Wut...Saudi Arabia to raze Prophet Mohammeds tomb
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Stuff like this makes me think of all the amazing architecture (and the vast history and knowledge that were contained within) that have been destroyed in the name of "progress" or religion or power in our relatively short existence as a species. Why can't we preserve what little we have left? Depressing.
People people people first of all the prophet's grave will not be razed. You have been reading the stories of western press> i find so amusing that westerners are telling muslims how to live their lives. Especially saudis. One of the best things about speaking arabic and having relatives in saudi arabia is that you get to hear the truth amidst the garbage of the slandering that goes on.
If you walked up to any saudi today and called him a wahabi you would get a slap or worse. You see no body in saudi arabia even visits the grave of muhamed ibn abdul wahab the so called originator of wahabism.
Wahabism is just a moniker. Used to troll saudis because they are so strict and zealous when it comes to islam. I mean which muslim country would you get where
the shops close when the azan springs to life
the shariah is fully enforced
alcohol is banned
statues, shrines and maseloums are completely wiped out
Capital punishment for murder and rape amongst other things
The saudis are going on an expansion spree. I dont know if you heard the news lately but 4 million people descended on to plains of arabic in a matter of days. Space does not magically come up. The saudis first concern is the safety ad well being of the pilgrims. Moreover people are tired of being in hotels which are miles away from the holy sites. Cheap affordable hotels are the goal here. If they demolish the house of the prophet's wife then what's the big freakin deal. Are you go the hajj on an archaelogical visit or to worship Allah?
The tombs of Prophet muhammed and abu bakr siddiq and umar bin al khattab will remain where they are. If a new bigger mosque swallows up the mosques of abu bakr and umar then what's the big deal.
I will tell you what the big deal is. Nothing unites the westerner, the shia and the sufi more than the hatred of the saudi. Any slandering or biasedness of oppurtunity will not be missed. But hate does not affect anyone. Least of all the saudis. For i doubt they really care what the haters think or say about them. the sufi and the shia will never in a million years control the holy sites and the westerner doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things
If you walked up to any saudi today and called him a wahabi you would get a slap or worse. You see no body in saudi arabia even visits the grave of muhamed ibn abdul wahab the so called originator of wahabism.
Wahabism is just a moniker. Used to troll saudis because they are so strict and zealous when it comes to islam. I mean which muslim country would you get where
the shops close when the azan springs to life
the shariah is fully enforced
alcohol is banned
statues, shrines and maseloums are completely wiped out
Capital punishment for murder and rape amongst other things
The saudis are going on an expansion spree. I dont know if you heard the news lately but 4 million people descended on to plains of arabic in a matter of days. Space does not magically come up. The saudis first concern is the safety ad well being of the pilgrims. Moreover people are tired of being in hotels which are miles away from the holy sites. Cheap affordable hotels are the goal here. If they demolish the house of the prophet's wife then what's the big freakin deal. Are you go the hajj on an archaelogical visit or to worship Allah?
The tombs of Prophet muhammed and abu bakr siddiq and umar bin al khattab will remain where they are. If a new bigger mosque swallows up the mosques of abu bakr and umar then what's the big deal.
I will tell you what the big deal is. Nothing unites the westerner, the shia and the sufi more than the hatred of the saudi. Any slandering or biasedness of oppurtunity will not be missed. But hate does not affect anyone. Least of all the saudis. For i doubt they really care what the haters think or say about them. the sufi and the shia will never in a million years control the holy sites and the westerner doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things
Why do you posit westerners and muslims as mutually exclusive?
Nice.
The mail article is likely bullshit, they most probably misquoted the source.
No where in the independent it says the tombs of the prophet it getting demolished, its total lunacy to think they will do this.
I have visited the tombs of the prophet myself and its one of the most holiest sites in Islam.
No where in the independent it says the tombs of the prophet it getting demolished, its total lunacy to think they will do this.
I have visited the tombs of the prophet myself and its one of the most holiest sites in Islam.
As someone who cares about history this is sounds extremely sad and shortsighted to me. Who cares about ancient buildings and great history, we need a new hotel here!
Sapphire Dreams
Member
I am a Muslim and I really have no idea what to say about this issue, so many conflicting emotions.
ZiZ
Member
there is no way in hell that the Saudi family are demolishing the prophet's grave, they might remodel the room it's in, but that room isn't even that historical, probably from the ottoman era.
the thing is, every year more and more Muslims come to these holy sites, during Hajj last week there were estimates of 5 million (even though the stated capacity is around 4 million) they've been adding extra space to hold all the pilgrims, and other projects like the new metro.
if they were to keep things as they were it would be impossible to perform Hajj, Hell even during non-Hajj seasons the mosque is super crowded. have any of you been to the mosque? they've done some good things with the expansions. or would you guys rather be stuffed in a tiny old building with 4 million other people with no freaking air conditioning in the middle of the summer in goddamn Saudi Arabia?.
the thing is, every year more and more Muslims come to these holy sites, during Hajj last week there were estimates of 5 million (even though the stated capacity is around 4 million) they've been adding extra space to hold all the pilgrims, and other projects like the new metro.
if they were to keep things as they were it would be impossible to perform Hajj, Hell even during non-Hajj seasons the mosque is super crowded. have any of you been to the mosque? they've done some good things with the expansions. or would you guys rather be stuffed in a tiny old building with 4 million other people with no freaking air conditioning in the middle of the summer in goddamn Saudi Arabia?.
Please tell us more.
Las Vegas: "What Happens in Vegas Stays in Vegas"
Mecca: "Cheap affordable hotels are the goal here. If they demolish the house of the prophet's wife then what's the big freakin deal. Are you go the hajj on an archaelogical visit or to worship Allah?"
The Ottoman Era: Not Evan That Historical
I'm mildly pissed. Whether or not you like how this religion has impacted the world it does hold a lot of historical value and artifacts like this should be preserved.
Not a fan of religion.
DiscoPower
Member
This can't end well.
While I agree that there is a space problem, destroying so much of our history is not the solution. Yes, it doesn't really matter if they are gone, but part of the reason people go there is wanting to relate to the times and experience the world of the Quran and the hadith. Also, just like Safa&Marwa are signs of Abraham and Allah, so are the sites of Islamic history. They were reminders of a time gone by, of the miracles and favors of Allah. Just like Noah's ship has been left as a reminder (surah Qamar), and the body of the pharaoh, the ruins of the destroyed nations, Mt. Sinai, maqqam-e-Ibrahim, the sites of Islamic history were also signs and reminders for us.
I can understand why there is no major outcry for this destruction though (the Saudi's have done a great job making Hajj safer and beautifying the Prophet's mosque), but I don't agree with it. Also the giant hotels they are building in Mecca are hardly cheap. The rent is hundreds of dollars per night.
victreeb3l
Member
you should start to be because we are slowly taking over the world, one halal cart at a time. i hope you like lamb
Read David Batchelor's Chromaphobia and maybe some Foucault too.
*Also, it seems the markings of historic witness seem to be intrinsically tied to a Western concept of taxonomy and lineage here, i.e. the privileging of the historic project. Something Saudi culture simply isn't interested in. The relative material value of these sites is debatable - it seems the Saudis have the ability to look beyond this and have chosen to privilege access to the Hajj.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Don't forget the 3 day old lettuce and special white sauce, sometime you get free pita bread* too
*Some carts only
OttomanScribe
Member
Nothing new.
I pray that they see the error of their ways, or the sword sees an end to them. I've said it once and I'll say it again, the Uthmaniyya knew how to deal with such schismatics.
Heads, pikes, the walls of Istanbul.
I pray that they see the error of their ways, or the sword sees an end to them. I've said it once and I'll say it again, the Uthmaniyya knew how to deal with such schismatics.
Heads, pikes, the walls of Istanbul.
safa and marwa are part of the hajj ethos. Khadijah RA house is certainly not. You cant destroy the former without invalidating the hajj whereas the latter is not part of your deen
And yes hotels are expensive. That's why the mordenisation is taking place. Not enough hotels and huge demand means expensive rooms. The saudis are investing in billions to make cheap affordable hotels for pilgrims
Schismatics? There is only country where shariah is enforced rigidly and it aint turkey.
Their idiots for destroying their own culture. It sucks because these buildings are part of human history, good or bad, but the Saudis won't even let me visit the city so I can't say I care all that much. I've always hated seeing governments destroy monuments. Seeing how cities like Tokyo, Rio De Janeiro, or Melbourne looked before pisses me off. Especially when nice buildings are replaced by shitty 1960/70s high rises. Oh well...it's all in the name of progress...
I also laughed at the guy saying "but what should they do, there are more and more pilgrims". Yeah because constructing monstrosities to house 5 star hotels at $500 a day is in the interest of most pilgrims that do the Hajj. Good thing they are adding a bunch of shopping centers too. Nothing screams pilgrimage quite like going on a shopping spree between prays. Gotta look good in front of God.
I also laughed at the guy saying "but what should they do, there are more and more pilgrims". Yeah because constructing monstrosities to house 5 star hotels at $500 a day is in the interest of most pilgrims that do the Hajj. Good thing they are adding a bunch of shopping centers too. Nothing screams pilgrimage quite like going on a shopping spree between prays. Gotta look good in front of God.
Today I learned that there is at least one person who thinks the Blue Mosque is ugly. Wat.
?
I was born in India as a Hindu and am now an atheist. Would it be possible to get some of your fine produce without betraying my family further, lo unto seven generations
according to my parents
so what are we discussing here.
the grave of Holy Prophet and his companions will remain in the mosque.
The older mosque are being demolished to make more room for pilgrims not for motels or markets.
yes hey are destroying some historical mosques but they are thinking of the safety of the pilgrims first what is wrong with it ?it is been done before
the grave of Holy Prophet and his companions will remain in the mosque.
The older mosque are being demolished to make more room for pilgrims not for motels or markets.
yes hey are destroying some historical mosques but they are thinking of the safety of the pilgrims first what is wrong with it ?it is been done before
OttomanScribe
Member
I highly doubt this.
That is because Wahabism is taken to be a perjorative term, it would not however mean that the moniker was inaccurate.
It isn't about strictness or zealousness, it is about their neo-Hanbali methodology combined with literalism in aqidah.
This is a non-sequitur. The Saudi regime is a dictatorship, one that hides behind a crude 'Islamic' veil to poorly obscure the fact that it is propped up exclusively by American arms.
I've seen you slander the above pretty liberally, then when questioned on the slander you don't reply.
Like it or not, mainstream Islam has long held the Sacred Mosques, only through titles bestowed by the West has the House of Saud gained control of them. Insha'Allah this is a temporary situation. These Najdis can only be propped up by American dollars for so long.
Hahahaa... you think the Sha'riah is confined to the hadud? When is the Sha'riah only applied to those not with strong ties to the royal family? Let me know when the Saudis actually lift a finger to help their brothers and sisters in the rest of the world, rather than spending the money the khuffar gives them on phallic symbols and paying off the majlis to keep themselves in power.
What Shariah are you talking about? The one that is more driven by wahabi ideology and culture or the one that represents Muslims at large. I don't see a shariah that represents muslims in Saudi Arabia, but a shariah that represents the wahabi and salafi scholars/imams there.
If the Saudis are so pious and good why don't they help solve the Palestinian, Kashmir, Philippines, Chechnya, Myanmar, and Chinese Muslim issues...
If the Saudis are so pious and good why don't they help solve the Palestinian, Kashmir, Philippines, Chechnya, Myanmar, and Chinese Muslim issues...
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Also Hajj is now not a Pilgrimage, it's a fucking Commodity to be used and abused by the rich
There's a reason you wear 2 pieces of white cloth
The man right next to you can be the richest or the poorest man on the planet, but at that time you are equal
Now there are Hajj packages
$7500 per person get you an AC Tent, Buffet Food Line, Special Private Accommodations, VIP Driver, Faster Access, Top Tier Business Class Flight Seats
$5000 You lose some of the benefits
$3000 More benefits lost
THAT SHIT IS NOT EQUAL YOU STUPID FUCKS!, you are going against the same teaching you are fucking following
Now you are taking it up to stupid tier by forcing people to pay $500 to stay in these hotels, which most can't afford
Hajj is a pilgrimage of sacrifice, learning that the person next to you is your equal no matter what, that you are in God's house, worshiping god and nothing else
No consumerism
I can't wait till they start selling I<3 Mecca/Medina shirts
Buy 3 for $20 shirts, licensed out by Adidas
There's a reason you wear 2 pieces of white cloth
The man right next to you can be the richest or the poorest man on the planet, but at that time you are equal
Now there are Hajj packages
$7500 per person get you an AC Tent, Buffet Food Line, Special Private Accommodations, VIP Driver, Faster Access, Top Tier Business Class Flight Seats
$5000 You lose some of the benefits
$3000 More benefits lost
THAT SHIT IS NOT EQUAL YOU STUPID FUCKS!, you are going against the same teaching you are fucking following
Now you are taking it up to stupid tier by forcing people to pay $500 to stay in these hotels, which most can't afford
Hajj is a pilgrimage of sacrifice, learning that the person next to you is your equal no matter what, that you are in God's house, worshiping god and nothing else
No consumerism
I can't wait till they start selling I<3 Mecca/Medina shirts
Buy 3 for $20 shirts, licensed out by Adidas
Don't worry, by the time 2030 rolls around I'm sure there will be at least 2-3 more secular states governing predominantly Muslim populations that were implemented via secular liberal democracies militarily invading.
I bet those population projections don't even account for the numbers of murdered civilians.
"Cheap affordable hotels are the goal here"
victreeb3l
Member
chicken and lamb, i got you my dude.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
My mom wants to do Hajj so bad
She can raise up the money but she wants me to go with her
She considers me as her Wali, so I respect her the utmost
I have legal situation that is over me like a bad fucking cloud, and doesn't help I have shunned my religion
On my Passport it still say Religion: Islam (Muslim)
Hopefully one day my heart might comes back to get my mother's wishes accomplished, but even she sees the monetization and gets pissed off
Well there is a vegetable option my next door neighbor
More lettuce, more rice, and a couple of Falafels (Chick Pea Meatballs, minus the meat)
There's also a Chicken Option
Just ask for Extra White Sauce and Hot Sauce, say GraveRobber sent ya', all the carts know me, trust me I'm an expert!
GraveRobberX (GRX) Special
$7.00
Rice with Lamb
Extra Rice
Extra Meat
Light White Sauce (Up to You)
Light Hot Sauce (Up to You)
Pita Bread sliced into fingerling breadsticks
1 12 oz Soda
=D
She can raise up the money but she wants me to go with her
She considers me as her Wali, so I respect her the utmost
I have legal situation that is over me like a bad fucking cloud, and doesn't help I have shunned my religion
On my Passport it still say Religion: Islam (Muslim)
Hopefully one day my heart might comes back to get my mother's wishes accomplished, but even she sees the monetization and gets pissed off
Well there is a vegetable option my next door neighbor
More lettuce, more rice, and a couple of Falafels (Chick Pea Meatballs, minus the meat)
There's also a Chicken Option
Just ask for Extra White Sauce and Hot Sauce, say GraveRobber sent ya', all the carts know me, trust me I'm an expert!
GraveRobberX (GRX) Special
$7.00
Rice with Lamb
Extra Rice
Extra Meat
Light White Sauce (Up to You)
Light Hot Sauce (Up to You)
Pita Bread sliced into fingerling breadsticks
1 12 oz Soda
=D
Nice. Us non-Muslims have all the pork for ourselves.
I think you should go even if you don't believe in the faith. It's a unique experience.
I think you should go even if you don't believe in the faith. It's a unique experience.
comments in black
Freezie KO
Banned
Seriously, electric cars can't come fast enough...
what is in the white sauce at halal carts anyway ?
Figuratively, right?
OttomanScribe
Member
I understand the difficulties associated with making hajj affordable and safe for as many pilgrims as possible. It is a logistical nightmare.
However the solution they have come up with is garish and offensive. One does not have to turn Makkah into a Christmas tree in order to allow for the rising amount of pilgrims. The presence of garish palaces for the housing of the monarch shows the shallowness of this argument for necessity.
The idea that they are demolishing these sites to make space for pilgrims is a farce. They do it out of the misguided belief that a respect for the heritage of the Muslims constitutes worship.
However the solution they have come up with is garish and offensive. One does not have to turn Makkah into a Christmas tree in order to allow for the rising amount of pilgrims. The presence of garish palaces for the housing of the monarch shows the shallowness of this argument for necessity.
The idea that they are demolishing these sites to make space for pilgrims is a farce. They do it out of the misguided belief that a respect for the heritage of the Muslims constitutes worship.
If you cant afford the hajj then dont sweat it. Its not for everyone. The world has changed. It's not the 1960s anymore. 4 million people. Only 10 percent from each country is allocated a rota. It's not consumerism. It's called economics of scale. It's pretty straightforward. Huge demand plus low supplies equals high prices.
It is something the saudis are trying to combat. And in the grand scheme of things, the safety, wellbeing and the experience of the pilgrims who spend thousands making the journey is more important than some historical site which has ABSOLUTELY NO importance in islam. But carry on. By the way, if you shunned your religion you dont have to worry about the hajj. I feel sorry for your mother though. because it looks like she will never make it to the hajj
Robot Pants
Member
disgonbegud.gif
OttomanScribe
Member
Why don't you just quote and then comment?
What you are describing is second hand information.
Not at all. It is a common critique.
I questioned you in the Islamic thread, replying to your slander there... yet you didn't reply. This isn't a reply.
Nothing like beheading princesses in parking lots to uphold Islam.
Lmao. They are the biggest purchaser of arms in the Middle East, and one of the biggest in the world. Where are there guns pointed? At the enemies of the Ummah? Those who rape and pillage? Or is it at their own populace?
OttomanScribe
Member
Not at all. Their eagerness for the hadud (physical punishment) does not apply to their own monarchy. I only wish that the hadud be applied equally. Their first rebellion was put down in that manner (pikes, heads) by the Ottoman Sultan.
I pray that they swerve from this current path, but if they do not, it is only right that they be held to the standards they set for others.
My mother was invited to a party with one of their 'Emirs' where they shared a lovely glass of cognac. She left though, feeling uncomfortable when the strippers turned up.
victreeb3l
Member
i have no idea, and i kinda never want to know lol
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
But it's so delicious, creamy too =D
Also for the interested:
Mecca Diaries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onvpqqDNiE8&list=PL62265C99F998B754&index=1&feature=plpp_video
Mecca Diaries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onvpqqDNiE8&list=PL62265C99F998B754&index=1&feature=plpp_video
comments in black
TheContact
Member
Wow. The hajj is deadly and needs more space..but razing the tomb...there has to be a better way
I'm down with beef. As a recently (well, Nov. 2008) minted American, I demand the right to eat cows if I so desire!
GraveRobber discount. I'll name-drop real smooth.
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