusers will be prevented from additional refunds. Additionally, it isn't like a huge population is refunding each game, heck, NMS for Steam which has made refunding quite 'popular' isn't even seeing THAT huge of a turn about.
Woodchipper
Member
Reading Sean's tweets pretty much proves he's a jerk. It's funny how he calls himself "the Susan Boyle of videogames" as well.
Please be sarcasm
No, if anything Sony (in this case) should be forced to give refunds for digital purchases more willingly in the future.Their tactic is to intimidate customers requesting refunds with their company policy (same as Steam) but it doesn't mean shit vs. consumer rights laws in the respective country.
I really do hope that at least in Europe some consumer rights departments such as the Verbraucherschutz in Germany will look into this case if the companies continue to refuse refunds.
Yeah, sometimes common sense prevails in this forum. Not in your post though.
Nuance is beyond you I guess, but what if a game tooked 55 hours to finish by default. Let's say FFVII. Everyone could play it endlessly until disc 3 then as soon as you went to the northern crater, boom, game wont run, saves permanently corrupted.
Would you want a refund, or call everyone who did entitled?
NMS has an express goal: get to the centre of the galaxy. It takes time to get there and because of specific bugs people can not.
I will say again. This thread proves how messed up some view consumer rights. The crazy aggressive posts need to stop, they are taking it way too far.
If some one feels lied to or if some one has a bad gaming experience ( crashes/game not what it should be etc) then they are with in their rights to ask for a refund (it may or may not be granted).
I do not get posters that go on to a thread clearly to annoy another poster. If a person loves the game is it hurting you? If a poster has successfully got a refund is it hurting you? I just don't get people that have to pick a side, then have to defend that side at all cost (even if it means bullying, like we have had in this thread as well). This happens with more then just gaming and for me is pretty sad. It's like some tribal thing that people need to feel they belong to a side and most defend it to the death whenever some one disagrees.
At the end of the day we are all gamers, we all want the same thing. If a game/dev promises something and you don't get it shouldn't they get called out? The more this happens the better gaming will actually be. You really think game companies want to have the game be refunded/slammed time after time? In the end things will change.
Sorry for the essay and sorry if it doesn't make sense here and there (blame the dyslexia)
If some one feels lied to or if some one has a bad gaming experience ( crashes/game not what it should be etc) then they are with in their rights to ask for a refund (it may or may not be granted).
I do not get posters that go on to a thread clearly to annoy another poster. If a person loves the game is it hurting you? If a poster has successfully got a refund is it hurting you? I just don't get people that have to pick a side, then have to defend that side at all cost (even if it means bullying, like we have had in this thread as well). This happens with more then just gaming and for me is pretty sad. It's like some tribal thing that people need to feel they belong to a side and most defend it to the death whenever some one disagrees.
At the end of the day we are all gamers, we all want the same thing. If a game/dev promises something and you don't get it shouldn't they get called out? The more this happens the better gaming will actually be. You really think game companies want to have the game be refunded/slammed time after time? In the end things will change.
Sorry for the essay and sorry if it doesn't make sense here and there (blame the dyslexia)
The individuals who cannot physically finish the game because of bugs are as very small fraction of the user base.
Something that doesn't work properly was sold for full price. The people who bought it deserve a refund regardless of the time they spent in the game. End of story. There is no other way to look at it. Besides, what people are also forgetting is that refunds were not allowed up until now. So, what other option did the people who bought the broken game have? The first two hours might've went fine, but as it's been noted, the game gets progressively buggy as you go further. They just had to suck it up and get whatever they could out of it. Now that refunds are being allowed though, they are completely justified in getting their money back.
Imagine that you bought a brand new bike for full price at a shop. You go ride it and after about 1 mile, the bike starts to get jammed/malfunction. You know that the shop doesn't give refunds after 0.5 miles. So, what you do is you put up with the malfunction because you've already spent so much money on it. You end up riding 20 miles on it by the time the company says they are allowing refunds. Now, what if someone came you and said, "You should be ashamed of getting a refund for that after riding 20 miles!"
No, and it's really not that liberal- all it does it guarantee a refund within two hours of play for any reason, but it offers no guarantees at all regarding any other issue that happens outside of that.
They also specifically say that that customers shouldn't be using that policy to demo or complete games then refund them on a regular basis just because they can- they have the data and can easily crack down on individuals who abuse it. It's there to automate dealing with the odd disappointment for people who buy tons of games, not as a free demo service.
Money 'lost' from refunds on steam is not going to be greater than profits made from releasing a title on steam, even with NMS.
People need to start forwarding this issue to the Verbraucherschutz. The lies aside, the frequent crashes alone for some players are simply unacceptable and a clear reason for a refund. And then there is the false advertising that is still up and running for the game.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
I agree, it's a bizarre question.
If the game starts having crashes at 10 or 30 hours, what does it matter? If the game has a save-wipe bug at 50 hours, I can't get my time back, but I sure as hell better be able to get my money back!
I don't care about the lies. I care about the frequent crashes I'm having. If you look into my post history..I loved the game.
But it's not just Steam giving out refunds, it's nigh on everyone, even Sony themselves.
A great post, no need to apologise.
Jana again? Interesting. My answer was also from Jana.
A difficult thing to account for is what the purchase of a game means, I mean legally, in terms of 'warranty' or use-period. I.e. we can analogise this with a car which works perfectly for three months and then breaks in a key way. But the difference with a car, or a monitor, or an appliance in general, is that they come with warranty. Games don't come with warranty AFAIK (although I guess you can insure them optionally), so it's a bit of a wild west in terms of refunds, with Steam setting their own agenda and Sony setting their own agenda, etc.
Is anything really set in stone? I know in the UK we have the 30-day period for digital goods if something doesn't work, so it's a little clearer over here. It would be great to have a solicitor in this thread comment on it for us.
mickcenary
Member
Jesus.
What the fuck am I hearing re: Killzone 2?
"This is like Killzone 2 levels".
"No, it's beyond that. Killzone 2 actually got close".
This is just astounding to hear. I adore KZ2, but that trailer makes Battlefield 1 look at least one generation old. Look at the animations; it is so blatantly CGI that it's laughable. This gen maybe doing things comparably on some levels, but the overall fidelity and movement is untouched by what's been released and will be released in the coming years. It just doesn't look like a playable video game and frankly, the whole "you should have known better" argument actually holds water with the KZ2 reveal, unlike NMS' bullshittery.
Ravensmash
Member
So Sony and Amazon are giving refunds too?
Jacksinthe
Banned
I don't believe a refund policy will change anything. I do think that some shorter experiences can be abused quite easily with the 2 hour window.
I think a good balance, personally, is to allow most, if not all games a 1 hour window as a demo, for starters, so people can get a taste of the game before they buy to limit refunds.
If games are shorter I would say besting something like Mega Man and wanting to return it afterwards would be a no go unless it had major technical issues.
There's definitely middle ground to be reached that's both fair for consumers and devs, but that can vary wildly from game to game so it will be an imperfect system.
I also think exceptions should be made like with the case of NMS and the often mentioned Skyrim where only knee-deep do severe technical issues become apparent.
I think even if you spend 300 hours on a game to make it to the last boss, stage, area (whatever) and the game breaks down and fails to function there you are still within your rights to refund.
I'd personally like to see more demos so people can judge the game, technical inequities aside. I really wish at least PSN offered full one-hour trials of every game to dip your toes.
One thing is for sure, the industry is still teething. Developers have to learn we can't release games with false promises and technical issues and consumers really need to stop the cult of personality with developers and hand-wave issues.
We make games to sell you, we are not your friends but at the same time we are - a weird statement and colder than it sounds but its true. Most definitely need to have a relationship that revolves around the business side with mutual respect and understanding. The more direct and open we are with each other the fewer issues we will have.
Yeah, fair point.
Verbraucherschutz.
Necromanti
Member
Are refunds authorized by a vendor illegal?
orthodoxy1095
Banned
There may be questions around what "purchasing" a game may mean in terms of a "license" or whatever, but I don't think that's totally relevant. That games don't come with proper warranties and proper refund policies seems to be more of a relic of days when it was easy to copy software, rather than some well thought out policy that's beneficial to the modern market (particularly to the consumer side obviously).
Even when I only "rent" some kind of non-gaming product, I'm pretty sure that I almost always have a right to a refund if the product is defective. So in the case of No Man's Sky, does it matter that it didn't come with a warranty? I can't even remember having this discussion with any other purchase category. My movie ticket doesn't have a real manufacturer's warranty that I know of, but if the movie starts stuttering half-way through the flick, I'm pretty sure I could get my money back easily. If I buy a Dyson vacuum, yeah I guess there's a warranty, and I've never really had a problem refunding a defective appliance. If I buy a eBook from a storefront, I feel pretty confident that if my book was missing pages or started crashing my eReader, I can get my money back. If I buy a paperback, and it was missing pages or the pages were miscut so as to be unreadable, I'm fairly sure I can get a refund. If I order a dinner, and the food is undercooked or missing part of what was advertised, I'm fairly certain I'll be compensated.
The game was (possibly still is) arguably hugely defective. Like I've said in other threads, the game crashed for me more than any other game on PS4. Not just individually, I think it may have crashed more than the rest of my games combined. I felt pretty entitled to a refund. If this were a defective DVD, book, meal, computer, pair of shoes, or practically another other purchasable item, this conversation wouldn't have gone on so long. This whole debate around refunds seems to only come up with video games because of people's unhealthy relationships to developers and games and the disgusting amount of corporate ballwashing that goes on with gaming products.
I don't give a flying shit if they lose money off my refund, that's their goddamn problem.
Devs aren't our friends.
We don't owe them anything.
The shmucks should sell an actually functioning product next time and not lie out of their goddamn asses about what the product entails.
End of discussion.