Neither, because investing in science is too expensive and requires public funding. We're better off living in morally correct slums.
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You are More Likely to become a Self-Made Millionaire in Western Europe vs USA
- Thread starter Barrett2
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el retorno
Member
Both. You´re not going to be able to support those comfortable lifes forever with out growth and growth leads to a better live not just what is comfortable in today´s standards. Unless you´re living in some sci-fi world. I really don´t how understand how scandanavia does it. They have much better benefits than southern europe but they don´t seem to have the stalling economies of the south.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
So how about the dysfunctional parts of Europe and America being at opposite extremes, and both incorrect?
America has started to lag behind when it comes to real research and innovation rather than inventing new business schemes so I don't think that really applies.
el retorno
Member
So we changed the requirements for one and expanded another. Sounds like we didn´t change radically
No I agree. I think there needs to be a middle way. A baseline for a standard for living but an incentive to push and expand.
The Librarian
Banned
I'm not seeing an elimination of Medicare, Medicaid, Head Start, Social Security, or any of the like!
Your next worthless point will be...?
el retorno
Member
Not only that but we greatly EXPANDED another.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Then why do you keep complaining about not having benefits and such, sounds like we have a lot.
So basically you liked what the Republicans did in the 1990s?
kame-sennin
Member
I know you are making a joke, but in reality your comment has some truth to it. The article in the OP explains that people born in the top fifth are likely to remain there. If we lived in a meritocracy, where the most capable people got the best jobs, you wouldn't see so many people who were born into wealth remaining wealthy. But the reality is that even incompetent rich people are born with a foundation of economic and social resources that prevent them from loosing their economic status and give them an unfair advantage when competing for jobs. If your dad is a CEO, and all his friends are CEOs, and all your friends are the children of CEOs, you have a much better shot of becoming a CEO than the smartest kid from the ghetto, even if you're a C student. The value of social networks can not be understated when it comes to evaluating job opportunities.
The corollary to that is that poor kids do not go to the "right" schools or have the "right" peers that would put them on track to attaining upper class employment. Poor kids can not afford SAT prep classes, and their underfunded schools do not provide the types of extracurricular activities that look good on a college application. An extremely small percentage of highly gifted individuals - a level of talent not required for achieving success if you are born wealthy - will get full scholarships. The rest, whether they are competent or not, will struggle to pay to attend city college, dividing their attention between their studies and the jobs they need to afford school. Having graduated from a college that virtually bars them from employment in any fortune 500 company, they will be forced to take whatever work is available in order to pay off their exorbitant student loans.
It's absurd to argue that people born under such vastly disadvantageous circumstances have even nearly the same probabilities of success. People born in the top fifth live in a system designed to ensure their success. People born in the bottom fifth have every social and economic factor pitted against them.
The Librarian
Banned
Le sigh.
kame-sennin
Member
I've wondered about this as well. However, Japan provides an interesting counterpoint. They have a very small level of income inequality, yet they produced an incredible amount of innovative companies and technology between the post-war era and the late 90's. I don't think we have to choose between innovation and a fairer standard of living.
This is pretty much the key insight behind Keynesian economics. Use the government's deficit spending ability to pump money into the middle class, which will drive spending and grow the economy. The theory was applied very successfully in the U.S. until the 1960's, when African-Americans gained legal access to the benefits of a socialized economy. Over the ensuing decades, the perception of earned benefits shifted from something that the working class deserved to something that lazy poor people used to leech off the government. This was due in large part to fiscal conservatives using middle class racism to drive a wedge between the democrat party and white working class voters.
Yes they do. The trickle down theory of economics has never been proven to be effective. It can however drive short term growth in the financial sector, which unfortunately results in an economic crisis.
How well off were your parents? What did they do for a living?
(It's a relevant question, since it's a major part of the article that this thread is about.)
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Teacher and Lawyer (dad was first person to go to college in his family, this was after he got out of the Marines).
el retorno
Member
The welfare reform wasn´t that bad and seems to have done pretty well. But I think we need to greatly expand our medical programs.
I´m not the biggest fan of european type socialism after seeing it first hand. But I still think we can learn a lot. Take what they did learn what they did wrong and create a better program.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
I appreciate you being honest about that. A lot of gaffers would most likely take a knife wound to the shoulder before admitting that.
That's a decent approach.
So then your own experience falls right in line with what the article contends. You didn't "study hard and get a job" out of some bootstrapping strength of will. You did so because your parents were in a good position to be able to allow you to study hard and get a job. You came from an advantaged situation and, to your credit, did not squander that advantage.
Your father's experience is a little bit irrelevant here. This article and conversation is about mobility today, not a few decades ago.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
So it's wrong that my parents encouraged me? I pushed my self through law school and to find a job. Considering the market, finding a job wasn't easy. Hell, I nearly started doing courier work for a caterer to make money for me and my wife while I was trying to find I job (I got my current one before I had too).
It's about strength of will though.
el retorno
Member
I´m not opposed to market reforms. I don´t think people like regan and thacher were evil. I think they did some good.
I like to consider myself a conservative but in the most basic definition of the word. When people ask I´m still a liberal though because thats the common sense of the word.
I don´t like change for the sake of change. I don´t believe that a "rational" though out program will always work out that way. I think we should always temper our desire for radical change. That being said that doesn´t mean I´m opposed to "liberal" things. I favor UHC for example because it´s been show to work.
I favor a slow trial and error process and believe that what people did in the past shouldn´t be thrown out just like that.
It´s not always that though. If you start out by going to a crapy school in a crappy neighborhood its hard to get out of that.
Not in the slightest bit. I come from a fairly similar advantaged position, was always taught to do my best and work hard, and got a graduate level education with no debt as a result and am doing quite well now after years of doing oddjobs and basically no money to my name. (There were times I had to feed myself for a week or more with literally $40 to my name.) There's nothing wrong with taking the ball and running with it.
It just means that trying to pass off your own experience as something anybody can do if they just want to badly enough is somewhat disingenuous. Someone from a significantly disadvantaged situation might not have gotten nearly as far as you did, even if they put in similar or even greater effort that you did. And there are many many many people in this country, millions, significantly disadvantaged compared to your origins.
Why is it when people point out advantages in the lives of conservative types they seem to take a sort of offense to it like we're discrediting them. As he said in his post, it is to your credit. No one's trying to say anything that happened to you was wrong. They're not discrediting your parents raising you or your hard work. I'm sure you worked hard.
The point is that not everyone has those opportunities that you did. The problem is that the same amount of work you might have put in won't work on everyone, or even most people. And just because you worked hard and got somewhere in life doesn't mean everyone that didn't get somewhere didn't work hard.
If only this were true for most of American citizens. It's becoming an increasingly rarer thing, and that's because the opportunities are drying up.
CornBurrito
Member
I'm assuming your father got a massive amount of benefits for his years of service?
kame-sennin
Member
My mom's a teacher and dad's a lawyer, so we have a bit in common. From my experience, I would argue that being the son of a lawyer gives you a significant advantage in becoming a lawyer. Even taking social connections and wealth out of the equation, simply growing up around someone who practices law conditions the mind to view the world in a legal context. Think about how much law you picked up from your dad just from casual conversations. This is an advantage many of your peers did not have.
I'm not trying to take anything away from you. You studied hard and you passed the bar, a lot of people don't. But none of us can ignore the advantages we inherit from our parents and how that shapes our opportunities for the rest of our lives.
I'm sure he had a lot of this. But did he receive any veteran's benefits to help him go to school?
If he went to public school, what educational opportunity did he have compared to a family that makes half his family's income? Less popularity in high school?
In fact the poor kids with amazing grades are the ones that are gonna be the ones with the potential to graduate with scholarships/grants and no debt.
My mother sure was successful in her youth, but after becoming disabled, she doesn't work, and I'm still ineligible to any sort of grants because of the money my stepfather makes (who doesn't live with my family, doesn't contribute a single dime to my living or educational expenses, and is in loads of debt himself and will probably lose his job soon anyway), so I will graduate with probably close to 80k in debt.
HarryHengst
Member
Ah yes, all those millions of people who cant find a job (hint: there are more people looking for a job than total jobs available) just lack the strength of wil to magically find a job.
You are basically saying this:
Only you are dead serious about it.
kame-sennin
Member
Poorer kids live in poorer neighborhoods with poorer schools. The education they receive is notably inferior.
This only works for a small percentage of students. Most will be saddled with very large debt after college.
GoutPatrol
Forgotten in his cell
iPhone released, 1 month later, banking system collapsed.
THE TIMING MAKES SENSE. Blame apple.
That's pretty much what the argument boils down to and it's so nonsensical that I have a hard time imagining even mildly intelligent people believe it. Whatever it takes to convince yourself that your political ideology isn't responsible for this mess, I suppose.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
My father routinely works between 70-100 hours a week as a self employed graphic designer. (and that's measured as actual working time, not "I'm on the clock in my own store but not doing anything time")
Yet we're considered middle class, and probably on the low end of that. Can someone like Manos explain to me, if the magic formula is "hard work = success", why my father isn't one of the most successful men in the country?
Yet we're considered middle class, and probably on the low end of that. Can someone like Manos explain to me, if the magic formula is "hard work = success", why my father isn't one of the most successful men in the country?
It's actually worse because it sounds like your dad's doing the work of two people.
You forgot to mention the "study hard" part of the Manos plan, so I assume there's your father's issue. If he slaps 20 hours of hard studying a week on top of that he can become rich.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
I could give you a reason, but you wouldn't like it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Has a degree from one of the most prestigious art schools in the country.
Manos: The Hands of Fate said:
Do tell
shanshan310
Member
They aren't "EuroBenefits" if almost all first world countries have them (Hint: there are first world countries outside of Europe and the USA, many of them are in Asia!).
And for the last time stop calling systems that help society "freebies". They are not freebies if I pay for them out of my tax. And you know what? I would happily put my tax dollars towards a good healthcare system and giving kids a better chance at life. (In Australia uni debts start getting deducted as a percentage of your wage once you start earning over 50 grand a year, which seems like an alright system to me). Its an investment in the future. The government exists for the benefit of the people.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
I feel like I couldn't do it without sounding insulting to your father and I never insult a man's family. I could give some reasons, but keep in mind it's based on general analysis and not trying to insult your father. Would that be alright? I'd be happy to PM them.
If you want to waste your money and call it an investment for others to get freebies that's fine with me.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'm interested in hearing them, and I won't take it as an insult. If you want to PM them, that's fine, but I may bring them up in this thread if I think there's dialogue to be had.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
If you want to bring them up that's fine, but I'll PM them first.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
By extension are you for the complete privatization of the public education system, or is there a reason why education is not considered a "freebie" but healthcare is?
shanshan310
Member
I think you just need to get out more. I can't think of many American brands off the top of my head, so America can't be doing so well either!
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Well, I guess this is my fault for trying to argue with the troll again. But FYI, the "dole-bludgers" problem is not nearly as big as you are saying it is.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Healthcare can often be provided by an employer if one is working full or even part time. Basic K-12 education cannot.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
From PM:
I actually don't disagree with anything you said here. I suspect its the first option, that my dad, while reasonably intelligent, isn't overtly business savvy. But now that's another factor to success to be accounted for. Now its not just "study hard, work hard", its "study hard, work hard, and be skilled in business". (and I do think the latter is going to be a requirement to climb very high in most generic companies, not just in self-employment situations)
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
I actually don't disagree with anything you said here. I suspect its the first option, that my dad, while reasonably intelligent, isn't overtly business savvy. But now that's another factor to success to be accounted for. Now its not just "study hard, work hard", its "study hard, work hard, and be skilled in business". (and I do think the latter is going to be a requirement to climb very high in most generic companies, not just in self-employment situations)
shanshan310
Member
(I was being sarcastic. The success of Entrepreneurs in one country vs. another has absolutely nothing to do with how many companies a person can think of).
So the only people who should have healthcare are the people who are able to work for a company that is big enough to afford it? Nice.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
Well I think you could roll skilled in business and study hard together. When I say study I mean it in a very generic sense. Some people study in school, some in apprentice positions, some from playing around Skyrim code to make the Macho Man to improve their coding. Maybe personal improvement would be a better way phrase it, I dunno. Thanks though for not being insulted. Like I said it's a very common issue.
el retorno
Member
That wasn´t my point. And I do get out a lot.
Google does tell me that we rank third though behind Canada and Denmark
And really Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr? Yes there are some in Europe but I was just trying to answer the question
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
shanshan310
Member
I was being sarcastic, of course I've heard of those companies (that wasn't my point either). but I apologise.
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