Support NeoGAF

[GladiatoR]

I'm not Gladiator, and Falcon taking his place makes sense to me in general, but Cap "losing the super soldier serum" does seem kinda nonsensical. It's not the kind of thing that just stays swimming around in your body, generally. You take a drug or a hormone or something and it affects a change, either temporary or permanent, but that's it. Seems weird.

We are, of course, talking comic book super science where you can't bring complete scientific accuracy, but sometimes things cross the line where we are able to suspend that disbelief. The line's in a different place for everyone.

That is exactly what I meant.

 

[Jezan]

The last time I heard about the Cap in a comic was

Spoiler

the controversial death of Steve Rodgers.

Spoiler

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b4/Capdeath.PNG

Spoiler

You telling me that his death didn't stick?

It was worse:

Spoiler

It was revealed that there was a Skrull invasion a long time ago and since they are shapeshifters, they were posing as many heroes, while the original heroes (including Steve) were lost in a space ship. When the story-arc was solved the Skrulls were killed and the original heroes returned, so it means that most achievements done by Captain America were not actually his,but some random Skrull

 

[deadlast]

Does he still need the wings?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

It was worse:

Spoiler

It was revealed that there was a Skrull invasion a long time ago and since they are shapeshifters, they were posing as many heroes, while the original heroes (including Steve) were lost in a space ship. When the story-arc was solved the Skrulls were killed and the original heroes returned, so it means that most achievements done by Captain America were not actually his,but some random Skrull

That isn't what happened. I mean, that did happen to some people, but not Cap.

Spoiler

Captain America: Reborn #1 (Aug. 2009) reveals that Rogers did not die, and that the gun Sharon Carter had been hypnotized to use had actually caused Rogers to phase in and out of space and time, appearing at events in his lifetime and fighting battles. The Skull returns Rogers to the present, where he takes control of Rogers' mind and body. Rogers eventually regains control, and with help from his allies, defeats the Skull in the fourth and final issues of this miniseries. In the subsequent one-shot comic Captain America: Who Will Wield the Shield?, Rogers formally grants Bucky his Captain America shield and asks his former sidekick to continue as Captain America. The American President grants Rogers a full pardon for his anti-registration actions.

 

[Currygan]

CHEESE AND CRACKERS!







wat

let's konk that kook?

I find Glaswegian dialect to be more understandable

 

[DoktorEvil]

That isn't what happened. I mean, that did happen to some people, but not Cap.

Spoiler

Captain America: Reborn #1 (Aug. 2009) reveals that Rogers did not die, and that the gun Sharon Carter had been hypnotized to use had actually caused Rogers to phase in and out of space and time, appearing at events in his lifetime and fighting battles. The Skull returns Rogers to the present, where he takes control of Rogers' mind and body. Rogers eventually regains control, and with help from his allies, defeats the Skull in the fourth and final issues of this miniseries. In the subsequent one-shot comic Captain America: Who Will Wield the Shield?, Rogers formally grants Bucky his Captain America shield and asks his former sidekick to continue as Captain America. The American President grants Rogers a full pardon for his anti-registration actions.

Gotta love revisionist plot changes.

I'm biased though. I think Captain America is a blah hero relic from WW2.

 

[Schweinehund]

Out of curiosity, are there any famous Asian superheroes?

Off the top of my head the only American one I can think of is Ryan Choi (The Atom) from DC. Katana has been around for awhile. Karate Kid might be, the list I'm looking at says he is but I don't know much about Legion of Super Heroes.

On the villain side Cheshire is pretty awesome and has one of my favorite designs.

 

[Deified Data]

These kind of things would be more interesting if they ever stuck. Rogers will get it back eventually.

This. I feel bad for anyone who gets a good feel for female Thor or Falcon Cap, because it's all a publicity stunt that'll last for a short run before the originals come back. I recognize that comics continuities need to be shaken up every once in a while to keep things fresh, but I feel there's probably a better way of doing it than gender/race swapping currently existing characters. At least Captain America is a title that can be bestowed, so in this case it works. No so much with Thor no longer being allowed to use his own name.

 

[Synless]

Yes, because white super hero are so rare.

I think it's sad they just can't make a relevant new comic with minority heroes in it instead of taking existing ones and hoping it sticks so they don't lose sales. It's less about white super heroes and more about them being creatively shallow.

 

[mreddie]

Shit, what ever happened to the Runaways anyway? Last I read of them was like, Civil war or Whedon's "time travel back to victorian england" crap.

After their 4th series ended on a cliffhangers, they've been cameoing in other comics, Nico and Chase were in Avengers Arena and are in Avengers Undercover, Victor is in Avengers A.I. and Karolina, Molly and Klara are still cameoing.

I really wish the New MS Marvel was in there. I'm really digging a-dork-able Muslim, teenage shape-shifting MS. Marvel.

Still too early.

 

[ReAxion]

I still don't see the idea of a character swap as "creatively shallow". We start getting stories of how a totally different person handles taking on someone else's identity. That's at least more interesting than another month of Cap comics exactly as they have been for years.

They're not creatively shallow at all. They know the market. Why launch another DoA book with an unknown property when you can test them on a known property people are proven to spend money on and spin the character out into their own series in a year or two?

 

[remnant]

Sure, the minority thing might be a part of it -- it certainly gets the internet rumbling -- but different characters taking on the role of a given hero has been going on since forever. Danny Rand took on the Daredevil identity for awhile. Bucky was Cap for awhile. Dick Grayson was Batman for awhile. Going back further, Azrael was Batman. Rhodey was Iron Man.

It even happens with villains. Loki was a woman for awhile. Doctor Octopus' mantle was taken over by a women for awhile.

We got good stories out of most of these changes, especially Dick as Batman. Creatively, it made the books have a very different flavor. I guess I don't see how that's a bad thing.

How often do we get good storis from these switches though? Most of them end up as completely forgettable. Azrael is a joke now. Danny Rand's run as DD isn't close to being considered among the best of DD library. Bucky and Dick as replacements both accomplished nothing.

These swaps have earned their reputations as being nothing but shameless publicity stunts.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

How often do we get good storis from these switches though? Most of them end up as completely forgettable. Azrael is a joke now. Danny Rand's run as DD isn't close to being considered among the best of DD library. Bucky and Dick as replacements both accomplished nothing.

These swaps have earned their reputations as being nothing but shameless publicity stunts.

It earned smaller characters getting more attention and character depth because of their position of being the main character of a series. Bucky is about to get his own series, that probably would have never happened if Brubaker didn't make him such a prominent character in the Cap book.

 

[remnant]

It earned smaller characters getting more attention and character depth because of their position of being the main character of a series. Bucky is about to get his own series, that probably would have never happened if Brubaker didn't make him such a prominent character in the Cap book.

I would argue they did the exact opposite. Bucky best stuff wasn't in Cap, it was in his own book. Same with iron Fist. He was still C-list after his DD swap it was over. If anything it wasBrubaker and Fraction's work on IF that gained him popularity. Damian got really popular when Dick was batman, but it didn't reflect into making Dick a bigger seller when it was over.

If you want to get a C-list character more popular, put them on a book, attach a good creative team onto it and don't cancel it. Works for Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel, Worked for all of Marvel Cosmic...

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Anyone who says Bucky as Cap did nothing can go jump off the Baxter Building.

Bucky taking on the shield, after the long Brubaker run where he went through SO much development was such a huge turning point for the character. It had years of build up and felt so goddamn RIGHT when he put on the uniform. Seeing Bucky struggle with feeling that he will never live up to Steve's legacy, never be the truly honourable man that Steve was, those were the moments that the entire run was basically created for and it was wonderful to see. Having him take Cap's place on The New Avengers in Bendis' run was super cool too.

Now Bucky is a major player in the Marvel universe, the Original Sin event has him playing a major role, and now he's getting his own ongoing series. Marvel apparently felt confident enough in bringing his story to the big screen for Captain America 2, which I always thought was surprising considering it was a relatively new addition to a long running series.

None of this would be happening right now without Brubaker's brilliant addition of The Winter Soldier to the modern Marvel era and his time as Cap really cemented his presence as a major character.

I get it, on surface level these things look like stupid publicity stunts, random changes to "shake things up" and attract new readers. And in some ways they are. But there is far more depth to events like this that people give Marvel and their writers credit for.

There have been some shitty examples over the years but I will gladly give anything like this a chance in hope of seeing the next Bucky Cap or Incredible Hercules.

 

[Palette Swap]

How often do we get good storis from these switches though? Most of them end up as completely forgettable. Azrael is a joke now. Danny Rand's run as DD isn't close to being considered among the best of DD library. Bucky and Dick as replacements both accomplished nothing.

These swaps have earned their reputations as being nothing but shameless publicity stunts.

Except Morrison's Batman and Robin was great and the character dynamics between Dick and Damian were great and totally paid off when Bruce got back.

The same can be said about Brubaker's Bucky Cap. It was a great story and having him as Cap was central to the story itself.

You're also ignoring counter-examples like 3 non-Hal Green Lanterns who are still relevant, as well as Wally West.

If your issue is that these changes didn't stick, I'm not sure you're into the right hobby as everything eventually changes. In the long run, given the number of retcons and reboots, I think stuff like status quo matters very little. What's important is how good the stories themselves are.

 

[Dysun]

Much like Thorita, I don't mind Falcon being Cap for the year or two they give it. But that suit looks like shit

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Much like Thorita, I don't mind Falcon being Cap for the year or two they give it. But that suit looks like shit

It does, Bucky's Cap suit was AMAZING in comparison.

 

[Hot Coldman]

That's pretty cool. Hell, I'd love if they keep it this way for good and just keep Steve as "Steve" when he inevitably gets the super powers back.

 

[ReAxion]

If you want to get a C-list character more popular, put them on a book, attach a good creative team onto it and don't cancel it. Works for Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel, Worked for all of Marvel Cosmic...

People want a Hawk-Kate book because of Hawkeye now. They didn't just launch her into her own series.

Ms. Marvel route is almost the exact same approach they are taking with this, too.

They know the market.

 

[Vinci]

Well, Marvel has to try to change things up a bit. Even if it doesn't stick, all these changes are still going to introduce new characters or adjust the exposure to old ones. And if they get a decent story out of it, why not?

We would not be getting a big-budget Guardians of the Galaxy film if they didn't do strange shit sometimes. Prototype in the comics, where it's inexpensive and flexible, and use what works in films. Seems like a good strategy that DC should pay attention to.

And, FWIW, what DC has done to Cassandra Cain is just horribly stupid. Loved that character.

 

[remnant]

Except Morrison's Batman and Robin was great and the character dynamics between Dick and Damian were great and totally paid off when Bruce got back.

The same can be said about Brubaker's Bucky Cap. It was a great story and having him as Cap was central to the story itself.

You're also ignoring counter-examples like 3 non-Hal Green Lanterns who are still relevant, as well as Wally West.

If your issue is that these changes didn't stick, I'm not sure you're into the right hobby as everything eventually changes. In the long run, given the number of retcons and reboots, I think stuff like status quo matters very little. What's important is how good the stories themselves are.

How many swaps give us runs like Morrison? I'm not saying it's impossible for a swap to work. I'm just saying most of the time they don't and the argument for why we do them so often(to give new characters limelight) is stupid. More often than not the original comes back and replaces the swapped character, and they are no more popular than they were before.

Most of the best stories a character gets is when they are their own character. Not moonlighting as someone else.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Kind of amusing with the white Batgirl twitter profile picture

 

[Palette Swap]

How many swaps give us runs like Morrison? I'm not saying it's impossible for a swap to work. I'm just saying most of the time they don't and the argument for why we do them so often(to give new characters limelight) is stupid. More often than not the original comes back and replaces the swapped character, and they are no more popular than they were before.

Most of the best stories a character gets is when they are their own character. Not moonlighting as someone else.

I'm just saying swaps aren't inherently good or bad, they're just one editorial gimmick among many available. And at the end of the day, the thing that matters most is execution, which is all up to the writer. There's a reason the most terrible swaps we can think of are from the nineties.

 

[WanderingWind]

Kind of amusing with the white Batgirl twitter profile picture

Hahahahaa....true. Wonder if she's aware of how that comes across.

 

[Diatribe1974]

I despise efforts to make things racially diverse just to make them diverse. To me, if the story naturally goes there, then so be it. Otherwise? Its such a short term attention getter that it potentially falls into not the "What the f#ck were they thinking???" category that is either quickly retconned or outright forgotten asap.

 

[Palette Swap]

I despise efforts to make things racially diverse just to make them diverse. To me, if the story naturally goes there, then so be it. Otherwise? Its such a short term attention getter that it potentially falls into not the "What the f#ck were they thinking???" category that is either quickly retconned or outright forgotten asap.

Do you have examples of both cases in comics? Which category does this one fall in and why?

I'm asking because it's a nice blanket statement but I can't spontaneously link it to actual examples.

 

[Green Wiggly]

Haha, poor Deathlok

 

[Diatribe1974]

Do you have examples of both cases in comics? Which category does this one fall in and why?

I'm asking because it's a nice blanket statement but I can't spontaneously link it to actual examples.

I was generally referring to the George R R Martin style of story development in such that if the story goes a natural direction, then so be it. If its something that just makes sense, then no matter what you and I might like it to be, then its what's to be.

I'm fine with fresh blood being introduced into a comic line, as we've gotten some cool stories over the years, but doing something just so they can say "Look at this!!!!" that is nothing more than a blip of a talking point that is quickly forgotten in a year or two and things are back to how they were because they had no real intention of anything long term, to me, is just stupid and foolish and is potentially an insult to the fanbase.

 

[Mesoian]

Kind of amusing with the white Batgirl twitter profile picture

No, it's fitting since it's the new Batgirl outfit which is decidedly and finally not oversexualized.

That was last week's, "We think this is awesome and a good step forward for women, but there's no way we're buying a batgirl book" moment.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

I think it's sad they just can't make a relevant new comic with minority heroes in it instead of taking existing ones and hoping it sticks so they don't lose sales. It's less about white super heroes and more about them being creatively shallow.

They really have been doing that, but people aren't talking about those. Using a known mantle may be cheap, but it is effective. This thing may not last for longer than a year, but when it's over Falcon's stock will have gone up and odds are he'll get his own book.

People are crying foul over all of this but no one's bitching about how using time travel in almost every book is creatively bankrupt. Mostly because they don't read these books and don't really care about what's actually happening in them. Marvel has a decent set of writers at the moment and have been doing great stories with some of these admittedly gimmicky sounding pitches. But it's really easy to look at something like this and go "this is why I don't read comics".

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I would argue they did the exact opposite. Bucky best stuff wasn't in Cap, it was in his own book. Same with iron Fist. He was still C-list after his DD swap it was over. If anything it wasBrubaker and Fraction's work on IF that gained him popularity. Damian got really popular when Dick was batman, but it didn't reflect into making Dick a bigger seller when it was over.

If you want to get a C-list character more popular, put them on a book, attach a good creative team onto it and don't cancel it. Works for Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel, Worked for all of Marvel Cosmic...

If Bucky wasn't Cap no one would have cared about him enough to give him his own series to be his best stuff. Iron Fist wasn't what I would call C-List after his role in DD got him his own series that was lauded as some of the best comics going at the time it came out. It was probably the most popular Danny Rand has ever been. It was probably the only time in his characters history where he actually broke out from being a C-List character. Dick just got an ongoing where he's a secret agent and expanding his character even further. All of these characters are noticeable and deeper characters in their respected universes now.

I don't know why you're using Hawkeye and Ms. Marvel as examples of how putting new characters into legacy roles doesn't help their popularity. Just as many people read Hawkeye for Kate Bishop Hawkeye as they do for Clint, and Carol Danvers has never been more popular then after she took over the role of Captain Marvel.

Carol Danvers is probably one of the biggest examples of how putting a lesser known character into a bigger role helps popularity. There are definitely more people talking and wanting more Carol Danvers now that she is Captain Marvel.

You're looking at it all wrong. Putting these characters into these roles is like making them the opening act to the biggest and most popular bands in the country. It gives exposure to lesser known characters people usually don't bother with and can be a springboard to flesh the character out and boost interest and popularity.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

If you want to get a C-list character more popular, put them on a book, attach a good creative team onto it and don't cancel it. Works for Hawkeye, Ms. Marvel, Worked for all of Marvel Cosmic...

Marvel Cosmic was critically acclaimed but it wasn't a stellar seller if I recall correctly. Writing was great, but they certainly didn't use their top tier artists on it either. It's great they're going ahead with the Guardians movie however and I applaud any of the more risky moves.

 

[Platy]

Body painted suit, bikini armor AND boob plate ???

Holy female armor bingo =O



Also Iron Man is totaly Black Kamen Rider's Shadow Moon

[edit] and a cyber black dude .... I will never understand that cliche[/edit]

 

[Pathos]

Sometimes you just drop things.

What in the fuck

 

[ReiGun]

I think it's sad they just can't make a relevant new comic with minority heroes in it instead of taking existing ones and hoping it sticks so they don't lose sales.It's less about white super heroes and more about them being creatively shallow.

DC literally just had to cancel a book that was exactly this due to low sales.

I'm all about taking DC and Marvel to task for not doing enough for minority and women characters, but money talks, and sometimes it's not about not trying or not having creativity. Sometimes fans simply don't show up because they'd rather read the newest Batman or, heh, Captain America.

 

[Sai-kun]

Cant be having another white person superhero. Have to be minority or female these days

lmao this post sounds so fucking bitter

i LOVE it

 

[DonasaurusRex]

what happened to bucky?

want's to be more of a winter soldier type operative ultimately , post Fear Itself...it was like the MGS4 ending all over again...

 

[remnant]

If Bucky wasn't Cap no one would have cared about him enough to give him his own series to be his best stuff.

That's crazy. Bucky best selling and most memorable stuff is when he is still the Winter Soldier.

How many praise his run as Cap? His time travel story with the invaders? His role in Secret Invasion...and then woops steve is back, "We "kill" Bucky and bring him back just to do the cool stuff he was doing before he became Cap for a week.

Iron Fist wasn't what I would call C-List after his role in DD got him his own series that was lauded as some of the best comics going at the time it came out.

We got immortal Iron FIst because Danny run as DD wasn't selling. Not becuase he was now incredibly popular.

It was probably the most popular Danny Rand has ever been. It was probably the only time in his characters history where he actually broke out from being a C-List character. Dick just got an ongoing where he's a secret agent and expanding his character even further.

Yeah it was the best IF story in a while, maybe ever. And it had nothing to do with Daredevil. It could have easily happened without it. Good stories sell characters. Not stunts.

I don't know why you're using Hawkeye and Ms. Marvel as examples of how putting new characters into legacy roles doesn't help their popularity. Just as many people read Hawkeye for Kate Bishop Hawkeye as they do for Clint, and Carol Danvers has never been more popular then after she took over the role of Captain Marvel.

Kate got over as her own character in young avengers, and she never replaced Hawkeye.

Carol Danvers is probably one of the biggest examples of how putting a lesser known character into a bigger role helps popularity. There are definitely more people talking and wanting more Carol Danvers now that she is Captain Marvel.

Let not blow smoke up under Captain Marvel ass here. He hasn't been relevant for years. He has been dead, and Carol got over because Marvel decided to refresh her after House of M. A refresh that had nothing to do with Kree Captain marvel at all. Her popularity has grown because Marvel has used her more prominently, and written very well.

I mean no offense but if Marvel is an example of swapping working, then it only took Carol...2 decades for it to stick. She is kind of an old character.

You're looking at it all wrong. Putting these characters into these roles is like making them the opening act to the biggest and most popular bands in the country. It gives exposure to lesser known characters people usually don't bother with and can be a springboard to flesh the character out and boost interest and popularity.

In theory it works like that. In most cases it does nothing but creates weird plotholes and history that will just be retconned in the future. Marvel and DC know how to launch new characters, or refresh old characters and make them relevant again. We are seeing it right now with stuff like Guardians or the Aquaman stuff. You don't need gimmicks to make characters popular.

 

[MartyStu]

You don't need gimmicks to make characters popular.

Of course not. But it is easier to start from something than nothing--even if you have to bend yourself over backward to do it.

And as for Carol, Marvel pushed her in us. Hard. And her popularity and sales are only middling.

After both Dick Batman and Otto Spider-Man, I have grown a lot more accepting of these stunts. Even if the premise itself may be bad, execution sometimes justifies it.

Other times you get Azreal.

 

[Palette Swap]

I was generally referring to the George R R Martin style of story development in such that if the story goes a natural direction, then so be it. If its something that just makes sense, then no matter what you and I might like it to be, then its what's to be.

I'm fine with fresh blood being introduced into a comic line, as we've gotten some cool stories over the years, but doing something just so they can say "Look at this!!!!" that is nothing more than a blip of a talking point that is quickly forgotten in a year or two and things are back to how they were because they had no real intention of anything long term, to me, is just stupid and foolish and is potentially an insult to the fanbase.

My contention is that "forced" is a pretty artificial notion when it comes to editorial choices in mainstream comics. Pretty much every decision is made by committee and goes for a mix of marketable but interesting premise.
Again, I don't think that's bad per se, all that matters in the end is the execution and how well it turns out.
From the outside, it seems impossible to me to determine how naturally the idea came to the editors/writers, and I don't think the creative process that yielded a particular storyline or character matters much. What does matter is when you read the book, how well it actually works, how well the writer sells it and makes you suspend your disbelief.

For example, one could easily argue the choice to have a teenage Muslim Ms. Marvel was totally artificial. Yet, when you read the actual book, it's absolutely great: there's that classic Spider-Man feel to it, where she juggles between school, family and her super heroic duties. The book works at a basic super hero level. But it does more, as it describes what being a Muslim teenage girl in 2014 in Jersey City can be like. It's obviously not a social documentary and doesn't claim to be the most accurate thing ever but at the end of the day, the writer has managed to convey what such a girl's life might be like, it feels less foreign to me. At the same time, there's probably a Muslim teen and/or a teenage girl somewhere who feels someone actually gets what their life can be like. These aren't huge steps but:
a) every little bit helps inclusion.
b) that was ultimately a great and original read.
c) more people might read comics and help the medium stay afloat.

All that derives from a very artificial choice at one point but the creative team totally sells it. And it's really all that matters. More gender, racial, religious or sexual orientation diversity isn't worse or better than time travel or expanded origin stories.

Also, being an outsider, feeling different or rejected is very much a part of these super hero stories DNA.

want's to be more of a winter soldier type operative ultimately , post Fear Itself...it was like the MGS4 ending all over again...

Except Bru's Winter Soldier series was pretty good and given what's going on in Original Sin, he has probably some very badass stuff in store for the future.

 

[kame-sennin]

DC literally just had to cancel a book that was exactly this due to low sales.

I'm all about taking DC and Marvel to task for not doing enough for minority and women characters, but money talks, and sometimes it's not about not trying or not having creativity. Sometimes fans simply don't show up because they'd rather read the newest Batman or, heh, Captain America.

Or, they don't have the talent to create popular characters. There's a reason Marvel/DC mascots are 50+ years old.

 

[KidGalactus]

Better representation on the creative end would eradicate the market for such stunts, I think.

I find it somewhat insulting (on several levels) that a dumb stunt like this is news and that the newsiness of it also means it will be relatively short lived.

 

[MartyStu]

Better representation on the creative end would eradicate the market for such stunts, I think.

I find it somewhat insulting (on several levels) that a dumb stunt like this is news and that the newsiness of it also means it will be relatively short lived.

Nope. Better audience response to new creative efforts would lessen the frequency of these. And some crossovers.

 

[Palette Swap]

I'm totally double-posting and reposting an old Bendis interview but it's the closest thing I have to Marvel's writers/editors actual insight on these things.

The most cosmetic change we made, obviously, is a couple of years ago when we made the determination that, if Spider-Man were created today, there's a very large percentage chance that, based on where he's living and who he is, that he would be a person of color. So we made the choice to send Peter Parker off with a heroic death and have a new young man take the mantle in the form of Miles Morales, who’s half Hispanic and half African-American. That gave a multicultural voice to Spider-Man that was always there, but never fully championed in the books themselves.
[...]
When you become the writer of Spider-Man, all of a sudden, every day, every week, every month, someone of color — all different races — comes up to you and tells you, "Spider-Man was my favorite and this is why," and then I hear a version of this story: "My friends, when I was a kid, wouldn't let me be Superman, wouldn't let me be Batman, because of my skin color. But I could always be Spider-Man, and Spider-Man became my favorite. As a little kid, I didn't even understand why he was my favorite, but it was because anybody could be Spider-Man under that costume, because it was head-to-toe."

Marvel’s comics output has suddenly become very inclusive of nonwhite, non-male characters in the past five or six years. Was there a conscious effort to make that happen? Some big meeting where the editors said it was time to pay attention to inclusivity?

There was no big meeting. It's a few things. I know I sound like I'm a hundred years old when I say this, but with the growth of the online comics community came more awareness of the world and who's really reading these books. And y'know what? Sure, there are people who look like Captain America who read comics, but there are very few people in the world who look like Captain America. I go to conventions, and you meet hundreds of people over the course of the day, and no two of them look alike. You see women and people of color who love comics, and there's nothing representing them in a way that isn't sexualized or something.

Now, you can't make these decisions [to be more inclusive] consciously, because then you're just writing in reaction to things, and that doesn't work out, dramatically. But subconsciously, if you look at the world around you and see your readers, you go, I wanna write something that I know is true. So you start writing women better and you write people outside of your experience better, because you look at pages of other people's comics and you don't recognize it as the world around you.

You attempt to rectify that — sometimes subtly, sometimes boldly — and if enough people are doing that, there's a sea change. And then you go to the publisher and say, "Miles is gonna be half Hispanic and half African-American," and they go, "Oh, good, we should publish more of that." And it's not just me: It's [fellow Marvel writers] Matt Fraction and Kelly Sue DeConnick and Ed Brubaker and others who fight the good fight and put characters out there that don't represent everyone, but all of them put together represent more of the world that we live in. And the response you get back is something else, boy oh boy.

And yeah, Age of Ultron was terrible, Battle of the Atom sucked, Bendis writes everyone like Spiderman and he ruined Sony's E3 conference, but this is some interesting insight, he has a lot of clout at Marvel and he writes/has written some great books.

 

[ReAxion]

Nope. Better audience response to new creative efforts would lessen the frequency of these. And some crossovers.

For real. If you're saying you want them publish a "new creative effort" totally untested...

 

[KidGalactus]

Nope. Better audience response to new creative efforts would lessen the frequency of these. And some crossovers.

While i agree, and enthusiastically, I see them as separate symptoms of the same problem.

There is a stranglehold on distribution to boot. Webcomics, in theory sjould have erased this barrier... but things haven't really worked out the way we thought they would for long form comics online.

The closed systems at the top of the industry affect the rest of us on the lower levels.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

My contention is that "forced" is a pretty artificial notion when it comes to editorial choices in mainstream comics. Pretty much every decision is made by committee and goes for a mix of marketable but interesting premise.
Again, I don't think that's bad per se, all that matters in the end is the execution and how well it turns out.
From the outside, it seems impossible to me to determine how naturally the idea came to the editors/writers, and I don't think the creative process that yielded a particular storyline or character matters much. What does matter is when you read the book, how well it actually works, how well the writer sells it and makes you suspend your disbelief.

For example, one could easily argue the choice to have a teenage Muslim Ms. Marvel was totally artificial. Yet, when you read the actual book, it's absolutely great: there's that classic Spider-Man feel to it, where she juggles between school, family and her super heroic duties. The book works at a basic super hero level. But it does more, as it describes what being a Muslim teenage girl in 2014 in Jersey City can be like. It's obviously not a social documentary and doesn't claim to be the most accurate thing ever but at the end of the day, the writer has managed to convey what such a girl's life might be like, it feels less foreign to me. At the same time, there's probably a Muslim teen and/or a teenage girl somewhere who feels someone actually gets what their life can be like. These aren't huge steps but:
a) every little bit helps inclusion.
b) that was ultimately a great and original read.
c) more people might read comics and help the medium stay afloat.

All that derives from a very artificial choice at one point but the creative team totally sells it. And it's really all that matters. More gender, racial, religious or sexual orientation diversity isn't worse or better than time travel or expanded origin stories.

Also, being an outsider, feeling different or rejected is very much a part of these super hero stories DNA.


Except Bru's Winter Soldier series was pretty good and given what's going on in Original Sin, he has probably some very badass stuff in store for the future.

Never said it wasn't good, but that Fear Itself...ugh and it did make me think of the MGS4 ending of wtf when Cap meets Fury after its all over lol.

 

[Cyan]

Sad to see people questioning the creators' artistic choices purely based on their political beliefs.

 

[Verano]

No Mexicans as a marvel superhero....for shame...