Support NeoGAF

[mdkirby]

Interesting take, and feels about right, I also remember all those events

Doesn’t really matter, they’ll still be a massive publisher, just as SEGA are still a big publisher. The hardware itself is somewhat irrelevant.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

The Dreamcast had no EA sports titles like FIFA and madden, That was a big factor in the death of the Dreamcast from what I remember. Xbox are just killing themselves with stupid decisions.

Sega made so many stupid decisions…

- Infighting between Japan and America leading to 32X

- Not focusing enough on 3D when designing the Saturn

- Releasing Saturn early in the west pissing off retailers and third party developers

- Not having Saturn dev software (AM2’s SGL libraries) ready for developers until late 1995

- Releasing Dreamcast early with next to no software in Japan

- Selling Dreamcast consoles at a big loss totally oblivious to to it being one of the easiest consoles of all time to pirate for

- Thinking people would flock to laggy online gaming with a 33k modem rather than waiting for broadband

Throughout this they never stopped churning out great games, but as a platform holder they continually fucked up from 1994-2001

 

[BlackTron]

Both Microsoft and Sega had/have horrifically bad management that led to soaking up so much money they each had to look at being a third party publisher instead. Microsoft though had too much cash to fail and needed to invent their own final nail in the coffin not by spending too much on failed gaming ideas but by buying too many publishers.

Microsoft definitely exhibits some of Sega's DNA even if the parallel's aren't 1:1. Like their propensity for spamming too much hardware. One X first and then S/X is a disjointed mess that created problems. Maybe not as bad as CD/32x/Saturn, but it's there.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Not really a fair comparison though, the gaming industry was much smaller back then.....but Sega I would argue had a lot more interesting and exciting exclusives they brought to the table, they didn't have the warchest that Microsoft has to keep the failure going.

What huge franchises did Sega bring to the market outside of sonic? Games that are still around today from the master system days?

We just forgetting Halo and gears?

 

[Komatsu]

Europe wasn’t even the Master System’s best market.

And it’s particularly hilarious to compare SEGA, a company that struggled with cash flow since David Rosen imported arcade cabinets to entertain GIs to… Microsoft, one of the world’s wealthiest corporations, sitting on top of enough cash to buy half of NIKKEI outright.

 

[Saturn Dragon]

Don't forget Game Gear (though it kinda got some japanese following) couldn't do anything against the Game Boy. It just didn't stood a chance.

Then Sega of america having their own portable Megadrive, The Sega Nomad.

Things like Mega CD having countless models (Cdx-multimega, x'eye-wondermega and so on).

I don't know. Sega was on mushrooms back then (npi)
By 1995 there was Megadrive getting its latest releases, while Mega CD and 32x being killed, Sega Saturn just launched, Game Gear still having some games, and there was probably some european/brazilian releases for the Master System!

Am I forgetting something?

At least they were always (and will always be) the arcade kings.

 

[Begleiter]

What huge franchises did Sega bring to the market outside of sonic? Games that are still around today from the master system days?

We just forgetting Halo and gears?

Are you looking for another parallel here? Halo and Gears sell well but are in clear decline - evoking post-Dreamcast Sonic.

At the time Sega were in the console business they had more quality exclusives across a wider range of genres than Microsoft does now.

 

[Madserb2023]

I think you guys are taking OP too literally, The Series X is obviously not the same as the Dreamcast. The Dreamcast had games lol. Saying something is similar to something doesn't mean it is that thing. However the trajectory is quite similar including the reliances on gimmicks and with their second machine being the most successful. The Series X is actually a solid machines but as with the Saturn, that was not the generation to lose so many gamers.

 

[xrnzaaas]

There are similarities, but Microsoft is much bigger than Sega was when they launched their last console. They could easily introduce another generation of Xbox consoles without having to worry that it may bankrupt the whole company.

 

[BlackTron]

There are similarities, but Microsoft is much bigger than Sega was when they launched their last console. They could easily introduce another generation of Xbox consoles without having to worry that it may bankrupt the whole company.

Right, Sega had to become a publisher because they ran out of money. Microsoft had to because the CEO finally asked them to stop taking the rest of the company's money, which is nigh infinite and would never run out.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Regarding the shift to 3rd party, I remember in magazines and on the internet the mounting rumours of Sega porting games to other consoles increasing each month.

I was loving my Dreamcast in 2000, but all the talk did kinda take the shine off thing.

In fact it was this post that inspired this thread…

 

[Saturn Dragon]

What huge franchises did Sega bring to the market outside of sonic? Games that are still around today from the master system days?

We just forgetting Halo and gears?

Are you looking for another parallel here? Halo and Gears sell well but are in clear decline - evoking post-Dreamcast Sonic.

At the time Sega were in the console business they had more quality exclusives across a wider range of genres than Microsoft does now.

Comparison doesn't really make sense.
Industry was in diapers back in the 80s, and kinda started up and running in the 90s.

Still, Sega was going full on crazy with the arcades, it was all about ultra high tech expensive fast paced arcade games.
While in 1985 Nintendo was doing great with the Famicom-Nes, Sega had something like OUTRUN that was like alien technology on the arcades.

And it was releasing top arcade games with hardware way way ahead of time every single year.
Same in the 90s with the Sega Model boards. Things like Daytona in 1993?

Perhaps they didn't define anything on the console market, and were always second or third place. But one thing is sure: they risk it all in the arcades, theirs were TOP OF THE TOP.

Was the risk worth it? Probably not but the games were fun asf.

 

[cireza]

Sega pretty much completely dropped Sonic in the Saturn era - but they thought it could be replaced by fucking Nights, that's how much the cult of personality ruined Sega.

I agree with your post overall, however the Sonic situation is not something SEGA wished for and certainly not them being pretentious or whatever. They were trying to get Sonic on Saturn.

The first 3D consoles simply did not have it in them to scroll 3D engines fast enough to enable an easy transition to 3D. Even to this day, 3D Sonic still relies on custom built engines exactly because of this technical challenge (and the Hedgehog Engine is fantastic by the way, they are absolute wizards).

Back then, it was simply way too challenging. With the huge success of Sonic on MegaDrive, you can be sure that SEGA wanted by all means to have Sonic on Saturn. The technology simply wasn't there for a proper move to 3D. You don't have full 3D platformers with elaborated physics and very fast scrolling on that generation of consoles.

The comparison of OG Xbox with PCE is on point. The Master System after all was a budget offering and was mainly sold exactly during the same time period as the MegaDrive. If anything, it could be compared to Series S, MegaDrive being the Series X.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Comparison doesn't really make sense.
Industry was in diapers back in the 80s, and kinda started up and running in the 90s.

Still, Sega was going full on crazy with the arcades, it was all about ultra high tech expensive fast paced arcade games.
While in 1985 Nintendo was doing great with the Famicom-Nes, Sega had something like OUTRUN that was like alien technology on the arcades.

And it was releasing top arcade games with hardware way way ahead of time every single year.
Same in the 90s with the Sega Model boards. Things like Daytona in 1993?

Perhaps they didn't define anything on the console market, and were always second or third place. But one thing is sure: they risk it all in the arcades, theirs were TOP OF THE TOP.

Was the risk worth it? Probably not but the games were fun asf.

I completely agree. Going to the arcades and playing Daytona, virtua fighter etc was an amazing experience. I was more of a Nintendo fan for home stuff but I still loved my master system and dreamcast. I just don't think anything landed with the phenomena of halo and gears in the console space.

Sure you can say those franchises are in decline from their absolute peak but what franchise from Sony or MS is seeing growth in sequels now? Doesn't seem like any are.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Me in mid 2000 on the CVG forums when the rumours started spreading.

At the time I was absolutely loving my Dreamcast and showing off games like Soul Calibur and Code Veronica to my PlayStation owning friends and trying to convince them to switch.

All the while Sega had already made a deal with Acclaim to publish their “exclusives” on PS2.

I went through all the stages of grief in late 2000 before Sega finally confirmed what everyone knew in Jan 2021.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

The Dreamcast had no EA sports titles like FIFA and madden, That was a big factor in the death of the Dreamcast from what I remember. Xbox are just killing themselves with stupid decisions.

It was a factor, but it wasn't a massive factor.

FIFA wasn't nearly as big back then and while it didn't have Madden it had NFL 2K and they also had NBA 2K. Not as big as their EA counterparts but still popular.

What they didn't have was Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy, Tekken, and Gran Turismo.

The Dreamcast barely lasted a year.

It launched fall of 99 and was discontinued in March 2001.

Crazy how quickly things happened in gaming back then. Whereas the writing has been on the wall with Microsoft since late 2022, early 2023, but they're not going to rip the bandaid off. Here we are 2 years later and people still think Microsoft is in this and coming out with new hardware.

• Name one major exclusive 3rd party game they've secured since they bought ABK
  • They're not even trying to "out console" Sony
• They've ported 4 games to PS5 and have already confirmed more on the way (Minecraft PS5 and Indiana Jones)
  • They named Indiana Jones as a PS5 game before the XBS version, a game coming out after black Friday and only a couple weeks before Christmas
• They're promoting Xbox streaming via Firestick and heavily promoting that you don't need to play on Xbox

If you look at the timeline for Xbox, it's clear where things are going.

2020
Aug '20 - Halo Infinite delayed to 2021, XBS to launch without a major IP

2021
Dec' 21 - Halo Infinite launches feature incomplete and fails to move the needle

2022
Sep '22 - Bonnie Ross out at 343

2023
May '23 - Redfall releases and is a complete disaster
May '23 - Phil Spencer says Microsoft isn't going to out-console Sony
Aug '23 - Baldur's Gate 3 gets delayed on Xbox due to the Series S
Sep '23 - Starfield releases and fails to move the needle
Oct '23 - Forza Motorsport bombs

2024
Jan '24 - Microsoft announces 1900 layoffs in its gaming division
Feb '24 - Microsoft announces 4 Xbox games are moving to PS5
Feb '24 - Toys for Bob announces they're going independent
Mar '24 - Reports that Xbox is flat-lining in Europe
May '24 - Microsoft closes Tango Gameworks and Arkane Austin
Jun '24 - Xbox announces "No Console Needed" campaign with Amazon Firestick, they also announce 2TB XSX priced for 600 dollars in a clear sign they are no longer subsidizing hardware
Jun '24 - Black Myth Wukong delayed on Xbox, potentially never coming out
Aug '24 - Avowed delayed to 2025
Aug '24 - Indiana Jones announced for PS5 ahead of XBS launch, releasing 5 months after XBS launch
Sep '24 - Xbox announces additional layoffs (650 employees)
Oct '24 - 343i rebrands to Halo Studios announcing that they've moved Halo to Unreal Engine, all but guaranteeing it will be on PS5

 

[BlackTron]

I agree with your post overall, however the Sonic situation is not something SEGA wished for and certainly not them being pretentious or whatever. They were trying to get Sonic on Saturn.

The first 3D consoles simply did not have it in them to scroll 3D engines fast enough to enable an easy transition to 3D. Even to this day, 3D Sonic still relies on custom built engines exactly because of this technical challenge (and the Hedgehog Engine is fantastic by the way, they are absolute wizards).

Back then, it was simply way too challenging. With the huge success of Sonic on MegaDrive, you can be sure that SEGA wanted by all means to have Sonic on Saturn. The technology simply wasn't there for a proper move to 3D. You don't have full 3D platformers with elaborated physics and very fast scrolling on that generation of consoles.

The comparison of OG Xbox with PCE is on point. The Master System after all was a budget offering and was mainly sold exactly during the same time period as the MegaDrive. If anything, it could be compared to Series S, MegaDrive being the Series X.

Didn't they have a pretty decent Sonic game going on in America before Yuji Naka found out they used his Nights engine and threatened to leave the company if they didn't stop it?

The real reason for no Sonic on Saturn, this dudes ego was more important than the company.

 

[RoboFu]

Nah it's completely backwards.

Xbox series is more like the master system though.
No exclusive games anyone wants and ported their games to competing consoles.

Dreamcast went out on top with a bang with lots of great games. Original Xbox had lots of great exclusives oddly enough more than a few from sega.

 

[intheinbetween]

People are taking seriously the “no games” meme when Series has like 90% of the library in PS5, and yet has its own console exclusives. But hey, Dreamcast had JSRF and a few other overrated titles, so let’s pretend they did it better than a company that is in the console hardware industry over 20 years

 

[RetroGamingUK]

People are taking seriously the “no games” meme when Series has like 90% of the library in PS5, and yet has its own console exclusives. But hey, Dreamcast had JSRF and a few other overrated titles, so let’s pretend they did it better than a company that is in the console hardware industry over 20 years

Technically correct, but it’s missing so many of the big hitters and Metacritic darlings. Especially this year’s big releases.

 

[GoldenEye98]

A lot of romanticizing going on here...

Sega's best console (Genesis) sold 30M units. Saturn and Dreamcast sold 9M units.

 

[DryvBy]

I mean in 2024 Sega are still doing well as a games publisher.

In a decade or two down the road I see Microsoft still being a big publisher too.

Difference is Sega makes games of quality and things people want.

 

[Insanemaelstrom]

I completely agree. Going to the arcades and playing Daytona, virtua fighter etc was an amazing experience. I was more of a Nintendo fan for home stuff but I still loved my master system and dreamcast. I just don't think anything landed with the phenomena of halo and gears in the console space.

Sure you can say those franchises are in decline from their absolute peak but what franchise from Sony or MS is seeing growth in sequels now? Doesn't seem like any are.

God of war? Ragnarok is the fastest selling god of war game and is probably going to be the best selling soon. Valhalla was excellent to say the least.

Gt7 is going to be the best selling gt game soon and is a fucming masterpiece.

Helldivers went from a niche game to the massive best seller that is Helldivers 2. A game that become the fastest selling playstation game till date.

Spiderman 2 has performed even better commercially and critically than Spiderman 1, somehow. The franchise is currently at an all time high

I don't like tlou 2, but the franchise is far more mainstream than ever before.

Most Sony franchises and studios are better than they ever have before. The only issue is the long dev time, which is more of a product of current market reality rather than any sort of decline.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

God of war? Ragnarok is the fastest selling god of war game and is probably going to be the best selling soon. Valhalla was excellent to say the least.

Gt7 is going to be the best selling gt game soon and is a fucming masterpiece.

Helldivers went from a niche game to the massive best seller that is Helldivers 2. A game that become the fastest selling playstation game till date.

Spiderman 2 has performed even better commercially and critically than Spiderman 1, somehow. The franchise is currently at an all time high

I don't like tlou 2, but the franchise is far more mainstream than ever before.

Most Sony franchises and studios are better than they ever have before. The only issue is the long dev time, which is more of a product of current market reality rather than any sort of decline.

Indeed, Sega (outside the original Sonic series) just never had great first party game sales when they were a platform holder.

Even during the MegaDrive days Aladdin was the only other Sega game that came close.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Eh…Microsoft is in a much better position than Sega ever was, so them failing is so much worse.
Especially with Microsoft buying up some of the biggest, most well regarded franchises in the industry. Had Sega owned so many huge mainstream hit franchises, I think they’d still be making consoles today.

Although an argument can be made that Sega’s management would blunder similar to Microsoft.

 

[ShadowkillXNA]

Sega lost a lot of 3rd party support, MS was and still is getting major 3rd party games. Xbox one and the series consoles aren't failures. They are fine.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Eh…Microsoft is in a much better position than Sega ever was, so them failing is so much worse.
Especially with Microsoft buying up some of the biggest, most well regarded franchises in the industry. Had Sega owned so many huge mainstream hit franchises, I think they’d still be making consoles today.

Although an argument can be made that Sega’s management would blunder similar to Microsoft.

Sigh, this isn’t about Sega Enterprise vs Microsoft Corportation.

It’s about comparing the trajectories of their consoles.

This is what happens when “Xbox” become a nebulous brand.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Sigh, this isn’t about Sega Enterprise vs Microsoft Corportation.

It’s about comparing the trajectories of their consoles.

This is what happens when “Xbox” become a nebulous brand.

If you want a simple view of things and not an overall discussion between the two, that’s fine.

In no way was Xbox even remotely comparable to the Master System. World of difference between the two.

 

[cireza]

Didn't they have a pretty decent Sonic game going on in America before Yuji Naka found out they used his Nights engine and threatened to leave the company if they didn't stop it?

The real reason for no Sonic on Saturn, this dudes ego was more important than the company.

I don't think that we have any proof that this project was even far into development though.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

If you want a simple view of things and not an overall discussion between the two, that’s fine.

In no way was Xbox even remotely comparable to the Master System. World of difference between the two.

Depends where you’re from.

It was quite popular in the UK and had a decent lifespan with many of ports of big MegaDrive games being released.

My understanding is that it flopped in the USA and was withdrawn from the market fairly early on.

Now, Brazil on the other hand…

 

[diffusionx]

Dreamcast and Saturn are so much better than the Xbox Series and One though.

 

[digdug2]

Do people really think about this stuff unironically?

I have thoughts and ideas that are irrelevant to most aspects of my life, so I post them on message boards related to the thought in question. You mean to tell me that you don't?

 

[playbignbox]

People are taking seriously the “no games” meme when Series has like 90% of the library in PS5, and yet has its own console exclusives. But hey, Dreamcast had JSRF and a few other overrated titles, so let’s pretend they did it better than a company that is in the console hardware industry over 20 years

90%? More like 99.9%.
The only currently relevant issue with Xbox at the moment is that MS is porting first party games to PlayStation/Nintendo Switch, which destroys much of the Xbox's value proposition.

 

[Griffon]

I was gonna bash OP on the thread title, but reading his post makes a bit more sense yes.

Tho there is one major difference, the Dreamcast and Sega studios at that time were absolutely killing it in terms of quality releases, whereas Xbox can't manage their developers for shit.

 

[zaga]

Microsoft tried to win decades ago by buying Rare, and look what happened. Rare’s best games are still their pre-acquisition games for the SNES and N64. The same thing could well happen with Bethesda, Blizzard, Double Fine, etc.

Is anyone genuinely excited about any upcoming games published by a Microsoft studio? I am mostly nervous. Hopefully Indiana Jones isn’t as slow and clunky as it appears…

RIP Arkane.

 

[lordrand11]

I don't know how you can claim they aren't failures. Each successive generation has sold worse than the prior one since the Xbox 360, and it HAS lost third party support - from many Japanese publishers deciding to sign deals with Sony for exclusivity because they don't really see a big ROI with keeping games on Xbox, to things like Baldur's Gate 3 not releasing on Xbox for a long time, as well as Wukong....

"They are fine" is not true when they've started abandoning console exclusivity....Sony is simply too big for them to continue ignoring. That is not the case for Sony or Nintendo vs. Xbox.

To be fair, those exclusivity agreements are also being lost with Sony due to the bloated development costs and lack of ROI and not meeting basic sales goals even on the PS5. Hence why Square is releasing their titles multiplatform. For example FF7 Rebirth has hit a grand total of 2 million in sales, with the PS5 having a total of 60 million units sold meaning they penetrated roughly 3% of the overall owner base of that console on that one game.

 

[XXL]

To add to this further. My post from the other day.

There isnt going to be another Xbox console imo.

This is becoming pretty clear.

Xbox shutting down ambassador program.

Xbox Ambassador Is Closing After 13 Years -- Here's Why And What Happens Next

Microsoft is closing the Xbox Ambassador program after more than a decade of operation.

www.gamespot.com

Xbox marketing budget reduced.

Xbox Marketing Budget Reportedly 'Reduced' In The Wake Of Microsoft Layoffs

Will we hear less from the company in the coming months?

www.purexbox.com

Key marketing exec leaves

Microsoft shakes up Xbox marketing as key exec departs for Roblox

Jerret West is leaving Xbox at the end of the month.

www.theverge.com

Indiana Jones announced for PS5 before the Xbox release

Microsoft confirms Indiana Jones is coming to PS5 after its Xbox debut

Bethesda’s Indiana Jones game will arrive on Xbox first.

www.theverge.com

Microsoft will stop marketing in EU (rumor)

Microsoft will stop marketing Xbox consoles in Europe claims insider

The major shift in Xbox strategy continues, with a new rumour suggesting that Microsoft is to give up promoting its hardware in ‘certain’ markets.

metro.co.uk

Halo coming to PS5

Amid Xbox multiplatform rumors, Halo job listing says future games will be "for all players, on all platforms"

Phil Spencer will address Xbox's future next week

www.gamesradar.com

The First Halo Game Is Reportedly Being Considered For PS5

It apparently won't be announced at the Xbox June Games Showcase.

www.gamespot.com

You don't need an Xbox


Plus none of their recent game announcements even mention platforms.

 

[BlackTron]

I don't think that we have any proof that this project was even far into development though.

It's really very difficult to look at Sonic X-treme and not arrive at the conclusion that company politics destroyed this games development.

 

[XXL]

And this from the other day.

Blade


Gears Eday


Perfect Dark


State of Decay 3


None of these trailers even list platforms at all at the end of the trailers.

Every trailer posted is directly from Xbox YT.

Here are announcements before to see the difference of how trailers use to end.

Hellblade 2


Indiana Jones


Starfield

The entire Halo presentation doesn't even mention Xbox aside from in the past tense and also says nothing about platforms.

Xbox should just rip the band-aid off at this point, imo.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

Microsoft tried to win decades ago by buying Rare, and look what happened. Rare’s best games are still their pre-acquisition games for the SNES and N64. The same thing could well happen with Bethesda, Blizzard, Double Fine, etc.

Is anyone genuinely excited about any upcoming games published by a Microsoft studio? I am mostly nervous. Hopefully Indiana Jones isn’t as slow and clunky as it appears…

RIP Arkane.

Does make you wonder what Activision’a output will look like in a few years.

Just look at Starfield and the decline of Bethesda

 

[ManaByte]

Thinking people would flock to laggy online gaming with a 33k modem rather than waiting for broadband

The Dreamcast shipped with a 56K modem and there was a broadband adaptor you could buy if you actually had broadband in your area (most people didn't in 1999),

 

[AJUMP23]

Definitely a decline. But they can get back on top if they figure out how to make great exclusives again. Everyone thought Nintendo was doomed during GameCube then they came out with Wii and were the market leader. They do have something saga didn’t and that is capital. I can see them trying one more bad and stopping if it doesn’t hit.

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

I didn’t read all that, but I’ll just say you’re wrong to be confrontational since this is the internet.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

The Dreamcast shipped with a 56K modem and there was a broadband adaptor you could buy if you actually had broadband in your area (most people didn't in 1999),

It was different in Europe

- We had a slow modem with delays to the online component

- We never got broadband adaptor, despite broadband adoption in the Uk being faster than the US

- There was no Soul Calibur at launch

- There was no “It’s thinking marketing”, we had marketing about “6 billion players” without a single online game to play for months

 

[ManaByte]

It was different in Europe

- We had a slow modem with delays to the online component

- We never got broadband adaptor, despite broadband adoption in the Uk being faster than the US

- There was no Soul Calibur at launch

- There was no “It’s thinking marketing”, we had marketing about “6 billion players” without a single online game to play for months

The modem wasn't region locked. You could've always imported a 56K one.

 

[SmurfMustard]

I feel like I've heard about the imminent death of XBox for the better part of two decades.
Any day now boys, any day.

 

[jm89]

They are going down fighting and screaming, which in reality is doing nothing but provide quality entertainment.

 

[RetroGamingUK]

The modem wasn't region locked. You could've always imported a 56K one.

We’re talking about why Dreamcast failed (more so in Europe than America) and you’re suggesting the mass market should have just imported incompatible 56k modems?

 

[ManaByte]

We’re talking about why Dreamcast failed (more so in Europe than America) and you’re suggesting the mass market should have just imported 56k modems?

It's well documented why Dreamcast failed and Sega went under. No where in this thread do I see any evidence presented that Microsoft is running out of money the way Sega of Japan was when Sega exited the console business.

 

[dave_d]

The Dreamcast shipped with a 56K modem and there was a broadband adaptor you could buy if you actually had broadband in your area (most people didn't in 1999),

One of the big problems with the broadband adapter was the support. I literally bought one(I think you could only buy it from Sega) to play Phantasy Star Online so of course the US release had support crippled in that game. (It actually support it but you couldn't configure it. There was some trick I had to do burning a special copy of the web browser that could configure it and that configuration would be used by PSO. Once you configured it then it worked.) Not sure what games actually "truely" supported it.