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[Kinyou]

As someone else pointed out, yes, that grates. It's objectifying and irrelevant to the conversation. It reads to me like "hold up guys, everybody stop talking about what we're discussing for a second - we need to acknowledge the woman in the room and how I totally find her sexually attractive, because that's what's really important."

Even if it's not overt or explicitly annoying in a single incidence, "hot" women are subjected to it over and over again. It absolutely would be grating, anything in repetition would be.

And that ignores the lack of utility of said posts. What purpose do they serve?

So do you think that the thread about that magician is also problematic? Or what about that "hot prison guy" that exploded over facebook
And when you're going about usefulness of a post then you can also start to crack down on gif replys, puns and other stuff like that. Acknowledging that someone is attractive doesn't seem problematic to me. Only some of the forms it's done in.

 

[BlastProcessing]

I don't necessarily disagree with your broader point, but apparently the Millgram experiments were an absolute mess of coercive influences on the "guard" figures as well and I don't plan to use them as the basis for anything in the future

Yeah, I chose Milgram because they are the most well known and understood example. The subjects were certainly manipulated in an unethical way, but I think the fact that they were able to be manipulated at all is really the salient point here.

 

[Spinluck]

Calling out a sexist piece of shit using one of the favorite sexist terms of misogynists and implying that female genitalia is bad is probably not ideal.

So now we're going to pretend words have one meaning now huh? And clearly I have a hidden agenda against vaginas right?

 

[Mentok]

It's sad that it's 2014 and this is still happening. Yes, gaming at one point was a very small, niche circle that was predominantly male (the old stereotype of the guys with think glasses, pocket protectors and acne gathering in a parent's basement to play), but the industry has expanded to that of film and television. Despite this, it is still an industry where juvenile behavior is considered "part of the norm" from interviewers/journalists right down to the fans (see PewDiePie, his "rape" jokes and then look at how many people follow him). Compound that with the fact that the active community is dominantly online (where apparently all sense of moral compass goes out the window) and you have a problem that needs addressing.

I think it starts with the title "girl gamer". Why can't they just be "gamers"? Regardless of their number are they not a part of the community, or do they require the exclusion? It's not like we identify minority gamers or any other group, but the second you mention "girl gamer" some morons lose their minds. I'm not saying you'll get rid of the crazy ones, they'll always be there but we need to isolate from that as a community. Advancement through awareness. Just my 0.02.

Good article OP.

 

[Nostremitus]

Depending on the context. I certainly don't want to see any more "WOULD" posts in threads about women who killed their family or things like that.

Thanks. My only concern was that it would be a double standard. They have a way of generating the very types of behavior they could be meant to combat.

I'd think so. When you start writing poetry about licking said girl's thighs, THEN maybe you go back to the drawing board.

I was making sure I was understanding the comment correctly.

 

[Gestault]

So, "this girl is soo hot" is ok?

If that's what you think was the intent behind that particular explanation, I welcome you to try it out and gauge the reaction. Or you could be a bit more clever about it and just assume that treating subjects respectfully/responsibly, as you should on any discussion forum, would probably make the most sense.

For OT discussions, prurient reactions (especially to public figures) aren't something I think there's a whole lot of reason for. If you want affirmation and validation for that stuff, there are other places to get into it.

 

[jackal27]

Would you say it...triggered a response in you?

Yeah, I would. I think trigger warnings can be overused sometimes, but man this needed one for sure. I just can't understand this for the life of me. Like, everyday sexism stuff? Sure. I struggle with that myself. But the blatant harassment and attacks are just inhuman.

I think that sometimes we look at some of the outspoken women in the game industry and sort of wonder why they come off as so harsh or cold, well when you deal with crap like this on a regular basis, I can understand why. Really sad.

Also, just to be clear, I am all about ladies playing/making games. More diversity in creators and players means more diversity in creations and things to play.

 

[E92 M3]

I think it's most important for GAF to be a forum where people can speak their minds freely as long as it's civil and not trolling. The mods need control that balance, and everything will be fine. Like Fox News P) everything needs to be fair and balanced. Thankfully, we have a good group of moderators that don't ban with an agenda.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think that sometimes we look at some of the outspoken women in the game industry and sort of wonder why they come off as so harsh or cold, well when you deal with crap like this on a regular basis, I can understand why. Really sad.

Yeah, this was kind of a big realization for me, oh, three years back or so.

 

[The Librarian]

I buy games with sexualized women. Because I enjoy good games that also happen to have sexualized women. I'm glad that games with sexualized women are made because it suits my tastes.

This is more of a problem than you buying games that have sexualized women. Obviously you can enjoy a game despite it having a Cortana or something, but saying stuff like this is part of the culture that can lead towards an environment where women are more harassed than men.

 

[besada]

Thanks. My only concern was that it would be a double standard. They have a way of generating the very types of behavior they could be meant to combat.

If our gay or female community responds to pictures of men by discussing the intimate details of how they want to fuck him, or how much of his feces they'll eat (not making that up), I'll gladly ban them, too.

 

[Krejlooc]

So do you think that the thread about that magician is also problematic? Or what about that "hot prison guy" that exploded over facebook
And when you're going about usefulness of a post then you can also start to crack down on gif replys, puns and other stuff like that. Acknowledging that someone is attractive doesn't seem problematic to me. Only some of the forms it's done in.

This seems like a gotcha post, but yes, I find the examples you posted grating as well. However, the examples you are posting are much less frequent than the subjecation women go through.

 

[cm osi]

I buy games with sexualized women. Because I enjoy good games that also happen to have sexualized women. I'm glad that games with sexualized women are made because it suits my tastes.

I don't condone threats and harassment. I find that to be completely unnecessary to the process of creating the types of games that I enjoy.

Is that as far as you've gotten? "stop buying games made by these horrible people"? How am I to know if the people who created a game with a sexualized (in someone's opinion) woman are actually "horrible people"? How am I to know that the people who made some squeaky clean, absolutely-no-sexualized-women-here kind of game aren't equally horrible people?

Is there a database somewhere on the internet that lists all games and notes the ones that are made by 'horrible people'? If not, can we make one? With detailed profiles of all the people who worked on each game.
Then we can work on a database of all the horrible people who like sexualized characters in games.

tl?:dr? - In short, I don't feel that sexualized characters, (in games, books, movies, etc) are wrong. And I don't think that anyone who makes a game with a sexualized character in it is a 'horrible person'. And I don't think that people who enjoy sexualized characters in any media are automatically 'horrible people'. Obviously.

man, i didn't see that post. why did you have to quote it? damn.

 

[Brakke]

So, "this girl is soo hot" is ok?

The pertinent question is: is it valuable?

 

[Kinyou]

This seems like a gotcha post, but yes, I find the examples you posted grating as well. However, the examples you are posting are much less frequent than the subjecation women go through.

Didn't really mean to "catch you". Just seems like we have simply differing views on what's still acceptable and what isn't.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is more of a problem than you buying games that have sexualized women. Obviously you can enjoy a game despite it having a Cortana or something, but saying stuff like this is part of the culture that can lead towards an environment where women are more harassed than men.

Yeah, like I said on the last page I'm convinced that so many of these issues stem from the underpinnings of how we treat sex as a society, including in our media. Again, its the alienation that comes with treating sex as something to be acquired, objectifying the other person in the interaction.

 

[EricDiesel]

It's disgusting that this happens. It's even more disgusting how often I see these sexist / misogynistic / oppressive attitudes expressed in the gaming community on twitter, in Giant Bomb comment sections, and even on NeoGAF itself. It's shameful and needs to change.

I feel I need to do better calling out this garbage when I see it. I hope others in this thread feel the same.

 

[APF]

I don't always pass this, but I think a good question to ask when questioning the appropriateness of a post is, "does this add to the conversation?" Confirming to the group that you find a person attractive rarely actually contributes anything.

 

[J10]

That is an unbelievable statistic, considering the amount of abuse I've experienced as a hard core male gamer that would be just too fucking much no question about it. Then again I hold some reservation with these studies, because the environment can change drastically depending on the genre, platform, age group and so on.

I do believe people should be forced to register their real names and be held responsible for their actions even if in game they were allowed to use a nick.

Your personal anecdotes mean nothing against statistics.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't always pass this, but I think a good question to ask when questioning the appropriateness of a post is, "does this add to the conversation?" Confirming to the group that you find a person attractive rarely actually contributes anything.

I mean, that's partially it, but heaven knows I've made my fair share of empty, contentless reaction posts to various threads or pieces of news. The real problem isn't only that there's no real substance, its that it also then creates an environment that a group (women, in this case) find disturbing or uncomfortable

 

[Sai-kun]

If our gay or female community responds to pictures of men by discussing the intimate details of how they want to fuck him, or how much of his feces they'll eat (not making that up), I'll gladly ban them, too.

Yeah, we've had a couple posters who would detail every bit of their sex lives...and they didn't last.

 

[jackal27]

Yeah, like I said on the last page I'm convinced that so many of these issues stem from the underpinnings of how we treat sex as a society, including in our media. Again, its the alienation that comes with treating sex as something to be acquired, objectifying the other person in the interaction.

BOOM. Truth bombs dropped. How about we just stop objectifying and using people in general and start treating everybody like... you know... a person?

 

[Mentok]

If our gay or female community responds to pictures of men by discussing the intimate details of how they want to fuck him, or how much of his feces they'll eat (not making that up), I'll gladly ban them, too.

Umm what?! That's gotta be a benchmark for all-time low...or at least in the discussion. Man, some people (and I'm using "people" very lightly)....

 

[Nostremitus]

If our gay or female community responds to pictures of men by discussing the intimate details of how they want to fuck him, or how much of his feces they'll eat (not making that up), I'll gladly ban them, too.

I fully agree with that. I was questioning the simple "That person is hot" type of comments. I'm not arguing for objective treatment at all, just equal treatment. Basically, if it's not ok to say about one group, it's not ok to say about any group and vice versa.

I realize that blatant over the top nasty things are said but that's not what I'm asking about.

The most common statements I see go something like this.

Poster posts a story about an interview

Poster responds to said interview with " Wow, she's hot!" or Wow, he's a hottie!" or something like that without actually commenting on the issues discussed in the interview.

That's bannable, right?

 

[Deified Data]

It's subconscious. A lot of them don't even know they're doing it. Hence the discussion. I'm with you though. I work with mostly women who tell me what to do all day long, my boss is a woman and I have absolutely no problem taking criticism or advice from any of them.

Working in a library and I'm in the same boat - moreso, I'm the only male on staff. Yeah, I wouldn't last very long here if I had a problem with women.

 

[ShinMaruku]

I think that in the background of all this sea of negativity from people online is a symptom of how just now people are seeing how their world view is fucked and some of them just hone in on things where they have passion and heap out their hate and rage on the easiest targets.

Now this is in no way an excuse for those people, but I think this whole wave of negativity and rage is coming from people who just woke up to what society has wrought and since they have feelings on being helpless and hopeless they spew the hate on others. It's human nature. (Sometimes people are just shit)

 

[ICKE]

Your personal anecdotes mean nothing against statistics.

I understand that of course but that study was about unspecified chat rooms from eight years ago. How is anyone supposed to draw any conclusions from that regarding gaming culture and any abuse therein?

 

[Sadist]

That's some disturbing stuff right there.

I just can't understand why people would react the way they do. I really don't.

 

[Krejlooc]

Yeah, like I said on the last page I'm convinced that so many of these issues stem from the underpinnings of how we treat sex as a society, including in our media. Again, its the alienation that comes with treating sex as something to be acquired, objectifying the other person in the interaction.

Also part of the problem is that the woman being pointed out as sexualised may often being the only woman in the area when speaking about video games. in that case the sexualization is not only objectifying but also isolating. nobody likes to be singled out over and over again. it's detrimental to teamwork and induces a hostile environment.

 

[Jobbs]

I fully agree with that. I was questioning the simple "That person is hot" type of comments. I'm not arguing for objective treatment at all, just equal treatment. Basically, if it's not ok to say about one group, it's not ok to say about any group and vice versa.

I realize that blatant over the top nasty things are said but that's not what I'm asking about.

The most common statements I see go something like this.

Poster posts a story about an interview

Poster responds to said interview with " Wow, she's hot!" or Wow, he's a hottie!" or something like that without actually commenting on the issues discussed in the interview.

That's bannable, right?

before today I'd say "probably no, if that's as far as it goes" but after reading this thread, my feminist side is all puffed up and I kinda think maybe it should be. it contributes nothing to the topic at hand and invites further derailment + makes people uncomfortable.

 

[Suzushiiro]

I buy games with sexualized women. Because I enjoy good games that also happen to have sexualized women. I'm glad that games with sexualized women are made because it suits my tastes.

I don't condone threats and harassment. I find that to be completely unnecessary to the process of creating the types of games that I enjoy.

Is that as far as you've gotten? "stop buying games made by these horrible people"? How am I to know if the people who created a game with a sexualized (in someone's opinion) woman are actually "horrible people"? How am I to know that the people who made some squeaky clean, absolutely-no-sexualized-women-here kind of game aren't equally horrible people?

Is there a database somewhere on the internet that lists all games and notes the ones that are made by 'horrible people'? If not, can we make one? With detailed profiles of all the people who worked on each game.
Then we can work on a database of all the horrible people who like sexualized characters in games.

tl?:dr? - In short, I don't feel that sexualized characters, (in games, books, movies, etc) are wrong. And I don't think that anyone who makes a game with a sexualized character in it is a 'horrible person'. And I don't think that people who enjoy sexualized characters in any media are automatically 'horrible people'. Obviously.

Yeah, games like Dragon's Crown and Dead or Alive are fine- the idea that games like those encourages real misogyny against real women is as ridiculous as the idea that violence in video games encourages violence against real people. Even more ridiculous, actually, since to my knowledge very few games that sell themselves with sexy women reward you for actually doing anything misogynist towards said women, whereas they do reward you for committing acts of violence.

The real issue with sexualized characters in video games is that they're disproportionately women. What we need is more games that appeal to women(and gay men) with sexy men, not fewer games that appeal to men(and lesbians) with sexy women.

 

[Krejlooc]

I mean, that's partially it, but heaven knows I've made my fair share of empty, contentless reaction posts to various threads or pieces of news. The real problem isn't only that there's no real substance, offensivet it also then creates an environment that a group (women, in this case) find disturbing or uncomfortable

everybody stays off topic once in awhile, it's human nature and that's why the mods don't want to ban everyone who does it. the end result would be a graveyard. however there needs to be a defined line, and I think everyone can agree that offensive post should cross it.

 

[besada]

Poster responds to said interview with " Wow, she's hot!" or Wow, he's a hottie!" or something like that without actually commenting on the issues discussed in the interview.

That's bannable, right?

Yup. If for no other reason than it adds nothing to the conversation. APF made a great point upthread. When deciding to post the thing you just typed into the box, consider -- Am I bringing something useful to the conversation? If the answer to that is no, you should consider not posting.

While I tend to be more lenient in non-serious topics, no one likes those posts. They increase the signal to noise ratio and force us to scroll past a bunch of useless posts to see the actual discussion.

 

[Beefy]

If you are black,white, asian, latino, a woman, a guy, a lesbian, a gay, fat, thin or deemed as ugly etc. There will always be some one in this world that feels it right to say nasty shit to you. It's the way the world is and always will be which is a shame. We are all humans at the end of the day and just because we are all different be it race or looks wise we shouldn't be disrespected or insulted. We all deserve to be treated with respect(until people prove they don't deserve it).

It shouldn't be right in the gaming world or the world as a whole to say crap like this.

 

[deltatheta]

I understand that of course but that study was about unspecified chat rooms from eight years ago. How is anyone supposed to draw any conclusions from that regarding gaming culture and any abuse therein?

I think the problem is that you're comparing your personal experience in a very specific part of the internet to the general experience of women on the internet.

I'm sure you can find somewhere on the internet where men get harassed more than women. That doesn't mean that in general the rates are comparable.

 

[2MF]

Mass headcount shortages on certain departments (like engineering).

Either that or massively downgraded hiring standards.

 

[Krejlooc]

Umm what?! That's gotta be a benchmark for all-time low...or at least in the discussion. Man, some people (and I'm using "people" very lightly)....

man I'm incredibly liberal sexually, post like this don't help. everybody has a fetish, nobody chooses theirs. posts like this are literally dehumanizing. ima find eating feces to be disgusting, but im not about to go and indignify a human being for something beyond their control. that's not to stay that should be posting about eating feces, but it's not our right to go and attack them for it.

 

[The Librarian]

Yup. If for no other reason than it adds nothing to the conversation. APF made a great point upthread. When deciding to post the thing you just typed into the box, consider -- Am I bringing something useful to the conversation? If the answer to that is no, you should consider not posting.

While I tend to be more lenient in non-serious topics, no one likes those posts. They increase the signal to noise ratio and force us to scroll past a bunch of useless posts to see the actual discussion.

Somewhat unrelated, but another way I can feel isolated on NeoGAF – or rather, when NeoGAF can feel too much like a boys' club – is when some new, awesome feature of a game is announced and you get several posts saying, "This makes me erect" or "This makes me so hard."

I'm just reading the thread thinking to myself, "Okay...I don't...need...to know that."

 

[InsaneZero]

Video games as a whole historically had young males as its primary demographic. For many large publishers, this is still very much the case. Considering that, it's not at all unrealistic to believe that the video gaming industry also grew up to be male-dominated, leading into this vicious cycle of the audience influencing the industry and vice versa.

Realistically speaking, trying to break that cycle from within the gaming industry is going to be extremely difficult. People don't like it when unfamiliar faces start entering their established sandcastle. The gaming industry needs to open up to more demographics so that when women actually do enter the workforce they won't be perceived as an unusual occurrence. I have hopes that the breakthrough that mobile games are making into this new audience would encourage new blood into this industry, though.

 

[frequency]

For me, it's not just about exceptionally crass statements. It is just the excess of it that acts as a constant reminder that I'm the odd one out. That I don't belong.

Maybe it's just me but when I'm seeing a thread about for example Smash character announcements. Like Palutena. I go in thinking, "Oh hey, I'm interested in both Smash and Kid Icarus. Maybe I can find some people to talk to about that."

But I go in and what I see is pages of people talking about whether Palutena wears panties.

So I become sad and just leave with the reminder that the "boys club" is real.

 

[Deleted member 47027]

For me, it's not just about exceptionally crass statements. It is just the excess of it that acts as a constant reminder that I'm the odd one out. That I don't belong.

Maybe it's just me but when I'm seeing a thread about for example Smash character announcements. Like Palutena. I go in thinking, "Oh hey, I'm interested in both Smash and Kid Icarus. Maybe I can find some people to talk to about that."

But I go in and what I see is pages of people talking about whether Palutena wears panties.

So I become sad and just leave with the reminder that the "boys club" is real.

They do that shit with Peach too. It's unsettling as fuck.

 

[SenorArdilla]

While it is anecdotal, the sheer frequency at which this reports appear raises a lot of question. But anecdotes are anecdotes.

 

[DrXym]

I don't find this surprising. Lots of gamers are immature sociopaths and assorted losers. Amongst the millions of gamers there are bound to be some who stalk people, particularly women. Companies should back up employees who receive threats in email or social media do everything in their power to identify and ban these people. In some countries it would even qualify as a crime and the likes of Twitter, Google etc. would have no trouble giving up IP address for a criminal complaint.

 

[Htown]

I understand that of course but that study was about unspecified chat rooms from eight years ago. How is anyone supposed to draw any conclusions from that regarding gaming culture and any abuse therein?

Okay, so what exactly would it take for you to believe there is a problem?

 

[ShinMaruku]

Video games as a whole historically had young males as its primary demographic. For many large publishers, this is still very much the case. Considering that, it's not at all unrealistic to believe that the video gaming industry also grew up to be male-dominated, leading into this vicious cycle of the audience influencing the industry and vice versa.

Realistically speaking, trying to break that cycle from within the gaming industry is going to be extremely difficult. People don't like it when unfamiliar faces start entering their established sandcastle. The gaming industry needs to open up to more demographics so that when women actually do enter the workforce they won't be perceived as an unusual occurrence. I have hopes that the breakthrough that mobile games are making into this new audience would encourage new blood into this industry, though.

That is a very hard cycle to crack. You'd have to change culture and economy to get more varied people into these creative jobs. It's not quite vogue to have a woman designer by culture and by education. These things need to change. Matter of fact if you fix some of the issues in society some of the hate will go down too. Some of these hateful people you see feel truly powerless and lash out. (Mind you they are complicit in their 'helplessness' but that is a another issue)

 

[Nostremitus]

Yup. If for no other reason than it adds nothing to the conversation. APF made a great point upthread. When deciding to post the thing you just typed into the box, consider -- Am I bringing something useful to the conversation? If the answer to that is no, you should consider not posting.

While I tend to be more lenient in non-serious topics, no one likes those posts. They increase the signal to noise ratio and force us to scroll past a bunch of useless posts to see the actual discussion.

Thanks, I could've explained my stance and reasoning for the original question in a more complete manner. Sorry about that.

If that's what you think was the intent behind that particular explanation, I welcome you to try it out and gauge the reaction. Or you could be a bit more clever about it and just assume that treating subjects respectfully/responsibly, as you should on any discussion forum, would probably make the most sense.

For OT discussions, prurient reactions (especially to public figures) aren't something I think there's a whole lot of reason for. If you want affirmation and validation for that stuff, there are other places to get into it.

I was asking because I firmly believe those types of responses aren't ok. The same should be said for "that guy is soo hot" comments as well. There's really no place for those types of comments regardless of the subject's gender.

before today I'd say "probably no, if that's as far as it goes" but after reading this thread, my feminist side is all puffed up and I kinda think maybe it should be. it contributes nothing to the topic at hand and invites further derailment + makes people uncomfortable.

That was my point in asking the original question.

 

[Krejlooc]

Also part of the problem is that the woman being pointed out as sexualised may often being the only woman in the area when speaking about video games. in that case the sexualization is not only objectifying but also isolating. nobody likes to be singled out over and over again. it's detrimental to teamwork and induces a hostile environment.

Somewhat unrelated, but another way I can feel isolated on NeoGAF – or rather, when NeoGAF can feel too much like a boys' club – is when some new, awesome feature of a game is announced and you get several posts saying, "This makes me erect" or "This makes me so hard."

I'm just reading the thread thinking to myself, "Okay...I don't...need...to know that."

For me, it's not just about exceptionally crass statements. It is just the excess of it that acts as a constant reminder that I'm the odd one out. That I don't belong.

Maybe it's just me but when I'm seeing a thread about for example Smash character announcements. Like Palutena. I go in thinking, "Oh hey, I'm interested in both Smash and Kid Icarus. Maybe I can find some people to talk to about that."

But I go in and what I see is pages of people talking about whether Palutena wears panties.

So I become sad and just leave with the reminder that the "boys club" is real.

Proof for those who doubt.

 

[licktheenvelope]

This is more of a problem than you buying games that have sexualized women. Obviously you can enjoy a game despite it having a Cortana or something, but saying stuff like this is part of the culture that can lead towards an environment where women are more harassed than men.

I don't want to be a major party pooper but if we're just talking about sexual advances women will always be "more harassed" than men...

As i've pointed out in this type of conversation before, i'm a male and i've been 'hit on' by more gay men than straight women in my life, by a large margine.

Difference is in the hormone make-up of the sexes.

 

[Jobbs]

Somewhat unrelated, but another way I can feel isolated on NeoGAF – or rather, when NeoGAF can feel too much like a boys' club – is when some new, awesome feature of a game is announced and you get several posts saying, "This makes me erect" or "This makes me so hard."

I'm just reading the thread thinking to myself, "Okay...I don't...need...to know that."

I think this type of language may be something I've engaged in before on the forums, but knowing that it makes anyone uncomfortable I'll be more considerate in the future when posting. If it makes you feel any better, I think this really is an example of guys just being dumb and being truly unaware that they're offending anyone.

incidentally, have you ever watched Dexter? Deb, a female character on the show, talks like this all the time. XD

 

[Beefy]

For me, it's not just about exceptionally crass statements. It is just the excess of it that acts as a constant reminder that I'm the odd one out. That I don't belong.

Maybe it's just me but when I'm seeing a thread about for example Smash character announcements. Like Palutena. I go in thinking, "Oh hey, I'm interested in both Smash and Kid Icarus. Maybe I can find some people to talk to about that."

But I go in and what I see is pages of people talking about whether Palutena wears panties.

So I become sad and just leave with the reminder that the "boys club" is real.

It's not really a "boys club" it's just like minded people that talk about that stuff. Not all guys are like that. The same can be said about the whole "all blondes are dumb" rubbish. Both are just labels that shouldn't really be used.