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[Kinvara]

Don't you mean Jewish? Going by the first part of your sentence? The Nazis persecuted the Jews. Not themselves.

The Jews were German technically but they were not seen as true Germans by those of the Nazi Party which is why they were persecuted.

It's Lega Nord, they are the biggest racist scum we have in Italy. Yes, it's racist. But I was just arguing that people who celebrate this dutch holiday aren't necessarily racist and that they don't have same history and context like someone from the US. These people aren't part of super racist group like Lega Nord. I'm not sure what you trying by constantly pointing out how racist my country is.

The Netherlands were heavily involved in the transatlantic slave trade and, of course, imperialism (see South Africa). They don't get a free pass on the racism issue- no one does.

 

[DC R1D3R]

It might be a good thing to listen to what black people in netherlands have to say before people who don't live there get offended on their behalf.

unfortunately, a whole lot of black people aren't aware of their true history. centuries of subjugation, physical and emotional suppression, physical and emotional torture, public castrations, beatings and murders has seen to that.

alas.

 

[aeolist]

It might be a good thing to listen to what black people in netherlands have to say before people who don't live there get offended on their behalf.

ok how about this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinsy_Gario

 

[Kinvara]

It might be a good thing to listen to what black people in netherlands have to say before people who don't live there get offended on their behalf.

They already have.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

oh my god is this happening again

 

[aeolist]

Gario came to the Netherlands with his mother for the first time in 1987. He says he never really noticed the Zwarte Piets during his first few years in the country, but one day his mother came home from work in shock because the receptionist had called her the office’s own “Zwarte Piet” as she entered the building.

boy i sure am glad that this lovely tradition isn't racist at all and doesn't hurt anybody

 

[Retro_]

They already have.

Self-Righteous American tourists obviously

 

[DC R1D3R]

I learn my history from NeoGAF OT.

Thank you, DC R1D3R

your welcome bro

 

[Minister of the Dog]

again, it's ok to be ignorant, but once you're informed of how your time-honored traditions are really hurtful and bigoted you can either be a decent person and realize that blackface is unacceptable or just ignore what everyone is telling you and continue as if nothing happened

at that point you're a racist

People have explained why it's racist in the U.S. and citizens from the Low Countries have stated that they understand this point, but that the tradition doesn't have a racist intention there, with other European users saying that they weren't even familiar with the blackface problematic in the first place.

Trying to call a whole country racist based on this is quite ethnocentric, I think.

 

[Benutzer]

Agreed. This year I plan on going out as my favorite Asian movie characters and have decided to tape my eyes to look more slanted. Ya know, to complete the authenticity. Everyone will be cool with that, what could possibly go wrong (if no Asians are in attendance)?

By the way, the dude dressed as Mr. T looked great.

Don't forget your fake asian buck teeth!!!

Finding a good Mr T costume wasn't easy.

Spoiler

Most look exactly like you imagine they would...

 

[DC R1D3R]

They already have.

k.....we could have a problem here lads

 

[ConfusingJazz]

oh my god is this happening again

I know, I am excited too!

 

[aeolist]

People have explained why it's racist in the U.S. and citizens from the Low Countries have stated that they understand this point, but that the tradition doesn't have a racist intention there, with other European users saying that they weren't even familiar with the blackface problematic in the first place.

Trying to call a whole country racist based on this is quite ethnocentric, I think.

intent does not matter here, the effect is racist

and nobody is saying that literally everyone in the netherlands are racist

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

There's not exactly a whole lot of white-face images to choose from that aren't involved in a comedy bit, dude. White-face isn't as prevalent in the Black community like Black-face in the White community. Not even close.

And the whole point is that white-face/black-face will always be seen as a joke, and by extension mockery. It will never be taken serious like someone was just trying to complete a costume and that's it, like fnboi was trying to allude to, yet thought the idea of a Black guy in white-face make-up dressed as Brian Willaims was funny, it is universally unnecessary and awkward looking.

I've always felt that black people going white is kind of like coloring a black piece of paper with a white marker. It's fucking hard. Their natural skin color overpowers the make up so the end result is awkward. Black face looks stupid too but I feel like the point is more apparent, hence why it happens more often. The Dave Chappelle skit is a perfect example of this, he's wearing a ridiculous amount of Hollywood makeup for him to get the point across. .

 

[kamorra]

I'm not sure if it matters because I'm already branded as a racist person but the picture above showing the protesters made me think. It's the first time I see protesters against that holiday. I feel conflicted to be honest, especially because I've had to endure racism for my whole life myself.

I still think that our culture, history and context is very different and I don't like when other countries try to force their ideology on other countries. I still think that the majority of dutch people who celebrate this aren't racist. But if black people in the Netherlands are protesting it something has to be wrong. Maybe it really has to change.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Not that year, not at that place.

But we wouldn't play stuff like 12 Years a Slave to begin with, especially not in schools, because we generally don't really care all that much about US history or literature. In this particular context, it's mostly about religious plays involving the Three Wise Men, which are traditionally performed every year around Christmas, as well as plays including Saint Mauritius. And Othello of course, which was actually performed by the theater club of my school once.

My 5'th grade class put on a play about the American Revolution.

A white girl played George Washington. An Asian dude played Thomas Jefferson. Another White girl played George Washington's right hand slave. A skinny Black kid was John Hancock.

No Whiteface/Blackface/gender surgery was used in the production of this play. As that would have been unnecessary and awkward.

I can totally understand If your school is without certain ethnic people to play ethnic parts, but that doesn't mean the next obvious step is black-face. If your schools can't teach your children that certain people were of certain races without parading kids around in race make-up then that school is shit and not doing their jobs.

No one at my school thought Thomas Jefferson was a chubby Asian guy and George Washington's favorite slave was a pretty white girl when that play ended.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

If people can get mad at the Chinese for having a dog eating festival, African Americans can get mad at a holiday in Europe that celebrates blackface

 

[Dr. Feel Good]

My 5'th grade class put on a play about the American Revolution.

A white girl played George Washington. An Asian dude played Thomas Jefferson. Another White girl played George Washington's right hand slave. A skinny Black kid was John Hancock.

No Whiteface/Blackface/gender surgery was used in the production of this play. As that would have been unnecessary and awkward.

I can totally understand If your school is without certain ethnic people to play ethnic parts, but that doesn't mean the next obvious step is black-face. If your schools can't teach your children that certain people were of certain races without parading kids around in race make-up then that school is shit and not doing their jobs.

No one at my school thought Thomas Jefferson was a chubby Asian guy and George Washington's favorite slave was a pretty white girl when that play ended.

I don't understand this logic. The reason we don't paint white kids faces to play black parts is because no one gives a fuck because it's a kids play.

If Broadway put on a play about 12 Years a Slave, by your logic, shouldn't the role of the slaves be open to white and Asian people? Isn't it racist to exclude them?

 

[spekkeh]

Oo weekly blackface thread.

The remark to Kardashian obviously had racist undertones. Zwarte Piet itself I would say is not exactly racist in its contemporary form, because (apart from a grating line in one of the old Sinterklaas songs and the fact they used to be called servants) it doesn't really comment on racial questions and in fact is a very well liked everyman's friend. It is very stereotypical however, and I could definitely see why this would be offensive. If the tradition has to stay (I'm ambivalent about it), they would be wise to stop doing the red lips and maybe frizzy hair thing. And introduce a few half-covered-in-soot Piets.

 

[Zeus Molecules]

My 5'th grade class put on a play about the American Revolution.

A white girl played George Washington. An Asian dude played Thomas Jefferson. Another White girl played George Washington's right hand slave. A skinny Black kid was John Hancock.

No Whiteface/Blackface/gender surgery was used in the production of this play. As that would have been unnecessary and awkward.

I can totally understand If your school is without certain ethnic people to play ethnic parts, but that doesn't mean the next obvious step is black-face. If your schools can't teach your children that certain people were of certain races without parading kids around in race make-up then that school is shit and not doing their jobs.

No one at my school thought Thomas Jefferson was a chubby Asian guy and George Washington's favorite slave was a pretty white girl when that play ended.

When did George Washington have a right hand slave? Slavery wasn't like being the boss's personal assistant....

I mean if it was Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings I could understand the reference

 

[Loakum]

*sigh* everything about this.."event" seems so scripted and fake. Just more "drama fodder" for their lame reality show.

 

[Minister of the Dog]

intent does not matter here, the effect is racist

and nobody is saying that literally everyone in the netherlands are racist

There's a link on the post you quoted which shows that more than 90% of Dutch citizens are in favour of this tradition, hence why yes, the implication is that (OK, almost) the whole country of the Netherlands is racist, going by your comment.

Again, the effect mustn't be racist when viewed from the Dutch culture, seeing as the Dutch people don't seem to think of it as racist, generally speaking. It must be seen as racist when viewed from a U.S. perspective, seeing as there's an almost unanimous sentiment within U.S. users.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

When did George Washington have a right hand slave? Slavery wasn't like being the boss's personal assistant....

I mean if it was Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings I could understand the reference

George Washington had a personal valet/slave, William Lee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lee_(valet)

 

[Slayven]

They just look like a black/white/asian/whatever version of a character.

Nope, Black Superman has the S shield inverted.

 

[aeolist]

There's a link on the post you quoted which shows that more than 90% of Dutch citizens are in favour of this tradition, hence why yes, the implication is that (OK, almost) the whole country of the Netherlands is racist, going by your comment.

Again, the effect mustn't be racist when viewed from the Dutch culture, seeing as the Dutch people don't seem to think of it as racist, generally speaking. It must be seen as racist when viewed from a U.S. perspective, seeing as there's an almost unanimous sentiment within U.S. users.

i would say that most of them are probably just ignorant and uneducated about the matter

those who know that it offends black people and don't care are racist. i wouldn't care to speculate as to how many people in that 92% fall into this category.

 

[Minister of the Dog]

i would say that most of them are probably just ignorant and uneducated about the matter

those who know that it offends black people and don't care are racist. i wouldn't care to speculate as to how many people in that 92% fall into this category.

Again, I think your first sentence is very ethnocentric. When you claim that they're ignorant I understand you mean that they're ignorant in the way it's viewed and frowned upon within your culture. It's clear that, at least for one day of the year, it's viewed positively in the Netherlands, so you're calling them ignorant based on your own intepretation of what's right and wrong, which is heavily influenced by your environment.

I have no way of knowing about the differentiation you make below, I only found information I already linked, and already trusted Google Translate too much.

 

[PBY]

So much of this shit BLOWS MY MIND.


50 years ago, in the south.. I mean, the culture was fine, it was all a joke, etc, etc.

I don't care to speak about another country's situation- but the basic underlying logic is fundamentally flawed. If that's the best rationale you can come up with, well then...

 

[Flo_Evans]

Idk how shocked you can be to see/hear racist shit at an old rich white people party.

 

[genjiZERO]

As far as Zwarte Piet is concerned I feel like I can see both sides of the argument. I agree with the Europeans that it's not strictly "blackface" (as a minstrel show is), and that the intent is likely not to be racist (because he's simply a bad depiction of a dark-skinned Moor). However, what I think they miss is that, even if that is the case, the historical depiction of dark-skinned Moors is itself racist - it's a stereotyped caricature with no attempt to depict other humans accurately.

 

[aeolist]

Again, I think your first sentence is very ethnocentric. When you claim that they're ignorant I understand you mean that they're ignorant in the way it's viewed and frowned upon within your culture. It's clear that, at least for one day of the year, it's viewed positively in the Netherlands, so you're calling them ignorant based on your own intepretation of what's right and wrong, which is heavily influenced by your environment.

I have no way of knowing about the differentiation you make below, I only found information I already linked, and already trusted Google Translate too much.

the fact that it's viewed positively by a majority doesn't mean anything, majority rules should never be the case for instances of oppression and bigotry. there are links on this page about black people who live in the netherlands and are offended by the practice. it's racist.

 

[Benutzer]

well because this guy is obviously dressed as mr t. not "a white mr t from some parallel universe" just mr t. if i put on superman's costume, i am dressing up as superman. that's it. i'm in costume portraying a character. im not creating my own spinoff parallel universe character that is a black guy in superman's costume.

I don't get your point... Does a black guy dressing up as Mr T need his "own spinoff parallel universe" because he is not as tall as the original? You can't portray a character perfectly, nobody can. You try to get as close to the character as possible and have fun pretending to be superman.

 

[PBY]

I'm always shocked at the lengths we go to to justify something- that if you take a step back, is really, just nonsense thing that confers no benefit. Same w/ the Redskins- there's no REAL reason to hang on so aggressively, but yet we do.

 

[Thorakai]

There's a link on the post you quoted which shows that more than 90% of Dutch citizens are in favour of this tradition, hence why yes, the implication is that (OK, almost) the whole country of the Netherlands is racist, going by your comment.

Again, the effect mustn't be racist when viewed from the Dutch culture, seeing as the Dutch people don't seem to think of it as racist, generally speaking. It must be seen as racist when viewed from a U.S. perspective, seeing as there's an almost unanimous sentiment within U.S. users.

This isn't a good way of gauging whether something is racist or not. I think we can agree that there are indisputably racist acts, say barring blacks from sitting inside restaurants. Not too long ago this act was pretty common in the United States. If an outside European country looked at this practice in the U.S. and accused them of racism, I don't think an acceptable response would be: "this is widely accepted around here! If you think this is racist then its only because you refuse to see the world from anything outside your own lens!" I'm not trying to make a 1:1 comparison between the two events here. Just trying to show how popular sentiment in a country doesn't really do much to elucidate whether something is racist or not. Especially when we are dealing with an act that harms a minority, which by the very definition of the word minority would mean their vote against the Dutch tradition would be small compared to the rest of the country. There are some very real limitations of accusing someone of being "ethnocentric" when they are criticizing certain aspects of a culture. It wouldn't be good to dwell on ethnocentrism if you want to argue for the tradition.

 

[terribletwo]

maybe they could just call him Sooty Pete or Chimney Pete and just put a little soot on his face

 

[Supermanisdead]

I don't get your point... Does a black guy dressing up as Mr T need his "own spinoff parallel universe" because he is not as tall as the original? You can't portray a character perfectly, nobody can. You try to get as close to the character as possible and have fun pretending to be superman.

The point I'm making here, is that people dress up as the iconic character and not some "black version" of that character. So when you see a redheaded white dude and black haired black dude dressed as Superman, why is one the "black Superman" and the other is just "Superman" and not a "red-haired Superman?"

They are both dressed as Superman because they're wearing the costume. Race should never factor into costumes.

 

[And_Gignac]

As far as Zwarte Piet is concerned I feel like I can see both sides of the argument. I agree with the Europeans that it's not strictly "blackface" (as a minstrel show is), and that the intent is likely not to be racist (because he's simply a bad depiction of a dark-skinned Moor). However, what I think they miss is that, even if that is the case, the historical depiction of dark-skinned Moors is itself racist - it's a stereotyped caricature with no attempt to depict other humans accurately.

Yeah, I agree with this. You see this depiction even in countries like mine, where 0,3% or the population have a black african ancestry. The Dutch celebration cannot be judged from American standards, and sometimes I got this feeling that some Americans want the whole world to represent and go by their cultural standards.

But even then, there´s a historical and cultural connotation that is shared by most western countries when it comes to this exaggerated, comical depiction of black people, so there may be some re-thinking to do. I am personally doing it thanks to this thread.

 

[Minister of the Dog]

This isn't a good way of gauging whether something is racist or not. I think we can agree that there are indisputably racist acts, say barring blacks from sitting inside restaurants. Not too long ago this act was pretty common in the United States. If an outside European country looked at this practice in the U.S. and accused them of racism, I don't think an acceptable response would be: "this is widely accepted around here! If you think this is racist then its only because you refuse to see the world from anything outside your own lens!" I'm not trying to make a 1:1 comparison between the two events here. Just trying to show how popular sentiment in a country doesn't really do much to elucidate whether something is racist or not. Especially when we are dealing with an act that harms a minority, which by the very definition of the word minority would mean their vote against the Dutch tradition would be small compared to the rest of the country. There are some very real limitations of accusing someone of being "ethnocentric" when they are criticizing certain aspects of a culture. It wouldn't be good to dwell on ethnocentrism if you want to argue for the tradition.

If you read my posts, there's none where I take a stance on the tradition itself. If anyone is interested in my opinion, it's not an event I would participate in, and I understand the point people who view it as racist make. My only gripe is the projection of someone's own culture as the only true source of knowledge, hence calling others "ignorant" and "uneducated"; and I think I've made my point already, to which I have nothing to add.

 

[Piggus]

That's what I thought.
The Dutch don't do it to mock black people.

Then why do they do it?

 

[kamorra]

Yeah, I agree with this. You see this depiction even in countries like mine, where 0,3% or the population have a black african ancestry. The Dutch celebration cannot be judged from American standards, and sometimes I got this feeling that some Americans want the whole world to represent and go by their cultural standards.

But even then, there´s a historical and cultural connotation that is shared by most western countries when it comes to this exaggerated, comical depiction of black people, so there may be some re-thinking to do. I am personally doing it thanks to this thread.

Yeah, that's the better worded version of what I was trying to say in my last post.

 

[Filaipus]

Stop with the 'american get too offended about blackface' bullshit already. Tons of non-americans such as myself who are offended by this in this very thread.

Also..did you just use having black friends to justify shit like this?

Like I said, I condemn any real discrimination (such as this case), but I don't think that joking and stereotyping are real racial discrimination is many cases (when it is clearly a joke, but people get too ofended). What I said is that Americans are over-sensitive when it comes to the racial aspect, due to their culture. And I supported that with the fact that I live side to side with a big african community. I go to school witha 30% or more ratio of black kids. One of the biggest in Europe.

Since when have these european countries been such a racial utopia where you can claim that people are too sensitive about gross racial caricature imagery?

Not too sensitive with blackface in specific, talking about the whole racial problem. And where I'm from is not a racial utopia but it is way better than any American state.

 

[genjiZERO]

Then why do they do it?

Because that's how Moors have traditionally been depicted in European art for centuries, and the image was likely created in a vacuum when most people had very little contact with dark-skinned Africans*. It's just exaggerated, but there isn't any contempt or other specific negative feelings. Without some intentional negativity you can't really be mocking.

Now, again, even if we say it's not racist because it lacks intent to be so, it's still racist because people no longer live in that isolated society and can see that their depiction is wildly trite and cartoonish.


*Of course the image was also clearly based on xenophobic fears of Moors who are often the cliche villain or servant in many stories. But I think that's a side issue to Zwarte Piet specifically.

 

[PHOENIXZERO]

black people

i assume there's at least a few in the netherlands

Quite a few, use to know someone there who's family was from Surinam.

That said, I'm not entirely sure on the usage of black face with Zwarte Piet outside of bits and pieces but from the sounds of it, the situation seems quite different from how it was used in North America in minstrel shows and early cinema. Then again I think stuff like this needs context before flagging it racist or not. Should probably read up on it.

 

[Benutzer]

The point I'm making here, is that people dress up as the iconic character and not some "black version" of that character. So when you see a redheaded white dude and black haired black dude dressed as Superman, why is one the "black Superman" and the other is just "Superman" and not a "red-haired Superman?"

They are both dressed as Superman because they're wearing the costume. Race should never factor into costumes.

One is a black dude dressed as Superman and the other is a red-haired dude also dressed as Superman. Of course I would describe the red-haired dude as red-haired Superman, just like a Superman with a mustache. Are you trying to make this about "white=default"? It's not...

edit: Btw this feels offtopic. We are probably just splitting hairs right now.

 

[Necromanti]

Did you know that negus comes from naga and means king?

I'm getting sick of how white-washed history as we know it is. Thankfully, DC R1D3R is preaching the truth that most of us can't handle tbh.

Another interesting use of connotation and denotation, in my opinion, was this following #truthnugget:

i guess that's why they're called the aborigines? because they're hated? you see, just by definition, to abhor is to hate/envy and when the first white men found all these people, that's what they named them.

It makes sense when you think about it. Both words start with the same two letters. Coincidence? Not really.

I love learning about real history.

 

[coldvein]

im offended

sorry kim

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

*sigh* everything about this.."event" seems so scripted and fake. Just more "drama fodder" for their lame reality show.

Probably.

Look at reality shows like plays. It's a scene, it's engaging, and it has people talking about something.

 

[Aselith]

I don't have the right to form an opinion based on a thread title? Guess I jumped in my time machine and went back to Nazi Germany... ^_^

 

[Vermillion]

I'm not sure if it matters because I'm already branded as a racist person but the picture above showing the protesters made me think. It's the first time I see protesters against that holiday. I feel conflicted to be honest, especially because I've had to endure racism for my whole life myself.

I still think that our culture, history and context is very different and I don't like when other countries try to force their ideology on other countries. I still think that the majority of dutch people who celebrate this aren't racist. But if black people in the Netherlands are protesting it something has to be wrong. Maybe it really has to change.

Again: respect.

 

[Silky]

They already have.

but it obviously isn't racist breh

You would think an obviously friendly environment such as the image and other posters depict this 'traditional holiday' or whatever it is that the protesters would be joining them. what are thay, offended or something

 

[kamorra]

Again: respect.

Thanks, I actually feel bad about some of the things I said in this thread. I get defensive quick whenever I feel someone tries to force his point of view on me. I think it's ok when people are calling me out on it. I just think the insults and calling me and my country racist are a bit too much.

But yeah, while I still don't agree with everything I have to admit that there really seems to be a problem with this tradition which needs to be solved.