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[ManaByte]

One of the big problems with the broadband adapter was the support. I literally bought one(I think you could only buy it from Sega) to play Phantasy Star Online so of course the US release had support crippled in that game. (It actually support it but you couldn't configure it. There was some trick I had to do burning a special copy of the web browser that could configure it and that configuration would be used by PSO. Once you configured it then it worked.) Not sure what games actually "truely" supported it.

People don't understand how rare broadband was even when that was released (2001 in the US). In the SF bay area (where SOA was located) the best most normal people could get was really shitty DSL through the phone company that would go out every time it rained. Stuff like cable internet was extremely rare.

 

[SEGAvangelist]

SEGA didn't deserve it.

 

[dave_d]

People don't understand how rare broadband was even when that was released (2001 in the US). In the SF bay area (where SOA was located) the best most normal people could get was really shitty DSL through the phone company that would go out every time it rained. Stuff like cable internet was extremely rare.

That true but the idea that they took the Japanese version of PSO which had the ability to configure things to use the BBA then turned around in the US version and locked out those menu settings out is one of those times of Sega being Sega.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

I was gonna bash OP on the thread title, but reading his post makes a bit more sense yes.

Tho there is one major difference, the Dreamcast and Sega studios at that time were absolutely killing it in terms of quality releases, whereas Xbox can't manage their developers for shit.

True

It’s a shame most people didn’t get to experience NiGHTS, Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Sega Rally, Virtua Fighter 2, Virtua Cop 2 etc.

Though in the UK those were all 1996 games, by the end of 1997 even I was disenfranchised with Sega’s output that year and got a PlayStation.

 

[cireza]

It's really very difficult to look at Sonic X-treme and not arrive at the conclusion that company politics destroyed this games development.

Except that Sonic X-treme eventually had its own engine. It still wasn't very convincing, but as I explained before, Sonic in 3D as we expected it was not feasible on this generation of consoles.

 

[cireza]

It's well documented why Dreamcast failed and Sega went under. No where in this thread do I see any evidence presented that Microsoft is running out of money the way Sega of Japan was when Sega exited the console business.

So you don't remember when SEGA bought the equivalent of Activision Blizzard ?

I don't either.

 

[skyfinch]

But Xbox doesn't have Safari Hunt.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Except that Sonic X-treme eventually had its own engine. It still wasn't very convincing, but as I explained before, Sonic in 3D as we expected it was not feasible on this generation of consoles.

Could this be why Yuji Naka decided to make NiGHTS and Burning Rangers instead?

People point to that Sonic World 3D bit on Sonic Jam, but a Sonic game based on VDP2 flat floors wouldn’t have felt right, Sonic is all about slopes, loops and physics.

Regardless of the above, Saturn not having a proper Sonic game is one of the top 5 reasons it failed.

And in the age of Mario 64, Crash Bandicoot, Banjo and Spyro a 2D Sonic wouldn’t have cut it.

 

[ManaByte]

Could this be why Yuji Naka decided to make NiGHTS and Burning Rangers instead?

NiGHTS was a direct response to the analog controls in SM64.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

NiGHTS was a direct response to the analog controls in SM64.

I love NiGHTS, as much for the art style, vibe and music, but people rejected it, it wasn’t even one of the top 10 best selling Saturn games was it?

Most people didn’t get it.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Depends where you’re from.

It was quite popular in the UK and had a decent lifespan with many of ports of big MegaDrive games being released.

My understanding is that it flopped in the USA and was withdrawn from the market fairly early on.

Now, Brazil on the other hand…

In the U.S. is was an enormous flop. Few retailers bothered to sell it.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

In the U.S. is was an enormous flop. Few retailers bothered to sell it.

UK catalogue in 1994, was still going strong here while Saturn was launching in Japan

I believe it also outsold the NES

 

[SmokedMeat]

UK catalogue in 1994, was still going strong here while Saturn was launching in Japan

I believe it also outsold the NES

That’s wild. What games were driving people to pick up the Master System? Nintendo had practically every big game and publisher locked down.

 

[yurqqa]

If we compare Dreamcast in 2000 to Xbox in 2024 then no, they’re not…

Now compare 4th year of PS2 and 4th year of PS5.

 

[XXL]

Sort of related.

They are 100% going 3rd party imo.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

That’s wild. What games were driving people to pick up the Master System? Nintendo had practically every big game and publisher locked down.

We got Streets of Rage, Ninja Gaiden and a series of Sonic games for a start.

It coexisted with the MegaDrive and got many ports.

Meanwhile Nintendo just delayed everything and treated the market as an afterthought.

 

[SmokedMeat]

We got Streets of Rage, Ninja Gaiden and a series of Sonic games for a start.

Meanwhile Nintendo just delayed everything and treated the market as an afterthought.

Streets of Rage and Sonic started on Genesis/MD. So Master System hung on and sales improved after the Mega Drive released? Is that accurate?

Ninja Gaiden it appears only hit the UK. I’m curious to check the port out and see how it compared. I know Master System was more powerful than NES.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Streets of Rage and Sonic started on Genesis/MD. So Master System hung on and sales improved after the Mega Drive released? Is that accurate?

Ninja Gaiden it appears only hit the UK. I’m curious to check the port out and see how it compared. I know Master System was more powerful than NES.

Not really, sales started to dip after the MegaDrive came out, but usually when a big MegaDrive game came out you could guarantee a Master System port wouldn’t be far behind.

Made sense as developers could make Master System games that could run on GameGear with only a few tweaks.

I don’t think Americans here realise how different gaming is outside their country.

N64 was a bit of flop here too, launched too late. Late 90s gaming was in the UK was pretty much entirely PlayStation with a bit of PC.

 

[simpatico]

But Dreamcast was awesome and magic. Xbox Series is just disappointing and sad. Great hardware, but every single games MS studios secured for it just vastly underperformed expectations. In sales and quality. In some ways MS did everything right but just lost every roll of chance this gen. Crazy shit.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Not really, sales started to dip after the MegaDrive came out, but usually when a big MegaDrive game came out you could guarantee a Master System port wouldn’t be far behind.

Made sense as developers could make Master System games that could run on GameGear with only a few tweaks.

I don’t think Americans here realise how different gaming is outside their country.

N64 was a bit of flop here too, launched too late.

It’s very interesting to hear, because the magazines rarely ever talked about that sort of thing. If the success or failure of a console was brought up, it was usually in regard to how it fared in Japan.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

It’s very interesting to hear, because the magazines rarely ever talked about that sort of thing. If the success or failure of a console was brought up, it was usually in regard to how it fared in Japan.

Yeah that’s strange, it outsold the…

Gamecube
NES
SNES
Dreamcast
Saturn

…over here, but Sega really did put effort into the market in the early 90s. That all went to shit with the Saturn mind.

Saturn and Dreamcast had worse marketshare in Europe than the US, whatever fuck ups Sega made with those consoles in the US, they made even more over here.

 

[BlackTron]

Except that Sonic X-treme eventually had its own engine. It still wasn't very convincing, but as I explained before, Sonic in 3D as we expected it was not feasible on this generation of consoles.

Saying that Xtreme eventually had its own engine doesn't do anything to refute anything I said.

Sonic Adventure was certainly impossible on that generation but it doesn't mean any 3D Sonic wasn't. It probably would have had a smaller emphasis on speed than Adventure, like Sonic 1.

What I'm trying to say is that it's frivolously hand washing of Sega's failure to produce a Sonic for this generation to say it simply couldn't be done. Same brand of shameless excuses made for Xbox.

 

[SHA]

The trajectory of both Xbox and Sega consoles and their decline has a lot of striking similarities the more I think about it.

While Microsoft as a whole aren’t deep in the red as per Sega in 2000/2001 parallels between the Xbox division and Sega that are worth discussing, especially when it comes to their generation transitions and market trajectory.

Xbox = Master System
Debut console releases way after the established market leader (PS2/NES), is much more advanced graphically but ultimately only manages to gain success in a single market (America for Xbox, Europe for Master System).

Xbox 360 = MegaDrive
Second console launches well ahead of competition (PS3/SNES) with success being more global compared to a single territory. This is the golden age in terms of sales, brand mass awareness and overall positivity. Eventually the established competitor’s console sales overtake it, but they’re more than in the race having stolen marketshare. However towards the end of the generation there’s a focus on hardware add-ons (Kinect, MegaCD, 32X) which begins to annoy the fanbase and results in a lack of focus.

Xbox One = Saturn
A series of boneheaded decisions and lack of understanding of the consumer base culminate in a disasterous E3 reveal. The console launches at a way higher price than the competition (PS4/PS1) with multiplatform games running much worse resulting in a lot of marketshare being lost. To compensate, there’s a shift towards releasing the biggest games on PC. Only manages to do well in a single market (America for XBO, Japan for Saturn)

Xbox Series = Dreamcast
Much smarter decisions are made in the development of the console meaning that graphically the machine competes well with the rival (PS5/PS2). However their competitor is doing well and most people see no need to switch, especially when backwards compatibility is being offered. There’s also a HUGE focus on online that doesn’t pan out as well as expected (GamePass = SegaNet). Eventually, games start to be released on competitor’s consoles.

Halo = Sonic
The first 3 or 4 games are a huge critical and commercial success becoming the face of the entire brand. Following this the franchise is handed to another developer (343 Industries and Traveller’s Tales) who manage to make some decent games but are nowhere near in terms of critical acclaim and success of the first 4 games.

Console sales = Number of users

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

You aren't wrong.

There are some caveats, of course. ATM saying Xbox Series is equivalent to Dreamcast is insulting to Dreamcast from a software creativity POV; SEGA were really firing off all cylinders with 1P creative juices during Dreamcast, even if they took longer to get to some IP than they should've (VF4 and PD Orta should've been Dreamcast games, for example). In comparison, MS have had a lot of mid-level 1P content this gen between Halo Infinite (yeah yeah, great gunplay but who cares? Not many going by sales and player counts), Forza Motorsport (a complete trainwreck), Hellblade 2 (somehow worst than & regressed vs its predecessor), Starfield (didn't live up to even the more reasonable hype), RedFall (lol), Bleeding Edge (loooool), and games like Everwild still MIA (and likely dead).

Also, there's the fact Xbox has that Microsoft cushion to fall back on. IMO if it weren't for Microsoft owning them, they wouldn't have been able to buy either ABK or even Zenimax. Xbox also benefited from a pandemic early this gen; Dreamcast had no such "luck". So if it weren't for those two things, Xbox Series would've ceased production by late 2021/early 2022, and Xbox as a hardware platform would've either shut down or been sold to some dental company.

Saying that Xtreme eventually had its own engine doesn't do anything to refute anything I said.

Sonic Adventure was certainly impossible on that generation but it doesn't mean any 3D Sonic wasn't. It probably would have had a smaller emphasis on speed than Adventure, like Sonic 1.

What I'm trying to say is that it's frivolously hand washing of Sega's failure to produce a Sonic for this generation to say it simply couldn't be done. Same brand of shameless excuses made for Xbox.

The 3D areas of Sonic Jam prove that 3D Sonic could've been done and, even if slower than the 2D versions, would've been perfectly acceptable by gamers at the time. 3D Mario wasn't as fast as SMB3 for example (once you're talking peak speed), but was more than fine. Even if Sonic sold itself on speed more than Mario, everyone back then knew speed was just part of the appeal with the 2D games.

There being no 3D Sonic (or even a 2.5D Sonic ala Clockwork Knight) on Saturn is 100% down to SEGA's incompetence that gen, mainly because SOJ and SOA were at each other's throats. Anyone saying otherwise is just looking to pass along the blame. But with X-Treme, at least Yuji Naka can kind of be blamed since he told the X-Treme team to stop using his engine or else he'd leave SEGA. They got set back so far with no delay for the game, and IIRC at least two of them ended up in a coma. That's how bad the crunch got for X-Treme before it was cancelled.

 

[SHA]

Consoles sales topic is old, you can't deny it's age.

 

[Syphon Filter]

The trajectory of both Xbox and Sega consoles and their decline has a lot of striking similarities the more I think about it.

While Microsoft as a whole aren’t deep in the red as per Sega in 2000/2001 parallels between the Xbox division and Sega that are worth discussing, especially when it comes to their generation transitions and market trajectory.

Xbox = Master System
Debut console releases way after the established market leader (PS2/NES), is much more advanced graphically but ultimately only manages to gain success in a single market (America for Xbox, Europe for Master System).

Xbox 360 = MegaDrive
Second console launches well ahead of competition (PS3/SNES) with success being more global compared to a single territory. This is the golden age in terms of sales, brand mass awareness and overall positivity. Eventually the established competitor’s console sales overtake it, but they’re more than in the race having stolen marketshare. However towards the end of the generation there’s a focus on hardware add-ons (Kinect, MegaCD, 32X) which begins to annoy the fanbase and results in a lack of focus.

Xbox One = Saturn
A series of boneheaded decisions and lack of understanding of the consumer base culminate in a disasterous E3 reveal. The console launches at a way higher price than the competition (PS4/PS1) with multiplatform games running much worse resulting in a lot of marketshare being lost. To compensate, there’s a shift towards releasing the biggest games on PC. Only manages to do well in a single market (America for XBO, Japan for Saturn)

Xbox Series = Dreamcast
Much smarter decisions are made in the development of the console meaning that graphically the machine competes well with the rival (PS5/PS2). However their competitor is doing well and most people see no need to switch, especially when backwards compatibility is being offered. There’s also a HUGE focus on online that doesn’t pan out as well as expected (GamePass = SegaNet). Eventually, games start to be released on competitor’s consoles.

Halo = Sonic
The first 3 or 4 games are a huge critical and commercial success becoming the face of the entire brand. Following this the franchise is handed to another developer (343 Industries and Traveller’s Tales) who manage to make some decent games but are nowhere near in terms of critical acclaim and success of the first 4 games.

decent might be givinjg 343 too much credit, they never made a good game ever. And no I dont think its the same as sega, this is a very different time these days with consoles.

 

[Sooner]

What a dumb thread....
xbox one and the xbox series consoles did so much better in every way and last much longer than their "mirrored" sega counterparts. End of thread. Goodbye.

Yet, both lost their company magnitudes more money trying to make them work.

The only difference is, Microsoft could afford those losses longer. Sadly, for the Xbox division, it seems they finally can no longer justify the losses.

 

[cireza]

What I'm trying to say is that it's frivolously hand washing of Sega's failure to produce a Sonic for this generation to say it simply couldn't be done

Except that this is what I believe is true, and I can't think of a single game technically showcasing the opposite on that gen. You are free to think otherwise.

Same brand of shameless excuses made for Xbox.

I have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Sooner]

Sega lost a lot of 3rd party support, MS was and still is getting major 3rd party games. Xbox one and the series consoles aren't failures. They are fine.

Doing so fine a lot of third-party publishers aren't porting their games to Xbox at all, leaving Microsoft asking them why.

Doing so fine that Microsoft higher-ups FORCED the Xbox division to release their first-party games to be released on PS5 in order to sell enough copies.

ThisIsFine.gif

 

[AngelMuffin]

 

[BlackTron]

Except that this is what I believe is true, and I can't think of a single game technically showcasing the opposite on that gen.

Uh Sonic Jam's menu screen?

 

[Majormaxxx]

The trajectory of both Xbox and Sega consoles and their decline has a lot of striking similarities the more I think about it.

While Microsoft as a whole aren’t deep in the red as per Sega in 2000/2001 parallels between the Xbox division and Sega that are worth discussing, especially when it comes to their generation transitions and market trajectory.

Xbox = Master System
Debut console releases way after the established market leader (PS2/NES), is much more advanced graphically but ultimately only manages to gain success in a single market (America for Xbox, Europe for Master System).

Xbox 360 = MegaDrive
Second console launches well ahead of competition (PS3/SNES) with success being more global compared to a single territory. This is the golden age in terms of sales, brand mass awareness and overall positivity. Eventually the established competitor’s console sales overtake it, but they’re more than in the race having stolen marketshare. However towards the end of the generation there’s a focus on hardware add-ons (Kinect, MegaCD, 32X) which begins to annoy the fanbase and results in a lack of focus.

Xbox One = Saturn
A series of boneheaded decisions and lack of understanding of the consumer base culminate in a disasterous E3 reveal. The console launches at a way higher price than the competition (PS4/PS1) with multiplatform games running much worse resulting in a lot of marketshare being lost. To compensate, there’s a shift towards releasing the biggest games on PC. Only manages to do well in a single market (America for XBO, Japan for Saturn)

Xbox Series = Dreamcast
Much smarter decisions are made in the development of the console meaning that graphically the machine competes well with the rival (PS5/PS2). However their competitor is doing well and most people see no need to switch, especially when backwards compatibility is being offered. There’s also a HUGE focus on online that doesn’t pan out as well as expected (GamePass = SegaNet). Eventually, games start to be released on competitor’s consoles.

Halo = Sonic
The first 3 or 4 games are a huge critical and commercial success becoming the face of the entire brand. Following this the franchise is handed to another developer (343 Industries and Traveller’s Tales) who manage to make some decent games but are nowhere near in terms of critical acclaim and success of the first 4 games.

 

[cireza]

Uh Sonic Jam's menu screen?

Nobody would have been fine with the short demo that was the Sonic World (and not the menu screen) as a full game. The potential simply wasn't there.

Sonic is all about heights and slopes, this demo is a small space with a flat VDP2 ground. This is technically good enough for something like Mario, but not for Sonic.

 

[Geometric-Crusher]

If you look at the timeline for Xbox, it's clear where things are going.

2020
Aug '20 - Halo Infinite delayed to 2021, XBS to launch without a major IP

2021
Dec' 21 - Halo Infinite launches feature incomplete and fails to move the needle

2022
Sep '22 - Bonnie Ross out at 343

2023
May '23 - Redfall releases and is a complete disaster
May '23 - Phil Spencer says Microsoft isn't going to out-console Sony
Aug '23 - Baldur's Gate 3 gets delayed on Xbox due to the Series S
Sep '23 - Starfield releases and fails to move the needle
Oct '23 - Forza Motorsport bombs

2024
Jan '24 - Microsoft announces 1900 layoffs in its gaming division
Feb '24 - Microsoft announces 4 Xbox games are moving to PS5
Feb '24 - Toys for Bob announces they're going independent
Mar '24 - Reports that Xbox is flat-lining in Europe
May '24 - Microsoft closes Tango Gameworks and Arkane Austin
Jun '24 - Xbox announces "No Console Needed" campaign with Amazon Firestick, they also announce 2TB XSX priced for 600 dollars in a clear sign they are no longer subsidizing hardware
Jun '24 - Black Myth Wukong delayed on Xbox, potentially never coming out
Aug '24 - Avowed delayed to 2025
Aug '24 - Indiana Jones announced for PS5 ahead of XBS launch, releasing 5 months after XBS launch
Sep '24 - Xbox announces additional layoffs (650 employees)
Oct '24 - 343i rebrands to Halo Studios announcing that they've moved Halo to Unreal Engine, all but guaranteeing it will be on PS5

Microsoft signals that it is becoming a third party, especially if the Xbox 2026 is truly a pre-manufactured PC
Let's compare it to Sega's recent timeline.

2020 Sega reveals Sega Shiro its new mascot, the correlation with Segata Sunshiro is evident. Sega Shiro means Know Sega.
2021 May. Sega announced the Super Game initiative, a project worth almost 1 billion dollars that's a ton of money.
2021 Sega announces partnership with M$ on Azure servers
2022 Sonic Frontiers becomes the best-selling 3D Sonic game since Heroes.
2023 Sega cancelled Hyenas and absorbs a loss of $100 million.
2023 Sega announces 5 games at TGA with no specified platforms.
2024 Rumors that Sega registered games from the Genesis era for eventual reboots as well as the production of a new Virtua Fighter
2024 TGA hardware reveal? Only the devil knows.

Sega has been making money with simple games but they know, everyone knows, that they have strong IPs like Alien Isolation and Bayonetta. Where is Alien Isolation 2? Alien isolation turned 10 years old, would Sega be saving these games to use in a continuous flow of releases? Only time will tell.

 

[RAIDEN1]

The key difference is, Xbox has a deeper financial pool than Sega had in 2000/2001, Sega is lucky to be alive today otherwise they could have easily have ended up like 3DO, Commodore, etc....

 

[BlackTron]

Nobody would have been fine with the short demo that was the Sonic World (and not the menu screen) as a full game. The potential simply wasn't there.

Sonic is all about heights and slopes, this demo is a small space with a flat VDP2 ground. This technically good enough for something like Mario, but not for Sonic.

I mean you say "nobody" but having played it myself I wished there was more of it and there's another person in this very thread calling the Sonic World proof they could have done something which automatically makes this nobody thing factually incorrect.

It's hilarious to watch someone try and make excuses for Sega not to put a god damned Sonic game on MD's successor. I used to think I had the biggest Sega/Sonic stanning complex in the universe but holy shit. They failed at this for the same reason they failed at hardware, hubris and pride of dumb ass leadership.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

"Saturn is not our future.".

Still can't believe they uttered those words during E3 '97. Pretty much killed any Saturn momentum (regardless how much) in the West right then and there. This is when many 3P (mostly Western) started cancelling Saturn projects, converting them to PS-only, PS1/N64 (in some cases), or in some other cases pushing Saturn versions to the Dreamcast.

Also left SEGA without any retail presence for over a year in the West, effectively. All of 1998 with only 4 games (all in low print runs), nothing for '99 until Dreamcast later that year. Little to no advertising until Dreamcast was ready. It was a ghost town if you were a SEGA fan outside of Japan.

 

[BlackTron]

Don't forget Game Gear (though it kinda got some japanese following) couldn't do anything against the Game Boy. It just didn't stood a chance.

I was lucky enough to have a Game Gear as a kid, it seemed like a Porsche compared to the Game Boy, and at that time GG games had a good amount of shelf space, so my perception was that Sega was really fighting Nintendo and actually doing something, such a blissfully naive time.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

To be fair, those exclusivity agreements are also being lost with Sony due to the bloated development costs and lack of ROI and not meeting basic sales goals even on the PS5. Hence why Square is releasing their titles multiplatform. For example FF7 Rebirth has hit a grand total of 2 million in sales, with the PS5 having a total of 60 million units sold meaning they penetrated roughly 3% of the overall owner base of that console on that one game.

Silent Hill 2, Wukong say otherwise

Square has not given any official numbers on Rebirth, it’s certainly over 2 Million. But if they think Xbox is going to dramatically change their sales they are delusional

 

[EverydayBeast]

When Xbox decides to quit consoles it will touch peoples souls, their legacy, yes we’re getting sega vibes.

 

[REDRZA MWS]

The trajectory of both Xbox and Sega consoles and their decline has a lot of striking similarities the more I think about it.

While Microsoft as a whole aren’t deep in the red as per Sega in 2000/2001 parallels between the Xbox division and Sega that are worth discussing, especially when it comes to their generation transitions and market trajectory.

Xbox = Master System
Debut console releases way after the established market leader (PS2/NES), is much more advanced graphically but ultimately only manages to gain success in a single market (America for Xbox, Europe for Master System).

Xbox 360 = MegaDrive
Second console launches well ahead of competition (PS3/SNES) with success being more global compared to a single territory. This is the golden age in terms of sales, brand mass awareness and overall positivity. Eventually the established competitor’s console sales overtake it, but they’re more than in the race having stolen marketshare. However towards the end of the generation there’s a focus on hardware add-ons (Kinect, MegaCD, 32X) which begins to annoy the fanbase and results in a lack of focus.

Xbox One = Saturn
A series of boneheaded decisions and lack of understanding of the consumer base culminate in a disasterous E3 reveal. The console launches at a way higher price than the competition (PS4/PS1) with multiplatform games running much worse resulting in a lot of marketshare being lost. To compensate, there’s a shift towards releasing the biggest games on PC. Only manages to do well in a single market (America for XBO, Japan for Saturn)

Xbox Series = Dreamcast
Much smarter decisions are made in the development of the console meaning that graphically the machine competes well with the rival (PS5/PS2). However their competitor is doing well and most people see no need to switch, especially when backwards compatibility is being offered. There’s also a HUGE focus on online that doesn’t pan out as well as expected (GamePass = SegaNet). Eventually, games start to be released on competitor’s consoles.

Halo = Sonic
The first 3 or 4 games are a huge critical and commercial success becoming the face of the entire brand. Following this the franchise is handed to another developer (343 Industries and Traveller’s Tales) who manage to make some decent games but are nowhere near in terms of critical acclaim and success of the first 4 games.

Difference is MS has the largest install base of combined with windows PC’s and subscriptions and digital sales. New Xbox’ is IS MS giving gamers choices and options.

MS is in the business to make profit, not outsell 500 plastic boxes.

My 4090 is screaming for Gears 6

 

[Rentahamster]

Today isn't Wednesday

 

[Parazels]

I love NiGHTS, as much for the art style, vibe and music, but people rejected it, it wasn’t even one of the top 10 best selling Saturn games was it?

Most people didn’t get it.

To be honest I don't understand either, why Nights is so popular among retro fans. To me it doesn't look better than Pandemonium or Klonoa.

 

[NeoIkaruGAF]

I think you guys are taking OP too literally, The Series X is obviously not the same as the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast had games lol.

Nonsense. Game Pass alone may have cycled more games than were available in the entire Dreamcast library at this point.
XBox has all the relevant third party support, something the Dreamcast did not.

I agree with your post overall, however the Sonic situation is not something SEGA wished for and certainly not them being pretentious or whatever. They were trying to get Sonic on Saturn.

The first 3D consoles simply did not have it in them to scroll 3D engines fast enough to enable an easy transition to 3D. Even to this day, 3D Sonic still relies on custom built engines exactly because of this technical challenge (and the Hedgehog Engine is fantastic by the way, they are absolute wizards).

Back then, it was simply way too challenging. With the huge success of Sonic on MegaDrive, you can be sure that SEGA wanted by all means to have Sonic on Saturn. The technology simply wasn't there for a proper move to 3D. You don't have full 3D platformers with elaborated physics and very fast scrolling on that generation of consoles.

It's a bit hard for me to believe that Sega cared so much to move Sonic to actual full 3D at the time, when the Saturn wasn't the best hardware for that and 2.5D would have been a good compromise to continue the classic Sonic experience. And of course, they may have continued the series in 2D. I'm not sure about it, but I guess they never had something like Sony America's "2D is shit and we don't want it on our new console" diktat. They didn't need to make a Mario 64-like full open world type of game.

 

[ForAcademicPurposes]

sony killed sega
sony killed xbox

 

[RAIDEN1]

I mean you say "nobody" but having played it myself I wished there was more of it and there's another person in this very thread calling the Sonic World proof they could have done something which automatically makes this nobody thing factually incorrect.

It's hilarious to watch someone try and make excuses for Sega not to put a god damned Sonic game on MD's successor. I used to think I had the biggest Sega/Sonic stanning complex in the universe but holy shit. They failed at this for the same reason they failed at hardware, hubris and pride of dumb ass leadership.

The weird thing is Sega didn't have any issue with delivering a Sonic game for the Sega CD and 32x (albeit the spin off Chaotix) yet with the Sega Saturn they struggled badly...

 

[RetroGamingUK]

"Saturn is not our future.".

Still can't believe they uttered those words during E3 '97. Pretty much killed any Saturn momentum (regardless how much) in the West right then and there. This is when many 3P (mostly Western) started cancelling Saturn projects, converting them to PS-only, PS1/N64 (in some cases), or in some other cases pushing Saturn versions to the Dreamcast.

Also left SEGA without any retail presence for over a year in the West, effectively. All of 1998 with only 4 games (all in low print runs), nothing for '99 until Dreamcast later that year. Little to no advertising until Dreamcast was ready. It was a ghost town if you were a SEGA fan outside of Japan.

Yeah reading that Tomb Raider II would be PlayStation console exclusive and then THAT just killed my interest in the Saturn outright.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

To be honest I don't understand either, why Nights is so popular among retro fans. To me it doesn't look better than Pandemonium or Klonoa.

Early screenshots made it look like a 3D platformer with 3D flight.

The actual game played more like Ecco the dolphin with score attacks instead of exploration and the 3D human traversal was a fat load of nothing.

Was still a good game though, killer soundtrack and vibe.

 

[nani17]

Dreamcast 2 is just around the corner.

 

[cireza]

I mean you say "nobody" but having played it myself I wished there was more of it and there's another person in this very thread calling the Sonic World proof they could have done something which automatically makes this nobody thing factually incorrect.

It's hilarious to watch someone try and make excuses for Sega not to put a god damned Sonic game on MD's successor. I used to think I had the biggest Sega/Sonic stanning complex in the universe but holy shit. They failed at this for the same reason they failed at hardware, hubris and pride of dumb ass leadership.

I don't know how much you are knowledgeable in these old consoles and hardware, but as far as I am concerned I am a video-game developer and I personally don't think that the Saturn hardware and the skills/technology known to man back then in 95-97 would have lead to a satisfactory implementation of Sonic in 3D on Saturn. This is also a reason why they pushed with Dreamcast so fast. And I can yell you this without being a disrespectful asshole, unlike you.

It's a bit hard for me to believe that Sega cared so much to move Sonic to actual full 3D at the time, when the Saturn wasn't the best hardware for that and 2.5D would have been a good compromise to continue the classic Sonic experience. And of course, they may have continued the series in 2D. I'm not sure about it, but I guess they never had something like Sony America's "2D is shit and we don't want it on our new console" diktat. They didn't need to make a Mario 64-like full open world type of game.

You couldn't make 2D games anymore because Sony and Nintendo were putting all their money and marketing in 3D games, because both their hardware choices were targeted at 3D only, making them awful consoles for 2D. So of course it was going to be "3D is great 2D sucks", and since they were investing a ton to push this narrative, 2D was pretty much set to die. Saturn has a complicated hardware because SEGA made the choice to properly support both 2D and 3D in hardware.