Gherid__lacksGPS
Banned
Master race will be fine. Game will rock regardless of plaform. It's almost here. Get that lather ready, I'm randy as all hell and frothing at the mouth to bury my face into that sweet, sweet demon nectar.
Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade
- Thread starter Moral Panic
- Start date
rockman zx
Member
The 360 version will be the same right?.
Kind of makes sense if you look at the time line.
- Demoing the game with amazing, dynamic shadows everywhere, pitch black corridors, and specular highlights. (Bandai demoing the PC version, 'target render' for PS3/360).
- Break in PR.
- Announce PC version will ship later.
- Demos start again, people begin noticing the downgraded visuals. (Bandai demoing actual console version at this point).
- Console version ships.
- PR begins for the PC version, dynamic shadows everywhere, pitch black corridors, and specular highlights are back.
Here's the reveal demo showing why you need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY&t=2m58s
Here's the same section in the final game showing that you don't need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnErlYgKo8&t=2m55s
Ewww, that's just such a shame. I couldn't find footage of anyone actually going through that door so thanks for that.
The people saying no one gave a fuck about DeS or DS1 graphics are completely wrong. I care about graphics in the sense that they create mood, atmosphere and a sense of place. Both of the previous Souls games graphics were able to accomplish that better than almost any other series I can think of. Valley of Defilement would be completely ruined if you could clearly see where you were going, if you weren't feeling your way through the muck by trying to follow the glowing lights in the distance, if the rain and layers of grime weren't there. This stuff matters and I'm sick of this attitude that caring about this stuff is shameful. I think it stems from certain segments of the audience caring only about visual bells and whistles but that's a different thing entirely. I'm not asking for a technical marvel, I want good art and lighting is a HUGE part of that.
This game loses so much from this downgrade in terms of visual impact and sense of place. Visuals do matter a great deal, same as sound and music. People would absolutely complain if the game had elevator music during gameplay and your weapon didn't make any noise when you hit things, it would change the game dramatically and for the worse. I'm sure some people would try to defend it but come on, this lighting change is just bad. There's no shame in pointing it out. I have no problem whatsoever going back to PS1 titles either, this post isn't coming from a graphics whore at all.
I just want to experience the game as it was meant to be. No one can watch those two links and say the difference is minor, I mean come on! The torch is completely pointless now, literally pointless. You can just storm in there and those turtle knights aren't anywhere near as scary because you can just see everything clearly. And it's all fucking grey. I'm not trying to say the game is RUINED but this significantly impacts the gameplay and experience. No other way around it and it's really frustrating. This change means that significant portions of the game are spent walking through grey rooms and caves that probably should have been only navigable by using a torch. Terrible.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
I would hope for good news on the PC version if this weren't FROM Software. Probably the only developer to lock the resolution and framerate in a 3D game on the PC to force parity or some shit.
Yeah, I know they claim to be developing with PC as the lead platform this time, but I've never seen a graphical bait and switch like this before so close to launch. I'm skeptical.
Yeah, I know they claim to be developing with PC as the lead platform this time, but I've never seen a graphical bait and switch like this before so close to launch. I'm skeptical.
Curious_George
Neo Member
Not having the console version myself, I wonder how big of a hit we're talking about when a torch is out? Maybe during optimization they realized they couldn't get the performance they wanted while using the torch as a lighting source, but rather than remove it they chose to minimize its role in the game so players wouldn't have to spent so much time playing at a very low fps? Just speculating, but if even a single torch is a performance issue in the console versions it might have become a design problem they had to solve, possibly late in development.
KCroxtonJr
Member
They really should show a LEGIT video of the PC build ASAP. If the people who have decided to wait for the PC version because of the graphics wait 6 weeks just to find out the graphics are the same downgraded ones, all hell will break loose.
They should have kept it dark, but offer creative alternatives to work with it. It is true that being forced to use a torch in one hand often, and not use a shield could get fairly tedious. It's also a pretty amazing way to increase tension and suspense, and create a moody atmosphere.
Ideally, they'd let you drop the torch of the ground to light an area if need be. In addition, some kind of magical items that can be thrown to light areas like flares. In addition, a miracle that creates light. In addition, a spell that allows some kind of limited nightvision.
Instead of deleting the pitch black areas, they should have gone back to gameplay for ideas to provide options.
Ideally, they'd let you drop the torch of the ground to light an area if need be. In addition, some kind of magical items that can be thrown to light areas like flares. In addition, a miracle that creates light. In addition, a spell that allows some kind of limited nightvision.
Instead of deleting the pitch black areas, they should have gone back to gameplay for ideas to provide options.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
Ewww, that's just such a shame. I couldn't find footage of anyone actually going through that door so thanks for that.
The people saying no one gave a fuck about DeS or DS1 graphics are completely wrong. I care about graphics in the sense that they create mood, atmosphere and a sense of place. Both of the previous Souls games graphics were able to accomplish that better than almost any other series I can think of. Valley of Defilement would be completely ruined if you could clearly see where you were going, if you weren't feeling your way through the muck by trying to follow the glowing lights in the distance, if the rain and layers of grime weren't there. This stuff matters and I'm sick of this attitude that caring about this stuff is shameful. I think it stems from certain segments of the audience caring only about visual bells and whistles but that's a different thing entirely. I'm not asking for a technical marvel, I want good art and lighting is a HUGE part of that.
This game loses so much from this downgrade in terms of visual impact and sense of place. Visuals do matter a great deal, same as sound and music. People would absolutely complain if the game had elevator music during gameplay and your weapon didn't make any noise when you hit things, it would change the game dramatically and for the worse. I'm sure some people would try to defend it but come on, this lighting change is just bad. There's no shame in pointing it out. I have no problem whatsoever going back to PS1 titles either, this post isn't coming from a graphics whore at all.
I just want to experience the game as it was meant to be. No one can watch those two links and say the difference is minor, I mean come on! The torch is completely pointless now, literally pointless. You can just storm in there and those turtle knights aren't anywhere near as scary because you can just see everything clearly. And it's all fucking grey. I'm not trying to say the game is RUINED but this significantly impacts the gameplay and experience. No other way around it and it's really frustrating. This change means that significant portions of the game are spent walking through grey rooms and caves that probably should have been only navigable by using a torch. Terrible.
You're absolutely right, this isn't just a bit of a graphical downgrade, it substantially affects gameplay. I don't get why GAF isn't all over this, far worse than Watch_Dogs. If the PC version will end up like this, I might actually wait for a sale
but I probably won't, damn you From
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Normal Mapping, and looks like a DOF effect.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Normal Mapping, and looks like a DOF effect.
makingmusic476
Member
Why are some people saying graphics don't matter? The visual aesthetics and atmosphere were half of this series' appeal. Its visual package combined with its intricate level design, enemy design, world building, and gameplay made the series as incredible as it is.
The game suddenly looking as flat as it now does effects the overall package, most definitely. And I honestly think what we've seen of Dark Souls II looks worse than either Dark Souls or Demon's Souls. It's as if they overreached with what they thought they could achieve on consoles, and scaling back the lighting in order to reach appropriate levels of performance has left us with an overall package that feels lacking compared to its predecessors.
I am disappointed.
Edit:
The loss of detail on the archway and walls in the image above is even more dramatic than I thought.
The game suddenly looking as flat as it now does effects the overall package, most definitely. And I honestly think what we've seen of Dark Souls II looks worse than either Dark Souls or Demon's Souls. It's as if they overreached with what they thought they could achieve on consoles, and scaling back the lighting in order to reach appropriate levels of performance has left us with an overall package that feels lacking compared to its predecessors.
I am disappointed.
Edit:
The loss of detail on the archway and walls in the image above is even more dramatic than I thought.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Yeah, as someone waiting for the PC release, I'm going to be pissed as shit if it isn't very close to what was shown previously. This downgrade is gross.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Just like when hell broke loose the last time they released a PC version. Unfortunately for us, even Durante won't be able to fix these downgrades.
Spot on. The crazy thing is that it was shown running on PS3, actual legit working PS3's not some PC under the table. It looked awesome and didn't seem to run any worse.
So much wasted potential.
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Bump Mapping (?), and looks like a DOF effect.
This is downright infuriating. The torch game play was practically false advertising. This is absolutely unacceptable Bamco.
pedr0theli0n
Neo Member
this really sucks. I'm sure the core game is still great, but the look of things is just so disappointing. Its clear that the game was made with a certain lighting system in place and when you take it out (and at the last minute for that matter) you're left with a bland and ugly environment. Really hard to know whether to keep my preorder or not. If the PC version has the lighting system, it certainly sounds like it'd be worth the wait to play the game as it was intended.
Comfort Jones
Banned
Has it been confirmed that you never use the torch in any pitch dark area? Cuz that was a function in Dark Souls for a level, sorta. Thing is, we're going off the demo, which imo should not in anyway indicate what's going to actually ship for that segment.
You basically answered your own question.
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Bump Mapping (?), and looks like a DOF effect.
wow are we sure these are same places? This is crazy downgrade.
KCroxtonJr
Member
It will be much worse.
Last time the only did PC because people demanded it, after the game was already completed, and it was their first time as well.
This time they have been promising they know what they are doing with PC, and if it looks like the same game that is running on 9 year old hardware just with less jaggies and slightly better textures, oh man...
anyways, I'm done with the doom and gloom stuff lol. Tonight can't come any faster!
I got so much flak from people when I tried pointing this out a couple of days ago, glad to atleast finally have concrete proof that I wasn't making shit up. Sure you can point to some areas that look similar but the entire game has been affected by this change to varying degrees. It just doesn't look right...
Some effects have been downgraded too, water reflections aren't as nice and particle effects seemed to have taken a hit.
Can't wait for legit Mirror Knight comparisons.
This sucks. Someone from the press really needs to ask From what prompted the change.Here's the reveal demo showing why you need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY&t=2m58s
Here's the same section in the final game showing that you don't need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnErlYgKo8&t=2m55s
What evidence?
There's a good chance the PC version will see improved lighting, but I think it unlikely that From will ship a version with such a significant gameplay disparity as displayed above. It just doesn't happen.
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Bump Mapping (?), and looks like a DOF effect.
Amazing downgrade. It's like they subtracted a gen. Let's hope they're planning to unleash one hell of a day one patch.
Those two pictures really do sum up this cluster fuck.....
The tech in the bottom shot is the same as Everquest 1 (minus a tiny bit of AO).
Necromanti
Member
So is torch lightning simply no longer possible? If it's still in, then it would be nice to have a shot of someone standing in that same corridor with a lit torch. It's still night and day independent of the lighting, though.
Coreda
Member
So far this is only about the changes in the console versions, right? I'm actually amazed the earlier version of the lighting could have even been pulled off on the PS3's hardware tbh.
That capture Grief posted a few above is a pretty stark difference though, if it's the same area.
That capture Grief posted a few above is a pretty stark difference though, if it's the same area.
EatinOlives
Member
From earlier in the thread:
maybe they want us tu use the torch lightning system, lightning a torch in a room completely changes the lightning from bland and lifeless to yellow bright light and if you die the torch stays on. I made some shots.
without torch
with torch
this torch stays on forever
same here
The top picture perfectly conveys a feeling of adventure and of heading into the dangerous unknown in search of treasure.
The bottom picture perfectly represents the feeling of having to go fetch a bottle of wine from your rich uncle's boring old wine cellar.
Here's the reveal demo showing why you need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JFDPCtXFY&t=2m58s
Here's the same section in the final game showing that you don't need to use a torch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vnErlYgKo8&t=2m55s
Holy shit, that's a staggering difference.
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Bump Mapping (?), and looks like a DOF effect.
What would the console image look like if the character were holding a torch?
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Bump Mapping (?), and looks like a DOF effect.
I watched those 2 vids earlier today and I thought the same thing.
The top one has to be the PC version. I mean that's not even a slight downgrade, but 2 different versions of the game.
The dynamic lighting and torches are still in. Only problem is it causes frame rate to tank, you can see the frame rate just drop as soon as he enters this room in the video.
From probably tweaked the darkness to drop the requirement for players to use torches.
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Bump Mapping (?), and looks like a DOF effect.
You can tell their using higher resolution texture with such a heavily compressed screengrab?
Can we at least get some proper shots of the same location with uncompressed footage... (btw bump mapping died out last generation)
To be honest with you, mid-range rigs are already a generation ahead of the next-gen consoles (PS4/XBO), let alone 360 and PS3.
What is the effect to describe the raised look of the textures?
Usually you would call that tessellation, but I believe there is a cheaper way to achieve that effect.
mickcenary
Member
This is what I'm thinking. The backlash from the console crowd for enhancing the PC version beyond graphical bells and whistles, resolution, etc will be more damaging than the inverse; and personally, not having a gaming PC myself, I'd be extremely pissed if the PC crowd were given such a disparately better product.
I think we're all going to have to settle for a reasonably ugly and significantly downgraded game, sadly.
Personification of what the consoles have been doing in the industry for years anyways.
Holding potential back due to the reliance on severely outdated technology.
Metalingus5150
Member
Maybe when they released the screenshots earlier that looked like shit, they were really showing how the game looked.
.-.
.-.
There's only so much you can do with nearly decade year old hardware.
This is From's fault for saying the lighting engine was running on PS3/360. It's obvious they didn't do enough QA and had to change it for the final release. If the PC version get's gimped because of nearly 10 year old hardware, I will be fucking pissed.
cheezcake
Member
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Bump Mapping (?), and looks like a DOF effect.
Lol different or changed area, wooden steps in first shot, stone steps in second. Not to mention the torch is being used in the first picture and not the second.
blighttown level performance later in the game almost definitely was the cause
When you carve out a vertical slice for demo purposes you're afforded much more leeway in optimization vs being forced to maintain that level of detail over an entire game. Just because you can afford all those effects @ 30fps in an enclosed hallway doesn't mean you can maintain them anywhere near that framerate in a large open area like the tower of latria or something.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Just for case in point of what I am talking about, the differences between the demo and the final console build are pretty massive.
Textures look higher resolution, Specular Highlights, increased Dynamic Shadows, pitch-black background, Bump Mapping (?), and looks like a DOF effect.
Wow.
This makes Gearbox look like Naughty Dogs.
I bet the directors really wish they played the development more safely
The torch mechanic was present in one area of Dark Souls and didn't need to leave that one area - I don't know why they thought the torch/dark mechanic was needed so badly throughout the game. It seemed to work nicely in that one section of the reveal footage - it changes up the situation and forces the player to adapt, etc, but that tells us nothing about how much it was originally featured over the course of the entire game. It could be that cutting out "dark" sections was a good thing... in the early days of design, but since it was cut late (well after areas that used it were already polished/seemingly finished) it ironically worsened the quality.
Think back to the beta - there was an area the developers said needed the use of the torch.
Apparently, that entire area is now lit up enough to see everywhere. What else is gone? The enemies from that beta - apparently the enemies from that level were swapped out for different ones and placed in a different section where apparently they don't visually "fit". Could that be more evidence that FROM had to quickly change some level design around, based on the fact the player now had the advantage of seeing better?
The torch mechanic was present in one area of Dark Souls and didn't need to leave that one area - I don't know why they thought the torch/dark mechanic was needed so badly throughout the game. It seemed to work nicely in that one section of the reveal footage - it changes up the situation and forces the player to adapt, etc, but that tells us nothing about how much it was originally featured over the course of the entire game. It could be that cutting out "dark" sections was a good thing... in the early days of design, but since it was cut late (well after areas that used it were already polished/seemingly finished) it ironically worsened the quality.
Think back to the beta - there was an area the developers said needed the use of the torch.
Apparently, that entire area is now lit up enough to see everywhere. What else is gone? The enemies from that beta - apparently the enemies from that level were swapped out for different ones and placed in a different section where apparently they don't visually "fit". Could that be more evidence that FROM had to quickly change some level design around, based on the fact the player now had the advantage of seeing better?
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