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[Shaneus]

Just read the thread and the synopsis of the budget. We're through the looking glass here people.

Also, people threatening to move to the UK or Canada be aware that the UK has its own austerity-addled politicians and that Canada is very much influenced by its right-wing neighbour to the south. New Zealand is pretty much your only option within the Anglosphere. Good luck.

Hey, at least we get an R-rating for games and same-sex marriages in In Zud.

 

[?oe?oe]

So ah... when's the next election?

Abbott's policies were already terrible before election and now they're even worse.

 

[Jintor]

Well not entirely in the name of the deficit - Gutting universal healthcare appears to be primarily ideological, no matter what research fund they're claiming they're making

 

[Elaugaufein]

Well not entirely in the name of the deficit - Gutting universal healthcare appears to be primarily ideological, no matter what research fund they're claiming they're making

Well it could be a pot sweetener to potential buyers of medicare private rather than purely ideological.

 

[WayneMorse]

Well not entirely in the name of the deficit - Gutting universal healthcare appears to be primarily ideological, no matter what research fund they're claiming they're making

The privatization doesn't come until after the next election victory.

Welp, it was nice knowing ya Australia, another great country bites the dust to the neolibs, but what really makes me sad is that they're winning everything. Canada, the UK, all of Scandinavia, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, have all fallen to the radical right. We're truly fucked.

 

[Jintor]

Well it could be a pot sweetener to potential buyers of medicare private rather than purely ideological.

It's closer to a river poisoner than a pot sweetener...

 

[DrSlek]

 

[Jintor]

Hah, and the whole reason of reduction of funding to the states is basically to prime them for setting up GST changes in the next election, too.

(Photoshopped picture or not)

 

[Quasar]

Well not entirely in the name of the deficit - Gutting universal healthcare appears to be primarily ideological, no matter what research fund they're claiming they're making

To me it seems that and education cuts are a deliberate ploy to get premiers to agree to raise/expand the gst.

 

[Shaneus]

I'm a bit over the obvious photoshops of that particular image

 

[HolyCheck]

Well we can at least get the basic facts down:

Those under 25 now apply for Youth Allowance, not Newstart.

Those between 25-30 who have not previously held a job will have a 6 month period of no payment whilst they go through the Governments employment services.

Those between 25-30 who have held a job previously will be eligible immediately, based on how long they have worked in the past.

Exceptions to the waiting period include: parenthood, disability, apprentices and I believe people under a certain age.

can some one explain to me why you're all having a fit over the above?

it sounds fine to me unless i'm reading it wrong?

I'm 26, I lose my job, I get payments for 6 months. If I don't have a new job at the end of the 6 months, well thats my own fault.

you were making it sound like if i lost my job tomorrow i can't get any government help for 6 months?

and it sounds like students can apply for youth allowance? as most people who finish their degrees are under 25.

 

[Jintor]

It takes a month off the 6-month wait per year you've been working beforehand. Consider during the six months you have to be doing constant bureaucratic nonsense to either be 'work for dole'-ing and you won't have the newstart money to support you while you're job-searching so better hope you have savings or someone to rely on.

Remember youth allowance is like $100 a fortnight or something negligible - utterly useless if you're renting.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

can some one explain to me why you're all having a fit over the above?

it sounds fine to me unless i'm reading it wrong?

I'm 26, I lose my job, I get payments for 6 months. If I don't have a new job at the end of the 6 months, well thats my own fault.

you were making it sound like if i lost my job tomorrow i can't get any government help for 6 months?

and it sounds like students can apply for youth allowance? as most people who finish their degrees are under 25.

That's right, unemployment is caused by the personal failings of those looking for work, not because there aren't enough jobs or anything like that. We all know that welfare moochers just spend their money on illegal drugs, so perhaps going six months without payment will force them to draw on the savings accounts their parents set up for them and actually spend money in the real economy, thus increasing prosperity.

 

[AdventureRacing]

It takes a month off the 6-month wait per year you've been working beforehand. Consider during the six months you have to be doing constant bureaucratic nonsense to either be 'work for dole'-ing and you won't have the newstart money to support you while you're job-searching so better hope you have savings or someone to rely on.

Remember youth allowance is like $100 a fortnight or something negligible - utterly useless if you're renting.

Utterly useless for anything really.

 

[HolyCheck]

It takes a month off the 6-month wait per year you've been working beforehand. Consider during the six months you have to be doing constant bureaucratic nonsense to either be 'work for dole'-ing and you won't have the newstart money to support you while you're job-searching so better hope you have savings or someone to rely on.

Remember youth allowance is like $100 a fortnight or something negligible - utterly useless if you're renting.

yeh didn''t knwo how much youth allowance is, ill admit, i've never had to get any hand outs.

and yep that year per month thing is a bit shit. i mean at least make it.. 3 months per month.

so i cant just be fired then get money? i have to be fired, then go do some menial 25 hour a week job with what are likely, not the sharpest tools in the shed?


i'm still not clear on this:

to either be 'work for dole'-ing and you won't have the newstart money to support you while you're job-searching so better hope you have savings or someone to rely on.

yet again you're saying I WONT have money to support me, in my instance, i've been working full time for 6 years.

if I lose my job tomorrow, what will I / won't I get? what will i have to do?

 

[Jintor]

yet again you're saying I WONT have money to support me, in my instance, i've been working full time for 6 years.

i.e. savings. You might be able to survive on savings. What if you're 27 and have kids to support? Savings get eaten pretty fast y'know

 

[HolyCheck]

i.e. savings. You might be able to survive on savings. What if you're 27 and have kids to support? Savings get eaten pretty fast y'know

no here's where you've lost me.

from my understanding you're saying I dont get anymoney from the government for my situation. but the guy i quoted above says i do?

 

[Arksy]

i.e. savings. You might be able to survive on savings. What if you're 27 and have kids to support? Savings get eaten pretty fast y'know

I think you've got other options if you've got kids...

 

[Jintor]

I think you've got other options if you've got kids...

Truedat

no here's where you've lost me.

from my understanding you're saying I dont get anymoney from the government for my situation. but the guy i quoted above says i do?

I'll recheck.

During the mandatory six-month waiting period the young unemployed person will be required to participate in a government-funded ''job search and employment services activities''. If he or she has previously been employed, the six-month waiting period will be discounted - for every year of previous employment, a month will be taken off the waiting period.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/business/fede...to-get-dole-20140513-388di.html#ixzz31e3lNlGt

You WILL still have to do 25-hour p/week 'work for dole' to qualify for newstart though. I'm not sure if that means after the six month period or during it. Hmmm... it seems to be after. During the six month waiting you need to be job searching though.

So if you've been working f-time for six years, you can go straight to newstart, but you have to do 25-hours p/week on 'work for dole' on top of looking for a new job etc

 

[HolyCheck]

Ok so yes, if i lose my job i'll get handout money.

You WILL still have to do 25-hour p/week 'work for dole' to qualify for newstart though. I'm not sure if that means after the six month period or during it.

I hope not. fuck that. I'd be fine with it if it was after the 6 months. but right away? gah, that would be prime holiday time.


ty jint


edit: and with your edit you've contradicted yourself in the same post. i'm out ;_; ill just make sure to keep my job.

 

[Jintor]

as I recall work for dole is charged at below minimum wage too lol

christ

edit: and with your edit you've contradicted yourself in the same post. i'm out ;_; ill just make sure to keep my job.

? No contradiction there.

During the six month waiting, you need to be job searching to qualify for newstart after, but you won't get any money.

In your case, because you've worked full time for six years, you get discounted on the waiting period by six months. So you can go straight to newstart, but you still have to do work-for-dole.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

I think you've got other options if you've got kids...

Sell them?

Anyway Arksy I'd just like to say that I'm a fan of this post of yours:

Basically.

I'm quite upset because I think the idea of a smaller government and more economic freedom is an something adults can have reasoned debates about and there is an entirely defensible position on both sides with plenty of instances where different ideas have worked. It's just annoying that they decided to try to pull the wool over our eyes with this whole concocted budget emergency.

I believe I said something similar to you a while back (after Abbott's Davos speech I think?) and I'm glad it's something we agree on.

as I recall work for dole is charged at below minimum wage too lol

christ

$8.29/h for YA (at the maximum rate), $10.20/h for Newstart.

 

[Arksy]

The dole shouldn't be below minimum wage??

We have quite high minimum wage here in Aust, and there SHOULD be some incentive for people to get off it and back into work when they're able to do so. I feel like having welfare too similar to the minimum wage would make dependency more likely.

 

[Elaugaufein]

The dole shouldn't be below minimum wage??

We have quite high minimum wage here in Aust, and there SHOULD be some incentive for people to get off it and back into work when they're able to do so. I feel like having welfare too similar to the minimum wage would make dependency more likely.

If its purely support while you look for work , then yes , it should be below the minimum wage given that its still enough to survive on without physical or mental health issues (as you said incentive) .

If you actually have to perform work for it , then those hours should be at the minimum wage (to avoid perverse incentives on behalf of government/business).

 

[Jintor]

Hmm. I see the logic of what you're saying, but I feel like the 25-hour compulsory work-for-dole requirement is really going to negatively impact those looking for work at the same time. Looking for work is itself pretty much a full time endeavour, at least from my limited experience so far - it was near impossible to keep up with while doing a course load (and my course load was pretty lenient compared to 25-hour p/week)

 

[A More Normal Bird]

The dole shouldn't be below minimum wage??

We have quite high minimum wage here in Aust, and there SHOULD be some incentive for people to get off it and back into work when they're able to do so. I feel like having welfare too similar to the minimum wage would make dependency more likely.

Just to clarify, the work you do whilst on the dole is paid at below the minimum wage. Surely the incentive to get off the dole comes from the fact that if you don't look for work they cut it off, and now they'll cut it off after six months anyway?

 

[Arksy]

I believe I said something similar to you a while back (after Abbott's Davos speech I think?) and I'm glad it's something we agree on.

I remember that. Absolutely. The quality of debate is very important. I mean being hung up on whether we're in a budget emergency isn't actually a brilliant argument. We should be asking questions like;

Is it really necessary to lift the retirement age to 70? We just raised it to 67 under the ALP, and it's a harsh reality that we have an aging population that are going to need to be taken care of and not much of a younger generation to raise taxes from, but is 70 too extreme?

Isn't raising the petrol excise completely irresponsible because it will have an aggregate impact on costs? Won't the costs of petrol generally make everything more expensive?

Is cutting the size of the APS the right thing to do, in principle?

 

[wonzo]

Sort of cross-posted from the AusPol thread.....

I honestly think that there is a potential for blocked supply....Palmer is a bit of a loose cannon and I think the ALP would basically be betraying their base by allowing it through.

I've seen some Labor Party hacks argue the budget should be put implemented in its entirety so the voters can get what they voted for. Yeah…

 

[Arksy]

Just to clarify, the work you do whilst on the dole is paid at below the minimum wage. Surely the incentive to get off the dole comes from the fact that if you don't look for work they cut it off, and now they'll cut it off after six months anyway?

If its purely support while you look for work , then yes , it should be below the minimum wage given that its still enough to survive on without physical or mental health issues (as you said incentive) .

If you actually have to perform work for it , then those hours should be at the minimum wage (to avoid perverse incentives on behalf of government/business).

Yepyep. In total agreement with both of you here.

I'm a bit lost, I had assumed the dole was just unemployment benefit, you shouldn't be working to attain unemployment benefit, seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms.

 

[r1chard]

I honestly think that there is a potential for blocked supply....Palmer is a bit of a loose cannon and I think the ALP would basically be betraying their base by allowing it through.

But the ALP are spineless and have a history of betraying their base

 

[SmartBase]

I've seen some Labor Party hacks argue the budget should be put implemented in its entirety so the voters can get what they voted for. Yeah…

Even though these cuts affect me directly, I agree with them letting it go through. It's the budget the people deserve.

 

[Mr. Tone]

Even though these cuts affect me directly, I agree with them letting it go through. It's the budget the people deserve.

Cutting off your nose to spite your face?

 

[Arksy]

Actually no that's bullshit.

We (we being the Australian public at large) voted for very specific platform that said no cuts to heath, education and the ABC, no new taxes and no surprises. The ALP giving this a free pass is not only betraying the voters who actually voted for them (still a sizable chunk of the country despite their thrashing in the polls), it's an abject failure in their role as opposition to hold the government to account for their actions.

What I think of the budget is quite frankly, immaterial and the ALP is right, we should get what we voted for........

But no one voted for this.

 

[SmartBase]

Actually no that's bullshit.

We (we being the Australian public at large) voted for very specific platform that said no cuts to heath, education and the ABC, no new taxes and no surprises. The ALP giving this a free pass is not only betraying the voters who actually voted for them (still a sizable chunk of the country despite their thrashing in the polls), it's an abject failure in their role as opposition to hold the government to account for their actions.

What I think of the budget is quite frankly, immaterial and the ALP is right, we should get what we voted for........

But no one voted for this.

I just don't see how this budget should surprise anyone. The Coalition said they'd fix the "budget emergency" and here they are doing that. I think they stopped the boats too, haven't heard about any new arrivals in a while.

 

[HolyCheck]

Truedat



I'll recheck.



You WILL still have to do 25-hour p/week 'work for dole' to qualify for newstart though. I'm not sure if that means after the six month period or during it. Hmmm... it seems to be after. During the six month waiting you need to be job searching though.

So if you've been working f-time for six years, you can go straight to newstart, but you have to do 25-hours p/week on 'work for dole' on top of looking for a new job etc

This is the contradiction unless I'm reading it wrong?

But in the first bolded sentence you tell me I won't have to work for the dole until after 6 months. Then you go on to confirm that I do have to do it?

 

[bodyboarder]

I never saw the point of work for the dole, I can't see people forced to do it doing their "jobs" in a satisfactory manner. Glorified slave labour never seemed like a good motivator.

If being forced to go sit and wait at a centrelink office once a fortnight isn't motivation enough to get a job, I don't know what is.

 

[roosters93]

This is the contradiction unless I'm reading it wrong?

But in the first bolded sentence you tell me I won't have to work for the dole until after 6 months. Then you go on to confirm that I do have to do it?

It's not a contradiction because the waiting period (first paragraph) doesn't apply to you remember. You personally would need to work for the dole, you'd just be able to do that immediately.

The smh article jint linked says it most clearly. (well the default situation without reduction from previous work)

"Young people wishing to sign onto the dole will be forced to wait six months before they receive a cent of government money, after which they will have to work for the dole for another six months before either getting a job, or getting cut off again for another six months"

 

[Goldenhen]

This is the contradiction unless I'm reading it wrong?

But in the first bolded sentence you tell me I won't have to work for the dole until after 6 months. Then you go on to confirm that I do have to do it?

He is saying that if you want money from Centrelink then you have to Work for the dole for the money.

So if you were told you have to wait 6 months then you don't do work for the dole til you start receiving money from Centrelink.

But if you were told you can start receiving the money straight away then you have to do work for the dole straight away.

 

[Jintor]

I just don't see how this budget should surprise anyone. The Coalition said they'd fix the "budget emergency" and here they are doing that. I think they stopped the boats too, haven't heard about any new arrivals in a while.

I am interested to see if this inhumane bullshit actually is effective in stopping asylum seekers. But I don't trust the government enough to say just because I haven't heard of boats coming didn't mean they're not there. The media controls over asylum seeker related issues are draconian.

 

[tri_willy]

I just don't see how this budget should surprise anyone. The Coalition said they'd fix the "budget emergency" and here they are doing that. I think they stopped the boats too, haven't heard about any new arrivals in a while.

what is reported in the media and what actually happens are two separate things.

 

[Dryk]

We (we being the Australian public at large) voted for very specific platform that said no cuts to heath, education and the ABC, no new taxes and no surprises.

And the public was incredibly foolish for thinking that they were running on that platform. It doesn't matter what they say, they were always going to make those cuts.

 

[bomma_man]

A bit of a wrap up of all the shit I've been reading today

A good overview of the changes to the health system

Q: You have applied a $7 Medicare co-payment to GP visits. That would seem likely to encourage more people to go to a hospital emergency department when they are sick to avoid paying that fee. That also seems to support the argument the states are making about cost shifting. For the record, should people be able to go to a hospital emergency department for free now that they would have to pay a GP fee as an alternative – or should the states apply a fee to those visits?

You are asking questions that the states should answer because they run the hospitals, we don't.

The Hockey questions continue. He's asked about a tradie who might not be able to find a job, then finds himself with no income because he can't get the dole.

The treasurer says that tradie must learn or earn.

Hockey gets a question about whether the government's 'sharing the burden' rationale fails on two grounds. One, the deficit tax is a relatively small an impost on higher income earners compared to the imposts faced by those on welfare or on lower incomes; and two, it's an impost that will only last three years, whereas the impost on those on lower income and reliant on welfare is permanent?

Hockey:

Hopefully it's not permanent for people who rely on welfare. Hopefully with family payments, their children grow up. The fact they will have a permanent impact is wrong.

what

Th overall effect on the economy

Similarly, although bush economists might be attracted by “work for the dole” schemes, and these are likely to reduce claims for unemployment benefits, the evidence shows that these schemes hinder people finding proper long-term jobs. Combined with uncapped university fees and charging real interest for student loans, which may start to deter people from going to university, this budget could reduce how much Australia’s workforce produces in the long term.

The government’s controversial Paid Parental Leave Scheme remains in the budget, although you would need a microscope to find it buried in the budget papers as an “other” variation from the November economic statement. The best one can hope is that it never eventuates – and if the company tax changes that were to part-fund the scheme don’t happen, then the budget will get a collective boost of $4 billion a year. That money could be put to better use making childcare more affordable.

The budget’s main claim to economic responsibility is its new infrastructure spending, about $3 billion in 2016-17. That is smaller than you might think if you listened to the announced package, which conflates spending over a number of years, as well as already announced spending. And the claimed economic benefits may be much smaller than assumed.

Not one of the material projects getting new money from the government is rated by Infrastructure Australia as “ready to proceed” – indeed not one even falls into their “on the threshold” category. Many are not even rated as projects with “real potential”.

The rigorous independent cost-benefit analysis of projects simply hasn’t been done. Given past experience, we should be sceptical about accepting politicians’ claims that their instincts are a good substitute.

and

The answer is that it will probably have very little effect this year. The economy has been gradually recovering in the aftermath of the resources boom and global financial crisis, so recovery might be delayed somewhat but the changes in the budget settings are not likely to be big enough to have much effect.

One consequence may well be that the Reserve Bank of Australia decides to keep interest rates lower for longer, to encourage people to borrow and spend, offsetting any contractionary effect from the budget. The Australian dollar might also fall as a consequence, since foreigners will be less inclined to send their money here if they expect lower interest rates. The effect of these changes would be to support domestic spending and working to negate any contractionary effect of the budget.

The budget forecasts are for subdued growth and low inflation. Treasury is forecasting a slight pick-up in household spending but offset by a significant contraction in (especially mining) investment. Nominal GDP is forecast to grow at just 3% next year, which means that businesses are unlikely to see top-line revenue growth much in excess of this level. And wages growth will also be around 3%, just marginally faster than consumer price inflation.

Some degree of optimism I guess?

That aspiration was not all that different to some of the noises that came from another Liberal treasurer delivering his first budget all of 18 years ago. Back then, Peter Costello introduced big cuts to Labor programs and explained his mission in similar epochal terms.

Within five years, various brushes with political mortality shifted the balance inside that government and persuaded Costello’s prime minister, John Howard, to jettison the small-government, tough-medicine talk and to embrace the open-chequebook approach for any voting bloc that looked like it might be getting a little bit wobbly. This proved to be something of an addiction for voters and for Howard.

As has been observed by several commentators already, Hockey is repudiating not just Labor’s sometimes cack-handed version of social democracy but Howard’s late-era government-is-here-to-help-you-out method too.

The question now is: having finally seen what the Abbott government is all about – and what it really wants to do rather than what it said it would do in order to avoid potholes on the way to the election – will the community want to join Hockey in his mission?

I really don't think Australian's have (so far) shown that they will swallow conservative idealogical crap, unlike some of their American counterparts. But of course that may change.

Michelle Gratton

The budget sharply defines the nature of the Abbott government, but it raises questions about the Prime Minister himself and points to the way he has changed.

The man who as health minister wanted the Commonwealth to take responsibility for hospitals is now determined to push as much of the burden of them as possible back onto the states.

Abbott not so long ago was seen as the cautious pragmatist, but in this budget the government has made a raft of risky decisions that, if they hold over the long run, would have quite transformational effects on Australia.

And of course Abbott, after building a whole election campaign around the issue of trust, has been willing to break trust in a massive way - with his temporary income tax levy on the rich and the reintroduction of fuel excise indexation - apparently having faith that in the long run trust can play second fiddle to good performance.

 

[Dryk]

A bit of a wrap up of all the shit I've been reading today

A good overview of the changes to the health system

He either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the realities of social mobility and job seeking.

 

[EatChildren]

He either doesn't understand or doesn't care about the realities of social mobility and job seeking.

Hockey is human garbage who lied and manipulated the population during the Libs entire election campaign. I suspect he fully understands the reality and outright does not give a shit because it's not him.

 

[SmartBase]

I am interested to see if this inhumane bullshit actually is effective in stopping asylum seekers. But I don't trust the government enough to say just because I haven't heard of boats coming didn't mean they're not there. The media controls over asylum seeker related issues are draconian.

what is reported in the media and what actually happens are two separate things.

Just to be clear those last two sentences of mine were sarcastic. I still don't think the budget should surprise anyone, but maybe I'm just too much of a cynic.

 

[mjontrix]

Hockey is human garbage who lied and manipulated the population during the Libs entire election campaign. I suspect he fully understands the reality and outright does not give a shit because it's not him.

Well he's acting like a child - so I'll leave him to you EatChildren

 

[Aarglefarg]

I never saw the point of work for the dole, I can't see people forced to do it doing their "jobs" in a satisfactory manner. Glorified slave labour never seemed like a good motivator.

If being forced to go sit and wait at a centrelink office once a fortnight isn't motivation enough to get a job, I don't know what is.

I do work for the dole. It devalues my work (which I am good at). It is in the field I am trained in (bachelor's degree and I did a full-fee certificate IV course in a similar field to increase my employability) and they would have hired me long ago if they didn't have me for free. And a supply of free people to replace me reduces my power. Early this year, they started saying they were applying for funding for my position. But only part time, as they wanted me to continue with work for the dole there the remainder of the week! I calculated it as being 50% more pay for double the work, but I was still excited. But that didn't end up happening since they are closing down.

Though I don't go to Centrelink once a fortnight, as I report online.

 

[Dryk]

Early this year, they started saying they were applying for funding for my position. But only part time, as they wanted me to continue with work for the dole there the remainder of the week!

That's the most unethical shit I've heard all day, and I've read parts of the budget

 

[hidys]

I've seen some Labor Party hacks argue the budget should be put implemented in its entirety so the voters can get what they voted for. Yeah…

Well unless the ALP want to cause a constitutional crisis then yes, they should let the budget through.

Interesting to note that this budget doesn't even cut spending as much as Swan's 2012-2013 budget, despite all the nasty shit in it.

 

[bomma_man]

I do work for the dole. It devalues my work (which I am good at). It is in the field I am trained in (bachelor's degree and I did a full-fee certificate IV course in a similar field to increase my employability) and they would have hired me long ago if they didn't have me for free. And a supply of free people to replace me reduces my power. Early this year, they started saying they were applying for funding for my position. But only part time, as they wanted me to continue with work for the dole there the remainder of the week! I calculated it as being 50% more pay for double the work, but I was still excited. But that didn't end up happening since they are closing down.

Though I don't go to Centrelink once a fortnight, as I report online.

Just to reiterate, this is the budget's - and neoliberal economics as a whole's - raison d'être: improving the position of capital at the expense of labour.