Tropes vs Women in Video Games: Background Decoration Pt. 1

Seeking out deep interpersonal relationships on any level inside of games designed around gunning down hundreds or thousands of people seems misguided.

My point was that what is gross-feeling about these depictions is not the mere presence of sexualized workers but the depiction thereof.

I mean, I would even say that this would be an excellent place to put some clever satire or something unexpected to lampoon the usual way sex is handled in these games. I mean, wouldn't it be great if a stripper, instead of giving sex for you winning a minigame, did some Audition-like stuff to you? I'm not saying that's the answer, but as much credit as something like GTAV gets for being subversive, the way they handle sexuality doesn't seem very clever, and very in line with how most games do.
 
Shallow analysis pointing out the obvious without providing context to the situations they exist in. A more deeply rooted analysis examining developer and marketing pressures would've been more appreciated and more salient.

As it is, the argument comes across as hamfisted as she squeezes criticism out of video-gamey reflections of things that happen in the real world as objectification - ignoring that they are indeed just that; videogamey reflections of things in the real world.

I mean some of the comments above would've been effective at placing the context for viewers - sure they're reflections of the world, but why do they seem to be disproportionately featured? Where are other professions? etc.

Still, if you want to feel outrage at sexual objectification in videogames, then Sarkeesian's videos are pretty good for that.

Also, her belief that video games are more harmful because of player agency reflects a fairly discredited line of thinking with video game violence.

Can't find anything to disagree with here.
 
A grocery store would require an enormous amount of assets to accurately depict the array of available products. Strip clubs are dark and spartan environments that are easy to render, and can at least be more logistically slotted into a game centered around crime.

Lmao
 
There are also supermarkets. Why does every open world game feel the need to perfectly render every strip club instead of, you know, any other business.

And arguing about prostitutes and strippers in GTAV is like trying to douse out the flames of a twig in a forest fire, that game straight up hates women on an uncomfortable level.

You're right. I always felt Fallout 3's supermarket was a tad lackluster. Maybe if they would had strippers I would of thought more of it. Jk

But why do they use women for car model magazines or having women come out on stage during an opening ceremony? Because women in general are attractive human beings who draw attention.

That strip club wasn't that great. It was a single stage with like 3 to 4 booths. The game's story uses it as a plot device. Plus Trevor's personality made me think he was that type anywhere. It's like calling men pigs all the time because they like beer and a beautiful lady. Half the guys who don't sit and play video games enjoy those types of things. GTAV did create a massive city. The strip club was just a small slice in that pie.
 
That's a bullshit example that is intentionally misleading.


Each area has a fame/ infamy counter for the player. It starts off as neutral then pros start getting weighed against the cons, different amounts yielding different reputations.

For that very specific reputation of good natured rascal you have to max out your fame becoming a hero then committing an infamous act to get that reputation. Not shown is how the law enforcment and stationed military personnel immediately become hostile forcing you to run away or die... as defending yourself would quckly drop your reputation to the worst.

If you were neutral you would have either been immediately Shunned, Hated, or Vilified for that same act.

New Vegas's karma and reputation system is probably one of gaming's best. Its a very hard thing to program for. Also the game IS a black comedy.
 
I genuinely believe that Trevor was mocking the behavior of most players in sandboxes. I suppose that it open to interpretation though. Obviously the problem here is still the "games need to be fun" mantra and the fact that GTA is a blockbuster that needs to sell big. So you can be too scathing or on point or it might ruint he fun.
I think at best, I could say that Trevor is satirizing critics who point out that GTAIV has "ludonarrative dissonance". So they were like, "Oh yeah assholes? You want a reason to go on a rampage and kill people? Well here you go!"

New Vegas's karma and reputation system is probably one of gaming's best. Its a very hard thing to program for. Also the game IS a black comedy.
Hell, I think the fact that you can choose your sexuality in the game through an in game mechanic is in itself kind of amazing.
 
Is supposed to be a reference about a cliche in old films.

My eyes popped open at this. If they wanted it to be funny, the train should've been derailed, not gibbed the poor thing. The fallout prostitute character models are so laughably bad, the terrible 'titliating' dialogue just falls flat, and further embarrasses whoever thought it was a good idea to include in the first place. And basically what I got out of this, is that Bayonetta is legit the best female character in games.
 
Of course media has an effect on people, especially on easily influenced young individuals

Mmm... media studies have been discussing this for roughly 50 years, and the verdict seems to be that media affect people, but in very subtle and complex ways. Even in more passive forms of culture, people are not passively accepting whatever message they get in touch with. They rather build meaning according to their values and views. And even so, I don't think that the long term effects are particularly strong. If they were, you couldn't explain why people develop critical ideas even in countries or context where propaganda is everywhere all the time.
 
Sorry if this lacks some organization or mistakes, but this is what I got from the video. Also keep in mind I started typing this while the thread was still on page 1, so excuse me if some arguments have already been discussed:

With her examples on instrumentality, she is saying that women are objects, and that you are buying and selling their bodies as objects for use to the player. Well with the examples she cited, i.e AC4, I don't agree with her. Especially with the courtesans, Kenway isn't objectifing them, and really neither is the player. He's HIRING them, as is the player, to trick and distract, not to have sex. He is hiring them for a SERVICE, much like Kenway is hired for killings. She is explicity saying the word "rented" as if they are a house or boat or something insignificant, actual objects. You hire a plumber to fix your toilet, Kenway hires a courtesans sexuality to distract, why that is a bad thing I'm not sure, it's a fact of life that men typically like women, so women or even men taking advantage of this seems realistic and even smart.

She also cited Hitman when tossing the stripper to distract the cops. You can do the same thing in many of the other missions in the same game to also distract guards but with a male body. Also, asides from the fact the woman was a stripper, how was the guard's reaction sexualized. I think anyone who saw a random dead body appear where it wasn't a "minute earlier" would be shocked. The fact that it's a woman seems insignificant.

She also explained and showcased examples of "voilability", which to me quite frankly appeared to be about as revelant to sexualize women in games as to men. She was citing things like picking up cash from dead women in GTA, she cited killing and mutiliating prostitutes in dishonored, when in both of those games you do the same things to men, if not more often. She brought them up as if they exclusively occur to sexualized women, as if the games are singling out women, which they are not.

She then brought up "testing a game's mechanics" to see where the boundaries of ability lie within said game, and brought up killing sexualzied women as if it were the goal and a main aspect of the game. She talked a lot of how once women were turned into sexual objects, violence against said objects is intrinsically permitted. If we are agreeing with the fact that sexualized women are objects in games, I don't see why any NPC isn't, particularly in open world games. All NPCs serve pretty much to be the players play ground tools, whether it be running random pedastrians over or throwing grenades into crowded areas. She cited sleeping dogs when Shen beat up that woman and threw her into his trunk, and Fallout when the player killed the prostitute and swung her body around. She is citing these as examples as if such action only and more exclusively occur to the sexualized women within said games, when really that is not true at all.

Also around 25:55 when she's talking about sexualized female npcs, she goes on about how the player can't do anything with these women besides either have sex with them or hurt them. She says the player can't experience their stories or lives other than pain and sex, while at the same time she has a picture from Carmen of from The Witcher in the background, a character who you get very well to know and take part in a quest with in a main part of the game, all without ever hurting her or having sex with her( if i'm not mistaken).

She also brought up the point that many male NPCs are not sexualized and are very plain, and uses this as the defining factor between killing male and female NPCs. Very true, but simply put, there are also tons and tons of non-sexualized female NPCs as well, all who you can equally kill and steal money from. She brings up that there are not a lot of male prostitutes in games, and cites Saints Row, an absolutely batshit crazy games that goes for laughs, as an example that does have them. I think part of the reason women and not men are typically sexualized as prostitutes in games and other media as well is the fact that such media wants to have a basis or grounding in reality. Having a more grounded setting perhaps helps with immersion or realism, a goal that many open world games seek to achieve. This in turn perhaps makes the game more fun. Are male prostitues or male stippers common, or as common as female versions? Taking further the fact that often gamers play as straight males/thugs in many of the games she cited, and for them to be in such situations with sexualized males perhaps doesn't make as much sense, but it has happened.

As she said, prostitutes/sexualized women are added into games to give them a more racy/gritty feel, and I'm not really sure what's wrong with this. Game designers have not just totally forsaken women in creating games like this, as many games, such as GTA, who seek to achieve life-like/believeable open worlds take influence directly from real life, and real life has prostitutes and women who dress very sexually, as well as arseholes who exploit these women. My main argument against this video is that Ms. Sarkeesian is seemingly calling out games and explaining their faults as if they are entirely made of them or totally constructed with the goal of having sex with sexualized women and hurting them, as if sexualized women are the only and most important victims.

She has some very good points, but too much of a poor presentation in actual information and cherry picking content to showcase her points, without seemingly being able to bring out games that illustrate her issues in a much more core way.
 
She kinda lost me halfway through once she started saying "studies have shown..." "there's evidence that..."

Hasn't there also been studies that show games have little to no effect on people? Didn't that come up in all that "games make people violent stuff?"

That's a genuine question. I don't know particulars.

I wouldn't expect studies about violence to apply to studies about sexism and such
 
My eyes popped open at this. If they wanted it to be funny, the train should've been derailed, not gibbed the poor thing. The fallout prostitute character models are so laughably bad, the terrible 'titliating' dialogue just falls flat, and further embarrasses whoever thought it was a good idea to include in the first place. And basically what I got out of this, is that Bayonetta is legit the best female character in games.

Well, it didn't say it was funny, but that is a reference (thought not a malicius one).
 
who cares if she makes money on it or not. Bottom line is the industry needs to grow up and take notice of these things.

Why grow up? do movies with sex or suggestive angles need to grow up also? Just because your adult doesn't mean you don't like sexual things.

Game of Thrones is considered adult fiction. Has tons of suggestive angles and situations they could leave out. Does that make the show immature?

In other mediums they push boundaries (adults only viewing) but games are immature with like subject matter. Why is that the case, honest question.
 
-Expansion of the market = good.
-Changing things to only appeal to some people = bad.

  • Racism is bad but because most are racists it is bad to change racism.
  • Sexism is bad but because most are sexists it is bad to change sexism.
  • Human rights don't exist so it is bad to do something about human rights.
I wonder how human progression would be with posts like this.

...meanwhile in ancient oppressive civilizations

"Hey in most video games women are beaten up and raped and treated like shit. Let us do something about it!
"Game on!"

*goesandmakesaworldwidepoll*

"Sorry to say this but most people do not think it is bad".
"But it is wrong!"
"Changing things to only appeal to some people."
"OK!"
"Game on!"

Conclusion - For a change to be good we must produce more women so they can match the number of males on this planet.
 
Is supposed to be a reference about a cliche in old films.
Dastardly Whiplash
it's from an old black and white film in a similar atmosphere as the game
here's another cartoon referencing

snidely-whiplash.jpg


Rockstar loves references to tv/cinema
 
  • Racism is bad but because most are racists it is bad to change racism.
  • Sexism is bad but because most are sexists it is bad to change sexism.
  • Human rights don't exist so it is bad to do something about human rights.
I wonder how human progression would be with posts like this.

...meanwhile in ancient oppressive civilizations

"Hey in most video games women are beaten up and raped and treated like shit. Let us do something about it!
"Game on!"

*goesandmakesaworldwidepoll*

"Sorry to say this but most people do not think it is bad".
"But it is wrong!"
"Changing things to only appeal to some people."
"OK!"
"Game on!"

They would have not let you made that poll.

Also... "In most games women are raped"? Wah?
 
But she said herself that they are interconnected to an extent. So that give a possible counterpoint...

It probably depends on what you're looking at, exactly. Violence against women? Yeah, there is probably some overlap with the previous studies there. Sexist attitudes overall, though? I don't think the studies on violence covered stuff like that at all. I would also wager that media could shift attitudes about something a lot easier than it can convince someone to act out in a violent way (but that's just my guess).
 
What about ads from that time period that show women in vacuum cleaner ads? The real reason why was men were the primary person involved in family spending habits.

Now that is reversed in a big way. Notice all the commercials showing women being smart? Or stupid guy screws up woman saves him? That because women are in charge of spending habits now. Make her feel welcome in charge ect.

Most of this stuff back then was as it is now about dollars and marketing.

I think these examples of marketing can feeda and uses stereotypes can be problematic as well. In general I think companies can do with better forms and ways of advertising that do not revolve around a lazy perpetuation of stereotypes and instead come up ideas that are different and better.
 
Why grow up? do movies with sex or suggestive angles need to grow up also? Just because your adult doesn't mean you don't like sexual things.

Game of Thrones is considered adult fiction. Has tons of suggestive angles and situations they could leave out. Does that make the show immature?

In other mediums they push boundaries (adults only viewing) but games are immature with like subject matter. Why is that the case, honest question.

One can leave in sexual content while making the characters involved in that sexual content more than mere sexual objects.

Game of Thrones is often way better than games on this score, though it does have its share of women who are there only for titillation In the case of the show it is somewhat less galling because it generally has a far more nuanced way of portraying sexuality.
 
Again my main gripe with Anita is the context and cherry picking that goes on to support her already pre conceived thesis. There's no investigatory nature here, it's 'this happens, it means this.' without any context to explain why these things may've been included or happening in the game.

I was with her (to a point) against the need for the umpteenth strip club locale or prostitution den in an open world but then her examples for the destructibility and violence against women were just terrible and exploitative. In open world games like the ones she cites you can inflict violence on anyone but she goes on to only show quick cuts where this happens to women, the player being rewarded for these acts against women with money falling out. The NPC's only cower and run away because they're women. Then goes on to say that when the body of a deceased NPC woman disappears its because she's a woman, adding to 'their status as disposable objects.' when this is in fact misinformation and as far as I'm aware happens to most objects with death/respawn timers attached to them so you're not clogging up memory. Anita has gone in here with a bias, sees a thing happening and puts events together to back up her pre conceived notion to why these events must be happening. It's bad research and conclusion making.

She deliberately deceives the viewer here and is picking and choosing what she shows for effect, as if these traits are definitively aimed at women when they're not. These are the natures of NPC's in open worlds, they're just there to chirp a few lines of dialogue and populate the world, not be fully interactable. If Anita wants to have a conversation about the disposability of NPC's in general in games I'll have that conversation but not when the perspective is as slanted as this.

I do wonder the people who will see this video without any gaming knowledge and will take everything at face value, it's actually quite damaging. As I said I was interested for the first 15 or so minutes but the second half of this just took a nose dive and reads like an intentionally misleading propaganda piece.
 
One can leave in sexual content while making the characters involved in that sexual content more than mere sexual objects.

Game of Thrones is often way better than games on this score, though it does have its share of women who are there only for titillation In the case of the show it is somewhat less galling because it generally has a far more nuanced way of portraying sexuality.

The problem is that games are afraid of the AO rating and therefore sex is basically limited to soft focus cutscenes featuring Mass Effect characters.
 
It probably depends on what you're looking at, exactly. Violence against women? Yeah, there is probably some overlap with the previous studies there. Sexist attitudes overall, though? I don't think the studies on violence covered stuff like that at all. I would also wager that media could shift attitudes about something a lot easier than it can convince someone to act out in a violent way (but that's just my guess).

That is also my guess.
 
I'm proud of myself for getting through that whole video. I'm also glad that I don't wander around the world looking for art that offends me. Things that are distasteful are pretty easy to avoid, especially in a medium where there is a rating right on the box.

Metro Last Light looks good too.. looking forward to the PS4 remake.
 
Why grow up? do movies with sex or suggestive angles need to grow up also? Just because your adult doesn't mean you don't like sexual things.

Game of Thrones is considered adult fiction. Has tons of suggestive angles and situations they could leave out. Does that make the show immature?

In other mediums they push boundaries (adults only viewing) but games are immature with like subject matter. Why is that the case, honest question.

Not games themselves, the industry needs to grow up. There is a difference.

As of now, video games as a medium still have a very narrow focus on young males. That's not to say there aren't plenty of examples otherwise--it's just the majority are still widely seen to appeal towards a young male audience. This is a pretty widely accepted view.

When people call for the industry to mature, they usually mean they want the industry to diversify, not only in the games it produces, but its workforce and audience as well. There are inherent problems that come with a narrow focus, such as what this thread is discussing now, and only diversity and growth can remedy it.

But too often people feel threatened that the games they love, which are criticized, are going to disappear, even though there's no indication that that is in our future. No one is calling for them to completely disappear, and if they are, they're only serving to reinforce the narrow focus they're fighting so hard against. What is more likely to happen is a slower growth, that over time will promote a healthy diversity of the medium, spanning genres of games and storytelling that we haven't even seen yet. No one has the power to flip a switch and change the industry immediately, so even if the games you love are being criticized, they're not going to disappear overnight.
 
BZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Samus is a no-no.

Well, at least Retro tried. A much more realistic approach.


Then this monstrosity was born

feature_life_lessons_02.jpg


Not that Samus being this super model wasn't always the case, but it's totally at odds with how you would expect the person inside the suit to be like. When you look at all the facts: Her family was killed, her surrogate family was killed, she's still going strong and being badass. You don't really expect a person like that to pose for the sexy pictures you see at the end of the games. (Let alone act like she does in Other M, killing Ridley 238293823 times beforehand, putting her own life in danger because some guy didn't specifically tell her to use the varia suit, etc). It's as if Samus exists as two entirely different characters at once.

I'm sorry if my post is super convuluted and hard to understand. I haven't really engaged in many conversations in this topic.

Edit:

^^^ She had a monologue once, that's nice.

And then Nintendo put her in sexy latex and made her ask men for permission to use her equipment.

She has multiple monologues in the game and directly engages in conversations with her ship's AI.
 
I was with her until about the half-way mark when she suddenly jumped to violence against women, when all her examples were 'violence towards Civilian NPCs'.
And saying that disappearing bodies is about 'reinforcing there are no consequences' is... well, surely she must know it's more about technical limitations in reality.

Also, how embarrassing must it be to go into a dialogue recording session and ask actresses to read out 'prostitute lines'...?
 
It's good to see more of this type of stuff. We need voices and movements that improve representation (and treatment) of women. Including, but of course not limited, to video games.
 
I was with her until about the half-way mark when she suddenly jumped to violence against women, when all her examples were 'violence towards Civilian NPCs'.
And saying that disappearing bodies is about 'reinforcing there are no consequences' is... well, surely she must know it's more about technical limitations in reality.

Also, how embarrassing must it be to go into a dialogue recording session and ask actresses to read out 'prostitute lines'...?
Are those two things mutually exclusive? Thing is, the most game developers don't go onto their game and say "let's be anti-woman", but that it just happens without thought and can influence the player.
 
I was with her until about the half-way mark when she suddenly jumped to violence against women, when all her examples were 'violence towards Civilian NPCs'.
And saying that disappearing bodies is about 'reinforcing there are no consequences' is... well, surely she must know it's more about technical limitations in reality.

Also, how embarrassing must it be to go into a dialogue recording session and ask actresses to read out 'prostitute lines'...?

can't be worse than hentai game voice actors simulating blowjob sounds by sucking their fingers.
 
Not games themselves, the industry needs to grow up. There is a difference.

As of now, video games as a medium still have a very narrow focus on young males. That's not to say there aren't plenty of examples otherwise--it's just the majority are still widely seen to appeal towards a young male audience. This is a pretty widely accepted view.

When people call for the industry to mature, they usually mean they want the industry to diversify, not only in the games it produces, but its workforce and audience as well. There are inherent problems that come with a narrow focus, such as what this thread is discussing now, and only diversity and growth can remedy it.

But too often people feel threatened that the games they love, which are criticized, are going to disappear, even though there's no indication that that is in our future. No one is calling for them to completely disappear, and if they are, they're only serving to reinforce the narrow focus they're fighting so hard against. What is more likely to happen is a slower growth, that over time will promote a healthy diversity of the medium, spanning genres of games and storytelling that we haven't even seen yet. No one has the power to flip a switch and change the industry immediately, so even if the games you love are being criticized, they're not going to disappear overnight.


Personally I agree the industry needs to widen focus. More voices can bring in more ideas. That we can agree is a good thing.
 
You don't get punished more for killing a prostitute in Fallout than for killing a (male) farmer? The developers are obviously sexist.

If she were to stick with actual examples of sexism instead of padding out her videos with blatant strawmen and double-standards, she'd be taken a lot more seriously.
 
I was with her until about the half-way mark when she suddenly jumped to violence against women, when all her examples were 'violence towards Civilian NPCs'.
And saying that disappearing bodies is about 'reinforcing there are no consequences' is... well, surely she must know it's more about technical limitations in reality.

Also, how embarrassing must it be to go into a dialogue recording session and ask actresses to read out 'prostitute lines'...?

Well if I know Rockstar they hired real prostitutes/ escorts/ or pornstars to record the dialogue

They did use real former/ current gang members for some of the npcs / enemies dialogue in the game
 
Well, at least Retro tried. A much more realistic approach.



Then this monstrosity was born
*anime samus pic*

Was it ever confirmed or recognize that Nintendo forced that change?

I'm pretty bummed we got robbed of the best face Samus will ever get in her games.
 
I think these examples of marketing can feeda and uses stereotypes can be problematic as well. In general I think companies can do with better forms and ways of advertising that do not revolve around a lazy perpetuation of stereotypes and instead come up ideas that are different and better.


True boths ways use subtle manipulation in hope you spend money on said products.
 
Ugh, that was painful to watch and had to force myself from stopping it servral times! Not because Her argument's were bad or off base. Once again Anita was pretty much hit the nail on the head. But it was extremely painful sitting through so many over the top and blatantly terrible sexualized scenes from sometime just lazy writers and scenario designers.

I haven't agree with some of MS Sarkeesian opinions in her other videos but this one was completely on point and her best today IMO.
 
So because of this '3rd person effect', surely everyone on NeoGAF is at least a little bit sexist, we've all been playing these sexist games our whole life. If you say you're not sexist, you're more likely to be sexist!
Actually, yes. It's very normal to be sexists to various degrees, even if your very open. We're living in a society full of open und subtle sexism.
Or are you the one to say that you're pure and are free of sexism?
 
Was it ever confirmed or recognize that Nintendo forced that change?

I'm pretty bummed we got robbed of the best face Samus will ever get in her games.

Pretty sure I read in an interview that it was Sakamoto who wanted a more anime Samus in Prime 2.

Edit: Not sure though, but even if it remains unconfirmed, I'm certain it was Sakamoto's will.
 
ugh

seriously fuck that guy

I'm pretty sure I might have pulled my last post out of my ass, sorry :(. Though given how Sakamoto talks about Samus and this:
CVG Quoting Iwata Asks said:
"[Sakamoto-san] stood close to me, checking the monitors. When we'd shoot a particularly moving scene, I'd ask him 'How was that, Sakamoto-san?', but he'd be completely silent [...] I was really worried, thinking 'Oh no, he doesn't like it...', but then when I peeked at his face, his eyes were full of tears."

I remain certain it was his decision. His boner for Samus is as big as Yoshida's is for Lightning
 
Waiting for the inevitable "the developers vision tho! If we force them to think about things, it will change the quality" post
It WILL change the quality though.
For the better.
Indeed:
Neil Druckmann said:
I know for me, Anita’s work was highly influential in my approach to writing for The Last of Us – greatly improving its story.
:)
Sorry to post that quote in every topic about gender, but IMO it does a perfect job of refuting the whole "b-but artistic vision censorship!" BS.

I don't see where anyone has called for censorship. Criticism does not equal censorship, nor does asking a developer to think about the content of a game before its made constitute censorship.
Indeed. But it's easier to demonize your opponent by pairing them with evil censors and prudes who hate fun.

Yeah I thought it was especially sexist when they had that prostitute say "me so horny" and "me love you long time".
I really cringed at the "love you long time" line.
 
I quite enjoyed the video. I guess I never really noticed the persuasiveness of prostitutes, hookers, etc in games mostly because I tend to avoid that stuff. The only time I notice it is when its part of the story (like meeting in a strip club or whatever for the mission start).
 
Top Bottom