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[Kinitari]

So... in the opinion of GAF, specifically people who don't like some of the aspects of video games like GTA that were highlighted in this video - what would you do different in GTA 6?

There is a lot of talk about what is bad, but I haven't seen a lot of talk about what potential solutions are. Personally, I am very conflicted on the idea of discouraging violence and sex in video games - but I don't think the evidence is in favour of violence or sex in video games having a significant effect on the human psyche. That aside, let's assume there was one - what should be done differently?

 

[neurosisxeno]

Ok, but context is everything - point me to anybody analyzing the medium in as serious a manner as this, and we have a basis for comparison. But otherwise, fair enough it may need finetuning but she's treating it as a serious responsible medium, and although her arguments are obviously carefully selected, it's not hard to string together this argument - because it's generally pretty accurate. This medium is in the stone age in it's depiction of females.

I wouldn't say it's in the Stone Age (Bronze Age maybe), but it could definitely make improvements (Ubisoft be damned). The problem is that nobody is really suggesting improvements, just pointing out that there is a problem. Anita is really no different in that regard. Yes, she is pointing out a lot of examples, but she is rarely (I haven't seen a single time) giving alternatives. To top it off whenever she got chances to speak with game developers following her successful Kickstarter, she made every appearance about her Internet harassment, and made almost no mention of the cause she was championing.

Again fair enough - but all the more reason that if there's a reasonable silent majority, they need to speak the fuck up and support this. The vocal minority argument only works when you have evidence to the contrary and tbh I don't see a huge amount of evidence to support. I'd like to agree with you, but the burden of proof is on us right now.

Do you know anyone that threatened\harassed Anita Saarkesian? Either in the past or present. Anyone on Neogaf vocally oppossing her as a person? Honestly everyone I've spoken to about this since the Kickstarter went live was interested in the idea (if not apprehensive because it holds certain risks). The Internet is always judged by the vocal minority. So far all we have is reports from Anita and some screenshots of now disabled Youtube comments--the latter being an area that is essentially the Internet's Septic System. I'm not saying she never faced disgustingly vile opposition, just that all signs point to it being a very vocal minority.

And if people in her position could hear consistent cogent arguments to the contrary, as opposed to knee jerk, "Don't attack the medium I love" messages, it'd probably be enough to tweak her message and give her a new song to sing. At this point, I'm really glad a polemic like this exists - industry, players and journos alike need to hear alarm bells, not a throat clearing.

There are plenty of people--journalists, bloggers, vloggers--who have respectfully pointed out flaws in her thinking and flaws in her claims, but those people are either dismissed or completely ignored. At the same time everytime a new Tropes vs Women comes out it gets full coverage on most gaming websites. Other than the delay, I think the biggest problem is Anita herself. Every person I know dislikes her, not because of her message but because of her personality. she seems very cold an unpersonable, as well as being very condescending whenever I hear her presenting information or giving an interview, and that won't get a message across very well. The best analogy I have is Richard Dawkins. He's a brilliant person, but he's a huge dickhead, and that somewhat rallies people to oppose him and his ideas. Alternatively, there are people like Neil Degrass Tyson, who are very soft spoken and personable, and they make for wonderful teachers.

I'd rather have them spend development resources on useful or interesting types of gameplay instead of throwaway fluff.

What you call throwaway fluff overall builds to a believable world. That's the point of it. Things like being able to buy property and invest money, being able to steal cars, none of it really furthers the storyline at all, but it fills in the gaps and makes the game world more believable. The series is an open-world action game -- fluff is kind of engrained in the concept. Sure, they could remove all that stuff, but the experience would be completely different. You'd basically be playing Mafia II but in modern times with the game pacing of an MMO -- mission after mission. Every mechanic in those games is basically fluff short of being able to drive cars and being able to shoot guns.

 

[Laconic]

So... in the opinion of GAF, specifically people who don't like some of the aspects of video games like GTA that were highlighted in this video - what would you do different in GTA 6?

There is a lot of talk about what is bad, but I haven't seen a lot of talk about what potential solutions are. Personally, I am very conflicted on the idea of discouraging violence and sex in video games - but I don't think the evidence is in favour of violence or sex in video games having a significant effect on the human psyche. That aside, let's assume there was one - what should be done differently?

I am of a mind to just let the market decide GTA's fate. I have always loathed them, in pretty much every way, finding them to be thoroughly reprehensible and utterly irredeemable. But I will be damned if I am going to tell the people who make, buy, or play them that they should stop. That's arrogant bollocks, all around. Opinions, and such.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

So do you want to start a thread about it? I'd wager that people have also noticed that to be rather messed up. You aren't having sex with these merchants though, which is the particularly foul mix of sex and violence that people criticize.

Didn't you yourself say earlier that the primary difference between hookers and random NPCs is the perception of a "refund" (if it was somebody else, then I apologize)? It sounds like you're shifting the goalposts here.

My point is that it doesn't matter. You can have sex in Fallout (the game she mentioned in the video). You can then kill the person - who can be of either gender - you had sex with just like any other NPC. But if that person's a woman it's sexist, whereas if it's a man then it's perfectly alright. It's a double standard, and it damages her point.

I haven't played a game with a male prostitute yet, but I've seen the female prostitute violence routine in GTA many times since the PS2 games. I'll take your word for it that male prostitutes are dying a dog's death in gaming somewhere, but killing female prostitutes in a game (and other sexually-charged acts of violence on women in games) these days is so old and worn out that it could be criticized on the simple, apolitical basis of "we're bored with that"

Fallout has them, at least in New Vegas. This is important, as she specifically calls out Fallout (not GTA) for letting you kill prostitutes.

 

[ChipotIe]

If you think South Park doesn't pick their targets, I think you might be naive. Show me the episode where they make fun of libertarianism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_j56IiLqZ9U

 

[border]

There is a lot of talk about what is bad, but I haven't seen a lot of talk about what potential solutions are.

That's the problem with all the Sarkeesian videos -- they are just criticism. Not constructive criticism, not prescriptive criticism. She only tells you what she thinks is wrong, but never tells you how she would like it fixed. I'm never sure if she wants games to be censored, or if she just wants more diverse representations. Would she be okay with GTA if the next 10 AAA games announced had a strong, non-sexualized female protagonist? I don't even know.

Personally I would drop the prostitutes from GTA since I feel they are played out and add basically nothing but cringe-inducing sex scenes. I would want to have at least one single female protagonist to GTA6, or go back to having a Clyde-like mute/vanilla protagonist that can be customized by gender and orientation. Her complaints about the NPCs are just dumb, so I wouldn't change that either way. The whole point of GTA's morality is that everyone in the world is obnoxious, awful, and vapid so you shouldn't feel bad about killing them. Giving NPCs a name, a voice, and a story makes no sense. It would be cool though if they had more female questgivers and bosses.

 

[Basketball]

So... in the opinion of GAF, specifically people who don't like some of the aspects of video games like GTA that were highlighted in this video - what would you do different in GTA 6?

There is a lot of talk about what is bad, but I haven't seen a lot of talk about what potential solutions are. Personally, I am very conflicted on the idea of discouraging violence and sex in video games - but I don't think the evidence is in favour of violence or sex in video games having a significant effect on the human psyche. That aside, let's assume there was one - what should be done differently?

I don't think anything in gta needs to change but I would welcome other gameplay additions not relating to the topic, an additional female protag on the team would be cool or maybe a character creator. They're plenty games in the medium for people to enjoy. New games come in almost every month Im sure they're is something for everyone.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

So... in the opinion of GAF, specifically people who don't like some of the aspects of video games like GTA that were highlighted in this video - what would you do different in GTA 6?

There is a lot of talk about what is bad, but I haven't seen a lot of talk about what potential solutions are. Personally, I am very conflicted on the idea of discouraging violence and sex in video games - but I don't think the evidence is in favour of violence or sex in video games having a significant effect on the human psyche. That aside, let's assume there was one - what should be done differently?

At least have an option to play as a woman.

 

[Brakke]

So... in the opinion of GAF, specifically people who don't like some of the aspects of video games like GTA that were highlighted in this video - what would you do different in GTA 6?

There is a lot of talk about what is bad, but I haven't seen a lot of talk about what potential solutions are. Personally, I am very conflicted on the idea of discouraging violence and sex in video games - but I don't think the evidence is in favour of violence or sex in video games having a significant effect on the human psyche. That aside, let's assume there was one - what should be done differently?

This question is interesting, sure, but far from necessary. Criticism is valuable as an end in itself.

In this case, maybe games are just a lens she's using to smash the patriarchy. That's enough of a goal. It's not incumbent on her to provide a good script. There's a million and one ways to do it right.

 

[ChipotIe]

That's the problem with all the Sarkeesian videos -- they are just criticism. Not constructive criticism, not prescriptive criticism. She only tells you what she thinks is wrong, but never tells you how she would like it fixed. I'm never sure if she wants games to be censored, or if she just wants more diverse representations.

That would be an interesting series indeed, what she considers an acceptable portrayal of sexuality in a videogame... if she isn't sex-negative afterall. I don't think she will go as far as proposing solutions because at the end of the day there is no easy way to write an all-inclusive scenario in a game that doesn't explicitly revolve around sexuality without being completely awkward.

At least have an option to play as a woman.

Apparently that's not a valid solution because she also attacked games where you can play as a women and both men and women were treated equally.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

The answer to what she wants is pretty simple. We just aren't allowed to talk about it in this thread.

?

 

[Tomohawk]

So... in the opinion of GAF, specifically people who don't like some of the aspects of video games like GTA that were highlighted in this video - what would you do different in GTA 6?

1.female protagonist
2.male strippers
3.profit???

 

[Chairmanchuck]

At least have an option to play as a woman.

I wonder what would change then. I mean a well written woman, nothing against that.
But even then, lets assume she is a criminal, tough and all these attributes. In the end people will call her just a man with boobs.

That's the problem with all the Sarkeesian videos -- they are just criticism. Not constructive criticism, not prescriptive criticism. She only tells you what she thinks is wrong, but never tells you how she would like it fixed.

In one of her videos she told what kind of portrayal she would like. So she showed off some generic fantasystory but instead of the man rescuing the princess
it is vice-versa.
What I never understood then was, that somehow it just felt like a simple genderswap. Just change the genders for the sake of it and thats, what she also criticised...

 

[Gestault]

In the end people will call her just a man with boobs.

It's ridiculous to dismiss good writing from interesting perspectives because theoretical, undefined "people" will say ignorant things about it. People say many things, it doesn't make them right, and it shouldn't take away from underlying quality.

 

[Tomohawk]

What I never understood then was, that somehow it just felt like a simple genderswap. Just change the genders for the sake of it and thats, what she also criticised...

I think the purpose of her example was to subvert gender roles.

 

[Karkador]

Didn't you yourself say earlier that the primary difference between hookers and random NPCs is the perception of a "refund" (if it was somebody else, then I apologize)? It sounds like you're shifting the goalposts here.

I said it several times that it's the mixture of having sex with an NPC and then killing them (in GTA games, at least) is significantly different from the regular NPC slaughter, and that mix of sex and violence will draw criticism. It doesn't have to be "omg people will go out and do this" criticism, but criticism like any creative work gets criticized.

The money thing was just an additional detail that I find people also point out, and it's also one that I downplayed anyhow because, like I said, money drops from NPCs in GTA are rather trivial and hardly what you could call a motivating reward.

That's the problem with all the Sarkeesian videos -- they are just criticism. Not constructive criticism, not prescriptive criticism. She only tells you what she thinks is wrong, but never tells you how she would like it fixed.

This always comes up in these threads, and I don't think there is an answer that will satisfy the scrutiny. If people are too specific in their creative demands, they are getting in the way of the creator's vision and not letting them do their job, people call it "censorship", and others say that more general advice is needed.

If people give general advice and just try to passively say " hey, this stuff was pretty bad, can you try it another way?", then the response is that there isn't enough hijacking of the creative process.

 

[Brakke]

I wouldn't say it's in the Stone Age (Bronze Age maybe), but it could definitely make improvements (Ubisoft be damned). The problem is that nobody is really suggesting improvements, just pointing out that there is a problem. Anita is really no different in that regard. Yes, she is pointing out a lot of examples, but she is rarely (I haven't seen a single time) giving alternatives. To top it off whenever she got chances to speak with game developers following her successful Kickstarter, she made every appearance about her Internet harassment, and made almost no mention of the cause she was championing.

She actually did spec out a treatment for a scenario starring a lady hero in one of her videos. Also, it's not her responsibility to do so.

Do you know anyone that threatenedharassed Anita Saarkesian? Either in the past or present. Anyone on Neogaf vocally oppossing her as a person? Honestly everyone I've spoken to about this since the Kickstarter went live was interested in the idea (if not apprehensive because it holds certain risks). The Internet is always judged by the vocal minority. So far all we have is reports from Anita and some screenshots of now disabled Youtube comments--the latter being an area that is essentially the Internet's Septic System. I'm not saying she never faced disgustingly vile opposition, just that all signs point to it being a very vocal minority.

This is ridiculous. Have you seen the mod edit to the OP? These threads get ugly. This one is probably being heavily moderated and a bunch of dingoes have already landed bans from previous threads. I saw posts get deleted off the first page. There are no signs that her harassment was from a very a small group of people.

 

[Kinitari]

This question is interesting, sure, but far from necessary. Criticism is valuable as an end in itself.

In this case, maybe games are just a lens she's using to smash the patriarchy. That's enough of a goal. It's not incumbent on her to provide a good script. There's a million and one ways to do it right.

Oh I'm not putting it on -her- to tell us what the solution is. Her complaints are as valid as anyone's, and I fully believe that there are many instances where you can criticize non-constructively.

I really ask because I see a lot of people agreeing (or disagreeing) with her in the thread, but the discussion rarely seems to go further than that.

So far the answers for my GTA question I've seen are mostly to allow for a female protagonist, and to potentially remove prostitutes from the game (although this seems to be more of a criticism of their poor use, not that the idea of having prostitutes in a game should be taboo).

That makes me think of a game like Fallout - where gender isn't thrust upon the characters involved, how does that change some Gaffers perspective on the matter? From what I can tell, Anita still criticizes games like fallout, but I think she is against the idea of prostitutes in games, thus all instances of them are bad - and because she is a feminist her focus is on the females (I'm sure if pressed she'd be against male prostitutes in fallout too).

But how does GAF feel - should there not be prostitutes at all in games? Or 'gritty' elements like an underground sex-trade or sexually charged violence?

 

[Infinite]

In one of her videos she told what kind of portrayal she would like. So she showed off some generic fantasystory but instead of the man rescuing the princess
it is vice-versa.
What I never understood then was, that somehow it just felt like a simple genderswap. Just change the genders for the sake of it and thats, what she also criticised...

No, what she did there was create a fictional game that subverted the damsel in distress trope by having the damsel in distress free herself from her own captivity and proceed on her own adventure. To call that a "simple gender swap" is disingenuous and misleading.

For the record Anita doesn't need to come up with a solution when she's criticizing.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

It's ridiculous to dismiss good writing from interesting perspectives because theoretical, undefined "people" will say ignorant things about it. People say many things, it doesn't make them right, and it shouldn't take away from underlying quality.

Sure. I totally agree with that. But I can guess that as soon as there will be a playable female criminal in the GTA series, people will just call her a man with boobs, because she would act similar to the male characters.

That is why I think some of Anitas points feel like hypocrisy. She says a simple genderswap would not suffice, then shows off her idea of a good portrayal of a woman in a game, that is exactly the same as a genderswap. A standard clichéd fantasy-story but instead of the guy rescuing the princess, it is the princess rescuing the guy.

Her whole videos just feel so shallow. I mean its cool, that someone tackles those topics, but her way is just like citing a TV-tropes page in videoform.
I want to see more solutions, more in-depth analysis about that, maybe some developer-interviews or really interviews with feminists on how to change that.
To me it just seems like, she is sitting on her high throne, dont want any discussion, but thinks what she says is right.
I would love to hear what she really had to say about Ico being the most "sexist" Game she played or why her idea of a fantasy-game is okay, even though its the same thing she just criticised earlier.

No, what she did there was create a fictional game that subverted the damsel in distress trope by having the damsel in distress free herself from her own captivity and proceed on her own adventure. To call that a "simple gender swap" is disingenuous and misleading.
.

I dont know. So many fantasy-games start with this setting. Guy gets captured, thrown in prison, then escapes himself. The Elder Scrolls titles the most popular ones that use that beginning.

 

[border]

What you call throwaway fluff overall builds to a believable world. That's the point of it. Things like being able to buy property and invest money, being able to steal cars, none of it really furthers the storyline at all, but it fills in the gaps and makes the game world more believable.

There's longer ways to answer this concern, but I'll just say that if not having prostitutes on streetcorners detracts that much from a world's believability in an important or integral way, then you are living in kind of a fucked up world. Most people don't patronize prostitutes, so their absence would not really be notable if removed. From traffic density to buildings that can't be entered to brainless NPCs -- there's probably hundreds of problems with GTA that are more immersion-breaking than a lack of hookers would be.

 

[DragonGirl]

If they were being presented in any kind of serious light I would agree. However since both works are based creating an absurd parody of reality and constantly reminding you how absurd it is I truly doubt that any mentally healthy adult is going to be influenced significantly in negative ways.

Little kids. Lots of little kids play all of these games. She also pointed out the studies that show the effects watching objectifying images have on the way women view themselves and the ways men view women. It acts on a subconscious level.

 

[Basketball]

There's longer ways to answer this concern, but I'll just say that if not having prostitutes on streetcorners detracts that much from a world's believability in an important or integral way, then you are living in kind of a fucked up world. Most people don't patronize prostitutes, so their absence would not really be notable if removed. From traffic density to buildings that can't be entered to brainless NPCs -- there's probably hundreds of problems with GTA that are more immersion-breaking than a lack of hookers would be.

welcome to los santos

 

[Aarglefarg]

Repeatedly referring to characters who do sex work as "prostituted" or as bought rather than paid was disappointing and detracted a lot from the video.

 

[border]

In one of her videos she told what kind of portrayal she would like. So she showed off some generic fantasystory but instead of the man rescuing the princess it is vice-versa.
What I never understood then was, that somehow it just felt like a simple genderswap. Just change the genders for the sake of it and thats, what she also criticised...

I remember that pretty clearly, but it still doesn't answer the question of whether she wants sexist female characters removed from games, or whether she merely wants more games that have non-sexist female characters. The problem is that she seems to take offense to any female character that isn't noble, admirable, or righteous......which doesn't leave a lot of room for a diversity of female characters.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Oh I'm not putting it on -her- to tell us what the solution is. Her complaints are as valid as anyone's, and I fully believe that there are many instances where you can criticize non-constructively.

I really ask because I see a lot of people agreeing (or disagreeing) with her in the thread, but the discussion rarely seems to go further than that.

So far the answers for my GTA question I've seen are mostly to allow for a female protagonist, and to potentially remove prostitutes from the game (although this seems to be more of a criticism of their poor use, not that the idea of having prostitutes in a game should be taboo).

That makes me think of a game like Fallout - where gender isn't thrust upon the characters involved, how does that change some Gaffers perspective on the matter? From what I can tell, Anita still criticizes games like fallout, but I think she is against the idea of prostitutes in games, thus all instances of them are bad - and because she is a feminist her focus is on the females (I'm sure if pressed she'd be against male prostitutes in fallout too).

But how does GAF feel - should there not be prostitutes at all in games? Or 'gritty' elements like an underground sex-trade or sexually charged violence?

The fact that we have to spend so much time arguing about what she's trying to say really shows how poorly put together her videos are. Thirteen pages and we finally found something worth discussing.

I guess it depends on the game. In the context of GTA (shitty, rundown city) and New Vegas (Las Vegas, obviously) they make sense. Their presence is less justifiable in games like Hitman that have significantly less world-building.

 

[neurosisxeno]

She actually did spec out a treatment for a scenario starring a lady hero in one of her videos. Also, it's not her responsibility to do so.

What is her responsibility then? Crticism itself is somewhat useless, constructive criticism is beneficial to the medium.

This is ridiculous. Have you seen the mod edit to the OP? These threads get ugly. This one is probably being heavily moderated and a bunch of dingoes have already landed bans from previous threads. I saw posts get deleted off the first page. There are no signs that her harassment was from a very a small group of people.

Would you say a minority or majority of people have been banned? I've seen maybe a handful over several pages, with dozens if not hundreds of people chiming in. That's a very small percentage. Such is the case with every non-YouTube comment section. Polygon always posts about her videos and the comment section there is surprisingly civil, with people making many good points. It's the Internet, "small group" is subjective. A small number of people on the Internet could still be thousands or a few million when you're talking about a network that connects billions of people.

There's longer ways to answer this concern, but I'll just say that if not having prostitutes on streetcorners detracts that much from a world's believability in an important or integral way, then you are living in kind of a fucked up world. Most people don't patronize prostitutes, so their absence would not really be notable if removed. From traffic density to buildings that can't be entered to brainless NPCs -- there's probably hundreds of problems with GTA that are more immersion-breaking than a lack of hookers would be.

You're deflecting. The point I was making was that removing fluff elements one by one would remove from the atmosphere of the game world, in a game that is kind of driven by it's game world. I don't care whether or not that specific feature stays, just that you can't dismiss features you don't like as unnecessary fluff without seeing their impact on the big picture. There are plenty of completely avoidable mechanics in the GTA series that some people completely ignore but them being there adds depth.

 

[Basketball]

Little kids. Lots of little kids play all of these games. She also pointed out the studies that show the effects watching objectifying images have on the way women view themselves and the ways men view women. It acts on a subconscious level.

I don't want little kids playing Gta v but they definitely are and this issue is just one of many in the game that I don't want them to be exposed to (parents/guardians at fault ). The violence, the language, the drug use , sexual themes , nudity

clearly the game has mature content not meant to be seen/heard by children but it still doesn't mean this content should changed/diminished for those who can handle it and or those who see it for what it really is ... just a game.

 

[Kinitari]

The fact that we have to spend so much time arguing about what she's trying to say really shows how poorly put together her videos are. Thirteen pages and we finally found something worth discussing.

I guess it depends on the game. In the context of GTA (shitty, rundown city) and New Vegas (Las Vegas, obviously) they make sense. Their presence is less justifiable in games like Hitman that have significantly less world-building.

Hmm, so you're of the opinion that depending on the context of the game, there is a justifiable representation of these themes - and some games do a poor job justifying these themes?

So a game like Destiny shouldn't in your opinion address these themes, but in a game like God of War, it's justifiable?

I can kind of see what you're saying, but I'm having trouble with this line. In that I can't actually find it - I don't know what makes it justifiable in one but not the other.

 

[Brakke]

What is her responsibility then? Crticism itself is somewhat useless, constructive criticism is beneficial to the medium.

Her criticism is constructive. She's not just saying "these things are bad", she's saying why these depictions are bad. If you're a creator, she's already offered one solution "if the thing I'm making falls into these patterns then I'm blowing it or I need to think about why my work fits this pattern and if it's worth perpetuating.".

People don't study literature just to learn how to write. People read criticism to learn how to read. And how to think. This series isn't just about video games, it's about the society we live and breath and construct every day.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

What's with the flash use of Watch_Dogs' human trafficking scene?
So even when a game is shining a light on the scummiest part of society and asking questions about it.....they shouldn't be?
I mean, is she even asking a question here or just listing naked women in games?

I agree that liberal use of prostitution and strip clubs in games is just dizzying and really quite bizzare, its like a Chuck Lorre production en masse....but she doesn't seem to differentiate one game for an other, or even what the message being said is.
It's just a blanket sweep of all. It feels like passive censorship to be honest.

 

[SeanNoonan]

Her criticism is constructive. She's not just saying "these things are bad", she's saying why these depictions are bad.

I am curious, going with the Watch_Dogs example she used (which I actually made), what exactly was she explaining? That the game depicted naked women?

The depiction of prostitutes in these games are so, so cringe-worthy

Also, this. Seriously bad, I can only imagine the wincing of the voice actresses.

 

[hateradio]

I hope at the very least she stops saying "prostituted women". Sex worker is the preferred term and it's such common usage in feminist circles (the right ones anyway) that I am a bit surprised and disappointed that she didn't use it.

From the way these women are depicted in several games, they are very much "prostituted"; remember the example in which the player helps swap women ("hos") from a competitor pimp to a brothel.

Do we get the women's opinions of whether they wanted to continue to work? We don't.

Since we don't know their stories, we cannot know if these women decided to be sex workers. If the phrase changed to sex worker, it would be fine, but because of the nature NPCs, we don't know their motivations.

In effect, however, these NPCs are prostituted by the game designers. Whether or not Anita should have called them sex workers, is left open.

Apparently that's not a valid solution because she also attacked games where you can play as a women and both men and women were treated equally.

Do you mean the Mass Effect and Dragon Age examples? She points out that even if it is a woman character looking at another woman, the fact remains that woman are there as decoration for men; contrary to male decoration which is usually a small fraction and/or made to be a joke.

Like someone else mentioned, she didn't include any of the egregious moments featuring Miranda's looks or even the fact that Edi, a cyborg, had a vagina, which is clearly visible in the PC version.

She could have also used the statistics that BioWare provided, in which only about 18% of the players, if I remember correctly, played as female Shepard. The gender divide of the players is left unknown, however.

The solution is to explore sex in a positive way, that goes beyond the tropes which she's presenting.

 

[Pau]

But how does GAF feel - should there not be prostitutes at all in games? Or 'gritty' elements like an underground sex-trade or sexually charged violence?

I can't really speak for GTA since I've played so little of it, but this is a more general answer.

The depiction of sex workers in fiction is all sorts of fucked up because writers (at least in the case of Frank Millers) seem to be getting their idea of prostitutes from other fiction and not the reality of it. They either glamorize sex work or make it into a madonna/whore type of complex or the prostitute has to be saved by a man. Of course, this isn't something exclusive to video games or exclusive to sex work in fiction. A story (and/or gameplay) that views sex workers as people with agency instead of "background decoration" sounds like it's beyond the scope of video game writers (and many writers) at the moment.

I dunno, to me it seems like inclusion of these things is just shorthand for how terrible things are without actually engaging enough with it to make the player (intentionally) uncomfortable. They want to show how "gritty" stuff is but not really. So about a 12-year-old's idea of mature, which sounds like the intention.

And in general, it's hard for some people to write or portray sex work or sexually charged violence in ways that don't feel super gross. If it's something writers want to keep including, they'll be criticized (and I don't mean inherently in a negative sense, but that there will be discussion about the decisions.) When writing anything, you want to ask yourself, what is the purpose of including this? Is there a more simple, elegant, effective way to convey this? Who is my audience, and do I care about what impact this might have on my audience or potential audience? Etc. I honestly don't see the point of putting it in because many times it detracts far more than it adds to anything. But then, I'd be more interested in more education about real sex work, a focus on sex worker rights, education about sexual violence against sex workers, etc. But people don't seem to think that's a story worth telling. The problem arises when this fictional trope is all people know about actual sex work. If people want to keep telling the same fictional stories about sex work in the same terribly executed way, they're gonna be called out for it. And I think it's fair to question why these specific stories have been latched on to, and what they might mean for sex workers who aren't fictional constructs but real people.

 

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

Splendid video, as always with her series. And as usual, during the video I ended up feeling sick. I find unbelievable that some people don't understand the crucial difference between videogames and any other media form: videogames are interactive, experimentation is encouraged with basically 0 consequences, and game design considers various mechanics of action+reward, like exploring a hidden area and finding some loot: as Anita very clearly shows in the video, a lot of times in a lot of videogames women are used as sexual objects to achieve a similar goal. That's simply disgusting. That achievement from Red Dead Redemption? I almost threw up.

I also find incredible that mods had to insert those obvious points in the OP: evidently here it's impossible to have some actual discussion on the topic that's not filled with irrelevant bullshit.

As for the "constructive criticism" argument, these videos could be perfectly valid and worthy to be considered and judged in their own right even if they didn't contain any suggestion for solving the problem, but they actually do: don't do these things, learn to write actual female characters that are not tokens and don't act like vending machines, completely remove those mechanics from games: if you can't write a mechanic that involves sex and prostitutes but also has realistic NPCs and real consequences for wrong doing (like game over, or permanent consequences like all other women characters treating you like shit for the entire duration of the game) you simply DON'T include that mechanic in your game.

The way women are depicted in media, especially in videogames where everything matters much more due to their interactive nature, is to me the number one cultural problem in the human society, and I'm glad that people like Anita work hard to carefully unmask those toxic tropes.

 

[B-Genius]

Regardless of the direct influence on people though, selling that kind of power fantasy as an important element of many of today's most popular games is definitely disturbing, and it is a problem. I really dislike the negative, stereotyped images being portrayed. But what can be done? That's hard. Just equalizing thing by sexualizing men more is not, as she says, a complete answer, because of the vastly different societal positions men and women have, but it's a start at least; more equality in these depictions might do some good, even though the depictions of women are certainly a bigger issue because of the continuing effects of sexism in society. Of course, cutting those things out is another way, but I doubt that would actually happen... not entirely, at least. And that would be more just hiding the general societal problem this is a reflection of, rather than addressing it...

It's definitely a start. A little off-topic perhaps, but the male and female skimpy outfits in FFXIV are a good recent example of a step in the right direction.

You're ignoring the point, when they finally catch you you essentially aren't punished at all, because doing those violent things to innocents is fun, and you wouldn't want to ruin the players' fun, right?

This was touched upon earlier, but it's more an issue with the game as a whole and how it tackles morality/justice. Sarkeesian has in this case bent a mechanic in an open world sandbox game (where in context the rules are literally made to be broken) to vaguely reflect her case for violence against women explicitly going unpunished.

Killing for a refund has been around forever in games. In games like Oblivion and Skyrim, the shopkeepers keep their inventory usually in separate chests, so many times if you are a cheap skate, you can buy what you need then kill them to get your money back. I know I did this in Fallout 3 because in the Evergreen Mills there is a bandit shopkeeper with a unique shotgun and he had a locked cabinet with his inventory in it. Getting refunds via clubbing the other person is more of gamers playing the mechanics of the game. I doubt anyone is also really racist to all those Khajiit traders wandering between towns, but I bet the thought has crossed many peoples' minds since they hold random loot and are really vulnerable with barely any guards around.

So yes, it occurs in many mechanical forms, as well as contextual forms within the fantasy environment that is the game world.

As was the case with the previous videos, the danger here is not necessarily prejudice or violence against women, but simply a lack of creativity/imagination on the part of the developers. For better or worse, strippers and hookers exist in the real world, so they are depicted in certain games as "flavour" - to add grit or sleazy realism as Sarkeesian put it.

I've never been in an actual strip club, or paid money for sex. I've done both in video games. I understand why people might do these things in real life. I understand that there are certain things the human body and mind craves that we can't always have - this goes for both men and women. I was watching all those clips side by side in the video, and it made me think - if these devs are going for realistic, gritty depictions of the real world, they should perhaps consider including gay bars/strip clubs too. As mentioned above, that would at least bring some form of equality.

A GTA representation of a gay bar would raise some other eyebrows no doubt, but at least it would be a step in the right direction for inclusivity.
There was a clip of one part of Watchdogs as well - it looked like some artsy photo shoot with half-naked models standing on a stage (I haven't played the game, so apologies for not speaking in context here). I think it would be great to have some male models up there as well, full-frontal. That would send an interesting message to the players (the audience/participant) about this world that they're choosing to carry out their fantasies in, and maybe make them think again about the real world they're living in as well.

 

[Brakke]

I am curious, going with the Watch_Dogs example she used (which I actually made), what exactly was she explaining? That the game depicted naked women?


Also, this. Seriously bad, I can only imagine the wincing of the voice actresses.

I haven't played Watch_Dogs and it's only in the video as part of a montage in which she's talking about women-as-sex-objects being pervasive to the point of obligatory especially in open world games. Did she even call it out by name? Can't say if that's on-point or not.

 

[hateradio]

I am curious, going with the Watch_Dogs example she used (which I actually made), what exactly was she explaining? That the game depicted naked women?

I think the point is that women's bodies are freely available to display how seedy things are, and nothing else.

We know organizations/people are seedy because they're doing criminal things, and we know that human trafficking is awful. Do we really need to see these women naked on a stage to validate that point? Not really. It actually glamorizes human trafficking in a way.

Look how beautiful the women are, and the prices are insane! Idk.

Does the game display women being kidnapped, removed from their families? I haven't played it yet. I feel like that would be a better way to get people invested.

 

[SmoothBrain]

She makes valid points, yes, but it's lacking suggestions how to do a better job. Also, the part about objectification of women, because prostitues offer their services... It's open for discussion if using these services should be part of a game, but that's how paying for sex actually works, so I don't know how to feel about this point. What's really bad in this context is the fact that men tend to disrespect the working women, but that seems to be more a cutural difference, as I was told.

 

[Basketball]

A GTA representation of a gay bar would raise some other eyebrows no doubt, but at least it would be a step in the right direction for inclusivity.
There was a clip of one part of Watchdogs as well - it looked like some artsy photo shoot with half-naked models standing on a stage (I haven't played the game, so apologies for not speaking in context here). I think it would be great to have some male models up there as well, full-frontal. That would send an interesting message to the players (the audience/participant) about this world that they're choosing to carry out their fantasies in, and maybe make them think again about the real world they're living in as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bWmF09hknY

http://gta.wikia.com/Hercules

the main character is not gay but Rockstar has included them in their games (from the popular and well received Dlc for gta 4 Ballad of Gay Tony)

There many gay clubs in Gta 5 but non of the clubs or enterable gay or straight (one for a brief single mission only).

 

[IdreamofHIME]

If you didn't play videogames, you would think NPC are only sexual females after watching this. Horrible misinformation and almost propaganda-esque.
Would it hurt her point to show the same heinous acts being produced against male NPC? That Sleeping Dogs clip was the worst. Damn.

 

[SeanNoonan]

I think the point is that women's bodies are freely available to display how seedy things are, and nothing else.

We know organizations/people are seedy because they're doing criminal things, and we know that human trafficking is awful. Do we really need to see these women naked on a stage to validate that point? Not really. It actually glamorizes human trafficking in a way.

Look how beautiful the women are, and the prices are insane! Idk.

Does the game display women being kidnapped, removed from their families? I haven't played it yet. I feel like that would be a better way to get people invested.

They're not freely available - but then that's down to context anyway. The scene is a part of a long winded and complex part of the game's plot, they aren't just nameless sex objects.

The scene may not be perfect, but I don't agree with it's inclusion for the reasons she mentioned.

As a side point, and to reiterate my previous post, I cannot believe how cringeworthy the treatment and performances are here - it makes me curious if the worst offenders feature equally poor execution across the rest of the game.

 

[IdreamofHIME]

I

A GTA representation of a gay bar would raise some other eyebrows no doubt, but at least it would be a step in the right direction for inclusivity.
There was a clip of one part of Watchdogs as well - it looked like some artsy photo shoot with half-naked models standing on a stage (I haven't played the game, so apologies for not speaking in context here). I think it would be great to have some male models up there as well, full-frontal. That would send an interesting message to the players (the audience/participant) about this world that they're choosing to carry out their fantasies in, and maybe make them think again about the real world they're living in as well.

A: There is a major gay club in GTAIV, filled with likeable and great written characters.
B: That's not a photo shoot, it's a auction of women from the Human Trafficking mission. Your mission is to stop it, free the prisoners and have those involved arrested.
But I like that you didn't know that, it show hows her slick editing with no context or explanation slyly backs her objective.

 

[Fjordson]

IA GTA representation of a gay bar would raise some other eyebrows no doubt, but at least it would be a step in the right direction for inclusivity.

Already has been. The protagonist in The Ballad of Gay Tony worked for a gay night club owner in Liberty City. And he was actually one of the best characters in that entire game.

Spoiler

they also had male nudity, but I can't remember if that was in Ballad of Gay Tony or Lost & Damned

edit: damn, beaten badly

 

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

That makes me think of a game like Fallout - where gender isn't thrust upon the characters involved, how does that change some Gaffers perspective on the matter? From what I can tell, Anita still criticizes games like fallout, but I think she is against the idea of prostitutes in games, thus all instances of them are bad - and because she is a feminist her focus is on the females (I'm sure if pressed she'd be against male prostitutes in fallout too).

But how does GAF feel - should there not be prostitutes at all in games? Or 'gritty' elements like an underground sex-trade or sexually charged violence?

In her video Anita doesn't say that she is against the idea of prostitutes in games, but is against the way they are used as a game mechanic.

Here's a few points that would allow a game to be more realistic on that side:

1) first of all, prostitutes exist, but they are real human beings, while in games they are mostly based on the way prostitutes are depicted in other media, like movies and comics: there's no depth in their characters, there's no line of text that is not about using her as a sexual object, there's nothing that suggests that they don't like their condition, that maybe they are forced to do it with the threat of violence, that they are unhappy or that they still have a life beyond the "job": game writers simply use token characters to depict something that should be treated with more respect;

2) don't reward players with actual perks for having sex with a prostitute: there should be a loss on the main character's side for taking advantage of a prostitute, if possible not only a economic loss, but also in "reputation" or something: make other characters treat you differently if you frequently engage in sex with prostitutes;

3) if you commit violent acts against prostitutes in the game (I mean you the player, not the character, because the character does what the player wants it to do) there should be actual real deep consequences: if the character is caught by police, it's game over, you go back to before the murder or violence and think about what you're doing; even if there's no police involved, the main character should gradually be treated differently by other characters, to the point that if the character constantly practices violence on prostitutes just for fun, then other female (or male) characters actually become hostile to the main character in a sort of Dark Souls fashion, and that's for the entirety of the game: you had fun by acting like a monster? Well, you're going to suffer consequences.

Actual, real consequences in-game, that's what these "simulators" lack. I'm not talking about consequences for engaging in perilous activities like extreme sports or something: if for a round of motocross your character ends up with a broken leg for the rest of the game, than the game wouldn't be that fun. But it's a completely different matter when it comes to treating women characters as sexual object that can be used as vending machines and then thrown away: Anita explained all this perfectly in the video so I'm not going to repeat all her arguments, but that's the main point.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

2) don't reward players with actual perks for having sex with a prostitute: there should be a loss on the main character's side for taking advantage of a prostitute, if possible not only a economic loss, but also in "reputation" or something: make other characters treat you differently if you frequently engage in sex with prostitutes;

Why should there be losses if a character engages with a prostitute? There is nothing bad about having sex with a prostitute.
At least not here in most european countries.

To some people its the same as going to the bakery every morning. There is no real stigma attached to it if they go to a normal "sex worker".

3) if you commit violent acts against prostitutes in the game (I mean you the player, not the character, because the character does what the player wants it to do) there should be actual real deep consequences: if the character is caught by police, it's game over, you go back to before the murder or violence and think about what you're doing; even if there's no police involved, the main character should gradually be treated differently by other characters, to the point that if the character constantly practices violence on prostitutes just for fun, then other female (or male) characters actually become hostile to the main character in a sort of Dark Souls fashion, and that's for the entirety of the game: you had fun by acting like a monster? Well, you're going to suffer consequences.

I do not get it. Shouldnt that apply to all NPCs, not just prostitutes?

 

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

It's definitely a start. A little off-topic perhaps, but the male and female skimpy outfits in FFXIV are a good recent example of a step in the right direction.

This was touched upon earlier, but it's more an issue with the game as a whole and how it tackles morality/justice. Sarkeesian has in this case bent a mechanic in an open world sandbox game (where in context the rules are literally made to be broken) to vaguely reflect her case for violence against women explicitly going unpunished.

Inclusivity and equality is irrelevant in this case, and Anita actually explained that: women start from a disadvantageous position in this matters, and if even if some games with mirrored roles existed, their depiction of men would be seen as nothing more than distraction to make fun of other tropes. Two wrongs don't make a right.

As for the bolded part, let me clarify the point: bending the rules of a sandbox to make acts that exclusively reflect on the main character and have no real consequences is what makes a sandbox fun, like jumping from a skyscraper and suffering minimal damage; but doing acts of violence against other characters, especially if those characters are depicted as helpless sexual objects, without suffering any consequence in-game is wrong and has really bad consequences on the society as a whole.

 

[Basketball]

I disagree

the little consequences in open world games like Gta is what makes it fun tbh or at least it reminds you that it's still a game.

I couldn't imagine a gta with a gameover screen if you lay a finger on an npc

 

[ExFalsoQuodlibet]

Why should there be losses if a character engages with a prostitute? There is nothing bad about having sex with a prostitute.
At least not here in most european countries.

Just a few years ago, in some european countries, there was nothing bad in murdering jews either. The fact that something is, to a certain level, "accepted" doesn't make it right. You didn't understand my point, let me clarify: abuse of female sexual objects in a game shouldn't be treated as a regular, casual activity; even if the job is legal in some countries, it's a diminishing activity for most women and carries actual cultural weight.

I do not get it. Shouldnt that apply to all NPCs, not just prostitutes?

Yes it should, this is just a particular example that can have particular sets of consequences.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

Just a few years ago, in some european countries, there was nothing bad in murdering jews either. The fact that something is, to a certain level, "accepted" doesn't make it right. You didn't understand my point, let me clarify: abuse of female sexual objects in a game shouldn't be treated as a regular, casual activity; even if the job is legal in some countries, it's a diminishing activity for most women and carries actual cultural weight.
.

What kind of abuse is it if you are sleeping with a prostitute, that choosed to earn money like that?

Your second point reads like that you shouldnt be able to sleep with prostitutes in a game at all.
I do not think thats true. As you said. Prostitues are real woman. Here in europe many take this job since they can earn good money with it. If they are working legally, no one is abused.

Yes it should, this is just a particular example that can have particular sets of consequences.

I dont really think thats possible to code a Game like that. I dont really see why NPCs should act different because you shoot a prostitute or an old grandma or some 20years old someone.