this was a really interesting post and i just want to thank you for taking the time to make it.
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You are More Likely to become a Self-Made Millionaire in Western Europe vs USA
- Thread starter Barrett2
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this was a really interesting post and i just want to thank you for taking the time to make it.
While quite a few benefits are obviously unsustainable in the long run with the dire demographic situation Europe finds itself in, that doesn't validate your argument here. For instance, the provision of cheap and accessible quality education is something that provides strong benefits to the economy as a whole in the long run. It is an investment by the state in its future, not a 'freebie'. Similarly, statistics prove that there are significant efficiency gains in socialized healthcare systems versus free market healthcare systems. Society as a whole is better off.
What is unsustainable are things like retiring before the age of 70 and job security over career security.
empty vessel
Member
These assertions have no empirical support whatsoever, and they are completely false. The Eurozone has certain issues, but benefit spending per se of its respective governments isn't one of them.
el retorno
Member
You´re contradicting yourself here. Germany has often time much higher social welfare benifits than the southern european countries.
That being said the welfare system that grew in the 00s was growning much to fast compared to the economy though I´d put the blame not so much on the hand outs but rather on more ridged labor market (especially in the south). That has shut many youth out of the market.
I think that's called begging the question, dude...
While Goya makes some very good points about the 'fluidity' of the middle class of the US, I think a big angle that a lot of the Heritage Foundation talking points about 'absolute income' gains seem to gloss over is that in the US, the cost of education and healthcare have been increasing at 300% the rate of inflation for many years. This has a LOT to do with the phenomena of today's generation of 20 and 30 somethings being unable to transition into traditional adulthood in the way the baby boomer generation was able to.
Even if the average 20-30 something middle class American has a higher inflation-adjusted income than their parents, so what, they also have healthcare and education costs dramatically more expensive than their parents had, in addition to the complete disappearance of defined benefit pensions or retirement accounts.
CornBurrito
Member
May I see your evidence supporting these assertions?
Since the article in the OP was talking about healthcare and education specifically, please focus on those.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Calling Korey!
Korey, where are you at?
Korey, where are you at?
ThisWreckage
Banned
A couple have moved to some of the Nordic countries. I still say that Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the Nordic countries, and Germany are the hot spots right now. I even know some people that I graduated with in college that have tried South America.
el retorno
Member
What are they doing in the Nordic countries? It seems a bit hard to get in there.
ThisWreckage
Banned
Not at all. They're in the medical field. Well, one is. The other does some sort of business work.
el retorno
Member
Just wondering. I really have no intrest in the Nordic countries (too cold) but it always seemed a bit shut to immigration besides asylum seekers where it was "door´s wide open come on in"
Rocket Scientist
Member
''Freebies'' are being paid by taxes, they are not free. The southern European countries have their own reasons for the situation they are in right now. In Spain the housing bubble burst like crazy. There was a thread on GAF about the completely empty neighborhoods. Services have nothing to do with the economic crisis. Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. The desire to make money hand over fist is what has caused the current economic situation.
Salary is not profit. No one's salary factor in expenses and the more taxes that make up that expense, the less there is to devote for the far more important task of keeping the economy going. The only thing that a punishing tax (75% tax rate is always punishment) does is grow the government which should not be the goal of even the most liberal democracy.
At best a 75% tax rate is an emergency rate, but because the government sucks at managing the money they acquire, there will always be a crisis. The end result will be that the incomes that the punishment tax is based on will diminish because it will not grow the economy. There's no way that it will. It will basically become what a sin tax is supposed to do - tax something until the sin engaged in disappears. 75% = you are a bad person for being rich with no progressiveness about it.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
The problem with massice benefits is the xash drain. Perhaps the governments would have more money and not have had to implement cuts for all programs if they had less to begin with.
They are freebies for those that pay little to no taxes or make no attempt when they can to remove themselves from the need of certain benefits.
Seraphinianus
Banned
I would hope people aren't referring to pure geography to excuse the U.S, rather than "big country" as in 50 states under the federal government, each with their own small government. There are obvious bureaucratic issues in the U.S. that, say, Germany, doesn't have to deal with in relation to other European countries, outside of EU matters, which aren't nearly as hamstringing as the Fed govt.
el retorno
Member
Where are you getting this from? Seriously you´re just making stuff up.
It's not that hard to move to Scandinavia if you have a decent job. It's not North Korea.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Chavs are made up? Go back at the riot thread and look at a lot of the comments from UK posters.
el retorno
Member
Have those "chav´s" ever bought anything? gone to the movies? spent any money?
They pay taxes too and support the economy, the crisis isn't because of the benefits. Just look at countries like Iceland, they had a perfect running economy with healthcare etc, the thing that knocked them over was the privatization and deregulation of national banks. They began spending like crazy without responsibility, causing major debts and financial destabilization of the banks. Then there is Goldman Sachs, which lend money to Greece in secret. That undermined the EU regulation and supervision of the ECB.
You know as good as me that the core of the worldwide crisis is fraud, (wrong) deregulation and no responsibility from the financial sector. It has nothing, totally nothing to do with the benefits. You are acting like the problems can only be solved with less government spending, even though government spending wasn't the cause of the crisis. It's ridiculous really.
Are you sure you know what chavs are?
Chavs. Not all people on benefits are chavs.
Oh yeah I agree but they grow up too, benefits wont work forever. A study showed that many of those in the riots had jobs, they just didn't feel like they earned enough to do what they wanted to do.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Chavs. Not all people on benefits are chavs.
Correct. However, they do exist (in all countries) and are an active drain that never attempts to transition and get freebies. There are also so many benefits they can get, that it creates a larger drain than welfare fraud does in this country. This couple with a demographic's issue makes these benefits in the long term unsustainable. People in Europe need to understand that they are getting cut and not coming back.
kame-sennin
Member
Their belief is that fewer regulations allows more entrepreneurship as well as increased profitability for existing firms, which would in turn trigger economic growth (trickle down).
This is a really good point. Most corporations can't survive without a middle class that spends money on their products. The problem is that the financial sector, which does most of the lobbying with regards to major deregulation, does not produce products for people to consume. In fact, they produce nothing of value at all. The current financial industry is based on trading paper and gambling on commodities (which raises the price of food and fuel, causing starvation and death around the globe). These people don't care about the middle class because they don't depend on the middle class directly as a customer base.
In fact, last I checked, schools like MIT and Harvard meet almost all of their accepted applicant's financial situations to pay for tuition and expenses.
I'm actually a firm believer in working to where you need to go in life. Considering my mother was a girl who grew up in the slums of South America to become an industry-renowned chemical engineer that was able to raise me in the states and with the mentality to achieve my goals, I would say that in the states, you can still work for what you want to achieve (mostly). I didn't go to a fancy private school or anything, either. Public school (and even homeschooled for a little while) my entire life until I went to college.
It is true that it is very difficult to break a poverty cycle, though, but my mother did it.
I will probably have 80k in debt by the time I graduate with my bachelor's degree, but c'est la vie. I'll pay it off.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Why? Why is it difficult to break out of the poverty cycle? I'm not talking lower class here, there will always be a relative "lower class" just due to the nature of the term, I'm talking why is it acceptable, in the United States of America, why is it acceptable that it is difficult to stop living in poverty?
Chavs. Not all people on benefits are chavs.
Those are neds, not chavs.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
The way the nation was founded and expanded. Homesteaders toughing it out in the remote areas of the country. People endured and eventually (and it may take a while) prosper, or that endure and make due with what they have and still enjoy life (the latter may seem odd, but it's possible to live "poor" in a rural area and still have a fulfilling life.
Neds?
Wait, you can tell by just looking at the picture?
I thought neds = chavs from Scotland.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm talking urban. I'm talking being a single mother who has to feed her kids consistent fast food and choose between which bills she's going to charge and miss payments on each month.
DeathIsTheEnd
Member
If they were neds they wouldn't look intoxicated. Since children in Scotland start drinking from the age of 3, by the time they reach 16 their livers are so strong only a CEO can buy enough alcohol to get drunk.
HarryHengst
Member
Yeah, however supply-side eocnomics is a bullshit theory. It works from the idea that, by lowering taxes (on profits!) it will allow producers to lower their prices, which in turn will allow more people to buy stuff and thus generate more profits, which result in more wages for the employees. However, this makes no sense, because taxes are based on profits, not revenue, and theoretically the price of a product is already as low as possible thanks to competition.
So what really is happening is that profits rise and are being taken by shareholders, but that doesnt lead to more investments automatically. Companies will only create jobs if there are people demanding their products/services, and that requires people having money. And thats where supply-side economics always fails: it doesnt take into consideration that people need money, and that demand is wat drives the market, not supply. But since supply-side economics is still lingering around like some goddamn lich which just wont die, we've created a situation where the people who demand things are being sucked dry. And no demand leads to no need to supply goods and voila, economic crisis.
Regardless of whether or not education is a human right should not matter.
Because realistically in todays world, the information is readily available, and there is nothing stopping people from educating themselves or one another.
So in that sense, the only thing infringing upon one's right to education in this country is themselves.
Because realistically in todays world, the information is readily available, and there is nothing stopping people from educating themselves or one another.
So in that sense, the only thing infringing upon one's right to education in this country is themselves.
That's true, but you still need that piece of paper to prove your knowledge.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
"Education" doesn't just mean access to information, unfortunately. In today's job market it also means being able to pursue the degree you need to qualify for anything more then a job moving crates or serving fast food.
HarryHengst
Member
Employers wont accept my degree from the university of google.com.
The Librarian
Banned
We've never had "European style benefits." lulz
I like how your argument as to why America will be better after this is that its people are used to it being shit.
Rocket Scientist
Member
People on wellfare are forced to make an effort into finding a job, going to interviews etc. There are organisations that will look for jobs and try to get as many people back to work. It's in the government's best interest to have people working and there are systems in place for this. There will always be abuse, but I have yet to see any kind of study that shows it's the cause of the unsustainability of the services.
The idea of services itself is not unsustainable. The problems that the demographic situation is causing are however real, yes. The models weren't prepared for the baby boomers and there are too many people dependent on the system. Demographics aren't constant and with changes the services can continue in the long run. To bring up my example from earlier again though, the Dutch government is choosing to slash student aid, university budgets and many other things in favor of housing subsidies for people making 6 figure salaries. A change in these subsidies (which don't exist anywhere else and which have had a demonstrable negative effect on the housing market here) would save billions and would save necessary services from having their budgets slashed while also giving the country a healthier housing market. All these services still have nothing to do with the financial crisis and I think in the long run, changes in demographics and changes in the systems themselves will prove it's sustainable and superior to bootstraps.
The idea of services itself is not unsustainable. The problems that the demographic situation is causing are however real, yes. The models weren't prepared for the baby boomers and there are too many people dependent on the system. Demographics aren't constant and with changes the services can continue in the long run. To bring up my example from earlier again though, the Dutch government is choosing to slash student aid, university budgets and many other things in favor of housing subsidies for people making 6 figure salaries. A change in these subsidies (which don't exist anywhere else and which have had a demonstrable negative effect on the housing market here) would save billions and would save necessary services from having their budgets slashed while also giving the country a healthier housing market. All these services still have nothing to do with the financial crisis and I think in the long run, changes in demographics and changes in the systems themselves will prove it's sustainable and superior to bootstraps.
Yep, http://www.academicearth.org
This is a neat new concept that MIT is trying out for those who are interested:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2011/mitx-faq-1219.html
Don't these European countries that have surpassed us in upward mobility also have a lot of regulations, though?
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
The Great Society programs were fairly close.
el retorno
Member
I think they would argue that mobility is predicated on "moving the wealth around" not on growth and entrepreneurship. I don´t see many world inspiring businesses coming out of europe (with the Scanadaniva being an exception with Skype and Spotify)
Huh? We got rid of welfare, medicaid and medicare?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
So which is more important? Is it more important that we lead the world in innovation, or that our citizens be, on the whole, more comfortable?
I don't have a clear answer to this, btw
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