Support NeoGAF

[Succinct Verbosity]

I think hate just been on the rise in general globally. Still the examples given are disturbing

I think poverty has a large part to do with it. For example, UKIP may be on the rise, but I've also noticed some of their more casual supporters begrudgingly moving back to the mainstream party as the economy continues to recover. France, on the other hand, is in a terrible economic condition right now.

 

[Huw_Dawson]

An early poster who highlighted a duality in the situation is correct. There is both an undercurrent of broad anti-semitic feeling amongst some in society mostly due to seeing Jewish people as 'others', and the whole Israel-Palestine conflict being as it is.

These are tense times. Tension brings on societal conflict.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

In the Middle East it will. There was not antisemitism in the ME prior to the existence of Israel. The hatred became much stronger because of Israeli policies. If a fair peace between Palestinians and Israelis happen tomorrow, then hatred towards the Jews, will be much, much less in the ME. In Europe that´s another story, because there was always discrimination against the Jews.

I'm calling bullshit. There were large Jewish populations in the ME, sure, but I doubt there was literally no anti-semitism prior to 1947.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I see antisemitism on the rise in germany mainly due to disagreements with israels gaza policies.
its weird since usually these debates are kinda factual and objective but when its about jews many people like to generalize.
when you call them out they act like youd demonize them because you cant argue against their points. "Nazikeule"

 

[Huw_Dawson]

Curse not being a student anymore. I was hunting on Google Scholar for papers on the topic of anti-semitism in the Ottoman Empire for reference.

It did throw up a paper on 'Israel and the New Anti-Semitism' from 2002 though. Not really a new topic of discussion!

 

[freethought]

I see antisemitism on the rise in germany mainly due to disagreements with israels gaza policies.

Are you sure that's the main reason?

 

[Renekton]

I see antisemitism on the rise in germany mainly due to disagreements with israels gaza policies.
its weird since usually these debates are kinda factual and objective but when its about jews many people like to generalize.
when you call them out they act like youd demonize them because you cant argue against their points. "Nazikeule"

How factual and objective are the debates? The Isreal-Palestine news seems very grey, storied and complicated to me with neither side looking like a saint.

But debates and internet discussions tend to be very one-sided playing up human drama.

 

[Violet_0]

Are you sure that's the main reason?

and what do you think would be the reason

 

[Shake Appeal]

The troubling thing is, I see ordinary people in everyday life, who have no particularly strong religious affiliation themselves, make the same sweeping conclusions. They cannot/will not divorce the actions of Israel and the actions of Jews everywhere, even though their are many many Jews all over the world who are critical of Israel's conduct. It baffles me that I have to explain to some people that being Jewish does not automatically make me blindly pro-Israel.

This is as much a problem, if not more a problem, with Israeli Jews and Jews overseas as it is with non-Jews. It is the avowed position of the current Israeli government -- and every Orthodox Jew in Israel -- that Israel is synonymous with Judaism.

 

[IISANDERII]

Are you sure that's the main reason?

Is that not reason enough? An entire culture of people are being systematically wiped out.

 

[diunxx]

saw, for the first time, the true dimensions of the greatest crime since human beings first set foot on Earth.

White people really wants us to forget about slavery and the colonization of america it seems.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Are you sure that's the main reason?

Couldnt think of any other reason.
Thats always the topic that brings out the antisemitic opinions.

 

[theaface]

White people really wants us to forget about slavery and the colonization of america it seems.

I don't mind being proven wrong, but I really can't think of any worse atrocity committed than the holocaust. There was a documentary on TV in the UK recently called 'Night Will Fall' which shows (in unflinching detail) some of the scenes and footage of the liberation of the main concentration camps. I sincerely hope there never was, is or will be anything worse in the world than what that footage showed.

By the way, the holocaust was, of course, committed by white people. Moreover, that was part and parcel of the 'logic' for it happening.

 

[EdwardTeach]

Most of the rise of "anti-Semitism" is within the immigrant Muslim community in Europe.
The Muslim antagonism towards the Jews largely stems from the creation of Israel and displacement of the native Arab population. Since then Israel has fought several wars with her Arab neighbours and is in a continuous state of conflict with the Palestinians. Israel is coming out "on top" in all these conflicts with Muslims, so for Muslims there is a sense that Israel (and therfore jews) are oppressing the Muslims.
It is fair to say that if Israel had never been created then there would be much less anti-Semitism in the world.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

It's disgusting, but with a headline like that shouldn't the data to back it up be more... statistical? Terrorist attacks are unfortunate and all, but I doubt it's a daily concern like general on-the-street anti-semitism.

Linking European/North American Jews to Israel is wrong. Convenient for some but still wrong.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

How factual and objective are the debates? The Isreal-Palestine news seems very grey, storied and complicated to me with neither side looking like a saint.

But debates and internet discussions tend to be very one-sided playing up human drama.

Usually very factual in german media but somehow many people only see one side.

My neighbor is actually gaza correspondent for the biggest evening news and he is constantly baffled by how people apprechiate parts of his reporting and completely ignore other parts.
many people think aggression is only coming from israel.

 

[Gustav]

Yup, according to a lot of posters, it's your own fault, Jews! Should have never established Israel.

Also, it's just "anti-semitism". Not proper anti-semitism. Don't be such drama queens, you Jews!

 

[KillerMan91]

I don't mind being proven wrong, but I really can't think of any worse atrocity committed than the holocaust. There was a documentary on TV in the UK recently called 'Night Will Fall' which shows (in unflinching detail) some of the scenes and footage of the liberation of the main concentration camps. I sincerely hope there never was, is or will be anything worse in the world than what that footage showed.

By the way, the holocaust was, of course, committed by white people. Moreover, that was part and parcel of the 'logic' for it happening.

Probably Mongol conquests. Mongol conquests had an death toll close to WWII and we are talking about a world with a lot smaller population back then.

 

[Cromat]

Trying to justify or contextualize this by referring to the Israeli government is nothing more than elaborate victim blaming.

The US and UK both launched an invasion and occupation of a country for no good reason, leading to more casualties than the entire Israeli-Arab conflict on all sides. And yet no American or British person has ever had to fear identifying themselves as such in the same way Israelis in Europe and even Jews in general do right now.

Israel is not monolithic and its policies change according to who is in power. In 2008 Israeli prime minister Olmert offered Palestinians a fair deal for peace and the hatred and vitriol did not subside.

 

[freethought]

Couldnt think of any other reason.
Thats always the topic that brings out the antisemitic opinions.

Honestly, I was just making a bad joke. Plenty of antisemites use criticism of Israel as a deflection, just as Israel uses antisemitism as a deflection for criticism. Makes it difficult for those of us who would just generally like there to be less bombing in the world.

Probably Mongol conquests. Mongol conquests had an death toll close to WWII and we are talking about a world with a lot smaller population back then.

I'm sure if World War II had lasted for well over a century it would have edged it out. I think they made a fine showing considering they only had six years.

 

[Gustav]

Probably Mongol conquests. Mongol conquests had an death toll close to WWII and we are talking about a world with a lot smaller population back then.

Did they have factories to kill people?

 

[ultratruman]

So much ignorance in this thread towards the gravity of the Holocaust. Astonishing.

 

[Violet_0]

Did they have factories to kill people?

they rode around, pillaged, killed and raped people like most of the rest of the medieval world. Is this yet another atrocities contest (this post is not just directed at you)

 

[massoluk]

Maybe, but does the sentiment turn into violence against muslims often?



Probably, but anti-semitism wouldn't disappear if Israeli policies suddenly did a 180.

Oh, it wouldn't, but I sure as hell think things will improve

 

[Gustav]

they rode around, pillaged, killed and raped people like most of the rest of the medieval world. Is this yet another atrocities contest (this post is not just directed at you)

I don't want a contest. I want to educate on the holocaust.

 

[gerg]

White people really wants us to forget about slavery and the colonization of america it seems.

I'm not often one for the depiction of the Holocaust as unique among the world's historic atrocities, but there really was something to its nature that set it apart from what had gone before. Slavery and colonialisation was certainly part of the "logic" of race that enabled the Holocaust to happen, but slavery and colonialism (afaik) weren't as technologically dependent as the Holocaust. Certainly that difference is as much a product of the difference in time between the two events, but it explains why the latter was (and still is) so shocking. I've made this point before, but the horror of the Holocaust is not just its scale, but in how it turned the new technology of the time, which was supposed to represent the pinnacle of modern man's rational capabilities, towards the extermination of select groups of people. (Perhaps, however, comparisons can be made to argue that slavery was also technologically-dependent to the same degree.) Events following the Holocaust, such as the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, which also displayed the capacity of new technology to destroy on a previously unimaginable scale, signalled the death of modernist thought in the late 20th century.

If you want a reason as for why the Holocaust is framed so uniquely, then I think that's part of it.

 

[sploatee]

Yup, according to a lot of posters, it's your own fault, Jews! Should have never established Israel.

Also, it's just "anti-semitism". Not proper anti-semitism. Don't be such drama queens, you Jews!

Hahaha! I know!

I suggest watching some of the leaked Palestinian / Saudi tv broadcasts. It's not about Israel. It's about Jews and their extermination.

I'm Jewish by background (even though I don't believe in sky beard man) and have had many many many many many lengthy discussions /arguments about this with family (Moroccan Jewish). It's just pure race hate. There's nothing particularly sophisticated about it. It sits there simmering until Israel goes and does something disproportionate (again) and then put it comes, with many liberal lefties (of which I am one) trying to explain it away.

I think I posted a while back about how much of my family was lost during the Holocaust. Even the synagogues I used to go to had security guards and barbed wire.

The simple fact is that people will always hate Jews. The degree of severity just comes in cycles.


Anyway, I'm going to duck out, actually. Reading some of the same old points again and again becomes tiring. No, the mention of the holocaust does not diminish slavery, other genocides, Palestinian mistreatment. No, the Arab world pre-Israel was not some ideal multicultural society. No, the creation of a state of Palestine would not solve any of these problems. No, Jews do not bring this on themselves, they just get everything attached to them by everybody else. No, Jews aren't natural moneylenders or moguls, we were just forced into those roles by being excluded from everything else. Same old same old. At some point there will be a recycling of how Jews exploited African American communities, of how many Jews there are in the Bilderberg group etc etc etc. Nothing ever gets resolved.

Religion eh? Colonialism eh?

 

[Yagharek]

There is a point beyond which you need to acknowledge that comparisons with other atrocities are meaningless in terms of learning important lessons.

Yes, the Mongols did bad things. But what can we learn from that now? It was centuries ago and in a society unlike any around now.

The Holocaust was recent and is incredibly important as an example of how bad the consequences of racism, scapegoats, oppression, silence and dehumanising propaganda can be.

We can never forget it. Maybe a thousand years from now it will be the case more events will be as important, but we better bloody hope not.

 

[mugurumakensei]

In the Middle East it will. There was not antisemitism in the ME prior to the existence of Israel. The hatred became much stronger because of Israeli policies. If a fair peace between Palestinians and Israelis happen tomorrow, then hatred towards the Jews, will be much, much less in the ME. In Europe that´s another story, because there was always discrimination against the Jews.

It wouldn't. A fair amount of majority muslim countries allied with Hitler in WWII primarily due to a shared a hatred of Jews.

 

[Acorn]

I don't mind being proven wrong, but I really can't think of any worse atrocity committed than the holocaust. There was a documentary on TV in the UK recently called 'Night Will Fall' which shows (in unflinching detail) some of the scenes and footage of the liberation of the main concentration camps. I sincerely hope there never was, is or will be anything worse in the world than what that footage showed.

By the way, the holocaust was, of course, committed by white people. Moreover, that was part and parcel of the 'logic' for it happening.

OT but do you remember what channel it was on? On something of a ww2 doc binge right now

 

[ultratruman]

they rode around, pillaged, killed and raped people like most of the rest of the medieval world. Is this yet another atrocities contest (this post is not just directed at you)

Was their aim to pillage, or to extinguish a race? When people talk about the Holocaust being the most evil thing to ever happen, they're not just playing a number game. They're talking about the motivations of the Nazi's, who went to obscene, industrial lengths for the sole purpose of exterminating every Jew in Europe.

 

[KillerMan91]

I'm sure if World War II had lasted for well over a century it would have edged it out. I think they made a fine showing considering they only had six years.

Oh. Definitely. Sometimes I just feel that people forget that we humans have done some terrific shit across the whole history. In no way I want to belittle what happened during WWII or holocaust. Still sents shivers down to my spine when I sometimes get lost in wikipedia reading about it all.

Did they have factories to kill people?

Well maybe we should not make this atrocities contest after all. Just realized that there are no winners in that. Holocaust is definitely there amongst the top together with whole WWII (Japanese did pretty horrific stuff in Asia too)

 

[theaface]

OT but do you remember what channel it was on? On something of a ww2 doc binge right now

Channel 4. It's context is that it's a documentary about a documentary that Sydney Bernstein was asked to make after the end of WWII, to document the truth of what happened in the camps. The project was eventually shelved as it was deemed too politically sensitive to air (cold war rhetoric was starting to become a thing, and old enemies were becoming allies, etc), but the Imperial War Museum recently completed it. Night Will Fall itself is actually narrated by Helena Bonham Carter.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

It most certainly is on the rise and hopefully more media outlets and government figures will pay attention. It certainly isn't accurate to say that we are looking at a return to the antisemitism of the Holocaust, but it isn't much of an exaggeration to say that we are returning to the antisemitism of Europe that existed prior to the Holocaust - Jews weren't exactly popular before Hitler came along. Sympathy for Jews since the Holocaust helped to reduce the phenomenon of antisemitism but such lessons are easily forgotten, especially by generations of young Europeans for whom the events seem ancient and unconnected, and who may feel they are asked to bear the guilt of their ancestors. This is to say nothing of those who are at risk of radicalisation by antisemitic hate preachers.

As for antisemitism in the middle east, it is quite clear that the major cause is the existence of Israel, rather than policies of the Israeli government. The nonsensical claims that there was no antisemitism prior to the existence of Israel at least bear an unintentional recognition of the fact that antisemitism did not arise when Israel started to settle lands it had acquired through defensive wars but as early as the moment they announced a Jewish state (the truth is of course that it goes way back and the breed of antisemitism we see in the Middle East today grew as the Jewish presence in 'Muslim lands' grew - see the close cooperation between the Mufti of Jerusalem and the Nazis for this. Israel came to exist despite, not because of the Holocaust, and many Arab leaders hoped Hitler would achieve his goals and Israel would never come to be).

 

[J10]

I never had the idea that antisemitism went away. I hear people say nasty shit about Jewish folks as regularly as pretty much everybody else.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

So much ignorance in this thread towards the gravity of the Holocaust. Astonishing.

This is actually what bothers me the most in my country. People belitteling the holocaust. Playing it down, comparing it to other tertible events. Or just the occasional "lets move on already. It wasnt our fault."

Wouldnt call that antisemitism but its stupid and dangerous nontheless.

Germany is very aware of its past. Its not like this isnrisnt talked about. But I'm not sure i like the way we talk about it. As if this wasnt us but someone else and it just happend to happen in our country. As if nazis werent german.

 

[Jag]

So UC Davis passes a BDS resolution and two days later this shows up on the Jewish fraternity house.

Coincidence? Clearly anti-Israel and anti-semitism are related. Which is unfortunate because it makes it very hard to determine is someone is really anti-Israel or just using it to cover for their own hatred of Jews.

Legitimate opposition to Israel is fine. Hell many Israelis don't agree with Netanyahu, just like many Americans hated Bush, but invoking the Holocaust and the extermination of an entire people just cannot be tolerated.

 

[ultratruman]

So UC Davis passes a BDS resolution and two days later this shows up on the Jewish fraternity house.

Coincidence? Clearly anti-Israel and anti-semitism are related. Which is unfortunate because it makes it very hard to determine is someone is really anti-Israel or just using it to cover for their own hatred of Jews.

Legitimate opposition to Israel is fine. Hell many Israelis don't agree with Netanyahu, just like many Americans hated Bush, but invoking the Holocaust and the extermination of an entire people just cannot be tolerated.

there's also a difference between disagreeing with the politics or human rights record of Israel and saying the Israeli state has no right to exist.

 

[pgtl_10]

The owner of that Jewish market in France moved to Israel right?

As much as people like to bash Israel (fairly, usually) it's sometimes clear a Jewish state should exist since anti-semitism seems to be a costant problem, at least to some extent, everywhere.

A Jewish State, Muslim State, Christian , State, racial state should not. These concepts lead to more racism. People should not be treated as something special. They should be treated as equals.

 

[ultratruman]

A Jewish State, Muslim State, Christian , State, racial state should not. These concepts lead to more racism. People should not be treated as something special. They should be treated as equals.

Israel isn't a theocracy, unlike the vast majority of muslim states. If Ataturk could see the state of Turkey today he would weep. Egalitarianism only takes you so far, but you're right that a secular establishment should be the crucial distinction.

 

[Succinct Verbosity]

Trying to justify or contextualize this by referring to the Israeli government is nothing more than elaborate victim blaming.

The US and UK both launched an invasion and occupation of a country for no good reason, leading to more casualties than the entire Israeli-Arab conflict on all sides. And yet no American or British person has ever had to fear identifying themselves as such in the same way Israelis in Europe and even Jews in general do right now.

Israel is not monolithic and its policies change according to who is in power. In 2008 Israeli prime minister Olmert offered Palestinians a fair deal for peace and the hatred and vitriol did not subside.

Trying to understand something doesn't mean somebody is justifying it. There is no rationality in linking Israel's policies with the religion as a whole, but that is something to discuss in order to understand the mentality of xenophobia or hate in general.

 

[gutter_trash]

Being critical of Bibi Netanyahu's policies should not be equated to antisemitism.

it seems like Israel can do no wrong under the antisemitic card.

Larry David was one of the few who could pull off successful jokes out of the matter.
Love the Palestinian Chicken episode

 

[Chichikov]

It most certainly is on the rise and hopefully more media outlets and government figures will pay attention. It certainly isn't accurate to say that we are looking at a return to the antisemitism of the Holocaust, but it isn't much of an exaggeration to say that we are returning to the antisemitism of Europe that existed prior to the Holocaust - Jews weren't exactly popular before Hitler came along. Sympathy for Jews since the Holocaust helped to reduce the phenomenon of antisemitism but such lessons are easily forgotten, especially by generations of young Europeans for whom the events seem ancient and unconnected, and who may feel they are asked to bear the guilt of their ancestors. This is to say nothing of those who are at risk of radicalisation by antisemitic hate preachers.

I don't know if it's actually on the rise, but I do know that saying that the level of anti semitism in Europe now is getting anywhere near the same ballpark to what it was before the holocaust is just plain false.
I don't know what period you're referring about specifically, but go read about stuff like the Kishinev pogrom or the hep hep riots (to name oh so very few).
We're talking about lynch mobs going out to murder and rape Jews in large numbers, usually with at least half support of the local authorities.
That comparison is ridiculous.

 

[pgtl_10]

So UC Davis passes a BDS resolution and two days later this shows up on the Jewish fraternity house.

Coincidence? Clearly anti-Israel and anti-semitism are related. Which is unfortunate because it makes it very hard to determine is someone is really anti-Israel or just using it to cover for their own hatred of Jews.

Legitimate opposition to Israel is fine. Hell many Israelis don't agree with Netanyahu, just like many Americans hated Bush, but invoking the Holocaust and the extermination of an entire people just cannot be tolerated.

I can oppose Zionism and not be antisemitic.

Zionism is a form of racism and often leads to racism. I'm Palestinian. The amount of racism attributed towards me for a so called "Jewish State" is a result of racism being the answer to racism. It's not. Integration should be the answer not special status afforded to an individual.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

Being critical of Bibi Netanyahu's policies should not be equated to antisemitism.

it seems like Israel can do no wrong under the antisemitic card.

Larry David was one of the few who could pull off successful jokes out of the matter.
Love the Palestinian Chicken episode

This article is about Jews being murdered and hurt in other ways because they are being Jews. Nothing to do with Netanyahu's policies. 1000s of Jews aren't fleeing France because some political commentator is criticising the Israeli government.

You're right about Palestinian Chicken.

 

[War Peaceman]

Anti-Semitism is deep-rooted in mainland Europe. It pre-dates even the Black Death. I've read about how during those times the Jews were blamed because they were a separate community with weird beliefs. Basically they were different. It is no surprise that this has continued ever since, though it is very sad.

The existence of Israel has almost certainly exacerbated anti-semitism, too. The existence of a concrete, geo-political enemy legitimises anti-semitism to the country's enemies and promotes further propaganda. This is of course, not the fault of Israelis just a depressing and unfortunate outcome.

But the general intensifying of geo-politics post 9-11/Arab Spring/ISIS certainly doesn't help.

Very sad state of affairs.

 

[-Cwalat-]

He wasn't amused by Stephen Fry what so ever... or he knew what the answer to the questions were gonna be so he wen into the dark depths of his subconscious.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Maybe people should ask themselves why anti-semitism is on the rise, if in fact it is.

Go on...

What you're dealing with is shitty as hell, but it's pretty common for people of any nationality to be held responsible for the mistakes of their country.

I am equally concerned about a rise in anti-Semitism as I am about anti-Islam sentiment. Both are extremely troubling.

You completely missed the point of his post. Do you realize that not all Jews are Israelis?

 

[gutter_trash]

This article is about Jews being murdered and hurt in other ways because they are being Jews. Nothing to do with Netanyahu's policies. 1000s of Jews aren't fleeing France because some political commentator is criticising the Israeli government.

You're right about Palestinian Chicken.

the french problem at the moment is mostly the wedge between minorities vs other minorities.

French need to fix their stuff

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

I don't know if it's actually on the rise, but I do know that saying that the level of anti semitism in Europe now is getting anywhere near the same ballpark to what it was before the holocaust is just plain false.
I don't know what period you're referring about specifically, but go read about stuff like the Kishinev pogrom or the hep hep riots (to name oh so very few).
We're talking about lynch mobs going out to murder and rape Jews in large numbers, usually with at least half support of the local authorities.
That comparison is ridiculous.

The number of attacks is on the rise, if you don't know that it simply means you haven't seen the figures - for example after the French attacks the media often mentioned that the number of reported attacks had doubled in the past year. I'd be happy to dig out some links tomorrow if you like, I'm heading to bed soon...

But before I do, I just remembered where I encountered this idea that the growing antisemitism is more like a relapse to the pre-holocaust days than to the Holocaust itself, this blog post.

People today keep talking about a “resurgence of anti-Semitism” as if at some point anti-Semitism stopped existing. It didn’t. If what they mean is that this is once again a march towards the Holocaust they’re dead wrong. This is not the beginning of another Holocaust. This is Europe finally recovered from its post Holocaust hangover, this is Europe returning to the good old fashioned anti-Semitism of the pre Holocaust world, albeit with a different cast of characters. The complaint about the Holocaust was never that it was unsafe for Jews to walk the streets but that being a Jew was a death sentence. It was a highly organised system of dehumanisation and murder beginning with government and encapsulating all citizens of Germany and the other countries they conquered.

Yet it still feels as if the Holocaust is still happening for many. As if behind every corner a new Hitler awaits with an old plan. It still feels as if we Jews are simply waiting for the next demagogue to step from the shadows and call for our destruction once again. We have yet to truly recover.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that many Jews in Europe are beginning to experience the kind of fears that existed before the rise of Naziism - the memory of that genocide is of course likely to make Jews more alarmed than they otherwise would be by violent incidents against them.