Neither are all Muslims ISIS or all Arabs suicide bombers. People are dumb.
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WSJ: The Return of Anti-Semitism
- Thread starter Crash Station
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Neither are all Muslims ISIS or all Arabs suicide bombers. People are dumb.
When someone in that thread has that opinion, I won't begrudge you pointing it out as wrong. What's with all of the contests people are trying to start in a thread about anti-semitism?
Israel is however a state that sees one group as more special than another group. This achieves nothing but foster entitlement in one group and hatred towards those not part of said group.
It's a testament to the pernicious and cruel nature of anti-Semitism that we only register its existence when Jews start getting killed. Anti-Semitism never went away; it just was slightly less awful than "kill all the jews" over the last 60 years.
Jews, Blacks, and Native Americans are in a tight race for "most persecuted minority."
Jews, Blacks, and Native Americans are in a tight race for "most persecuted minority."
TheExecutive
Member
Don't see any more hatred for the Jew than against any other religion or creed.
Maninthemirror
Banned
I am a bit confused about anti-jewish and anti-semetic
I assumed Anti-Semetic was a prejudice against ethnic Jews and Jewish religion. So if you criticize the faith you are called an Anti-Semetic still? If you criticize the faithful rather than faith itself ? I know it is more of a ethnoreligious thing but other religions could use the same argument as well.
This is coming from someone who says any religion like Judaism which is not causing harm to society should not be prejudiced against and ethnic prejudice is obvious hatred.
I assumed Anti-Semetic was a prejudice against ethnic Jews and Jewish religion. So if you criticize the faith you are called an Anti-Semetic still? If you criticize the faithful rather than faith itself ? I know it is more of a ethnoreligious thing but other religions could use the same argument as well.
This is coming from someone who says any religion like Judaism which is not causing harm to society should not be prejudiced against and ethnic prejudice is obvious hatred.
gutter_trash
Banned
I think Native Americans (First Nations) have won that award as most persecuted especially since their political weight and influence are almost non-existant.
The only thing holding back their clear victory is that they've only been persecuted for 300-400 years, while we've been murdering Jews for millennia -- anti-Semitism hardly began with the holocaust, as Jews were ostracized long before then in very significant ways. It's a tight race, but Native Americans are sprinting ahead, I agree with that.
SamuelSupreme
Banned
Black people need a haven like Israel
No, they're an excuse or a justification for prejudice. There is no reason for disapproval of the Israeli government to cause persecution of Jews in Europe.
Alx
Member
I strongly disagree with that idea, at least that of "Jewish people should go find refuge in Israel". If anything it would only push the idea that the Jewish population can't find a way to live in other countries, and would even reward violent actions that manage to "kick Jews out of the country".
PhantomHound
Banned
ReplacementPelican
Member
I take it this is in the United States you're talking about, right? Because if we're talking about worldwide there are minorities in countries such as Burma which face extermination so that Burma can be more 'pure'. Given the direction of this thread it'd probably be ill advised to bring up the Palestinians but shit, they've got it pretty bad too.
The Holocaust to me is a Hell of a thing because it's really treated as a singular event, something which was a blip in our history but it's nothing new or nothing old and we've been doing these horrific, terrible things throughout history. Treating it as a one-off really seems to take some of the horror away from the Holocaust.
You do realize Mao Zedong literally starved or killed almost 40 million Chinese to death during the cultural revolution right? Or Joseph Station eradicating nearly 10-20 million people through mass executions, purges, lifetime gulag sentences, starvation. The Indonesian invasion of East Timor roughly killed almost 45% of the total population of the nation.
And if you think Nazi Germany rule was bad, the North Korean regime that is still alive to this day, makes them look like amateurs by comparison. North Korea's regime has ruled with an iron fist for almost 60+ years now. Hundreds of thousands killed, hundreds of thousands sentenced to generational punishment. Which means their kids, their grandkids will also be sentenced to a life of hard labor in a similar concentration camp because of something they might have down decades back. They're revered as God's because of their total control over their people, people who are brainwashed into oblivion. Unless your military, you're basically starving to death.
Human suffering is universal, there is no, oh my god, this is the worst, or these people have had it worst. You'll look on it with what you can relate to. Where would you rank something like the Partition of India, where literally overnight, you had a mass migration of 15 million people, forced to pack up and move across country lines? Within days almost 200,000 to 700,000 people killed each other in violence or fighting.
Posts in this thread are saying that antisemitism is justifying zionism. I'm against racial exclusitivity as an answer to racism.
It is why I also feel America's approach to not playing favorites among groups is still better than other societies that pass laws protecting certain groups while allowing others to be exposed to racism is stupid. It's why Holocaust denial laws are dumb because everybody wants protection from what offers them.
Racism is something best fought against by having governments that don't discriminate against on race, sex, ethniticity, sexual preference, etc... States being set up to protect one group often lead to other groups being oppressed.
I'm against the concept of a Nation and see everyone as human only so my views ran counter o most.
They gave Haiti to former slaves
Wow, you actually believe that? People will always hate other groups, especially of they are closed and don't integrate. Imagining a society where people are 100 welcoming of jews is a pipe dream, because people are dumb everywhere in the world, and you will always see anti-semitism with or without Israel.
Baki
Member
I wouldn't think so in Western Europe. I would say education system and media has done a good job of this.
(last part wasn't relevant)
freethought
Member
No-one looks like amateurs compared to the Nazis when it comes to the systemic extermination of an entire people. Estimates suggest the Jewish populations of Germany, Austria and Poland were reduced by as much as 95%, nowhere in history has genocide been more effectively or efficiently carried out.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/french-jews-flock-to-israel-amid-rising-anti-semitic-attacks-1.2899582
France now has the largest population of Jews emigrating to Israel. 7,000 in 2014. Between 10 to 15 thousand in 2015. With 50 to 100 thousand in the next 5-10 years. It's a soft exodus if anything. But still an exodus.
I wonder how bad it will get? Of course consolidating their numbers in Israel will continue to create a bad image for Jews worldwide. The less voices of theirs heard from within Western countries and the more it comes from Israel will only create more suspicion and distrust.
France now has the largest population of Jews emigrating to Israel. 7,000 in 2014. Between 10 to 15 thousand in 2015. With 50 to 100 thousand in the next 5-10 years. It's a soft exodus if anything. But still an exodus.
I wonder how bad it will get? Of course consolidating their numbers in Israel will continue to create a bad image for Jews worldwide. The less voices of theirs heard from within Western countries and the more it comes from Israel will only create more suspicion and distrust.
Unfortunately, I think the poor behavior of Israel (and it has been very awful, no argument here) has allowed anti-Semitism to be easily masked.
Please note I'm not suggesting Phoenician is an anti-Semite (I'm definitely not, Phoenician), but rather, that many people seem to passionately hate Israel, and it's difficult for the layman to distinguish between disgust for Israeli policies and old fashioned anti-Semitism.
I think there is ample evidence that anti-Semitism is common and long standing in the middle east, in addition to the totally justifiable anger that many Palestinians feel regarding their treatment by Israel.
This is The Hague last august:
Protesters were shouting chants idolizing ISIS, praising Hamas and literally: "kill all the Jews".
gutter_trash
Banned
Haiti gained its independance from France via revolution. It was not given
the US was in schock at the time and afraid that the same could happen in the US. So an embargo was imposed to lay the hurt on Haiti
No black people like all people need to be judge on content of character an not skin color in the country they live in.
This lets give this group and that group their own state does not fight racism but only give racists more reason to be racists in hopes of kicking out undesirable groups.
It's why Liberia and Israel never really achieve the peace that people thought would come.
It's why I oppose a Palestinian state but not a state of Palestine. My ethnicity should never afford me special rights. I fear that people will believe that they have a right to treat people like trash who are not Palestinian. It will also encourage racists to be more cruel to certain people in hopes that certain groups leave to form their own state.
It's why Zionism was a bad answer to antisemitism. Racists can conclude Jews ran from them because of how racists treated Jews. Therefore, if racists treated another group like the Roma the same way then maybe they will leave to create a state of their own too.
GameGuru59
Banned
This is what happens when you try to tamp down racism and bigotry with laws and policies like firing people, than having an actual civil rights movement. When you engage in a conversation with people, even if you don't like their views, they are less likely to feel persecuted and more likely to hear your point of view. Excommunicating people from society just makes them angrier and thus more dangerous.
But nope, can't tolerate anything like that in the workplace (or in the case of Europe, in public discourse at all) or we'll all go mad!
But nope, can't tolerate anything like that in the workplace (or in the case of Europe, in public discourse at all) or we'll all go mad!
While I certainly don't believe that, Israel has made the problem worse rather than better. It's unfortunate that being Jewish is equated with Israel, especially since some of the largest vocal critics of Israeli policy are Jews(hell, a lot of them are Israeli), but Israel is also to blame for that as well as the nation portrays itself as part of the Jewish identity. Right now it's pretty clear that the Israeli government has no interest in peace, and that is definitely harming the image of Israel and, in turn, harming the image of Jews and being a contributing cause to the rise of anti-semitism.
It's similar to how ISIS and Al Qaeda and whatever other Islamic religious nutjob is causing a rise in Islamophobia despite most Muslims not wanting to do anything with them and despite their biggest critics and largest number of victims being Muslim.
The only problem with that is that Black people are not a culture. There is nothing other than skin color that unites African Americans, Somalis, and Zulus. While you could make the case for Black Americans having a haven, there is already an entire continent of Black people.
GameGuru59
Banned
We already tried that (or at least the US did). It's called Liberia. There was a movement, led mostly by white people, to encourage black people to move back to Africa. Most people refused. And as you can see, Liberia ain't doing so hot right now.
Baki
Member
This is The Hague last august:
Protesters were shouting chants idolizing ISIS, praising Hamas and literally: "kill all the Jews".
Wouldn't use it as a data point to suggest widespread anti-semitism in Europe. That gathering also looks rather small.
Again, I think the education/media system has done a pretty good job in reducing anti-semitism in Western Europe.
I have to agree with this.
Any rise in anti-semitism is mostly down to the state of Israel's numerous war crimes. Israel is really screwing over Jews with their shenanigans.
I love how every instance of racism towards blacks, islamophobia, homophobia, etc. is treated with at least appropriate and sometimes even alarmist responses. But anti-semitism has to deal with this kind of shit.
When Charlie Hebdo happened, people were literally showing solidarity with muslims all over the world. When a report comes out that states rising anti-Semitism, it get's dismissed. This is beyond fucked up.
The bigger issue is the American abandonment of Liberia. Had it been treated like an overseas possession, as was the original idea, Liberia would definitely be a lot better off.
And Liberia, much like Israel, brings up moral issues concerning the native population, which today make up the vast majority of Liberian people.
Anti-Semitism will unfortunately continue to rise as Europe and Muslims fail to integrate with eachother. That region is a boiling pot of angry people; and will only get worse as their economies decline. Angry people will continue to point to Jews, and there won't be less things to be angry about in the near future. And with the rise of social media and jackasses like Dieudonné, it will propagate like wildfire.
Succinct Verbosity
Member
Unitergrated immigrants aren't the only people leading to the rise of anti-Semitism. Established far right European parties may tolerate Judaism, but they still view Europe as strictly Christian and they are certainly the type of people to believe in zionist conspiracies.
Crash Station
Member
I believe there are levels of zionism. I don't think someone saying Israel has a right to exist automatically means they support the continued persecution of Palestinians or their hindered rights.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
This is anecdotal, of course, but I've seen an incredibly disturbing amount of anti-Semitism (sometimes thinly-veiled, sometimes not even that) in Canada. And not just Canada in general, but super-multicultural places with sizable Jewish communities like Toronto.
Like, I've had a few separate incidents in the past where co-workers have started telling me (unprompted) about how the Holocaust is exaggerated and how they don't completely trust their Jewish co-workers or things like that. And they seem to have internalized this stuff so deeply, that when I try to contradict them they're surprised I disagree and seem to think I'm deluded. I've had countless more incidents where I hear super-casual, almost unconscious anti-Semitic stuff.
I've only heard this kind of thing from some Pakistani/Arab Muslims (and Polish people, for some reason) and as far as I can tell, these sorts of attitudes haven't really spread to the general population. Still, it's very scary.
Like, I've had a few separate incidents in the past where co-workers have started telling me (unprompted) about how the Holocaust is exaggerated and how they don't completely trust their Jewish co-workers or things like that. And they seem to have internalized this stuff so deeply, that when I try to contradict them they're surprised I disagree and seem to think I'm deluded. I've had countless more incidents where I hear super-casual, almost unconscious anti-Semitic stuff.
I've only heard this kind of thing from some Pakistani/Arab Muslims (and Polish people, for some reason) and as far as I can tell, these sorts of attitudes haven't really spread to the general population. Still, it's very scary.
Jag
Member
Sounds like Kristallnacht all over again and people wonder why Jews are so sensitive to Nazi era threats.
MHWilliams
Member
All the time? Especially after the Hedbo attacks.
Doesn't diminish or enhance this problem. They're different issues.
Tallshortman
Member
This is The Hague last august:
Protesters were shouting chants idolizing ISIS, praising Hamas and literally: "kill all the Jews".
Yes several of the protests, especially that one in France, during the Israeli Hamas conflict got very, very ugly and it was very apparent in SOME of those protests that a significant portion of the people there were extreme anti-Semites.
Whether it was intended to be or not, Islamist infiltrated some of these protests and some turned violent.
It's also unfortunate because it takes away from legitimate protests to Israeli actions, these idiots living in European countries attacking Jewish populations that have been there for hundreds of years are disgusting. They have been part of the fabric of European history for so long it's very sad they're further being driven away.
I wouldn't say it was "given", they started a slave revolution and made retaking the island too costly for it to be worth it to the French.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Antisemitism is odd, because Judaism falls in the gap between an ethnicity and a religion. Critisicm of Judaism as a faith and a faith alone isn't really a "thing," because the practice is intrinsically linked to the practitioners (we don't get enough converts for non-ethnic Jews to be a large enough minority to hate
). It's different from Christianity or Islam where it's a more broad-spread practice.Poodlestrike
Banned
Yeah! If those darn Israelis would only stop acting like dicks, I'm sure the millenia-old hatred of Jews in Europe and the Middle East would decrease a lot.
These things are both rational and solely predicated on current events, you see.
I'd say it would.
Social media would be euphoric and people would be relatively content.
Of course, antisemitism would still exist, but it would lessen quite a bit I wager.
Antisemitism is odd, because Judaism falls in the gap between an ethnicity and a religion. Critisicm of Judaism as a faith and a faith alone isn't really a "thing," because the practice is intrinsically linked to the practitioners (we don't get enough converts for non-ethnic Jews to be a large enough minority to hate
No one is fire-bombing synagogues because the Jews refuse to accept Jesus or Muhammad. There are certainly attacks against all sorts of people all the time, but antisemitism is the denigration of the people specifically, not their views or observances. (Yes this happens at mosques, yes islamophobia is real too, yes christians were killed in africa etc).
However, antisemitism is somewhat unique in that the hatred is so old that it has become intertwined with cultural stereotypes and wrapped into conspiracy theories about cabals and plots that other forms of hatred are just too young to enjoy. Also, given the fact that there are so few of us, and people in small towns can go a lifetime without ever meeting a jew, there's that added level of mystery and intrigue that only adds to it's pervasiveness and stamina
So I'm admitting this is all honesty, a few nights ago I was talking about dating with some friends and I said, "I'd have a hard time dating a Jewish girl because of the whole Israel thing". As soon as I said it I felt really fucking terrible. Because the two don't have anything to do with each other. But it was a gut response and I said it without thinking. I feel like that's a mildly anti-Semitic thing to say, ignorant, and I'm really sorry for it. But analysing it, I think as people's distain for Israel grows (and I do think that's the trend even amongst Americans) people are prone to conflate and generalize that to Jewish people generally. So I do think sadly that anti-Semitism is likely to become more prevalent again, at least in the short term.
Gazans?
LyleLanley
Banned
I feel like there has been a rise in casual anti-semitism, if that's the correct term, more people seem to be fine with the use of Jewish stereotypes. Of course this could just be what I observed and I'm sure it's different for other people.
Crash Station
Member
Didn't you go to Israel semi-recently? Or am I thinking of someone else?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
I'd love to hear an explanation from you on 'why'
What solution would end it?
two states? they're will be people yelling about the other land that was 'stolen'
one state? they're will be issues with integration which will reflect badly on any jewish majority
continued occupation? same thing were seeing today.
The problem of anti-semtism goes far beyond the Israel conflict. That should clearly be solved but this idea it will cause peace and the end of a millenias long hatred people are mistaken.
Even with the antisemtism rise being cause by Israel's actions it doesn't flow from that to hating a person for being Jewish.
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