I'm a dwarf.
WoW: The GAF Exiles
- Thread starter MrAngryFace
- Start date
Drinky Crow
Banned
Frag, any Priest pointers would help. I'm lvl 17 -- not real high -- and focusing on Shadow/Discipline, split about evenly (although I'm planning to go pure Shadow after I put a few points into my Fortitude/Shield boost talents).
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
Mashing said:
wow, what great insight.........minus the first 2 childish sentences...you basically reiterated what I was saying except gloated while doing it. Good post.
by the way...warlocks are considered to be best in 1v1....so you killing a pally should be a given....unless you sucked.
peace
I am a Paly... and yes... Paly's are played by retards. I've only recently surrounded myself with a couple of good ones and we are HELL to any straggling group of hordes... in the high 30s/low 40s (we are 27, 28, and 32).
It is not entirely difficult to beat a Paly in PvP... and it irks the shit out of me with all this bitching about how a Paly needs to be nerfed. Ha. We do no fucking damage and the only hope of us beating someone 1v1 is if you somehow go numb and not wear us down or speed us into oblivion (WHICH SURPRISE NO ONE SEEMS TO GET).
With that said... Stunning a mob or another player is the most satisfying thing ever. I like to imagine the person on the receiving end of a stun go abosolutely insane as he watches my Paly lay some hard hits (around 100+) and then some huge holy dam (around 100+ and then some extra depending on my Judgements).
But, I cannot disagree... most Paly players have no clue what they are doing... once you realize that you are a support class... it become a much better experience all around.
It is not entirely difficult to beat a Paly in PvP... and it irks the shit out of me with all this bitching about how a Paly needs to be nerfed. Ha. We do no fucking damage and the only hope of us beating someone 1v1 is if you somehow go numb and not wear us down or speed us into oblivion (WHICH SURPRISE NO ONE SEEMS TO GET).
With that said... Stunning a mob or another player is the most satisfying thing ever. I like to imagine the person on the receiving end of a stun go abosolutely insane as he watches my Paly lay some hard hits (around 100+) and then some huge holy dam (around 100+ and then some extra depending on my Judgements).
But, I cannot disagree... most Paly players have no clue what they are doing... once you realize that you are a support class... it become a much better experience all around.
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
Apple Jax said:
well said.
i dont know about the whole most paly players have no clue about what they are doing tho cause i have never really grouped with other palys except, like once. Im usually asked to group with others that dont have a paly.
peace
Fragamemnon
Member
Drinky-
Really depends on how much you group versus solo. My priest (43 now) is heavily slanted for solo play, as he's the "when the GF isn't home yet" character (we have a Paladin/Mage duo that we play together, we decided early on that we have our "together" characters and our solo characters).
To that end, Shadow has been very nice for me-the real key early on is Mind Flay, a 3rd-tier shadow talent (10 pts. required) with no prereq. It's a channeled spell that does moderate-but very mana efficient-damage ver the span of 4 seconds, and snares the mob as well by 50%. Basically, for most of my career, I've done the following for pulling while solo.
Mind Blast
Shadow Word: Pain
*back up some while again waiting for global cooldown reset*
Mind Flay (mob will approach snared and you'll do some good, efficient damage
Mind Blast when it comes back up
Melee some
Maybe mind blast again if needed.
This works out very well for me. I also spent the first five points on Spirit Tap, which helps regenerate mana IF I get the killing blow on the mob. Obviously, this isn't helpful if you're frequently grouped with rogues, but if you're solo it really helps reduce the downtime in the earlier levels.
I'm tried doing holy and discipline early on too, and I didn't like it that much. Early on Holy was overkill-I'm an alert healer and can get the job done just fine in the lower-stress duties that the early and midgame require. Later on (50-55 or so) Holy talents will make more sense but they just don't buy you a whole lot in the the early game.
Discipline was a bit better, and I liked it a good bit better than Holy. The upgraded PW:Shield talent is nice, but on the other hand, I prefer to use that ability sparingly, even in groups, because healing damage is much more mana efficient than blocking it with shielding. Shielding is something that I use for casters so they can cast through physical interruption and something I use for "saves" to buy me time for a flash heal, which you will get at level 20 and will become a staple, fast casting (1.5s) heal. I really didn't like the fact early on that dicispline was so lightweight-the first tier especially is not very good, and the second teir and third tier has one really good ability, the improved PW:S (though focused casting is very good later on in the priest's life, I don't consider it a huge deal early on).
I'd say that you should probably start investing in shadow until you can snag Mind Flay. Then go back and get improved PW:S if you're going that route. You'll have two really good abilities that will help in *all* situations (solo and grouped). I'd have something that looked like this if I was grouping more at lower levels:
Shadow
---------
5 Spirit Tap (time a finishing Mind Blast well and you can get this off a lot, even in groups)
3 Blackout (you group with rogues, so Shadow Affinity seems kind of out ot place. They'll be holding aggro pretty easily)
2 Improved Shadow Word Pain (this is a really nice talent-it doesn't look like much, but an extra 6 seconds of ticks is a big difference)
1 Mind Flay (don't be put off by the damage-it is a new spell and you'll train higher versions as you level once you get the talent)
Discipline
----------
Unbreakable Will 5/5
Improved Power Word: Shield 3/3
From there you can go more disicpline for more utility, or more shadow for more damage. Play it by ear depending on how you play and what kind of weaknesses you see in your character.
General Priest tips-
*) Priests get a lot better with flash heal and mind flay. Don't be too put off by your molasses-casting time heals.
*) Spirit gear is not very useful compared to Intellect and Stamina, even for a priest with Spirit Tap. Weigh your purchases and drops you wear accordingly.
*) Crappy water is your friend. It's cheap and better than nothing.
*) It's always more efficient to heal than shield. It's not always practical to heal rather than shield first.
*) Hit Fade as soon as a mob comes for you. It's cheap and makes things cleaner.
*) I highly recommend getting a UI enhancement with some extra quickbars, such as CtMod . I avoid Cosmos because it reminds me of the products your employer makes.
*) Try to keep Inner Fire up if you can remember. Really helps cut down the damage.
*) Renew is a great "first heal" in a fight when grouping. It spreads out the healing over time so that the hate isn't all dumped on your lap, and makes the net rate of damage taken by the melee player less.
*) Priest pulling is ugly. Try to avoid it when grouped.
*) A self Renew and Shield will get you through aggro-packed areas provided they aren't higher-level than you.
*) Train and use staves when you can. I like the extra melee DPS and usually better stats.
Really depends on how much you group versus solo. My priest (43 now) is heavily slanted for solo play, as he's the "when the GF isn't home yet" character (we have a Paladin/Mage duo that we play together, we decided early on that we have our "together" characters and our solo characters).
To that end, Shadow has been very nice for me-the real key early on is Mind Flay, a 3rd-tier shadow talent (10 pts. required) with no prereq. It's a channeled spell that does moderate-but very mana efficient-damage ver the span of 4 seconds, and snares the mob as well by 50%. Basically, for most of my career, I've done the following for pulling while solo.
Mind Blast
Shadow Word: Pain
*back up some while again waiting for global cooldown reset*
Mind Flay (mob will approach snared and you'll do some good, efficient damage
Mind Blast when it comes back up
Melee some
Maybe mind blast again if needed.
This works out very well for me. I also spent the first five points on Spirit Tap, which helps regenerate mana IF I get the killing blow on the mob. Obviously, this isn't helpful if you're frequently grouped with rogues, but if you're solo it really helps reduce the downtime in the earlier levels.
I'm tried doing holy and discipline early on too, and I didn't like it that much. Early on Holy was overkill-I'm an alert healer and can get the job done just fine in the lower-stress duties that the early and midgame require. Later on (50-55 or so) Holy talents will make more sense but they just don't buy you a whole lot in the the early game.
Discipline was a bit better, and I liked it a good bit better than Holy. The upgraded PW:Shield talent is nice, but on the other hand, I prefer to use that ability sparingly, even in groups, because healing damage is much more mana efficient than blocking it with shielding. Shielding is something that I use for casters so they can cast through physical interruption and something I use for "saves" to buy me time for a flash heal, which you will get at level 20 and will become a staple, fast casting (1.5s) heal. I really didn't like the fact early on that dicispline was so lightweight-the first tier especially is not very good, and the second teir and third tier has one really good ability, the improved PW:S (though focused casting is very good later on in the priest's life, I don't consider it a huge deal early on).
I'd say that you should probably start investing in shadow until you can snag Mind Flay. Then go back and get improved PW:S if you're going that route. You'll have two really good abilities that will help in *all* situations (solo and grouped). I'd have something that looked like this if I was grouping more at lower levels:
Shadow
---------
5 Spirit Tap (time a finishing Mind Blast well and you can get this off a lot, even in groups)
3 Blackout (you group with rogues, so Shadow Affinity seems kind of out ot place. They'll be holding aggro pretty easily)
2 Improved Shadow Word Pain (this is a really nice talent-it doesn't look like much, but an extra 6 seconds of ticks is a big difference)
1 Mind Flay (don't be put off by the damage-it is a new spell and you'll train higher versions as you level once you get the talent)
Discipline
----------
Unbreakable Will 5/5
Improved Power Word: Shield 3/3
From there you can go more disicpline for more utility, or more shadow for more damage. Play it by ear depending on how you play and what kind of weaknesses you see in your character.
General Priest tips-
*) Priests get a lot better with flash heal and mind flay. Don't be too put off by your molasses-casting time heals.
*) Spirit gear is not very useful compared to Intellect and Stamina, even for a priest with Spirit Tap. Weigh your purchases and drops you wear accordingly.
*) Crappy water is your friend. It's cheap and better than nothing.
*) It's always more efficient to heal than shield. It's not always practical to heal rather than shield first.
*) Hit Fade as soon as a mob comes for you. It's cheap and makes things cleaner.
*) I highly recommend getting a UI enhancement with some extra quickbars, such as CtMod . I avoid Cosmos because it reminds me of the products your employer makes.
*) Try to keep Inner Fire up if you can remember. Really helps cut down the damage.
*) Renew is a great "first heal" in a fight when grouping. It spreads out the healing over time so that the hate isn't all dumped on your lap, and makes the net rate of damage taken by the melee player less.
*) Priest pulling is ugly. Try to avoid it when grouped.
*) A self Renew and Shield will get you through aggro-packed areas provided they aren't higher-level than you.
*) Train and use staves when you can. I like the extra melee DPS and usually better stats.
Seriously. I got hit on by an Orc in Ashenvale. At first it was kind of funny, we were both doing a quest there so we helped each other out. He flexed, I laughed, we killed things. Then he made a NE character and I guess added me to his friends list because he'd send me tells as soon as I logged on. Haven't heard from him for a while, though. I was on vacation and away from the game for a few days so I guess he gave up or found another NE to stalk.Great Wasabi Man said:
I suppose this is what I get for spamming huntresses on bnet two and a half years ago.
MrAngryFace said:palys are really really strong haha. Best chance id have against one is getting the initial ambush and then interrupting his spells with well timed kicks and just soaking on damage afterwards.
But they hit hard too
Tho there is 50% evade for 15 seconds, that would help a tiny bit ;(
Taking down a paladin as a rogue is hard, especially in a duel (paladin has advantage easily)
In a duel:
1. Stay hidden, try to make them flush you out with consecrate. Uses up their mana.
2. Keep them stunned as much as possible, cheapshot, kidney shot, gouge, whatever.
3. When they pop their immune shield, bandage up and vanish. Then start the whole "find me" game up again.
4. If they ever pull a healing spell without using their invul shield, kick or gouge. Keeping them from casting is easy, unless they have that shield up.
5. Paladins have a stun skill, don't bust out your big timed maneuvers until they use it (blade fury, adrenaline, evasion ect).
6. If you running low on health, blind them then bandage up.
Of course this all changes on what kinda rogue you are. I'm combat, so I just gotta beat them down fast and keep them locked up by stunning, disarming ect.
If you're a dagger rogue you just gotta kill them damn quick. This becomes easier once you get coldblood, preparation, cheapshot ect.
Though anyone saying pallys are overpowered think of this:
1. They have nothing to run, or catch up to an enemy in a fight (unless they are engineers, and that's always a fail chance).
2. They do dick for damage.
Outdoor Miner
Member
FARM REPORT!!!:
I think i've found a decent place to farm for my lvl 40 mount. It's the lvl 36-37 trolls near Zul'Daaina in Stranglethorn Vale or somesuch. After an hour of pure farming i came up with:
46 silk = 1g
2 Voodoo rings = 1.2g (in the AH)
1g in monetary drops from the trolls
5 mageweave = 25s (sell them in Booty Bay to players_
4 pages (for a quest in SV) = between 60-80s for all of 'em (i sell em Booty Bay to players)
60s in crappy non-AH drops (white daggers, etc.)
We're talking nearly 5g in a little over an hour. Not bad. Way better than the hour spent farming in the Arathi Highlands.
I think i've found a decent place to farm for my lvl 40 mount. It's the lvl 36-37 trolls near Zul'Daaina in Stranglethorn Vale or somesuch. After an hour of pure farming i came up with:
46 silk = 1g
2 Voodoo rings = 1.2g (in the AH)
1g in monetary drops from the trolls
5 mageweave = 25s (sell them in Booty Bay to players_
4 pages (for a quest in SV) = between 60-80s for all of 'em (i sell em Booty Bay to players)
60s in crappy non-AH drops (white daggers, etc.)
We're talking nearly 5g in a little over an hour. Not bad. Way better than the hour spent farming in the Arathi Highlands.
Fragamemnon
Member
They aren't that bad if they go 2H, damage-wise. There's not really a class in the game that does really crappy damage. They don't do damage like a rogue, shaman, or even a mage, but they do deal consistent damage and deal it reasonably well.
Fragamemnon
Member
5g/hour is about right for the high 30s. One thing you might want to look into is is coupling your farming with a gathering tradeskill if you have it-e.g., farm beasts if you're a skinner, or do mobs in caves if you're a miner.
Cerebral Palsy
Banned
Fragamemnon said:
keep logic out of this arguement. The lie that Paladins do "dick for damage" is their sole excuse for being as powerful as they are. Don't ruin it for them.
Cerebral Palsy
Banned
Apple Jax said:
Apple Jax said:
So. which is it?
Ferrio said:
Yes... someone with brains
Now I'm not saying I'm the best Paly out there... nor am I the worst either (being lvl28 has its disadvantages)... but I also find it hard to win in PvP... it just takes me awhile.
I have been rethinking about the speccing choice (which is currently in the Retribution tree) and it seems as if I am fighting an uphill battle. Basically... the Retribution tree is supposed to help with the Damage a Paly does (a very BASIC explanation of the tree)... however... recently I've learned that this is NOT on of the Paladin's strengths... so... why not play to A strength i.e. the Holy tree.
Imporved Heal... Flash of Light... Seal of Light... Uninterrupted spells... critical heals... AND... Holy Shock... just seems like the better road to follow (Christ Holy Shock is awesome... 205-250 instant cast GANK machine).
Stay a tad in the Retrib. Tree... keeping two handed mastery, improv. seal of Crusader, and Seal of Command... but the rest into Holy... while depending on your plate armor (at 40... you don't really need to worry about all of this until 40 anyway) for your meatiness.
OF COURSE... this works a lot better if you play steadily with a second Paladin who specs in D (Protection) and Retrib. Wanna see a dynamic duo?! Seriously... you'd be hard pressed to see a better two player combo anywhere in the game.
Because Paly's are a supportive class... have 2 supports together... supporting each other... is quite dangerous... the ability to move in and out of a heal role and into a dam role or a tank role is invaluable. Wish I was playing this game for another 4 and a half months.
Cerebral Palsy
Banned
Apple Jax said:Paly's are not a DPS class.
I never said they were.
Well then look at it this way (and I know you know this)... I may be dealing 100+ dam now (and let's face it... I won't be doing much more later on either)... but I'm doing it at a much lower rate than a DPS class like a Rogue (thus the term DPS... I can can deliver 100+ dam per hit... but at a lower rate than a rogue who may be dealing 90+ per hit, faster).
By stunning... I gain on average... 1.5 extra hits. Simple math show, therefore, that I am able to "catch up" in a DPS type manner. I have gained (lets say for arguments sake) and extra two hits which equates to... 200+ MORE damage in the time that the Rogue did nothing (the rogue would have to either respond with a stun... or... would have to hit me around 4-6 times in order to catch up with the damage I gave him).
The point of the statement (and YES... 100 dam is nothing right now ) was simply to point out how a person is helpless while he watches my Paly wear him down... and... how devastating stun can be if not defended against properly (and this goes for every class with a stun-like option).
-And like always.. a GOOD player of his class will outsmart/beat a bad player. So far... at least on these forums... I have not seen any GLARING problems with misbalanced matches. I think beta really worked well.
By stunning... I gain on average... 1.5 extra hits. Simple math show, therefore, that I am able to "catch up" in a DPS type manner. I have gained (lets say for arguments sake) and extra two hits which equates to... 200+ MORE damage in the time that the Rogue did nothing (the rogue would have to either respond with a stun... or... would have to hit me around 4-6 times in order to catch up with the damage I gave him).
The point of the statement (and YES... 100 dam is nothing right now
) was simply to point out how a person is helpless while he watches my Paly wear him down... and... how devastating stun can be if not defended against properly (and this goes for every class with a stun-like option).-And like always.. a GOOD player of his class will outsmart/beat a bad player. So far... at least on these forums... I have not seen any GLARING problems with misbalanced matches. I think beta really worked well.
Despite not having good dps (which they shouldn't), pally's are pretty good tanks. The only thing warriors really have over noobadins is the ability to put themselves at the top of the hate list (taunt) and an AE mocking blow. A lack of taunt really isn't really an issue except for bosses that wipe aggro (gnomeregan, and probably lots of raids, I think Onyxia wipes aggro), so ok.. maybe that could really suck. Pally's also are pretty sorely gimped at holding aggro when they are silenced. But as far as holding AE and MA aggro, they are pretty good. It's quite possible (I haven't played a pally, this is from info from my brother and others) that pally's mitigate better with thier shield talents compared to a warrior.
PvP Pallys have outstanding staying power, which has always been > *. Tis a shame our shaman is gimp outside of pvp in the 50+ pve game. Blizz should have limited the shaman to one totem (regardless of element) and made it powerful enough to change the shaman's role, similar to a druid. Put out stoneskin, you mitigate like a warrior or pally.. ect.
PvP Pallys have outstanding staying power, which has always been > *. Tis a shame our shaman is gimp outside of pvp in the 50+ pve game. Blizz should have limited the shaman to one totem (regardless of element) and made it powerful enough to change the shaman's role, similar to a druid. Put out stoneskin, you mitigate like a warrior or pally.. ect.
Drinky Crow
Banned
[quote="Fragamemnon']) Priests get a lot better with flash heal and mind flay. Don't be too put off by your molasses-casting time heals.
*) Spirit gear is not very useful compared to Intellect and Stamina, even for a priest with Spirit Tap. Weigh your purchases and drops you wear accordingly.
*) Crappy water is your friend. It's cheap and better than nothing.
*) It's always more efficient to heal than shield. It's not always practical to heal rather than shield first.
*) Hit Fade as soon as a mob comes for you. It's cheap and makes things cleaner.
*) I highly recommend getting a UI enhancement with some extra quickbars, such as CtMod . I avoid Cosmos because it reminds me of the products your employer makes.
*) Try to keep Inner Fire up if you can remember. Really helps cut down the damage.
*) Renew is a great "first heal" in a fight when grouping. It spreads out the healing over time so that the hate isn't all dumped on your lap, and makes the net rate of damage taken by the melee player less.
*) Priest pulling is ugly. Try to avoid it when grouped.
*) A self Renew and Shield will get you through aggro-packed areas provided they aren't higher-level than you.
*) Train and use staves when you can. I like the extra melee DPS and usually better stats.[/quote]
Great advice, Frag ('cept that Cosmos dig -- jerk!). I use Fade and Inner Fire liberally, and I try to keep PW:Fortitude going on everyone in my party during the long hauls, which really pays off for regularly-pulling rogues. I've put a number of points into the talent that reduces the threat of Shadow spells, but you're right: Mind Blast is terrible for pulling in group play -- best to let the rogues do it. Psychic Scream is also a good way to get irritable swarms off me and let Ryan/Tre spank 'em with daggers while I charge up a couple Mind Blasts.
I'd just learned recently yhat I want Intellect, not Spirit, and I blew about 70s rekitting myself accordingly. Ah, 815 mana, I love thee.
I like Shield now because it's instacast, and for a pair of stalker rogues like MAF and Tre, it gives them a chance to do all their nasty Stun/Sap/Ambush attacks without fear. I get yer point about healing, though; I dump Lesser Heal 2 and Heal 1 when the battle really gets to raging. Good point about Renew, though. I've been completely ignoring it as "regeneration = lame", but I'll give it a shot when we raid again.
I'm doing daggers, not staves. Basically, I get Ryan's overpriced hand-me-downs -- saves on money! Maces suck.
WoW is possibly the best game for tactical combat grouping I've played, and that includes the atrocity known as FFXI certain fruits still insist on playing. With a decent team, it isn't at ALL about spamming spells and macros, but about terrain and position and keeping a solid tactical formation. As with all Blizzard games, the spells/skills are so precisely designed and coherently USEFUL that they clearly fit into an overarching attack plan, but are also discrete enough that they can be used effectively in ad hoc situations as well. It's pretty much genius.
*) Spirit gear is not very useful compared to Intellect and Stamina, even for a priest with Spirit Tap. Weigh your purchases and drops you wear accordingly.
*) Crappy water is your friend. It's cheap and better than nothing.
*) It's always more efficient to heal than shield. It's not always practical to heal rather than shield first.
*) Hit Fade as soon as a mob comes for you. It's cheap and makes things cleaner.
*) I highly recommend getting a UI enhancement with some extra quickbars, such as CtMod . I avoid Cosmos because it reminds me of the products your employer makes.
*) Try to keep Inner Fire up if you can remember. Really helps cut down the damage.
*) Renew is a great "first heal" in a fight when grouping. It spreads out the healing over time so that the hate isn't all dumped on your lap, and makes the net rate of damage taken by the melee player less.
*) Priest pulling is ugly. Try to avoid it when grouped.
*) A self Renew and Shield will get you through aggro-packed areas provided they aren't higher-level than you.
*) Train and use staves when you can. I like the extra melee DPS and usually better stats.[/quote]
Great advice, Frag ('cept that Cosmos dig -- jerk!). I use Fade and Inner Fire liberally, and I try to keep PW:Fortitude going on everyone in my party during the long hauls, which really pays off for regularly-pulling rogues. I've put a number of points into the talent that reduces the threat of Shadow spells, but you're right: Mind Blast is terrible for pulling in group play -- best to let the rogues do it. Psychic Scream is also a good way to get irritable swarms off me and let Ryan/Tre spank 'em with daggers while I charge up a couple Mind Blasts.
I'd just learned recently yhat I want Intellect, not Spirit, and I blew about 70s rekitting myself accordingly. Ah, 815 mana, I love thee.
I like Shield now because it's instacast, and for a pair of stalker rogues like MAF and Tre, it gives them a chance to do all their nasty Stun/Sap/Ambush attacks without fear. I get yer point about healing, though; I dump Lesser Heal 2 and Heal 1 when the battle really gets to raging. Good point about Renew, though. I've been completely ignoring it as "regeneration = lame", but I'll give it a shot when we raid again.
I'm doing daggers, not staves.
Basically, I get Ryan's overpriced hand-me-downs -- saves on money! Maces suck.WoW is possibly the best game for tactical combat grouping I've played, and that includes the atrocity known as FFXI certain fruits still insist on playing. With a decent team, it isn't at ALL about spamming spells and macros, but about terrain and position and keeping a solid tactical formation. As with all Blizzard games, the spells/skills are so precisely designed and coherently USEFUL that they clearly fit into an overarching attack plan, but are also discrete enough that they can be used effectively in ad hoc situations as well. It's pretty much genius.
Spirit is the most underated stat in the game imo. Our priest focuses primarily on SPI but still gets plenty of int off the same gear. The problem with int isn't apparent in a typical pull. You have a big pool of mana and just burn it, battle over, med. Where you will run into issues is longer encounters with bosses. It's amazing to me that some healers just don't know how to med, and once they are oom they will just keep casting thier lowest cost heal as fast as they can and hope I stay alive (lol). These healers suck cause oom == death. Our priest kicks ass, he won't heal me till the last minute and heals me full (which makes aggro much easier to manage for me).. then he meds till I am about to die or he is full mana. We haven't run into a situation yet where he can't keep me healed. I'm not saying you have to have spi to med properly, but I'll be damned if I can find any fault with the stat. You just need goobles of it heh.
Fragamemnon
Member
Problem with spirit on priests is, even in longer fights, the five second rule will get to you.
Mana does not regen while casting spells. Even with talents, your longer-casting bread-and-butter heals will stop mana regeneration for 3.5s (cast time) + 5 seconds (rule time). Even with little spirit, you can use tactics to promote mana regen during a long fight, and have a bigger power pool to work with in case there is any difficultlies with the initial parts of the fight (where things can go wrong).
There's a certain comfort level when working with a larger power pool and managing it properly, while still using the slightly less-but still noticable-regen rates as much as you can.
Mana does not regen while casting spells. Even with talents, your longer-casting bread-and-butter heals will stop mana regeneration for 3.5s (cast time) + 5 seconds (rule time). Even with little spirit, you can use tactics to promote mana regen during a long fight, and have a bigger power pool to work with in case there is any difficultlies with the initial parts of the fight (where things can go wrong).
There's a certain comfort level when working with a larger power pool and managing it properly, while still using the slightly less-but still noticable-regen rates as much as you can.
Outdoor Miner
Member
Aye.
My being a mage I certainly go for INT, STA, and make SPI last priority because of that most-loathed change Blizzard made in beta (inability to regen mana while in combat for 5 secs after spell/attack).
For my first 25 levels I went mostly spirit, and the downtime between fights was nearly nonexistent in instances. But having 3100 mana and the ability to summon drinks and drink mana potions won out over having 2100 mana that regens like mad between fights.
That and my insane dependancy on crits forced me to switch.
My being a mage I certainly go for INT, STA, and make SPI last priority because of that most-loathed change Blizzard made in beta (inability to regen mana while in combat for 5 secs after spell/attack).
For my first 25 levels I went mostly spirit, and the downtime between fights was nearly nonexistent in instances. But having 3100 mana and the ability to summon drinks and drink mana potions won out over having 2100 mana that regens like mad between fights.
That and my insane dependancy on crits forced me to switch.
I'd even argue it ought to be a mages main stat too. It prob doesn't matter much now (I don't play a caster), but endgame, you will certainly run oom, making your ability to dish out damage (or heal in the case of a priest) completely dependant on your ability to med as fast as possible since you cant drink in combat. Otherwise, why not just take a rogue that isn't dependant on mana. It will be interesting to see how the dps classes balance out later. Hunters with tons of agi are pretty friggin mean too.
Son of Godzilla
Banned
Because rogues have no aoe?
Drinky Crow
Banned
It's not an ancient Sega arcade racer. Go back to sleep.
MrAngryFace
Banned
tre apparently has a good video of our duels. the me unarmed vs you was hilarious.
Teknopathetic
Member
The only problem is I miss a few seconds of the first duel because I didn't know you challenged him, and a bit of the second one because during it, Doug accidentally caught an aggro'd mob and I fought it off while you guys were duking it out. 
Drinky Crow
Banned
Yeah, but those sort of silly hijinks pretty much sum up our average digital adventure.
MrAngryFace
Banned
Combat is very responsive. What I do in fights totally fucking matters. Its not auto fight, that much is for sure.
Yeah Drinky Crow and I dont take shit very seriously. Duels happen over really dumb shit.
Yeah Drinky Crow and I dont take shit very seriously. Duels happen over really dumb shit.
It takes no skill to play a paladin? Bullshit, you're the ones that don't know how to play. Maybe if you're only talking about low level soloing. But as a paladin in higher levels, often have to be the tank and healer of the group.
Typically you've got to pull, manage hate, and heal at the same time. There are several seals and judgements that have to be used to do things correctly. If you've got another player creating too much hate, you've got to use seal of Fury to keep aggro. If the enemy is doing stun spells you've got to put blessing of Freedom on whoever needs to stay in control. If you're going to be an attacker, you've got to use seal of the crusader, and if you've got someone in your group doing holy damage, you should judge it with the seal of crusader.
Many times it is absolutely critical to the survival of the group that a paladin judges humanoids with seal of Justice to stop enemies from running off near death and aggroing several more guys. Messing up here = instant wipe. No amount "lives" will save you.
Furthermore, paladins have to manage the entires groups blessings. These things wear of every 5 minutes. If you've got a full group with some pets, it becomes tedious and mana hungry. There's blessing of kings, might, wisdom, etc. You've got to keep track of which player needs which blessing.
Paladins should have both a 1H/shield and 2H set, and be ready to change during battle.
There's auras. If you have a paladin that leaves devotion on all the time, he's not doing his job. ShadowResistance is needed often against shadow mages, FireResistance, etc.
Typically you've got to pull, manage hate, and heal at the same time. There are several seals and judgements that have to be used to do things correctly. If you've got another player creating too much hate, you've got to use seal of Fury to keep aggro. If the enemy is doing stun spells you've got to put blessing of Freedom on whoever needs to stay in control. If you're going to be an attacker, you've got to use seal of the crusader, and if you've got someone in your group doing holy damage, you should judge it with the seal of crusader.
Many times it is absolutely critical to the survival of the group that a paladin judges humanoids with seal of Justice to stop enemies from running off near death and aggroing several more guys. Messing up here = instant wipe. No amount "lives" will save you.
Furthermore, paladins have to manage the entires groups blessings. These things wear of every 5 minutes. If you've got a full group with some pets, it becomes tedious and mana hungry. There's blessing of kings, might, wisdom, etc. You've got to keep track of which player needs which blessing.
Paladins should have both a 1H/shield and 2H set, and be ready to change during battle.
There's auras. If you have a paladin that leaves devotion on all the time, he's not doing his job. ShadowResistance is needed often against shadow mages, FireResistance, etc.
Alex
Member
Fer, what kind of talent build are you using? I'm rolling Combat/Assasination, currently for my PvE play, thought I would try that popular Assasination/Subtlety (still using mace or sword, I simply don't care much for dagger builds) build when Battlegrounds (or just end-game in general) roll around.
Teknopathetic
Member
Here we are. I'm hosting these off my own computer so download (for all 2 who care) will be slow.
http://68.46.241.23/Dueling.wmv -- First round is Drinky (Issiannon, 16) and MAF (Phyacia, lvl 18), second round is I (Varindo, 15) and MAF, third round is Me and Drinky, last is MAF with no weapons vs. Drinky.
http://68.46.241.23/KillingStuff.wmv -- as name suggests, us killing mobs. I'd say it would give a decent idea of what goes on to those who've never played WoW.
http://68.46.241.23/Dueling.wmv -- First round is Drinky (Issiannon, 16) and MAF (Phyacia, lvl 18), second round is I (Varindo, 15) and MAF, third round is Me and Drinky, last is MAF with no weapons vs. Drinky.
http://68.46.241.23/KillingStuff.wmv -- as name suggests, us killing mobs. I'd say it would give a decent idea of what goes on to those who've never played WoW.
Fragamemnon
Member
You bring a mage in higher level PvE groups for:
1) Waterboy for the priest.
2) Polymorph.
3) Instant Arcane Explosion.
The mage isn't there for big solid DPS on one target. He's there to burn through the non-elite adds that come with a pull (and there can be tons, hihi lycaeum in BRD), reduce the number of elites on the pull with polymorph, and, lastly, to deal damage/snare the elite mob the group is fighting once the trash mobs from the pull are dead.
Pulls stop being so clean in instances (1-2 elite pulls, etc.) after Scarlet Monastery. Mages make life a whole lot easier.
Rogues are still invaluable because they are the best single-target DPS *BY FAR* in the game and when dealing with 3-4 elite pulls sap'n'sheep (from the mage) makes the first part of a fight a lot easier.
Spirit for mages is useless because they are always casting and thus do not benefit from spirit because of the 5 sec rule-I think you are overestimating the mana costs of spells compared to endgame mana pools and mages have evocation anyway for an in-combat refill during a long fight. Int gives a larger mana pool to work with and increases spell crit rate. INT >>>>>> SPI.
Mages and Warlocks are somewhat interchangeable in a instance group. Soulstones are really nice and are a good tradeoff for free water. The big deal is that the warlock isn't going to be able to CC like a mage will, and the pulls will be tougher. Both can AE pretty well, but the warlock needs a bit more babysitting by the healer than the mage does because of way their AE works. You do gain, on the other hand, some good utility like anti-flee curse, stones, and a bit more survivable caster than a mage. I still prefer mages over warlocks for groups because of the better AE and polymorph, but you won't be gimped with a warlock by any means.
1) Waterboy for the priest.
2) Polymorph.
3) Instant Arcane Explosion.
The mage isn't there for big solid DPS on one target. He's there to burn through the non-elite adds that come with a pull (and there can be tons, hihi lycaeum in BRD), reduce the number of elites on the pull with polymorph, and, lastly, to deal damage/snare the elite mob the group is fighting once the trash mobs from the pull are dead.
Pulls stop being so clean in instances (1-2 elite pulls, etc.) after Scarlet Monastery. Mages make life a whole lot easier.
Rogues are still invaluable because they are the best single-target DPS *BY FAR* in the game and when dealing with 3-4 elite pulls sap'n'sheep (from the mage) makes the first part of a fight a lot easier.
Spirit for mages is useless because they are always casting and thus do not benefit from spirit because of the 5 sec rule-I think you are overestimating the mana costs of spells compared to endgame mana pools and mages have evocation anyway for an in-combat refill during a long fight. Int gives a larger mana pool to work with and increases spell crit rate. INT >>>>>> SPI.
Mages and Warlocks are somewhat interchangeable in a instance group. Soulstones are really nice and are a good tradeoff for free water. The big deal is that the warlock isn't going to be able to CC like a mage will, and the pulls will be tougher. Both can AE pretty well, but the warlock needs a bit more babysitting by the healer than the mage does because of way their AE works. You do gain, on the other hand, some good utility like anti-flee curse, stones, and a bit more survivable caster than a mage. I still prefer mages over warlocks for groups because of the better AE and polymorph, but you won't be gimped with a warlock by any means.
MrAngryFace
Banned
Any clue where to get kelp anywhere other than under the sea, making mana potions is a fucking chore.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Man, the 10+ goblin/human bumrush in the Boulderwhatever Mine last night was hilarious.
So anyway, I DIE. It was a largely circumstantial death; we pulled a few too many mobs while I was low on mana, and the three of 'em decided to concentrate on me while MAF/Tre tried to taunt to no avail -- I was getting bum rolls all night, anyhow, so no shock there. Guess me making fun of Tauren dudes in the auction house hurt my Blizzard rand() karma.
"wait by my corpse" I say spryly as I begin the tedious-ass trek from The Crossroads to the Mine. Two cups of coffee and several funny MAF chat skits later, I arrive at my corpse and inform my stealthy team pals that they need to clear the area around it. I see a pair of gobs keel over. I 360 with my ghost and all seems clear. "Go ahead" shouts TEAM ROGUE in unison and so I res.
BOOM. Either respawn just hit or returning to your corpse throws up some crazy aggro effect, because goblins, dwarves, and humans just POURED out of the caves. I had no potions, no health, and no mana, so I threw up as many Shield + Renew combos as I could, and MAF/Tre kept their cool, but we finally fell under the tumult of really pissed off Venture Company employees. "Fuck you capitalist schweinhunds!" shrieked MAF as the little poly people swarmed over him. I swear, we killed at LEAST four, but there were 2 or more of them still on each of us after our bodies hit the ground.
We paid the Spirit Healer after that. Bye bye 7 silver.
So anyway, I DIE. It was a largely circumstantial death; we pulled a few too many mobs while I was low on mana, and the three of 'em decided to concentrate on me while MAF/Tre tried to taunt to no avail -- I was getting bum rolls all night, anyhow, so no shock there. Guess me making fun of Tauren dudes in the auction house hurt my Blizzard rand() karma.
"wait by my corpse" I say spryly as I begin the tedious-ass trek from The Crossroads to the Mine. Two cups of coffee and several funny MAF chat skits later, I arrive at my corpse and inform my stealthy team pals that they need to clear the area around it. I see a pair of gobs keel over. I 360 with my ghost and all seems clear. "Go ahead" shouts TEAM ROGUE in unison and so I res.
BOOM. Either respawn just hit or returning to your corpse throws up some crazy aggro effect, because goblins, dwarves, and humans just POURED out of the caves. I had no potions, no health, and no mana, so I threw up as many Shield + Renew combos as I could, and MAF/Tre kept their cool, but we finally fell under the tumult of really pissed off Venture Company employees. "Fuck you capitalist schweinhunds!" shrieked MAF as the little poly people swarmed over him. I swear, we killed at LEAST four, but there were 2 or more of them still on each of us after our bodies hit the ground.
We paid the Spirit Healer after that.
Bye bye 7 silver. 
Fixed2BeBroken
Member
akascream said:
but....doesnt that mean that it doesnt take skill to play as paly well? being that "any retard can solo a pally very easily and has an advantage in pvp"
peace