Support NeoGAF

[Joe]

my brother absolutely swears on it. he keeps trying to force me to buy one and even sends me links to buy good flat-screen monitors for cheap. is it really that good? also, do you get HD quality?

 

[Lazy8s]

I think it's transcoded and not native like Dreamcast VGA, but the picture quality is still very good.

 

[Templar Wizard]

as i am in europe, i dont have a HDTV, so i have to use a VGA adaptor if i want my 480p+.
and i cant go back.
its fantastic. so clear so crisp and so cheap.

i reccomend it highly to anyone who wants a cheaper alternative to a HDTV pricetag.

but i must ask: do HDTV's provide any AA?

 

[dark10x]

If you can stand a 16-bit color, 640x480 image on your monitor, then I'm sure you'll be happy enough.

XBOX games tend to have better color blending than Dreamcast (bad dithering ahoy!), but the image is a bit dim/dull looking...

 

[MattCoz]

but i must ask: do HDTV's provide any AA?

The TV doesn't, but I know what you mean, none of the Xbox games I've played have used any AA whatsoever. I've even tried games like Ninja Gaiden and it didn't have any.

 

[Joe]

what is the best piece to get? and i know these websites arent exactly the most secure, so are they safe to order from? how long can i expect shipping to be?

thanks.

 

[Lazy8s]

dark10x:

If you can stand a 16-bit color, 640x480 image on your monitor, then I'm sure you'll be happy enough.

Xbox's output buffer uses 32-bit depth more often than any other console.

XBOX games tend to have better color blending than Dreamcast (bad dithering ahoy!),

Nope, DC performs all blending operations at full 32-bit accuracy.

but the image is a bit dim/dull looking...

This has definitely been a problem with Xbox VGA solutions.

 

[aerofx]

Not sure what you mean LAzy but some games like the Tecmo ones on the same level of clarity as the native DC, most games aren't though for some reason. It could be because it's being rendered at a different resolution and sampled into another one. As for AA, who needs it, it just makes the game blurry.

 

[MattCoz]

but the image is a bit dim/dull looking

I haven't noticed that, maybe its your monitor.

As for AA, who needs it, it just makes the game blurry.

Well that depends on the method of AA.

 

[dark10x]

Nope, DC performs all blending operations at full 32-bit accuracy.

Oh, that may be true, but it looks no different than 16-bit output on an older nVidia card. Very dithered.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to brag about 32-bit accuracy that looks like 16-bit.

 

[Joeholley]

It does look amazing, and I also don't have a problem with it looking 'dull' or 'dim', but I have a light controlled room, which probably helps.

 

[Wario64]

What's the best/cheapest VGA out there?

 

[ge-man]

Wario--I have an X-blaster, which can be had for 50 these days (if it's still available, it was discontinued a long time ago). The x2vga is supposed to pretty good (only works with Xbox IIRC). There's another one in the same price range but I can't think of the name.

As for the Xbox's IQ, that depends on the game. Frankly, I think too many developers are playing with the AA or flicker filter. I wish more companies would allow an option to turn it off.

 

[Lazy8s]

aerofx:

Not sure what you mean LAzy but some games like the Tecmo ones on the same level of clarity as the native DC,

Color output on Xbox is more often higher depth than DC, PS2, or GC. What I was talking about was that the signal carried by the VGA cord on DC was produced natively by DC, while Xbox solutions may use somewhat inferior transcoded signals. Also, regarding blending operations, the DC doesn't ever dither while performing them unlike other consoles.

As for AA, who needs it, it just makes the game blurry.

Actually, lower resolutions make things blurry, not AA. AA are specific algorithms to get rid of messiness. Algorithms that blur things are not AA.

dark10x:

Oh, that may be true, but it looks no different than 16-bit output on an older nVidia card. Very dithered.

Rather than trying myself to explain why your particular Dreamcast/TV set-up defies reality, I'll leave that to you.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to brag about 32-bit accuracy that looks like 16-bit.

Full 32-bit internal precision like DC has, even when output into a 16-bit buffer, does not look like 16-bit precision.

 

[dark10x]

Full 32-bit internal precision like DC has, even when output into a 16-bit buffer, does not look like 16-bit precision.

It depends on the game...

MSR does not suffer from this problem, but it does represent a complaint I have with DC VGA...

Aliasing will remain on a TV, but a VGA monitor is simply too sharp for its own good.

 

[aerofx]

What's the best/cheapest VGA out there?

http://www.vdigi.com/

Cheapest and best looking one out there. Also comes with lots of extras unlike the other transcoders out there.

 

[Lazy8s]

dark10x:

It depends on the game...

The laws of nature do not vary depending on the game. Games are certainly capable of having poorly designed assets, though.

MSR does not suffer from this problem, but it does represent a complaint I have with DC VGA...

DC VGA is a native VGA signal, no worse than any other and representing an image quality as good as any signal. MSR, on the other hand, has graphical issues all on its own.

 

[dark10x]

The laws of nature do not vary depending on the game. Games are certainly capable of having poorly designed assets, though.

Could you explain the dithering/graininess found in Resident Evil - Code Veronica and MDK2, please?

DC VGA is a native VGA signal

The signal is not the problem. Which output device are you displaying your Dreamcast on? Make and model would be sufficient...

Also, which PS2 games did you test on that same display? You never did answer that question and I am curious.

 

[Lazy8s]

dark10x:

a VGA monitor is simply too sharp for its own good.

That implies some arbitrary standard of ideal blurriness and ignores the fact that game graphics are made of assets and not defects. However, what you're really saying is that you don't like certain PC monitors, which of course has nothing to do with a technical issues of DC VGA.

 

[dark10x]

dark10x:

That implies some arbitrary standard of ideal blurriness and ignores the fact that game graphics are made of assets and not defects. However, what you're really saying is that you don't like certain PC monitors, which of course has nothing to do with a technical discussion over DC VGA.

What I am suggesting is that Dreamcast does not render at a high enough resolution and a lower quality display manages to hide some of those flaws, creating a more appealing image.

 

[Ghost]

snip


i want one

 

[dark10x]

Lazy, might I inquire as to why you always seem to "disappear" the second I inquire about your hardware and testing environment?

 

[Lazy8s]

dark10x:

What I am suggesting is that Dreamcast does not render at a high enough resolution

Sound implementation of assets will not leave highly visible pixels behind regardless of how distinct the output is. Your assertion is a contradiction considering you've claimed that PS2 games, which also render at 640x480 and sometimes not even that much, have managed to look good on a PC monitor.

 

[Naked Snake]

I haven't seen XBox in VGA, but if it's anything like Gamecube VGA, then I absolutely hate it.

And yes, I'm talking about true 480p... Games that support 720p must look better though.

 

[dark10x]

dark10x:

Sound implementation of assets will not leave highly visible pixels behind regardless of how distinct the output is. Your assertion is a contradiction considering you've claimed that PS2 games, which also render at 640x480 and sometimes not even that much, have managed to look good on a PC monitor.

No no no no no no, I have no claimed this (and if you feel I did, forgive me, you misunderstood). I've claimed that the few PS2 titles I have played in VGA do not suffer from the same "graininess" issues found in many DC titles. However, it suffers from all of the other problems inherent in that low resolution. ALL current consoles have similar problems when displayed on a VGA monitor...

I am not suggesting that, on the whole, PS2 has a better output than Dreamcast. Not at all. The few titles I have witnessed through VGA either supported 480p natively OR were "hacked" into running in progressive mode with the Blaze box (as they already ran with a full frame buffer).

While you are here, could you explain what it was about the Dreamcast that prevented it from displaying things such as the sun in this pic?

"Lighting" of this type has been present in PS2 titles from day 1, and also is just as common on XBOX and Gamecube. Yet, it is not present in one single Dreamcast title that I have seen. Why is that?

It obviously varies as well, from being a simple over-exposed light corona to actually "blooming" around other objects in the scene...

I haven't seen XBox in VGA, but if it's anything like Gamecube VGA, then I absolutely hate it.

Damn, I have yet to witness GC VGA in action. Is it really that bad? I've found that GC actually has THE BEST progressive output of all current systems (when displayed on an HDTV). What were the problems, exactly? I'm sure it suffers from all of the usual issues I have with displaying current consoles on a monitor, but is there anything else?

 

[ge-man]

adelgary--What games have you been playing? My Xblaster made me love my GC even more. If anything, I've become more disappointed in Xbox IQ because some games are just raped by the filtering or whatever the hell a lot developers are doing. I wished more games looked like JSRF or Gunvalkyre.

 

[dark10x]

What games have you been playing? My Xblaster made me love my GC even more. If anything, I've become more disappointed in Xbox IQ because some games are just raped by the filtering or whatever the hell a lot developers are doing. I wished more games looked like JSRF or Gunvalkyre.

JSRF is one of the grainiest games I've seen as of late. Are you sure you want them all to look like that?

 

[MattCoz]

Damn, I have yet to witness GC VGA in action. Is it really that bad?

No, it looks great.

 

[ge-man]

JSRF is one of the grainiest games I've seen as of late. Are you sure you want them all to look like that?

I can live with grain and banding problems, I just can't live with the blur/softness.

 

[Lazy8s]

dark10x:

might I inquire as to why you always seem to "disappear" the second I inquire about your hardware and testing environment?

The laws of nature don't vary depending on home theater set-up, so there's nothing left to cover in a technical discussion once the topic changes to specifics of set-ups.

Wrongly claiming DC VGA is poor because of a personal preference for HDTV ignores the fact that VGA is just a signal and not tied to a display device, that there are HDTVs/arcade-monitors/etc. that accept VGA, and that PC monitor sharpness is not objectively bad. Claiming it's poor anyway is just like wrongfully criticizing PS2 480p component because of a broken TV.

 

[dark10x]

I can live with grain and banding problems, I just can't live with the blur/softness.

Oh.

Heh, I actually prefer a slightly soft, blurry look to a pixelated image.

 

[dark10x]

dark10x:

The laws of nature don't vary depending on home theater set-up, so there's nothing left to cover in a technical discussion once the topic changes to specifics of set-ups.

Wrongly claiming DC VGA is poor because of a personal preference for HDTV ignores the fact that VGA is just a signal and not tied to a display device, that there are HDTVs/arcade-monitors/etc. that accept VGA, and that PC monitor sharpness is not objectively bad. Claiming it's poor anyway is just like wrongfully criticizing PS2 480p component because of a broken TV.

Would you please answer my questions for once? I have left three questions for you. Please answer them.

DC VGA is not poor, but I do not like the type of image is produces on a computer monitor. If you would simply answer my questions, I could possibly understand your point of view better...

 

[The Faceless Master]

VDigi VD-Z3 Enhanced - I own this, it's hands down the #1 choice, works on any 480p source too, which includes many gamecube and some ps2 games
Key Digital KD-XB discontinued and highly discounted, also works on any 480p source, which includes many gamecube and some ps2 games
Neoya X2VGA+ - another great option, xbox only though

i don't like playing sprite based games on monitors, just can't get used to how they look... but everything else i really like... i should try #Reload to see how it is...

 

[Naked Snake]

Damn, I have yet to witness GC VGA in action. Is it really that bad? I've found that GC actually has THE BEST progressive output of all current systems (when displayed on an HDTV). What were the problems, exactly? I'm sure it suffers from all of the usual issues I have with displaying current consoles on a monitor, but is there anything else?

I know my opinion on this matter is not popular at all, every single opinion about the GC VGA I read online has been incredibly positive, so it's either that I have really different "IQ standards" than everyone else, or it's my monitor or VGA cable (I'm leaning toward me disagreeing on what looks good and what doesn't with most people).

I bought a modified official D-Terminal GC cable to output true VGA, and I tried several games including Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Twin Snakes, Mario Sunshine, F-Zero GX, Viewtiful Joe, and others on my 17" LG Flatron 775FT... and I found the image to be way too sharp and jaggie for my tastes, it also makes low-res textures and other visual imperfections standout much more than they do on TV with RGB (a complaint I have with DC games in VGA as well).

I wonder if it's just 640x480 looking really jaggy on my particular monitor, but I have no real reason to believe that, other than everyone online disagreeing with me (a couple of my friends agree with me though that GC games look much better on my TV than on my monitor).

adelgary--What games have you been playing? My Xblaster made me love my GC even more. If anything, I've become more disappointed in Xbox IQ because some games are just raped by the filtering or whatever the hell a lot developers are doing. I wished more games looked like JSRF or Gunvalkyre.

I wonder if the Xblaster (which I assume converts component signal to VGA?) gives a better/softer IQ than the cable I'm using.

 

[dark10x]

I bought a modified official D-Terminal GC cable to output true VGA, and I tried several games including Wind Waker, Metroid Prime, Twin Snakes, Mario Sunshine, F-Zero GX, Viewtiful Joe, and others on my 17" LG Flatron 775FT... and I found the image to be way too sharp and jaggie for my tastes, it also makes low-res textures and other visual imperfections standout much more than they do on TV with RGB (a complaint I have with DC games in VGA as well).

This is how I feel about ALL consoles and VGA...

DC VGA IS the best of the bunch, but TV output just looks so much better...

Some people like REALLY sharp images, though...even when they are jaggy as hell.

 

[ge-man]

Maybe it is a preference issue. I'm one of those people Dark mentioned--the first thing I did when I got Pikmin 2 was to turn the deflicker off. That's just how I am.

 

[dark10x]

Good morning Lazy8s!

I have a few question awaiting answers, if you don't mind...

1) Which output device are you displaying your Dreamcast on? Make and model would be sufficient...

2) Also, which PS2 games did you test on that same display? You never did answer that question and I am curious.

3) Could you explain what it was about the Dreamcast that prevented it from displaying things such as the sun in this pic?

"Lighting" of this type has been present in PS2 titles from day 1, and also is just as common on XBOX and Gamecube. Yet, it is not present in one single Dreamcast title that I have seen. Why is that?

It obviously varies as well, from being a simple over-exposed light corona to actually "blooming" around other objects in the scene...

 

[PanopticBlue]

...snip

I'll answer your question. PS2 is simply newer hardware than DC, by at the very least a year, possibly one and a half to two years (let alone GC and Xbox). It better damn well be able to do effects like the bloom lighting in your pic. Now, what that has to do with a consoles video output, vga support, or pro scan, is beyond me. Changing the subject doesn't really help your argument.

I know you're engaged in a lifelong struggle to prove Lazy8s wrong at every tiny little opportunity, but the reality here is that he didn't really give any false information in this thread. Furthermore, the fact that you come to gaf first thing in the morning, and bump this thread repeating your question, calls your motives into question far more than Lazy8s.

 

[dark10x]

I'll answer your question. PS2 is simply newer hardware than DC, by at the very least a year, possibly one and a half to two years (let alone GC and Xbox). It better damn well be able to do effects like the bloom lighting in your pic. Now, what that has to do with a consoles video output, vga support, or pro scan, is beyond me. Changing the subject doesn't really help your argument.

I know you're engaged in a lifelong struggle to prove Lazy8s wrong at every tiny little opportunity, but the reality here is that he didn't really give any false information in this thread. Furthermore, the fact that you come to gaf first thing in the morning, and bump this thread repeating your question, calls your motives into question far more than Lazy8s.

Well, with the lighting thing, I seriously want to know since some people have claimed it to be an incredibly simple trick that is nothing special and that the DC could do it without a problem. I don't understand how those effects are achieved and why the DC couldn't do it.

As for the other things, I have asked those question like 7 or 8 times and have never recieved a response. Everytime I ask them, those questions go ignored and he simply never returns to the thread to answer them. I'm just curious to see if I can get a response out of him regarding those issues. It would allow me to understand his POV better anyways. I mean, if he has some ultra high quality, high resolution arcade display at home...it would all suddenly become clear.

Lazy generally doesn't give false information. I know that. The problem is that he never gives ENOUGH information and only answers very specific questions.

It really has nothing to do with this thread and it's just fun for me. Also, I can't disappointment ASM.

 

[DaCocoBrova]

GC VGA > XBOX VGA

I don't know what some people are talking about. Go play F-Zero GX or Metroid Prime in VGA and report back.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This one device accomodates all the consoles (provided the content is progressive) and it's cheap!

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

it's just fun for me. Also, I can't disappointment ASM.

Yeah. I came for a fucking show

bad dithers yo!

 

[PanopticBlue]

It really has nothing to do with this thread and it's just fun for me. Also, I can't disappointment ASM.

Ah, so you're just showing off in front of friends. The cat is out of the bag. Go ahead Lazy, humor him.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This one device accomodates all the consoles (provided the content is progressive) and it's cheap!

What does PS2 look like through this device? I guess it would only work with a couple games eh?

 

[DaCocoBrova]

Like a progressive PS2 game. The only progressive game I own for the PS2 is Burnout 2 and it looked damn good. I played it on a NEC MP42 Plasma.

 

[dark10x]

No, not really. We're joking around. Surely you don't consider this kind of thing "showing off"?

Why are you being so negative, man? I don't understand...

Do you disagree with something I've said?

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

the guy still using a MAFatar says that your game is gettin' old, dude

 

[dark10x]

the guy still using a MAFatar says that your game is gettin' old, dude

Yeah, I guess I better stop "showing off" huh?

 

[PanopticBlue]

No, not really. We're joking around. Surely you don't consider this kind of thing "showing off"?

Why are you being so negative, man? I don't understand...

Do you disagree with something I've said?

I wasn't trying to be negative, I figured the smilie in my post went some way towards conveying that.

Really, you are quite argumentative with several people on the board, sometimes it's a bit over the top, I'm just giving you a taste of your own medicine I do think you are one of the better posters on the gaf, even though I disagree with you occasionally.

 

[Ecrofirt]

You know, this thread brings up a question I've had for awhile.

There's a VGA Xbox BIOS floating around for people with modchips.

What exactly does it do?

 

[MattCoz]

I found the image to be way too sharp and jaggie for my tastes, it also makes low-res textures and other visual imperfections standout much more than they do on TV

That's definitely a preference issue then, personally I don't want the image being degraded by bad connections and tv quality. The pros far outweigh the cons imo.

 

[dark10x]

I wasn't trying to be negative, I figured the smilie in my post went some way towards conveying that.

Really, you are quite argumentative with several people on the board, sometimes it's a bit over the top, I'm just giving you a taste of your own medicine I do think you are one of the better posters on the gaf, even though I disagree with you occasionally.

Alright, that's cool.

Honestly, when I have a boring day ahead of me and not much to do...these heated semi-discussions are actually pretty darn fun. I'm not usually as serious nor as angry as I sound, but I love going at it for a while.

The problem is, unless you really try to start something, a lot of conversations end up going nowhere and I end up bored again...