Tragicomedy
Member
The team is known as Los Cuervos (The Crows).
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2014 FIFA World Cup |OT8| Brazi1 - German7
- Thread starter Wes
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The team is known as Los Cuervos (The Crows).
I dont get the Messi hype, at all. Sure he may be a brilliant player for his club but in all the international appearances, I have only seen a few moments of brilliance in a few matches. But I've seen far more brilliant moves by others just in this WC ..
Maninthemirror
Banned
You do know club football is tougher for all players than international and you can only go from great to legendary due to the team around you. He has created 19 chances before today's match the most in this World Cup what more do you want ? Goals or chances for himself and others to score
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Tragicomedy
Member
Dude has four goals and an assist so far, all while every team focuses almost exclusively on shutting him down. In fact, that's the entire game plan against Argentina: double or triple cover Messi whenever he touches the ball.
If you aren't impressed with what he's accomplished this World Cup, then you have unrealistic standards that nobody can achieve.
I watched Maradona play growing up. I've seen complete games where Pele played. They both had games where they weren't the dominant man on the pitch or disappeared for large portions of the game. It's 11 on 11.
There is a solid argument that club performance is more important than international, and Messi was truly the star of the Barcelona that dominated European and Spanish football for like 4 years or so under Guardiola. He broke out as a young star and played exceptionally in very many cases, he was very difficult to handle. This is why he got the Ballon d'Or so many times, even if it belonged more to other players that were more clinical at the time. He was doing this so young compared to others, it was fantastic.
Most fans of him are willing to ignore his poor (on average, not always) international form simply because he does so well domestically. Even with his poor form for Argentina, he does have moments of brilliance and specifically with this World Cup has done well. It also helps that his playing style and nationality, as well as team, brought back instant memory of Maradona, which is a very great comparison to have.
I don't think he deserves as much hype as he gets, but he deserves a lot and should be regarded as one of the best players at this time at the very least.
Tougher, yes. More prestigious? No.
Again, it's difficult for casuals to appreciate his talent if he can only display his best under certain circumstances.
I dont know the tally of chances created and how thats measured for the rest of the players.
Dont think anyone genuinely thinks he has lived upto his "GOAT" title here.
I see.
Yup, that's exactly my opinion.
Imagine if Messi had agreed to play for Spain....it would be unfair.
That's unfair since not all players are blessed with a good national team. How many games do national teams play per tournaments? 10 or so? Seems unfair to gauge players on such games, especially since they play 40+ games with their clubs per year. Club form is much more indicative of their performance and many of the greatest players throughout the ages barely did anything with their national team.
That's unfair since not all players are blessed with a good national team. How many games do national teams play per tournaments? 10 or so? Seems unfair to gauge players on such games, especially since they play 40+ games with their clubs per year. Club form is much more indicative of their performance and many of the greatest players throughout the ages barely did anything with their national team.
Ganzlinger
Member
I think I'm gonna root for San Lorenzo in Libertadores. They have eliminated my team (Botafogo) so if they won, I can say at least that we were taken out by the best team.
WAR recon zero
Banned
VIggo has a great voice. Damn.
And Messi is already better than Diego. I wonder if people that call out GOAT saw Prime Real Ronaldo play. Dude was a fucking monster. The true GOAT.
And when Fake Ronaldo is fit, is better than Best Messi, IMHO. Shame this rarely happens, and consistency is one reason Messi>Fake Ronaldo
And Messi is already better than Diego. I wonder if people that call out GOAT saw Prime Real Ronaldo play. Dude was a fucking monster. The true GOAT.
And when Fake Ronaldo is fit, is better than Best Messi, IMHO. Shame this rarely happens, and consistency is one reason Messi>Fake Ronaldo
the goalpost is forever pushed back when talking about Messi.
Champions league is higher quality futbol than the World Cup. It's just the WC has higher prestige.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Del Bosque wouldn't put him on some excuse or another.
Who's more clinical than Messi? He's converted his chances at the best rate the last four years.
This article is for you
And before you say, "oh that's because he has Xavi and co. assisting."
The "he's had poor form" is only based upon the 2010 World Cup where he struggled playing as a CAM. Since then, he went on a tear in qualification and has performed well in this WC. He's surpassed Maradona's goal totals internationally in the same amount of games (in 91 appearances, Messi had 42 goals, Maradona had 34).
He won't surpass Maradona until he wins a WC, fairly or unfairly. Unfortunately, Argentina's running into a buzzsaw on Sunday.
Who's more clinical than Messi? He's converted his chances at the best rate the last four years.
This article is for you
And before you say, "oh that's because he has Xavi and co. assisting."
True but that's also indicative of Barca's playing style.
BloodMoney
Banned
Who's more clinical than Messi? He's converted his chances at the best rate the last four years.
This article is for you
And before you say, "oh that's because he has Xavi and co. assisting."
yo...that ether lol
WonkyPanda
Member
Ignoring the fact that he beat a 40-year record by 6 goals, the numbers and statistics that he puts up are just incredible: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/lionel-messi-is-impossible/
Consider today how much better teams are in terms of nutrition, training, medical attention, and strategical planning via computers. You have a 5'7" player who plays against some of the best defenders and MFs in the world, and not only does he excel, he CRUSHES everybody and everything. THAT is why Messi is in the discussion of GOAT. Is he? Too early to tell. But, to think that this kid hasn't had one of the most incredible futbol careers ever is a disgrace,
Are those his International stats or everything? If it's the latter then you are not following the discussion.
Ganzlinger
Member
Messiah
He was told to come.
He was told to come.
In reality, the "GOAT" argument is tiresome and is mostly an unsatisfying argument.
I don't think it really matters who the GOAT is. It's counterfactual if anything. Let's concern ourselves more with players that were dominant in their era, and Messi's surpassed his initial hype substantially in terms of production in the most competitive era of football when you consider the consolidation of talent within the top echelon teams across the world (6-10 teams).
Maradona: 34 goals in 91 appearances
Messi: 42 goals in 92 appearances
And in the damn article you refuse to open:
I don't think it really matters who the GOAT is. It's counterfactual if anything. Let's concern ourselves more with players that were dominant in their era, and Messi's surpassed his initial hype substantially in terms of production in the most competitive era of football when you consider the consolidation of talent within the top echelon teams across the world (6-10 teams).
Look, man. People that follow the sport put more stock in club football than international stats. Even ignoring that, Messi's outpaced Maradona when it comes to goals/games played for Argentina, if you want the rawest outcome.
Maradona: 34 goals in 91 appearances
Messi: 42 goals in 92 appearances
And in the damn article you refuse to open:
WonkyPanda
Member
It would be nice if you read the article. But, yes, it includes everything. In fact, there's a section dedicated to his WC performance gap.
Who's more clinical than Messi? He's converted his chances at the best rate the last four years.
This article is for you
And before you say, "oh that's because he has Xavi and co. assisting."
The "he's had poor form" is only based upon the 2010 World Cup where he struggled playing as a CAM. Since then, he went on a tear in qualification and has performed well in this WC. He's surpassed Maradona's goal totals internationally in the same amount of games (in 91 appearances, Messi had 42 goals, Maradona had 34).
He won't surpass Maradona until he wins a WC, fairly or unfairly. Unfortunately, Argentina's running into a buzzsaw on Sunday.
Mate, I am not saying he hasn't been fantastic this whole period between his start of stardom and now, I am just saying that at times, in certain years, others deserved the Ballon d'Or more than he did, is all. I also don't know if looking at stats of Maradona will really make the comparison accurate, I guess. Statistically I suppose that Messi may be better, but really, I don't see the same sort of flair, just a similar kind. I don't have enough experience with Maradona to say who is better, as I wasn't alive during the man's playing career.
But for my Ballon d'Or comment, my personal opinion for a winner besides Messi is best with the single example of Iniesta in 2010, but that is just my opinion. I also think that defensive players should get a lot more credit with this award than they do.
You stated "others were more clinical," which is objectively false. Somehow this false 9 is the most efficient finisher even with his extremely high usage rate.
Fact of the matter is that this sport has and always will put a premium on the guys that can put the ball in the net. Sure, we respect Beckenbauer and such but this is a sport about results - and a goal is the clearest result.
And I'll say it again, talking about "GOAT" is tiresome. It's an endless debate that's pointless but it is also counterfactual to state that Messi has been in poor form internationally. That was certainly true in the 2010 WC but that team had more than one problem.
The Maradona "flair" thing has just always bothered me as a general football fan because a lot of that, I feel, comes down to eras. Teams were much more focused on man marking in that era, hence the just comical lack of discipline you see in that one play.
But, then again, Messi pretty much had the exact same run when he was like 19.
Or hell, let's even talk about Ronaldinho. There's a guy that had "flair," but he's also a guy that made a living on wasting chances. Don't see how that's a good thing.
speculawyer
Member
Germany has so much assumption on them now. Argentina . . . squeaked by Netherlands on PKs.
Perhaps Germany may choke like Brazil did.
I dunno. Soccer is so random. On any given day, anyone can win unless they are massively different teams. And I don't think these two are.
Perhaps Germany may choke like Brazil did.
I dunno. Soccer is so random. On any given day, anyone can win unless they are massively different teams. And I don't think these two are.
Portugeezer
Member
It is just as good backwards, but for other reasons.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
No doubt Germany has the chemistry advantage, and if Hummels is fit, it'll be difficult for Argentina.
Higuain and Levezzi needs to be more of a threat so they won't just keep three guys on Messi all the time.
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
I see that FiveThirtyEight article posted a lot around here, and while all of it is fairly scientific, do keep in mind that the article itself makes a ton of qualifications about what kind of system Barcelona runs and what kind of player Messi really is.
Not that it matters. Messi is the GOAT, and all that's really missing from him is just a Zizou-esque performance in the World Cup.
Actually, if you look back on World Cup history, true "quality" usually prevail in the end.
2010: Spain
2006: Italy
2002: Brazil
1998: France
1994: Brazil
1990: West Germany
That's 1 out of 6 tournaments (20 years) where the proverbial "best" team didn't end up winning (94 Italy was better than 94 Brazil)
Not that it matters. Messi is the GOAT, and all that's really missing from him is just a Zizou-esque performance in the World Cup.
Actually, if you look back on World Cup history, true "quality" usually prevail in the end.
2010: Spain
2006: Italy
2002: Brazil
1998: France
1994: Brazil
1990: West Germany
That's 1 out of 6 tournaments (20 years) where the proverbial "best" team didn't end up winning (94 Italy was better than 94 Brazil)
I suppose using clinical was poor wording on my part, especially as a writer. I just mean that I thought other players were perhaps more important to team success or played better than he did, specifically in 2010, which is admittedly a poor year for him.
As for international poor form, it is fair to say he was struggling in 2010, and that he did well in qualifying and has improved dramatically. However, he was in poor form for a while, like 2010-2012 or so in my opinion, which you can take with a grain of salt as I don't necessarily watch him play all that often internationally as I don't follow Argentina as I do the US or Germany as a dual-citizen.
I agree the GOAT is a stupid argument, and that the flair bit regarding both those examples is not wrong. Maradona played in a completely different era of football, and found a lot of success. However, he was a solid frontrunner that led to teachings possible to make a player like Messi, as he did push the game and dribbling forward. The same goes for Ronaldinho, though your criticism of him feels a bit unfair. I consider him one of many all-time greats, with he amazing movement and beautiful play, as well as the great goals he has scored. All these players may receive more credit than deserved as great players, but they were still quite good and I wouldn't rank Messi as better, just equal or among them. We will never know who the best player was, the playing styles are all so different.
Also, while you aren't wrong about your statements regarding the premium on clear results helping rank the best players, that brings up one of my most frustrating arguments about sports in general, which is the reliance only on statistics and the like. It is important, sure, and can form a solid base for how players are, but they favor offensive players too much. In the German team, I wouldn't say Müller is better than Lahm, they are both fantastic and I have a hard time separating them based on their skill and importance to the team. Same goes for Gerd and Beckenbauer to an extent. Some players are great in ways that statistics can't explain, and clear-cut results aren't the most effective way to rank players. Defenders are just as, if not more important than any striker or forward player, same going for midfielders and goalkeepers. It isn't fair to call attacking players the best all the time when there are defenders that play so well.
WonkyPanda
Member
That 1990 match was horse shit!
TeddyShardik
Banned
Seems like I didn't miss much by falling asleep. Grats to Argentina. Enjoy it until Sunday. 
Edit: Lol, just saw a kid, no older than 12 maybe, cry and say "We waited 24 years for this!!!".
Edit: Lol, just saw a kid, no older than 12 maybe, cry and say "We waited 24 years for this!!!".
Germany just has that coveted mix of veteran savvy with Lahm and Schweini and young talent. Ever since they burst out in the 2010 WC, people have been waiting for this particular group to put it all together either in Euro 2012 or now, and they seem pretty well-positioned.
I don't put a ton of stock in the group stage games because Scweini and Khedeira were not fit. Being able to move Lahm back to the outside has been a huge help in providing width and tracking opposing wingers.
I do wonder if Low will overthink this and push Lahm back to the midfield to face-up Messi. Think that's dangerous especially with how much space that obviously gives either Higuain or Lavezzi. Granted Higuain has been out of form, but Lavezzi was great in the first half today hugging the touch lines.
Matchup-wise, unless Di Maria and Aguero both get magically 100% fit, I just think Germany outclasses them in the midfield and the last third of the field.
I don't put a ton of stock in the group stage games because Scweini and Khedeira were not fit. Being able to move Lahm back to the outside has been a huge help in providing width and tracking opposing wingers.
I do wonder if Low will overthink this and push Lahm back to the midfield to face-up Messi. Think that's dangerous especially with how much space that obviously gives either Higuain or Lavezzi. Granted Higuain has been out of form, but Lavezzi was great in the first half today hugging the touch lines.
Matchup-wise, unless Di Maria and Aguero both get magically 100% fit, I just think Germany outclasses them in the midfield and the last third of the field.
plantedunicorn
Member
While it's true Higuain is not at his best I feel he played pretty well against Netherlands. He looked very lively this match and more involved in the offense compared to previous matches. The Dutch marking Messi with two or three men certainly played a part in that.
He's still a better option than Aguero who has done fuck all this world cup. I was actually surprised he was subbed out.
Here's the thing, Messi has been extremely productive - largely marching his Barca form - since the 2010 WC. The evidence is in the previous posts. South Africa was four years ago. Rooney was a world class striker then! It was a different world.
I just can't even comprehend putting Ronaldinho and Messi on equal footing though. He was fun to watch but he flamed out in spectacular fashion way too early to even be considered the best Brazilian of his era (post-Ronaldo). Poor Kaka gets no love.
Look, it may not be fair that defenders get shortchanged but that's just the way the sport is. Beckenbauer will always be a legend though.
Aguero's been hurt. Don't really think we can say too much about his form.
I think it was Acorn and I that we're talking about this but Higuain just doesn't look comfortable playing wide like that. He's fine and all, he's just not able to pull the trigger like he usually is when he's actually playing CF.
I imagine that Löw learned his lesson after his stupid tinkering against fucking Italy in the SEMI-FINALS of Euro 2012. If he makes the mistake of messing with the formation and lineup that has proven so well and we lose, he will certainly have nothing to say in defense of himself. I don't think he'd be that stupid though.
Also, your other post, Kaka is one of my top players for post-Ronaldo, no doubt. He gets no credit and was a brilliant player. Deserves a lot more than he gets I think, with all things considered.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
2006 France > Italy cuz Zizou
Are we still posting Pallas Cat pics?
We need a Pallas Cat thread!
WonkyPanda
Member
Time to revisit this little bastard: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsjue72VNqg&feature=youtu.be
I hope you lose your capri-sun
I hope you lose your capri-sun
Despite my dislike for all things Serie A, Kaka is probably my favorite player of the 2000s. Note that I'm not suggesting in any way that he's the best. I just really enjoyed watching him play. Just a smart, straight forward player.
jamesinclair
Banned
Please tell me that the picture of Messi holding the no fue penal sign is real
Hasphat'sAnts
Member
Buffon/Cannavaro/Zambrotta with Gattuso covering for them, and they should've had Nesta there as well.
Best defensive side since 98 France, nothing was getting past those dudes. They were better than France, fair and square.
Haha that game had some absolutely shambolic defending. You'd think going into that match that none of the German players or coaches were aware of who Balotelli was or watched Italy play once.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
Whatever reason they were so confident better have been a damn good one. The final was a complete demolition of Italy. Disgusting to get so far, we should have another international trophy. Ugh. Fucking Löw. I hope this final game goes well or I am going to fly over there and smack him pretty damn hard.
Argentina had more shots and more shots on target, Netherlands won possession by just 6%. Not really seeing who outclassed who here. It was very tight, with Argentina having those 2 clear chances at the end.
To me Argentina was superior in the first half, second half Netherlands. 1 extra time Netherlands, and then Argentina being better in the 2nd one.
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