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[Karkador]

He most likely would not have held these views if society did not, to a degree, tolerate misogyny.

I think its more so the individual communities and pockets of internet that foster those views and nod along with him. Society at large was probably more so just barely tolerating, or not wanting to be involved with, this weirdo. That he got his ass kicked once or twice seems to indicate that some people thought he was a piece of shit.

 

[User 100115]

I suppose we're both selectively looking at different aspects of what he said. He also said that women were repulsed by him and looked down on him and he didn't understand why. He mentioned a lot about how he had tried to improve himself to make himself more attractive to women. He claimed he wanted to prove he is worthy of their affection. The latter statement suggest he was putting women on a pedestal in that he felt he had to show he was worthy to them. It's contradictory,

I will say though that when he states being the 'superior gentleman', or 'superior alpha-male' he is claiming why he is better than all the other guys he sees as 'obnoxious brutes'. I don't entirely see it as conclusive proof that he grew up believing he was somehow entitled to women through simple fact of being a man.

And in terms of the mental illness part of it, that is simply my own perception of how some of reacted to it in this thread and it's not necessarily aimed at you. Not necessarily that they completely dismiss that side, but they feel it isn't the real focus.

However, in terms of Rodger, there is evidence to suggest that his conclusion to things were influenced from in a large part by his own mental instability.

He did all of those things and never actually approached a woman. He threw coffee on some women standing at a bus stop because he smiled at them while driving by, and they didn't smile back. He saw THAT sort of interaction as rejection. Rejection from women didn't drive him to hate them, the way he believed women were supposed to act and didn't drove him to hate them.

 

[A Human Becoming]

D:

Full of Batman talk and Columbia.

 

[leadbelly]

He did all of those things and never actually approached a woman. He threw coffee on some women standing at a bus stop because he smiled at them while driving by, and they didn't smile back. He saw THAT sort of interaction as rejection. Rejection from women didn't drive him to hate them, the way he believed women were supposed to act and didn't drove him to hate them.

Which would be completely delusional of course, I don't know if there are instances where he did actually approach women. There is one story about a women that teased him and put him down a lot.

I don't really think it matters all that much though whether women did literally reject him, or whether he only imagined this, the point is that is what he believed.

Regardless he was a person who had a lot of issues with social interaction probably spurned on by Asperger's. And it is easy to see that his own misogyny may of been influence at least in part by his own inability to form a relationship.

And the truth is, in terms of the reasons he acted violently, there is plenty of evidence within his manifesto that those tendencies were much more deep-rooted than simply misogyny. In my view, he would have found something else if not women.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

leadbelly you keep making the point that he was driven by rejection (even though it was imagined rejection). Look at the reasons he felt that rejection was an injustice. It was because he felt that he ticked all the imaginary boxes of what women were supposed to want. That he was a true alpha male and that women were flawed for not recognising it. Where did he get those ideas from? Like someone else said he took already established ideas from certain circles to their extreme conclusion.

He did all of those things and never actually approached a woman. He threw coffee on some women standing at a bus stop because he smiled at them while driving by, and they didn't smile back. He saw THAT sort of interaction as rejection. Rejection from women didn't drive him to hate them, the way he believed women were supposed to act and didn't drove him to hate them.

Yup, thats the point I'm trying to make.

 

[User 100115]

Which would be completely delusional of course, I don't know if there are instances where he did actually approach women. There is one story about a women that teased him and put him down a lot.

I don't really think it matters all that much though whether women did literally reject him, or whether he only imagined this, the point is that is what he believed it.

Regardless he was a person who had a lot of issues with social interaction probably spurned on by Asperger's. And it is easy to see that his own misogyny may of been influence at least in part by his own inability to form a relationship.

And the truth is, in terms of the reasons he acted violently, there is plenty of evidence within his manifesto that those tendencies were much more deep-rooted than simply misogyny. In my view, he would have found something else if not women.

But would he have focused so much on women if he wasn't living in a culture where women are viewed largely as a commodity? Sex sells, rich people get all the girls, if you are a male virgin you aren't a man, etc etc. These are very common cultural norms in our society. Would he have clung so much to the idea that he was owed a woman for simply existing if that were not the case?

 

[Karkador]

But would he have focused so much on women if he wasn't living in a culture where women are viewed largely as a commodity? Sex sells, rich people get all the girls, if you are a male virgin you aren't a man, etc etc. These are very common cultural norms in our society. Would he have clung so much to the idea that he was owed a woman for simply existing if that were not the case?

This is what makes me wonder what his family and home life were really like

 

[leadbelly]

leadbelly you keep making the point that he was driven by rejection (even though it was imagined rejection). Look at the reasons he felt that rejection was an injustice. It was because he felt that he ticked all the imaginary boxes of what women were supposed to want. That he was a true alpha male and that women were flawed for not recognising it. Where did he get those ideas from?

Well, he states it is unjust because he believes he is more worthy than the 'obnoxious brutes'. I realise this is kind of moving the my point into me trying to defend the argument he wasn't misogynistic, but the truth is he clearly was. This isn't really my argument, it is the reason he developed misogynistic views in the first place. This is just a matter of opinion. As I have stated, his inability to form relationships and his belief, whether delusional or not, that women were repulsed by him and hated him, I can see as a reason for why someone may develop those views.

In other words, his own loneliness and sadness turns to bitterness and anger. it is then he starts projecting the reasons on to them. it's their fault not his fault.

 

[Brakke]

And the truth is, in terms of the reasons he acted violently, there is plenty of evidence within his manifesto that those tendencies were much more deep-rooted than simply misogyny. In my view, he would have found something else if not women.

But so what? What is the thing you're reaching for here? What is it you want to accomplish? That misogyny is ok, that it's not harmful? That it's at worst equally harmful to racism?

What is constructive about this position? Literally: what understanding are you trying to build by rejecting Misogyny Writ Large as a determining factor in motivating this guy's actions?

 

[ryutaro's mama]

But would he have focused so much on women if he wasn't living in a culture where women are viewed largely as a commodity? Sex sells, rich people get all the girls, if you are a male virgin you aren't a man, etc etc. These are very common cultural norms in our society. Would he have clung so much to the idea that he was owed a woman for simply existing if that were not the case?

I hear you but it's a case by case basis. Not saying that the societal norms are cool or whatever but the truth is, we all live in this modern society and yet we don't all go out and treat women like this and/or go out and shoot people.

We are all guilty of it, as a collective people. We as a society place value on beauty, success and riches. We worship it and there is an overwhelming sense of entitlement whether it's expecting a girlfriend or the right colored iPad as though it were a birthright.

I would say this kid was insane but that would be my non-professional opinion.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

There's also pushback against people trying to say it was the only thing that mattered in what occurred. That lumping him in with the mentally ill hurts their status as a group. That's where the non-crazy pushback is.

No one has done that. You're the one adding that only, not anyone else here.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

In other words, his own loneliness and sadness turns to bitterness and anger. it is then he starts projecting the reasons on to them. it's their fault not his fault.

Did you gloss over the part where he apparently got all of his ideas about women from external sources plus his own compacted view of the world?

He didn't become a misogynistic creep because he was rejected. He actively chose to be one, as is clearly written in his manifesto. He didn't even try to not be a creep. He thought that was the way to get attention, and to him, attention was equatable to friendship.

 

[Brakke]

People aren't born with the word "rejection". He learned how to interpret the actions of others somewhere. He learned what the stakes of "rejection" are somewhere.

He learned some heinous shit.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Well, he states it is unjust because he believes he is more worthy than the 'obnoxious brutes'. I realise this is kind of moving the my point into me trying to defend the argument he wasn't misogynistic, but the truth is he clearly was. This isn't really my argument, it is the reason he developed misogynistic views in the first place. This is just a matter of opinion. As I have stated, his inability to form relationships and his belief, whether delusional or not, that women were repulsed by him and hated him, I can see as a reason for why someone may develop those views.

In other words, his own loneliness and sadness turns to bitterness and anger. it is then he starts projecting the reasons on to them. it's their fault not his fault.

I think his inability to live up to what he thought his status should be was more of a motivator than being lonely. You can see it in everything he does.Gets angry that people are better at karate than him, gets angry that people are better at WoW than him, gets angry that he's not as strong as other people etc. Then when he found out that inferiors had something he couldn't get he just couldn't take it, hence all the weird anger at people for having sex. And unlike the other things this was something that society puts a high value on that he couldn't just quit or ignore.

 

[leadbelly]

But would he have focused so much on women if he wasn't living in a culture where women are viewed largely as a commodity? Sex sells, rich people get all the girls, if you are a male virgin you aren't a man, etc etc. These are very common cultural norms in our society. Would he have clung so much to the idea that he was owed a woman for simply existing if that were not the case?

This is where I think things get quite murky. First of all, we're biological beings. We're hard-wired for sex and for forming relationships. We can't escape that part of it, right? Regardless of how we view sex within society, people are always going to be motivated by sex.

With that out the way, I suppose there is an 'expectation' especially with losing your virginity that puts an unnecessary pressure on people. I can see how these elements could influence his way of thinking, but it does us all.

However, he was extremely focused and obsessive about this. You can't really discount the level in which Asperger's has an effect on that. Asperger's causes people to be extremely obsessive. This is the problem with talking about Rodger, you can argue a point based on your own experiences, but his personality is shaped by different things. It could be simply that it's not really society at all that was the reason he was so obsessed with women, it could just be a very well known sympton of Asperger's. It could also be a mix of all of those aspects.

Rodger, clearly reacted in an extreme way when he felt he was being slighted. he may not have outwardly done anything, but it seems he certainly inwardly viewed things in an extreme way. It seems to me that women just happened to be focus. This is a another problem when determining why he reacted the way did with women.

However, all we can do is base it on what he said, and a large part of his problem was with being a virgin and not being able to form relationships. In my view, this is where I think he developed a hatred of women. It is so entwined with his mental problems, that is hard to separate them. The reason he couldn't have what he wanted was likely because of the way Asperger's people's ability to socially interact. Before any other issue, that is base of his problem.

 

[User 100115]

This is where I think things get quite murky. First of all, we're biological beings. We're hard-wired for sex and for forming relationships. We can't escape that part of it, right? Regardless of how we view sex within society, people are always going to be motivated by sex.

You completely missed my point I believe, in that women in our culture (mostly the media) are in general shown to be prizes to won and that their only worth lies in how attractive they are. Sex sells, yes. But only to men, even though women want to buy too. Of course people want sex. Sex is awesome. Everyone wants sex. But when culture in general sees one side as the 'hunter' and the other as the 'prey', it's not shocking that someone like this guy could develop very toxic ideas about women and then find a bunch of people that developed similar ideas.

 

[leadbelly]

I think his inability to live up to what he thought his status should be was more of a motivator than being lonely. You can see it in everything he does.Gets angry that people are better at karate than him, gets angry that people are better at WoW than him, gets angry that he's not as strong as other people etc. Then when he found out that inferiors had something he couldn't get he just couldn't take it, hence all the weird anger at people for having sex. And unlike the other things this was something that society puts a high value on that he couldn't just quit or ignore.

That could be it too, I am only going by what he actually said. He said he was lonely and miserable, therefore I assume there is some truth to that, I don't actually disagree with what you say here at all.

Did you gloss over the part where he apparently got all of his ideas about women from external sources plus his own compacted view of the world?

He didn't become a misogynistic creep because he was rejected. He actively chose to be one, as is clearly written in his manifesto. He didn't even try to not be a creep. He thought that was the way to get attention, and to him, attention was equatable to friendship.

I think the post above I quoted explains something about Rodger, He reacted in a extreme way to everything, it doesn't matter whether it was women or whatever else. It just so happens it was sex and forming a relationship that was of the most concern to him.

He was always going to view women in an extreme way, it seems to be a part of his personality. My view is more about the root of his misogyny, not so much what crazy ideas he got about women as a result. The question is, was it caused by society projecting on to him a sense of entitlement to women, or was it rooted in his own inability to form relationships and the negative consequences of that?

We can all understand for instance that from rejection may come pain, and how that may boil over to bitterness and jealousy. This is something that seemed to constantly occupy his thoughts, so you'd imagine it is something he looked into consistently. I don't think his extreme reaction to it is 'caused' by cultural misogyny, he was prone to do that anyway, no matter what the issue was. I think the underlying issue was always to do with the act of forming a relationship itself, and being unsuccessful in doing so. This led to his extreme thoughts and theories for why he was incapable of doing so,

 

[Brakke]

Asperger's is a label we apply to people who exhibit certain traits. Despite being "biological beings" it is not a phenomenon we observe biologically, only socially. You're running in circles.

"he has Asperger's because these behaviors" and "he exhibits these behaviors because Asperger's" is two ways to say the same thing.

And it doesn't really help us better understand this tragedy nor the world broadly.

 

[leadbelly]

You completely missed my point I believe, in that women in our culture (mostly the media) are in general shown to be prizes to won and that their only worth lies in how attractive they are. Sex sells, yes. But only to men, even though women want to buy too. Of course people want sex. Sex is awesome. Everyone wants sex. But when culture in general sees one side as the 'hunter' and the other as the 'prey', it's not shocking that someone like this guy could develop very toxic ideas about women and then find a bunch of people that developed similar ideas.

I don't think I did entirely. This is true of course, and me using 'virginity' as an example, I am kind of agreeing to a degree that there are certain views and expectations within society geared towards having sex like it is a prize to be won, but I can't help but see that we're hard-wired to compete for sex anyway. Society just puts greater pressure on people. You're somehow a 'loser' if you haven't had sex yet, etc.

 

[leadbelly]

Asperger's is a label we apply to people who exhibit certain traits. Despite being "biological beings" it is not a phenomenon we observe biologically, only socially. You're running in circles.

"he has Asperger's because these behaviors" and "he exhibits these behaviors because Asperger's" is two ways to say the same thing.

And it doesn't really help us better understand this tragedy nor the world broadly.

So what of a person who has extreme autism?

Asperger's as far as I can tell is a form of autism. It is simply where person fits on the autism scale. It is a neurodevelopmental disorder.

 

[kirblar]

No one has done that. You're the one adding that only, not anyone else here.

We're going to have to agree to strongly disagree on that one.

 

[Ikael]

I don't think how it is even debatable that the guy was a full mysoginistic asshole. It is pretty clear that he hated all women and that every men that he hated as well was because they get along with women. Well, either that, or because they were unfortunate enough to share a flat with him, too :/

The crux of the matter for me is to whetever ideology fuels actions, that is, if it is psychology what models ideology, or if it was ideology what modelled his psychology. Did mysoginia turned him into a bitter sociopath? Or did his bitterness and sociopathy turned him into a mysoginistic (and racist) piece of shit?

From reading his ramblings, I think that it was the latter. He was clearly unable to cope with rejection, so he had to rationalize his failure by projecting faults into the people that couldn't stand him: girls are whores, my flatmates are thieves, my relatives are selfish, yadda, yadda.

For narcissist people, the blame always lays on others and the world at large since they are perfect and flawless. He strieved to get female attention far more than he tried to get any other type of validation, consequently, he was rejected by girls more than any other people and thus, he focused the lionshare of his hate and anger into women more than anyone else. Of course he needed to pour mysoginia into his head. How else would he made sense of the world and his shortcomings? By admitting that he was less than great?

Or we can pretend his views were just crazy and not echoed by a frankly terrifying amount of people while also sympathizing for for the poor lonely bullied kid.

Thankfully most of his views are not echoed by anyone in their sane minds. I sincerely doubt that even the most old-fashioned, ardently sexist, bigoted men would ever argue for putting all women in concentration camps or leading a "revolution" that ends with a female killing spree. Not even the freaking Taliban or Boko Haram thought about something like that. There is a huge cognitive leap between "make me a sandwich, you evil she-witch" and "I am going start killing random women in the streets".

 

[spekkeh]

I don't have a clinical background at all, so maybe I'm way off the mark, but it very much feels like how an autist would perceive the dating game. He amassed all these collectables, good looks, sports car, money, so it would only be logical that he was awarded the girlfriend achievement. That he played the game well and no such achievement was awarded to him obviously meant the other side was cheating (successful men and all of womankind) and therefore worthy of derision. It's really only logcal.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

On the subject of Boko Haram, I don't think kidnapping women for the crime of Western thought and selling them into a life of sexual slavery is that far removed from Elliot's POV. Two extreme methods of dealing with the same "problem" - women are doing things I don't like, they must be punished.

The Taliban shot that little girl in Pakistan in the face, remember?

And it seems like every month we read a story about a woman receiving lashes for having sex (more often, being raped) out of wedlock.

Any society that says that women must behave thusly OR ELSE inevitably will see the same level of violence.

 

[Tugatrix]

Are you guys still discuting his disease? I think pretty early in this thread we agree (Psy Gaf) that the guy most probably had narcissistic personality disorder, it's that enough information for you guys?

 

[leadbelly]

On the subject of Boko Haram, I don't think kidnapping women for the crime of Western thought and selling them into a life of sexual slavery is that far removed from Elliot's POV. Two extreme methods of dealing with the same "problem" - women are doing things I don't like, they must be punished.

The Taliban shot that little girl in Pakistan in the face, remember?

And it seems like every month we read a story about a woman receiving lashes for having sex (more often, being raped) out of wedlock.

Any society that says that women must behave thusly OR ELSE inevitably will see the same level of violence.

When you look at it that way, they're similar, but I believe the psychology that led to that conclusion isn't the same.

 

[spekkeh]

As much as I hate the Abrahamitic view on women and think that they feel justified in their actions based on scripture, I really don't think this hatred is a natural consequence of a society that's oppressive to women, in fact, if anything it's the other way around (religions oppressive to women are borne out of a hatred for them). In humanity, the woman chooses the mate. This makes the man weak, who, by other factors, is predetermined to strive for dominance, leading to frustration. An upset of the power balance, for instance by joining a group of violent male bandits (boko haram), amassing weapons (boko haram, Rodgers) or institutionalized religion (the west and middle east) gives the man control over the woman to 'regain and exact his dominance'.

 

[leadbelly]

Are you guys still discuting his disease? I think pretty early in this thread we agree (Psy Gaf) that the guy most probably had narcissistic personality disorder, it's that enough information for you guys?

Well, I think we're discussing him which would include his mental issues as that obviously is part of what shaped his personality.

I think personally, it is impossible to speak about him as if he was a completely normal human being. It would be an inaccurate assessment of him.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

When you look at it that way, they're similar, but I believe the psychology that led to that conclusion isn't the same.

The difference is those groups are much larger in number, much more organized (with a more widely disseminated manifesto), and so ingrained into their local societies that many women toe the line because they expect that kind of violence if they don't comply.

The underlying belief - that women were made to be subservient to men, and any deviation from that service is an abomination to be corrected - is something they and Rogers arrived to independently, but the results will always be the same.

 

[leadbelly]

The difference is those groups are much larger in number, much more organized (with a more widely disseminated manifesto), and so ingrained into their local societies that many women toe the line because they expect that kind of violence if they don't comply.

The underlying belief - that women were made to be subservient to men, and any deviation from that service is an abomination to be corrected - is something they and Rogers arrived to independently, but the results will always be the same.

Yeah, but it wasn't just women with Rodgers. It seems people keep missing the point that Rodgers had serious mental issues, and reacted the same way to anyone he believed had wronged him in some way or felt was unworthy of his praise, It seems that women just happened to be thing he was most focused on. This leads people to the conclusion that his anger was fueled by misogyny, but in reality, it was his extremely flawed personality that was just toxic.

This post from earlier sums it up well

So I just finished reading the entire manifesto and a few things stuck out to me:

-His parent's wealth is a bit overstated. He was seemingly well connected more than anything else. The parents could have paid for him to go to something like the Bunny Ranch but he had no interest in prostitution as he felt it was degrading.
-He was a victim of bullying, from his perspective anyway. He was always a crybaby/whiner and seemed to take any slight very personally. Much of this stemmed from his height and physicality.
-He was obsessed with background and was definitely narcissistic. He makes a big emphasis on his background in the manifesto and how due to this, he was better than some random Mexican or Black.
-On that note, he was definitely racist. He felt other races were beneath him.
-He was jealous of everyone seemingly as he felt everybody was better than him. He interestingly enough had an insecurity complex along with the narcissism.
-He didn't get along with his stepmother at all. He felt that she was too controlling and manipulating his father.
-As for his mother, he seemingly despised her for not marrying into a wealthy family. He stated multiple times that she should sacrifice herself for his happiness and remarry(the parents got divorced) into money.
-He doesn't talk much about his sister other than her banging some guy and him being jealous of that.
-He was planning on killing his stepmother and half-brother because he didn't want his half-brother to have a better life than him
-Was a big World of Warcraft and Halo fanatic. I'm sure this will become a big talking point down the road.
-If things didn't go his way, he would throw a tantrum about it and try to force other people to resolve the situation instead of him doing it himself.
-People were recommending for him to move out of Isla Vista but he felt that it would be a failure on his part and if he couldn't be happy there, nobody should.
-His parents knew that he was offkilter and did try but he seemingly resented them for any intervention on their part.
-He was an entitled little shit and didn't appreciate a large number of things people tried to do for him.1

He had a lot of mental issues other than just misogyny.

He literally hated everyone, and reacted in a way that was disproportionate to that which triggered his reaction. There are clearly underlying issues that led him to the conclusion that he did. In fact he stabbed to death his roommates first which I'm not sure had anything to do with misogyny at all. He just hated them because they were pathetic nerds.

 

[Infinite]

Why are people doing mental backflips to STILL try and say Elliot didn't perceive women as objects he was entitled too ie misogyny?

 

[Cromat]

Are you guys still discuting his disease? I think pretty early in this thread we agree (Psy Gaf) that the guy most probably had narcissistic personality disorder, it's that enough information for you guys?

Is that even treatable? Look at this guy, he received professional help for years and only grew worse.

 

[TrickyDaddy]

Is that even treatable? Look at this guy, he received professional help for years and only grew worse.

On and off. And he didn't even take his medication. He didn't put in any effort to fix his condition, let alone acknowledge that he had a mental issue.

 

[leadbelly]

Why are people doing mental backflips to STILL try and say Elliot didn't perceive women as objects he was entitled too ie misogyny?

Yeah. This really does go around in circles.

I've never said once that he wasn't misogynistic. That isn't up for debate. The fact that for instance he was planning on killing his stepmother and his brother because he didn't want his brother to have a better life than him, kind of indicates that there is something more going on here. That he would react similarly to anyone he felt had wronged him, or was jealous of.

He was certainly misogynistic, it's just that the conclusion he came to, was much more deep-rooted than that.

 

[Infinite]

Yeah. This really does go around in circles.

I've never said once that he wasn't misogynistic. That isn't up for debate. The fact that for instance he was planning on killing his stepmother and his brother because he didn't want his brother to have a better life than him, kind of indicates that there is something more going on here. That he would react similarly to anyone he felt had wronged him, or was jealous of.

He was certainly misogynistic, it's just that the conclusion he came to, was much more deep-rooted than that.

There is no way misogny didn't play a role in his crimes and beliefs for doing them so what are you actually saying here?

 

[leadbelly]

There is no way misogny didn't play a role in his crimes and beliefs for doing them so what are you actually saying here?

Well, in this particular series of posts, I was basically talking about the psychology behind it wasn't I?

A poster compared him to Boko Haram, which you can see the similarities when you look at it purely from the surface. I think there are some psychological differences however, when you speak about the reasons they both came to the conclusions they did. Rodger was simply unable to cope with people having a better life than him, being more successful than him, having more fun than him. There were underlying psychological issues that influenced his view,

 

[pupcoffee]

What bothers me about this whole situation is that the content I've been reading analyses his misogyny (which is good) but attempts to link it to the same brand of misogyny that regular, non-mentally ill misogynist people feel. I understand it's a good opportunity to bring awareness of misogyny into the mainstream but, really,"This is the logical end point of the misogyny present in culture" strikes me as a bit presumptive and shallow.

I'm not convinced the "entitlement" he had is the same thing as the "entitlement" actual normal misogynist people have, I think his was a lot more vicious than normal entitlement and not in "a logical end point" way, because the logical end point of actual everyday misogyny I feel is the act of rape, not murder. I think he is something too twisted, dark and plain different to be fairly linked to everyday misogyny in any degree. He totally fails as a representative of the mindset/feelings of the everyday misogynist person. This is just my feelings, not even thoughts on the matter, though.

edit: I'm not saying he wasn't influenced by mainstream misogynistic factors in our culture, but that he digested and used these factors in a way other people just don't. His "I want to do something that will hurt women" strikes me as just too unusual.

 

[Infinite]

"Normal misogynst"

Also I'm not a psychiatrist but we know that Elliot had some psychological issues. What bothers me is the you are compartmentalizing it to avoid talking about structural problems related to this case. Yes that includes misogyny and it also includes the state of mental health treatment and gun laws. Elliot is not some alien he grew up in our society

 

[pupcoffee]

"Normal misogynst"

Also I'm not a psychiatrist but we know that Elliot had some psychological issues. What bothers me is the you are compartmentalizing it to avoid talking about structural problems related to this case. Yes that includes misogyny and it also includes the state of mental health treatment and gun laws. Elliot is not some alien he grew up in our society

Isn't the paradox with the mentally ill is that they are presented as both social "aliens" as well as perfectly normal at the same time?

I don't want to avoid talking about structural problems related to the case, I am just not that impressed with the current ones being thrown around. It all grates as a little too simple for my liking is all (the misogynist part of it.) I don't buy it that he displayed a kind of misogyny that so easily translates to "sane" misogyny. (Misogyny isn't sane in general but I'm trying to just get at what I mean here.)

 

[Stinkles]

6 people were killed and you're concerned about the gun dealer that sold him a weapon before he was seeing shrinks?

I can't even...

This is America. We have a special relationship with guns. We have more guns than any other country. We have far more gun crimes, suicides and violence than any other first world, western nation. The stats are dizzying.

Combine that with shockingly bad mental health care and appalling health care, period, and massive wealth inequality and you get a very bad result.

I agree with one thing that the NRA likes to say a lot. Guns don't kill people.

Americans with guns kill people. And after it happens, we cannot blame guns. We have to discuss everything else except guns. We can even blame it on movie or comic books. Anything except guns.

 

[Infinite]

Isn't the paradox with the mentally ill is that they are presented as both social "aliens" as well as perfectly normal at the same time?

I don't want to avoid talking about structural problems related to the case, I am just not that impressed with the current ones being thrown around. It all grates as a little too simple for my liking is all.

Yes that's what I think is an issue related to the perception of mental health and neurological disorders.

Too simply for your liking? No one is trying to impress you with rhetoric.

 

[pupcoffee]

Yes that's what I think is an issue related to the perception of mental health and neurological disorders.

Well then, don't you think the issue has bearing on the public perception of this particular mentally ill man - where people are trying to pin his brand of misogyny onto everyone who is misogynist but not (also) mentally ill? Is this really responsible journalism/opinion writing? Is it not possible he could be more of an irregular misogynist, and hence real regular misogynists will go misrepresented, which is not helpful since the aim here is to pin them down so we can undermine/get rid of them?

 

[Infinite]

Well then, don't you think the issue has bearing on the public perception of this particular man - where people are trying to pin his brand of misogyny onto everyone who is misogynist but not also mentally ill? Is this really responsible journalism/opinion writing?

People are saying that misogyny itself all forms of it is bad and inherently sociopathic. Full stop. Misogyny isn't "regular" or it should not be. This is a problem. Elliot's views are not unique to only him he just took an extreme course of action. The reality is that a many women every day are abused one way or another by men.

 

[Epsilon-delta]

I just the read the new article on CNN on Rodger. I didn't know he killed the three people in his apartment before uploading his "Retribution" video in the OP.

Guy was ice cold.

 

[kmax]

Emotional video with Richard Martinez, father of Chris Martinez who was killed.

I'm nodding my head here. Something needs to be done, since these shooting and senseless killings will not stop as things are now. It's too easy right now.

 

[APF]

Sure, Zimmerman was probably racist, but it wasn't racism that killed Trayvon Martin. There are plenty of regular racists who don't kill anyone.

Really GAF? Really? If you find yourself making these sorts of arguments you should take a fucking long look at yourself.

 

[pupcoffee]

People are saying that misogyny itself all forms of it is bad and inherently sociapathic. Full stop.

As a raging feminist I want more insight and discussion into what the "forms" of misogyny actually are, individually, and how they differ, and "who" can be pinned to what form. "Knowledge is power." A key reason so many people dislike common discussions picking at misogyny is how overly basic and general the anti-misogynist discussion seems. This current thing about the massacre is too basic IMO because relevant human details like what defines "normal" etc and how that can be used to draw conclusions onto other "normal" or "non-normal" persons simply aren't being given the time of day.

Yes, misogyny is bad. Is that really the best we can do?

 

[pupcoffee]

Misogyny isn't "regular" or it should not be. This is a problem. Elliot's views are not unique to only him he just took an extreme course of action. The reality is that a many women every day are abused one way or another by men.

My use of "regular" does not entail that regular = okay. I know that abuse is regular, and not okay. Stop thinking I don't know that. The question is if these are being simplistically linked to a situation that may not regular, but more an extra-negative exception to regular misogyny circles. Hence we might not be able to say things about the "regular" circles and this murderer necessarily in the same breath or category.

I think his views might be unique to him because it just doesn't sound like anything a normal human would or ever would think/say. I already said I think "normal" sexist people probably don't associate with him any more than we do, going by the sheer (yes - partly alien) insanity of it.

 

[Jintor]

I might've been reading the wrong news reports, but it occurred to me I hadn't seen the victims + names before.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

What bothers me about this whole situation is that the content I've been reading analyses his misogyny (which is good) but attempts to link it to the same brand of misogyny that regular, non-mentally ill misogynist people feel. I understand it's a good opportunity to bring awareness of misogyny into the mainstream but, really,"This is the logical end point of the misogyny present in culture" strikes me as a bit presumptive and shallow.

I'm not convinced the "entitlement" he had is the same thing as the "entitlement" actual normal misogynist people have, I think his was a lot more vicious than normal entitlement and not in "a logical end point" way, because the logical end point of actual everyday misogyny I feel is the act of rape, not murder. I think he is something too twisted, dark and plain different to be fairly linked to everyday misogyny in any degree. He totally fails as a representative of the mindset/feelings of the everyday misogynist person. This is just my feelings, not even thoughts on the matter, though.

edit: I'm not saying he wasn't influenced by mainstream misogynistic factors in our culture, but that he digested and used these factors in a way other people just don't. His "I want to do something that will hurt women" strikes me as just too unusual.

20-25% of collegiate women are sexually assaulted. I'd argue that violence against women is the inevitable endpoint of most misogyny, even amongst the sane and educated. Because this guy's particular brand of mental illness led him to believe that murder was preferable to rape resulted in an escalated tragedy, but he still has the same power fantasy that leads men to believe that women are tools of pleasure and status. Had he been successful with women, I'd have no doubt that he would have stumbled into a classical pattern of domestic abuse and sexual violence.