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Zelda: A Link Between Worlds |OT| All in all you're just another Link in the wall

KarmaCow

Member
How so?

Speed runs naturally need to avoid revisiting the same area multiple times if possible, so it's probably going to involve renting almost all the items at once. After that, it'll just be a matter of visiting each dungeon as quickly as possible in a circuit.

I don't expect there to be much debate on the most efficient purchasing order or anything like that. Heck they'll probably just do the rupee garden minigame over and over until they can rent everything (a high payout game I heard about on a review podcast).

Well you can easily warp from locations, so the time farming rupees seems like it would be a waste of time when you can normally gather rupees from dungeons instead of front loading it.

Still I doubt speed runs from moment to moment will be too interesting, though I do want to see the optimal path.
 
Posted this in the review thread, but not that OT is up going to repost.

After our Xbox One Launch stream this Friday, Kyle Bosman and I will be doing a "Nintendo is Next-Gen" Live Stream featuring a full play through of A Link Between Worlds (dungeon order dictated by chat) and Super Mario 3D World. Starts at 7pm PT.

http://www.twitch.tv/gametrailers
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Posted this in the review thread, but not that OT is up going to repost.

After our Xbox One Launch stream this Friday, Kyle Bosman and I will be doing a "Nintendo is Next-Gen" Live Stream featuring a full play through of A Link Between Worlds (dungeon order dictated by chat) and Super Mario 3D World. Starts at 7pm PT.

http://www.twitch.tv/gametrailers
1 3 5 7 2 4 6 8. Or something.
 
That seems kind of silly as a complaint to me. The "exploration to cut-scene ratio" of any particular Zelda game - even ones like SS or TP, which are probably the most intensive in this regard - is not very high. At most, 60 minutes of scenes across 30-50 hours of game time? At worst, like 5% of the game experience? I'd hardly consider that "tones of boring ass cutscenes," especially when those scenes can be useful for punctuating certain important moments or offering character development.

Zelda can have interesting stories and characters alongside world exploration; it's not one or the other, and I don't personally see (outside of bad examples like Phantom Hourglass or Spirit Tracks, which didn't particularly excel on either front) that the inclusion of story has squeezed out Zelda's other appeals. Besides, what's the point of exploring without some thematic principles to contextualize the experience? In my mind, that's what the best Zelda stories accomplish - establish a thematic framework (for Ocarina of Time, growing up; for Majora's Mask, the struggles of adult life; for Wind Waker, the tension between past and present) and integrate that framework throughout the game to give the whole experience more meaning and emotional depth, even if the plot itself is relatively simple and straightforward.

Anyway, we are bunkering down over here in preparation for this game. Five days cannot pass quickly enough.

The point you make about the cutscene-to-gameplay ratio I think is a valid one. Some people overstate the intrusiveness of cutscenes in games when they tend to take up relatively little time and can be a great tool to contextualise gameplay motivation. Saying that, from what I can gather from your post, you're a 3D Zelda fan primarily and I'm guessing you value those games' storytelling methods over those used by the 2D games from the NES to the Game Boy, i.e. very few "cut scenes" or none? While I think the placement and overall number of cut scenes is fine in modern Zelda games (although- dare I make the comparison- a Dark Souls system of extremely few cut scenes and NPC-driven plotting would be preferable), are you satisfied with how they are produced?

For me, it's not so much the presence of cutscenes that I find galling in the 3D Zelda games, it's the execution. Technically, they are idiosyncratic in that the player has to cycle through written dialogue as the character animations loop in the background- something that the 2D games get away with as there is a greater suspension of disbelief. However, the cinematic qualities they are trying to convey are undercut by these skimpy production values. In addition, mute Link is an awkward protagonist to watch in 3D, often limited to the "startled grunt" as his go to response to threats and one-sided conversations alike (with characters who incidentally tend to repeat a word or utterance as their only voice sample). Couple this with a tendency towards on-the-nose mawkishness when tackling emotional scenes and comic relief in the form of exaggerated Japanese anime tropes, I find that modern Zelda cut scenes have becomes stylistically predictable and do not match the quality of those from rival companies working today. While their core gameplay systems are unmatched, Nintendo are famously a company that creates these first and then grafts a perfunctory story on top. They are not masters of traditional storywriting and for me the cutscenes in later games expose all of their weaknesses. In the event that they don't buck these trends, the purportedly more stripped down storytelling experience that ALBW provides becomes a lot more appealing to me.
 
So, it seems Monolith Soft (almost certainly Monolith Kyoto) worked on this game, too. Interesting, in the two years since they opened, the Kyoto team has now worked on:

-Animal Crossing: New Leaf
-Pikmin 3
-The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds

It's almost certain now that they are exclusively an art-asset support studio for the Kyoto EAD teams. They're made up almost exclusively of artists and have no programmers or game designers to speak of.
 

Tookay

Member
The point you make about the cutscene-to-gameplay ratio I think is a valid one. Some people overstate the intrusiveness of cutscenes in games when they tend to take up relatively little time and can be a great tool to contextualise gameplay motivation. Saying that, from what I can gather from your post, you're a 3D Zelda fan primarily and I'm guessing you value those games' storytelling methods over those used by the 2D games from the NES to the Game Boy, i.e. very few "cut scenes" or none? While I think the placement and overall number of cut scenes is fine in modern Zelda games (although- dare I make the comparison- a Dark Souls system of extremely few cut scenes and NPC-driven plotting would be preferable), are you satisfied with how they are produced?

For me, it's not so much the presence of cutscenes that I find galling in the 3D Zelda games, it's the execution. Technically, they are idiosyncratic in that the player has to cycle through written dialogue as the character animations loop in the background- something that the 2D games get away with as there is a greater suspension of disbelief. However, the cinematic qualities they are trying to convey are undercut by these skimpy production values. In addition, mute Link is an awkward protagonist to watch in 3D, often limited to the "startled grunt" as his go to response to threats and one-sided conversations alike (with characters who incidentally tend to repeat a word or utterance as their only voice sample). Couple this with a tendency towards on-the-nose mawkishness when tackling emotional scenes and comic relief in the form of exaggerated Japanese anime tropes, I find that modern Zelda cut scenes have becomes stylistically predictable and do not match the quality of those from rival companies working today. While their core gameplay systems are unmatched, Nintendo are famously a company that creates these first and then grafts a perfunctory story on top. They are not masters of traditional storywriting and for me the cutscenes in later games expose all of their weaknesses. In the event that they don't buck these trends, the purportedly more stripped down storytelling experience that ALBW provides becomes a lot more appealing to me.

I'll grant you that Link being a mute has overstayed its welcome, as well as the lack of voice acting, but otherwise I disagree with you...

TWW ending spoilers:
The scene before the final battle where Ganondorf pines for his homeland, the finale, and the king's decision to die...
TP midpoint and ending spoilers:
Midna's near death experience, her growth throughout the game, and her decision at the end of TP to close the gateway between worlds...
SS ending spoilers:
Zelda's revelation as Hylia, the Impa time travel twist, Groose's development, and the end of SS in general...

... were all more effective bits of storytelling than most of the full-blown AAA Hollywood games this generation.
 

The Boat

Member
How so?

Speed runs naturally need to avoid revisiting the same area multiple times if possible, so it's probably going to involve renting almost all the items at once. After that, it'll just be a matter of visiting each dungeon as quickly as possible in a circuit.

I don't expect there to be much debate on the most efficient purchasing order or anything like that. Heck they'll probably just do the rupee garden minigame over and over until they can rent everything (a high payout game I heard about on a review podcast).
I expect them not to buy some items at all.
 

120v

Member
SS had an astounding story/cut scenes for a zelda game ... too bad the game itself had the problems it did.
 

RagnarokX

Member
I'll grant you that Link being a mute has overstayed its welcome, as well as the lack of voice acting, but otherwise I disagree with you...

TWW ending spoilers:
The scene before the final battle where Ganondorf pines for his homeland, the finale, and the king's decision to die...
TP midpoint and ending spoilers:
Midna's near death experience, her growth throughout the game, and her decision at the end of TP to close the gateway between worlds...
SS ending spoilers:
Zelda's revelation as Hylia, the Impa time travel twist, Groose's development, and the end of SS in general...

... were all more effective bits of storytelling than most of the full-blown AAA Hollywood games this generation.
add to that:

Spirit Tracks:
Zelda starts the game as a typical princess who expects Link to go on a journey by himself to rescue her body, but in traveling with him and aiding him on his quest she grows into every bit a hero as her partner. The scenes where Link and Zelda decide that they will see the journey to the end and everything revolving around the final battle are some of the best.

Groose was seriously one of the most surprising characters I've seen. Totally defied my expectations.
 

Tookay

Member
D'oh. Totally forgot ST. Actually that game's story was much better than I initially gave it credit for. Zelda was a great character; Byrne too.
 

Rich!

Member
awww fuuuuck. Friday is Xbone launch day, isn't it?

I've decided to buy my Zelda from GAME as I'm going into town anyway, but I'm gonna have to fight my way through all the dudebros

goddamnit
 

BorkBork

The Legend of BorkBork: BorkBorkity Borking
I'll grant you that Link being a mute has overstayed its welcome, as well as the lack of voice acting, but otherwise I disagree with you...

TWW ending spoilers:
The scene before the final battle where Ganondorf pines for his homeland, the finale, and the king's decision to die...
TP midpoint and ending spoilers:
Midna's near death experience, her growth throughout the game, and her decision at the end of TP to close the gateway between worlds...
SS ending spoilers:
Zelda's revelation as Hylia, the Impa time travel twist, Groose's development, and the end of SS in general...

... were all more effective bits of storytelling than most of the full-blown AAA Hollywood games this generation.

Yeah, console Zelda cutscenes have been excellent in hitting those emotional high notes, especially towards the conclusion, which is generally what matters most. Much feels.
 

Rich!

Member
I hope Link never starts talking.

He's an avatar of the player. A link to the person holding the controller. When I'm playing a Zelda game, it's me ass kicking those dungeons and climbing death mountain. Not some dude with a fucking irritating attitude and voice.
 
I find mute Link one of those weird anachronisms that just hasn't translated all that well into 3D, especially the later 3D ones with the more pronounced cinematic ambitions and elaborate storytelling. I know he's supposed to the avatar or whatever for the player, but seeing him in cutscenes with clearly defined likes and dislikes and a more vivid personality, the stronger a disconnect it creates for me. The Link in those cutscenes is not the Link that I'm playing, and we should probably stop pretending he is, its a bit awkward now.

Or maybe ditch most of the cutscenes and just tell all your story in-game so that disconnect isn't so noticeable.
Maybe put it in first person while you're at it so the player is always in the game
 
I hope Link never starts talking.

He's an avatar of the player. A link to the person holding the controller. When I'm playing a Zelda game, it's me ass kicking those dungeons and climbing death mountain. Not some dude with a fucking irritating attitude and voice.

Skyward and Wind Waker Links sort of break that, though. They have their own personalities.
 
I hope Link never starts talking.

He's an avatar of the player. A link to the person holding the controller. When I'm playing a Zelda game, it's me ass kicking those dungeons and climbing death mountain. Not some dude with a fucking irritating attitude and voice.

This would make more sense if the game was more like Half Life where it felt like you were the character, but the 3D Zelda stories have progressed to the point where it really makes no sense to have Link be silent. You see him in so many cutscenes that it is just weird that he is dead silent.
 

Rich!

Member
Skyward and Wind Waker Links sort of break that, though. They have their own personalities.

Yeah, so does the Link in Twilight Princess. It ties in with my personal opinion that I feel more detached from the story and presentation in the games post-Majora's Mask.

In Majora's Mask that situation felt real, and it felt personal to myself. Not to some character I was playing, but to me in person. Made it all the more personal and affecting.
 

Peru

Member
99% of video game voice acting takes me more away from the experience than a lack of voice acting. For other character it's a maybe - for Link himself it would be a disaster. Even if you don't see him as an extension of yourself - he's there to suck up all the info and lore and drama of the world, not to blabber on about his own take on things.
 

120v

Member
Link speaking would be like Crono speaking, or Jack from Bioshock speaking. the point is to put you in the shoes of the protagonist. and giving the protagonist too much of a distinct character distances yourself from him too much. though i admit it could be handled better, and i'm not against Link having ANY spoken dialogue at all
 

Rich!

Member
The only voice acting I've ever felt was acceptable to me in a game was Xenoblade's UK dub.

I'm not sure why.
 
Is there anyone left who doesn't at least think the rest of the cast should speak though? Even if Link is the extension of the character the rest of the cast being mute makes 0 sense.
 

Rich!

Member

Just Cause 2's VA is amazing just because they blatantly don't give a shit.

I admit though, I haven't heard much of it - I've only ever completed the bare minimum of missions, and I've spent the other 50+ hours recorded on my steam log playing it with infinite health/infinite ropes/unbreakable ropes mods, running around creating chaos

so much fun

Is there anyone left who doesn't at least think the rest of the cast should speak though? Even if Link is the extension of the character the rest of the cast being mute makes 0 sense.

Everyone else should talk. Nintendo should get the same UK team who oversaw Xenoblade to do it.
 
I just think they should stop half-assing it. Either Link is suppose to be me, a blank heroic slate with no discernible personality whatsoever for the player to cast himself on, or he's a living breathing character who's totally crushing on Llia in Twilight Princess with cornball romantic cutscenes and shit. I think the mute Link concept is something that worked better in the older 2D games. But that's just me and how I like Zelda. I haven't really cared about any of the 3D Zelda's narratives outside an individual moment here or there, so the increased lengths they go to tell these stories is kinda lost on me.
 

pariah164

Member
awww fuuuuck. Friday is Xbone launch day, isn't it?

I've decided to buy my Zelda from GAME as I'm going into town anyway, but I'm gonna have to fight my way through all the dudebros

goddamnit
Oh balls.

I just want to go in and pick up my game from GameStop; I have no interest in the Xbone. I do not want to freaking wait in a long-as-hell line just to pick up one game...
 
The only voice acting I've ever felt was acceptable to me in a game was Xenoblade's UK dub.

I'm not sure why.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUi2C_62zXY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUi2C_62zXY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33OqOgfhfP8



But my opinion on Zelda and voice acting is this. Guve all characters but Link a voice. Keep text boxes as well. Nintendo has proved that when they do voice acting its top notch (Other M aside). IF they want, you can even give characters vocie acting in Hylian, ala Pikmin 3 or Zelda singing in SS
 

Not

Banned
Voice acting, if done with care, would make the Zelda games infinitely better. There's never been a question in my mind. Nintendo's just afraid to take risks with the presentation.
 

Rich!

Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUi2C_62zXY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUi2C_62zXY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33OqOgfhfP8



But my opinion on Zelda and voice acting is this. Guve all characters but Link a voice. Keep text boxes as well. Nintendo has proved that when they do voice acting its top notch (Other M aside). IF they want, you can even give characters vocie acting in Hylian, ala Pikmin 3 or Zelda singing in SS

I didn't like Kid Icarus' VA. He annoyed the hell out of me.

don't kill me
 

Rich!

Member
Not even
Hades
or
Viridi
?

My faith in logic has been shattered.

Nah. It was all too shrill and too EXTREEEEME. Like, trying way too hard to be cool. Almost nu-sonic levels of cringe. For me, anyway.

I loved Xenoblade because Reyn sounds just like one of my mates, and that made the entire thing hilariously awesome.
 

RagnarokX

Member
Nah. It was all too shrill and too EXTREEEEME. Like, trying way too hard to be cool. Almost nu-sonic levels of cringe. For me, anyway.

I loved Xenoblade because Reyn sounds just like one of my mates, and that made the entire thing hilariously awesome.

First that Sonic 3 thread where you hated the game and the soundtrack and now this. I think you might need to get your ears checked :p
 

Jackano

Member
Those guys were a good little surprise I didn't want to spoil when talking about the music :/
But they don't play the regular version of the songs in the game, they play with guitar and flute only. It's very cool because you also can hear the little guy breath between notes.
Oh, and Kakariko Village is up now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUvJJosOe28
Don't know what took so much time on this one :) It has actually been slighty extented compared to the 1991 version so the two loops are > 4 mins.
 
awww fuuuuck. Friday is Xbone launch day, isn't it?

I've decided to buy my Zelda from GAME as I'm going into town anyway, but I'm gonna have to fight my way through all the dudebros

goddamnit

Once I realised it was the same day as the XboxOne launch, I just decided to order my Zelda online to be delivered. Don't want to be waiting ages at the store surrounded by people trading in stuff etc for the XboxOne.
 

Not

Banned
Once I realised it was the same day as the XboxOne launch, I just decided to order my Zelda online to be delivered. Don't want to be waiting ages at the store surrounded by people trading in stuff etc for the XboxOne.

I thiiiink I'm just gonna get mine during the daytime
 

Rich!

Member
Once I realised it was the same day as the XboxOne launch, I just decided to order my Zelda online to be delivered. Don't want to be waiting ages at the store surrounded by people trading in stuff etc for the XboxOne.

Yeah. Shit.

Problem is, Amazon UK aren't reliable enough. They delivered Pokemon X a day late, on the Saturday (was released on the Friday here). Shopto would likely send it a day before release, but I haven't made enough orders for it to be sent to my home address - it'd get sent to my billing address (my parents), and they're away next weekend.

So it's a pick up in person between either Tesco, GAME or Sainsburys. I think Sainsburys might be the best bet.
 
Yeah. Shit.

Problem is, Amazon UK aren't reliable enough. They delivered Pokemon X a day late, on the Saturday (was released on the Friday here). Shopto would likely send it a day before release, but I haven't made enough orders for it to be sent to my home address - it'd get sent to my billing address (my parents), and they're away next weekend.

So it's a pick up in person between either Tesco, GAME or Sainsburys. I think Sainsburys might be the best bet.

Got my pre-order with SimplyGames, they always send out their games early (first class) not sure if they are similar to Shopto in regards to changing delivery address on first few orders though - worth checking into though.
 

Rich!

Member
Got my pre-order with SimplyGames, they always send out their games early (first class) not sure if they are similar to Shopto in regards to changing delivery address on first few orders though - worth checking into though.

They take payment via paypal - that works for me.

cool, thanks!

edit: ordered! hopefully they do send the game out early/on time!
 

bronk

Banned
awww fuuuuck. Friday is Xbone launch day, isn't it?

I've decided to buy my Zelda from GAME as I'm going into town anyway, but I'm gonna have to fight my way through all the dudebros

goddamnit
I just realized this! Damnit I got mine at Gamestop.....sigh
 
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