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Writing-GAF: Writing, Publishing, Selling |OT|

Ashes

Banned
I'm averaging 200 words and above five days running. I wrote 1800 words on Sept 4. Cause ... reasons.

It has thus far been more like a diary than anything else.

edit: And I'm writing everyday at around 8pm. As I figured out that seems to be the one hour of the day that most consistently fulfils the following rules:
a, I'm awake
b, at home
c, not busy
 
draft1complete_zpssv9yj6yi.png


Draft one complete. Was mostly a pain in the ass, but when I did my pre-editing, I found that I was pretty happy with how the first fifty pages turned out. So, I'm dubbing it fixable.

In total, it took 104 days from start to finish.
 
draft1complete_zpssv9yj6yi.png


Draft one complete. Was mostly a pain in the ass, but when I did my pre-editing, I found that I was pretty happy with how the first fifty pages turned out. So, I'm dubbing it fixable.

In total, it took 104 days from start to finish.

Congrats! I wish I could just sit down and pound out my current book. I'm probably about 30k into what I expect will be a 70k-ish book, but I just can't seem to dedicate myself to the creative act when I should be.

I spend too much time on GAF. And working. Christ, if I could just win the damn Powerball I'd have plenty of time to write!
 

Ashes

Banned
Here's some dumb shit that took me 53 minutes to write.

I've been looking at a Nano novel I wrote a while back. And was trying to render an impression of the novel to come without actual plot revelations but incorporating the most fundamental aspects of the novel. Those being:

a, experimental literary formats,
b, brevity
c, multi universes


- 3.

Imagine. That other universes exist.


- 2.

In this universe chapters are negative numbers. That work up to zero.


- 1.

So what happens before the story starts?


Chapter 0. Prologue.

Nothing. Apparently.


Chapter 1.

[novel starts from here]

go figure. :/
 

sirap

Member
draft1complete_zpssv9yj6yi.png


Draft one complete. Was mostly a pain in the ass, but when I did my pre-editing, I found that I was pretty happy with how the first fifty pages turned out. So, I'm dubbing it fixable.

In total, it took 104 days from start to finish.

Fuck, I salute you for tackling that in Word! Congratulations!
 
Nothing really, it is what I use.

But at 50k+ words it really starts to struggle.
My first novel was about 150k words on first draft and I was using Word 2003 or something. That was a bit of a problem. Took forever to open the document and spellcheck stopped working around page 60. But I'm using I think 2007 and it handled this document without any issues. Little slow to open sometimes, but that's alright.
 
That surreal feeling when a book reviewer gets back to you almost half a year after you sent them your work...

Popped into email a few minutes after the stroke of midnight made it my birthday too. Wahey. Feels nice now, but it sure would have softened the bummer of getting (or not getting) a multitude of non-responses way back when they were first sent. ^_^



The weird thing it, though its sort of a rewrite of the my first novel, it's all going to be new material, and that's why I was wondering whether or not I should maybe try to redo it. It's a weird situation, but I'll try to explain it. Think of my novel as having two halfs, pre and post timeskip. For last year, the only stuff I managed to write was in the pre timeskip part, which is very different from the post timeskip part, and didn't managed to even touch any of the material that will be in the second half. Since the stuff I'll be writing for this year's NaNo is exclusively in the post timeskip part, a.k.a. ideas I never even tried putting to paper last year, that's where the ambiguity of whether I should try it comes in. If it was just "rewrite events I already did, but this time, better", I wouldn't do it, since I'd never get anything done that way, but since it's new, I'm unsure.

New material, I suppose, but I still feel that fresher is better and the post time skip stuff would be better handled later. With all the previous work still heavy on the mind, I feel like it'd slow the process because you'd already expended so much energy on the same subject already. But, that's just me. If you have a plan of attack and you're rarin' to go on the post time skip, go for it. NaNo is just about getting the words down in the end, so if completing the book is what inspires you, go nuts.

Ha, after all that shit I talked about not needing to cut stuff, I just wrapped up a 6000-plus word chapter on my novel in progress that's going to need to be heavily cut down in a future draft. :p

Get it down to 600 and I'll be impressed. :)
 

Ashes

Banned
The thing about writing books over long periods of time is everything appears to have had a great deal of thought when actually it's a five minute burst of inspiration in the shower.
Five years it took for me to unstick a sticky issue in the first chapter of a novel I started writing ten years ago.
 

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
Just out of curiosity, could it be worth pitching a novel written directly in English if the writer isn't a native speaker? I mean, I know this sounds ludicrous, but the market for (hard-ish) science fiction is already small as it is and the market in my native language is laughable. I've also never seen a Dutch sf-book in any book store, ever. English, yes. But not in Dutch. Translated (poorly) from English is also rare, unless it's a franchise.
I would be content with self-publishing, but having access to vital resources (editor, cover design, etc) saves an incredible amount of time, and a lot of figuring out how to invent the wheel. There is also the risk of becoming limited to 'the indy boonies' by self-publishing, too.
Won't know till you try, yada yada yada. That said, I do think it's worth a shot. You present it like a con, but it could also be a plus. Haven't read your thing, but a Dutch SF story already sounds more interesting than most things. I guess it all comes down to how much of your culture you put in the novel, how Dutch is it? The more so, means the more different it is from most things in the market.

Draft one complete. Was mostly a pain in the ass, but when I did my pre-editing, I found that I was pretty happy with how the first fifty pages turned out. So, I'm dubbing it fixable.

In total, it took 104 days from start to finish.

Ah man, looking at that word tally has totally inspired me to finish my nano from last year. Gonna try and get it done before this one comes up. Also congrats. I'm always jealous of you guys and how you finish such long projects.

The thing about writing books over long periods of time is everything appears to have had a great deal of thought when actually it's a five minute burst of inspiration in the shower.
Five years it took for me to unstick a sticky issue in the first chapter of a novel I started writing ten years ago.

Ah man, i wish I had the time and patience to write something over multiple years. I just finished Catch 22, and the idea of Heller working 7 years on it amazes me.
 

FlowersisBritish

fleurs n'est pas britannique
I chalk it up to being stupid and stubborn :p

Good luck on your NaNo!

Thanks. I'm going through a mix of my notes and what I had written. I'm actually kinda super impressed with it. There is a certain amount of quality in it that I keep gushing over, especially as I go through all the big scenes. My excitement is through the roof on finishing it now.
 

Woorloog

Banned
Cyan's excerpt made me think: Is there functional difference between "[character] said" and "said [character]"?
Or is it just a preference thing?

(My ear says "[character] said" sounds better, though there are times when "said [character]" seems better but that's rare.)
 

Woorloog

Banned
I see.
And thinking about this, i realize there's no rule for this in Finnish either, "[X] sanoi" and "sanoi [X]" are both used... I think. It's been ages since i read anything in Finnish that wasn't news, or wrote more than one or two words in Finnish...

Example of an action tag being that "Amanda snorted. [line]", no?
 

Woorloog

Banned
Like I said, it makes more sense in the story. ;)

"Golem" might change in the next draft, but I'm sticking with it for now just for consistency. It doesn't have quite the right flavor, but I'm not sure there's a better word for humanoid stone statues brought to life by magic.

Homunculus? Provided your golems do look humanoid, otherwise it is a tad odd word. Modifiable though, i think The Elder Scrolls used "animunculi" for dwemer magic-robots.
 
GAF,

I've always liked writing, but the only thing I have ever completed was a 200 page script for a game a friend and I are making.

A lot of times I just feel... I dunno, like I don't have anything worthwhile to say or tell. I generally like to write stories I personally would want to read, but most of the time that stuff is pretty derivative at best and sloppy at worst. I've always wanted to try my hand at poetry, but lack the structure or style.

I dunno. I don't particularly feel inspired lately, which is upsetting.
 
I have a lot of trouble opening and saving larger documents (It'll start to lock them and do other funny things). Could just be one of those things.

Happy birthday!

Thank ya! :D


GAF,

I've always liked writing, but the only thing I have ever completed was a 200 page script for a game a friend and I are making.

A lot of times I just feel... I dunno, like I don't have anything worthwhile to say or tell. I generally like to write stories I personally would want to read, but most of the time that stuff is pretty derivative at best and sloppy at worst. I've always wanted to try my hand at poetry, but lack the structure or style.

I dunno. I don't particularly feel inspired lately, which is upsetting.

Sounds like you need to be inspired. Maybe hit up a writing seminar, or do something you've never done in your life (camping under the stars, food tasting, volunteering at a shelter, etc.), or go all Walden Pond and seclude yourself until the creative kettle boils over?
 

aidan

Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
Had an interesting review of my book pop up today. It specifically focuses on the sample available through booksellers (the first 10%, I think).

I’ve only read A Dribble of Ink on a couple of occasions, each time being impressed by the writing, but these were essays or articles, not fiction, and included other contributors than Moher himself. Here I’m a little sad to say that I found the writing a bit florid, delivering a functional if pedestrian text while repeatedly resorting to lyric flourishes of the rosy-fingered dawn sort. Not bad, but far from outstanding by any means, and the cover quote I see on Amazon (“Delightful!” says Brian Staveley, author of The Emperor’s Blades, so I think I’ll do him next) seems generous in my opinion.
...

Writers and editors can be different entities, but they can inhabit the same one body as well. The grim, sometime truth is that writers who edit themselves often… don’t, at least not as effectively as they might do the work of someone else. In this case, these are stories the author admits have lived long in his proverbial trunk, those that kept pulling at his attention down the years… yet not stories that were picked up elsewhere. Perhaps that is a telling fact.

...

Tide of Shadows seems a workmanlike effort, not a must-buy, but something I would pick up and give over an afternoon to if it caught my eye on discount day.

For those interested, you can read the whole thing here: https://thesamplereader.wordpress.com/2015/09/14/tide-of-shadows/

Certainly brought to light some issues that I could potentially address re: the sample, including adding an excerpt from one of the later stories at the front of the book, adding review blurbs, etc. Also, starting a collection of stories with (what I consider) the weakest story might not be a great idea. The reviewer makes a lot of broad generalizations about my writing based on a small portion of the book, which is very similar behaviour to that of potential buyers checking out the sample.

Lots to think about, certainly.
 
Had an interesting review of my book pop up today. It specifically focuses on the sample available through booksellers (the first 10%, I think).



For those interested, you can read the whole thing here: https://thesamplereader.wordpress.com/2015/09/14/tide-of-shadows/

Certainly brought to light some issues that I could potentially address re: the sample, including adding an excerpt from one of the later stories at the front of the book, adding review blurbs, etc. Also, starting a collection of stories with (what I consider) the weakest story might not be a great idea. The reviewer makes a lot of broad generalizations about my writing based on a small portion of the book, which is very similar behaviour to that of potential buyers checking out the sample.

Lots to think about, certainly.
An excerpt from a later story might not be a bad idea at all, though your style/tone change so much that it's hard for me to pick which one you should go with. More review blurbs ain't a bad idea at all though!

And for what it's worth, I really dug your first story. Like, a lot.

Ya can't please everyone, but also fuck that guy for reading a sample and then reviewing based off of your essay and probably the first six pages.
 
Had an interesting review of my book pop up today. It specifically focuses on the sample available through booksellers (the first 10%, I think).



For those interested, you can read the whole thing here: https://thesamplereader.wordpress.com/2015/09/14/tide-of-shadows/

Certainly brought to light some issues that I could potentially address re: the sample, including adding an excerpt from one of the later stories at the front of the book, adding review blurbs, etc. Also, starting a collection of stories with (what I consider) the weakest story might not be a great idea. The reviewer makes a lot of broad generalizations about my writing based on a small portion of the book, which is very similar behaviour to that of potential buyers checking out the sample.

Lots to think about, certainly.

It does highlight stuff to think about in terms of what shows first to buyers and how to better present stronger blurbs up front, but I still think it's a bit unfair to post a review-esque critique with just that small excerpt. Might be worth sending him a full copy for a follow-up proper review to see if his thoughts change on the book. It might be seen a defensive gesture, though. :/
 
I'm thinking of sending my book to TOR, or at least, the first three chapters per their submission guidelines. The thing is, i've never read a book published by them I like, so that means if they reject me, I'm worse than the worst and oh god ._.

I keep looking at them (and Baen, if I'm being honest) as the two bastions of hope I have, because they'll publish anything! So a rejection from them would really hurt, despite it being like, 99% going to happen.

Guys, I've had so many rejections now that it's really kinda weighing me down. I'm halfway through this last database without even a nibble, and the last few letters I've gone through have mostly been repeats from other databases.

The TL/DR being "hope, where art thou?"
 
I don't think that really makes sense. If you don't like anything published by Tor, they're probably not a fit for you. So if they reject you, it means... they aren't a good fit for you. :p
Well, given some of their fantasy novels I've read, I think mine fits into their business model, at least somewhat. They've put out a novella with talking animal people recently, so now that isn't working against me either. Or it is in that they don't want to publish more than one talking animal people story.

I probably AM looking at this from a completely stupid, paranoid perspective though.
 

Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
I have a quick question about real world references being used in a book.

Basically, how does Ernest Cline get away with everything in Ready Player One? Did he have to pay money? What are the rules I must follow when referencing outside media?
 

aidan

Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
An excerpt from a later story might not be a bad idea at all, though your style/tone change so much that it's hard for me to pick which one you should go with. More review blurbs ain't a bad idea at all though!

And for what it's worth, I really dug your first story. Like, a lot.

Ya can't please everyone, but also fuck that guy for reading a sample and then reviewing based off of your essay and probably the first six pages.

It does highlight stuff to think about in terms of what shows first to buyers and how to better present stronger blurbs up front, but I still think it's a bit unfair to post a review-esque critique with just that small excerpt. Might be worth sending him a full copy for a follow-up proper review to see if his thoughts change on the book. It might be seen a defensive gesture, though. :/

Yeah, I thought the whole thing was a little weird and disingenuous, based on some of the sweeping statements he made about the book after having read a small part of it. But, the more I thought about it, this is a very real, very common way for people to decide whether or not to buy a book--whether it's the sample online, or just picking it up in the bookstore and leafing through the beginning. I'm definitely using it as an opportunity to think about my work from the perspective of a reader demographic that I haven't been a part of for years.

I'm thinking of sending my book to TOR, or at least, the first three chapters per their submission guidelines. The thing is, i've never read a book published by them I like, so that means if they reject me, I'm worse than the worst and oh god ._.

Man. I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion about Tor, who I consider to be the preeminent SFF publisher of the last 40 years. They've published:

  • Ursula K. Le Guin
  • Gene Wolfe
  • Elizabeth Bear
  • James Tiptree Jr.
  • Robert Silverberg
  • Max Gladstone
  • Phillip K. Dick
  • Leigh Brackett
  • Fritz Leiber
  • Samuel R. Delany
  • Joan Vinge
  • Steven Brust
  • Brandon Sanderson
  • Sarah Monette/Katherine Addison
  • Steven Erikson
  • Andre Norton
  • Maureen McHugh
  • Jack Vance
  • Kim Stanley Robinson
  • and so many other wonderful writers.

And they're the worst of the worst?
 
Man. I'm not sure how you've come to that conclusion about Tor, who I consider to be the preeminent SFF publisher of the last 40 years. They've published:

  • Ursula K. Le Guin
  • Gene Wolfe
  • Elizabeth Bear
  • James Tiptree Jr.
  • Robert Silverberg
  • Max Gladstone
  • Phillip K. Dick
  • Leigh Brackett
  • Fritz Leiber
  • Samuel R. Delany
  • Joan Vinge
  • Steven Brust
  • Brandon Sanderson
  • Sarah Monette/Katherine Addison
  • Steven Erikson
  • Andre Norton
  • Maureen McHugh
  • Jack Vance
  • Kim Stanley Robinson
  • and so many other wonderful writers.

And they're the worst of the worst?
Haven't read any of those authors. Haven't heard of most :p
 
bro wat r u doing
It's hard to know where to start with fantasy books because there are so many and so many are terrible! Plus, every one of them wants to be a long-running series, and gawd I don't have time.

The second answer to your question is: failing miserably :[

Aidan said:
Well, then, I'm incredibly envious of you. There's a lot of terrific reading ahead of you.
Where should I start >.<
 

aidan

Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor

aidan

Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
A really interesting look at raw sales data from Kameron Hurley:

I want to talk about the reality of being a debut author, because nobody actually talked to me about those numbers. What defined success? What should I expect? Was I a failure if I sold fewer than 80,000 copies? Fewer than 20,000? I know selling 100 is bad, but outside that….?

The average book sells 3000 copies in its lifetime (Publishers Weekly, 2006).

Yes. It’s not missing a zero.

Take a breath and read that again.

But wait, there’s more!

The average traditionally published book which sells 3,000 in its entire lifetime in print only sells about 250-300 copies its first year.

But I’m going indie! you say. My odds are better!

No, grasshopper. Your odds are worse.

The average digital only author-published book sells 250 copies in its lifetime.

It’s not missing a zero.
 

Kameron Hurley said:
The average digital only author-published book sells 250 copies in its lifetime.

It’s not missing a zero.

Kameron Hurley said:
There are authors – authors you may have heard of – who have sold a couple hundred copies of a title in its lifetime. I’ve seen publisher spreadsheets that show some authors selling just a dozen copies over eight months. I remember one author had sold four copies in twelve months and I thought for sure it was a typo but it wasn’t.

ib0BVIPjpjHTY.gif


I'm happy with the stats for my newest book.
 
Good god that was depressing. :[ Not that surprising in a way, because corporate money and business and consumer TPS reports, but still depressing.

Also explains, in a roundabout way, why agents are so damn picky. I have to be around 100 rejections at this point. Probably not quite there, but getting close.

Actaully, this brings to mind a question: When you submit to publishers (and some agents), they ask you what your marketing strategy is? I've ignored all of those for now because I have no idea how to answer that question. If I was a marketing wiz, I'd self publish and make bank because marketing wiz. But I'm not. Best I can think of is targeted ads on websites and maybe I dunno, appearing on podcasts when possible.
 

Soulfire

Member
Actaully, this brings to mind a question: When you submit to publishers (and some agents), they ask you what your marketing strategy is? I've ignored all of those for now because I have no idea how to answer that question. If I was a marketing wiz, I'd self publish and make bank because marketing wiz. But I'm not. Best I can think of is targeted ads on websites and maybe I dunno, appearing on podcasts when possible.
I got an ARC copy of a Jen Lancaster novel and it had her marketing strategy listed on it. She's a NY Times bestseller so it had stuff that the midlist writer wouldn't necessarily do.
Her marketing campaign was:
National television appearances and radio interviews
10 city book tour
print reviews and features
blog tour
national advertising
social media promotion
summer reading groups
Goodreads/Net Galley give aways
Promos on her social media and website

Honestly I don't know how helpful most of that is for someone just starting out, you need to already have a platform for a lot of it to help. For self-publishers most people say the best way to market is to write and publish more books.
 
I got an ARC copy of a Jen Lancaster novel and it had her marketing strategy listed on it. She's a NY Times bestseller so it had stuff that the midlist writer wouldn't necessarily do.
Her marketing campaign was:
National television appearances and radio interviews
10 city book tour
print reviews and features
blog tour
national advertising
social media promotion
summer reading groups
Goodreads/Net Galley give aways
Promos on her social media and website

Honestly I don't know how helpful most of that is for someone just starting out, you need to already have a platform for a lot of it to help. For self-publishers most people say the best way to market is to write and publish more books.
Yeah. LIke, you can't just will a television campaign into existence :p It's why podcasting might work better, since midrange podcasts can be open to skype interviews. Plus, those are more freeform conversations.

The blog tour is interesting, and I keep forgetting sites like Goodreads exist. Social media promotion is only as good as your platform, of which mine consists of maybe 80 people but they're following me for my video game and not my writing.
 

That's actually slightly better than I thought the average self-published book would do. I know many non-GAF self-published authors who would be over the moon to hit even double digits at this rate. It's just an incredibly hard market to grab eyes in.

Anyway, I find it interesting but not discouraging in the slightest. I suppose if you go in hard trying to make money it can be a bit of a dampener, but the novelty of even being paid anything for my work is still pretty fresh. Doesn't mean I won't keep pushing to beat those stats, though. ^_^ I enjoy the marketing part anyway, after all.


Yeah. LIke, you can't just will a television campaign into existence :p It's why podcasting might work better, since midrange podcasts can be open to skype interviews. Plus, those are more freeform conversations.

The blog tour is interesting, and I keep forgetting sites like Goodreads exist. Social media promotion is only as good as your platform, of which mine consists of maybe 80 people but they're following me for my video game and not my writing.

A lot of review bloggers also do author promos/tours on their pages at no charge. Obviously, their reach isn't that of GoodReads, but many still have pretty decent followings.

Oh! On the TV thing, I have been seeing a weird number of book commercials in the wee hours. They're barely what you'd call professional grade or anything, but there they are. Might be worth looking into even if it seems unattainable just because it's on TV.
 
First round of editing on the third novel is complete! Been away from "serious" writing for a while, but I'm actually starting to get hyped up about it again, especially after every beta reader I've talked to absolutely told me how much they loved the story. Hope I can write something this allegedly good again, which I'm pretty worried about after such a long break.


By the way, has this ever been done before? A story (in any medium really) that's advertised as a prequel, but turns out to be a sequel, the reveal of which acts as one of the big twists.
 

Ashes

Banned
Missed my goal of writing a couple of hundred words a day in September for a few days. Carried on tonight.

I am hopelessly bad about writing myself in autobiographical form. So this is actually good practise.

22 sept.
[roughly five hundred words]

What I will try do today is to not fall into my lazy habit of writing whatever is on my mind, but treat the piece like I would any given story.

Put simply, Given topic A; write meditation Z.*

That's not to say you moralise the story; if I include morals in a story, it'd be to demonstrate that I'm interested in character 1's moral outlook. For example, how they break down their worldview, and how they go about addressing crisis 1,2,3.

Which led me to the following question: do I write agreeable characters so as to make the reader agreeable - or a better word 'malleable' - writing challenge week secondary bonus point! - with the argument presented?

Alternatively, do I write disagreeable characters so as to show a disagreeable outlook, so the reader agrees on a holistic scale to the argument presented in the book?

I think the instinct to 'be in the right' is natural and correlates to the human condition. e.g. being on the right side of arguments or right group.

So to bring all the above together, when asked in that very specific light, I tend to think that I do want people to agree with what the story is saying, and in turn agree with myself.

Except... when you ask straight up... I don't altogether care about stories being on the right side of an argument. I don't frame things like that. I try to write about 'realistic' beings. 9/10 times I'm placing them [ the characters] as they are. I sincerely believe that it's nonsensical to presume that if you show character A strangling a cat, the audience should presume to hate what character A stands for, and hate that too. E.g. left leaning party man strangles a cat, doesn't mean left leaning people are psychopaths. Though I suppose some people are more able to reason well than others. And my former statement doesn't account for that.

More often than not, the best outcome [that being the outcome I'd most like], given any story where the above is true [Given topic A; write meditation Z], the absolute best result, for me, is when the reader found the piece
a. didn't waste their time
or
b. enjoyed it.

The second best result is:
a. so this happened; given the topic, what do you think now?
[and I know it's ironic, but if a story makes you put the text down and pause for thought [in a positive way!] then they've really done well in engaging the reader to the highest degree.]
or
b. Goes back to the story at another point in time for a second reading. Whether that's to recapture what it made them feel in the first instance or to give the story a second pass.

I've just written what's on my mind haven't I? I'll write a story tomorrow.

*Yes, I'm more of a plotter, but the preceding statement works just as well for those who are good at writing [thinking!] on their feet... so to speak.

ps. Who am I talking to? I guess noone in particular is as good answer as any.
Pps. Who am I kidding, I'm talking to myself. A future self. A self nonetheless. This is what is going on inside my brain at nine pm on the night of the 22nd of September 2015.
 

Soulfire

Member
I just realized I have no idea what a "blog tour" is. Care to explain anyone?
It's virtual book tour. There are companies that are partnered with book bloggers that you can contact and pay to set one up, or you can just reach out to bloggers and ask to make a guest blog post. Chuck Wendig posts a lot of them on his blog if you want to see what they're like, his are normally five things I learned while writing my book that's about to come out by guest author.

Sometimes the blogger has specific questions they want you to answer either about the book or yourself. Sometimes you just talk about your book. Sometimes they just review your book.
 
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